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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans



  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 764
    Good luck with your Ody. I still think it's the best vehicle on the planet. My wife is pushing for a CUV because she claims the Ody makes her "feel old". If the PAX tires hold up, I'll be trading it in when the "cash for clunkers" hangover hits in three months or so.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    This is for anyone who opted out and considering small action claim.

    I am a lawyer but this is only general suggestions, not specific to any one individual or claim.

    First, it is always best to get advice from a lawyer in your jurisdiction. Laws vary in each state, and a lawyer can explain what law is applicable to your claim, whether you have a good case, how best to pursue it, etc.

    For most depax claims, you will be near or well within the small claims limit. That means in most instances your case will be heard informally by a judge (see my prior posting on this subject). However, its very important to have your legal argument well prepared. That means you can't just say Honda and Michelin ripped me off, or that pax is scam.

    When I file my small claim in the future, I will argue that Honda/Michelin violated my state's consumer protection statute by failing to disclose material (meaning important) facts about the pax system, including cost of replacement and low-mile tread wear. Every state has a consumer protection statute, just google that term and your state.

    That search will also likely tell you about consumer protection groups in your state. They may be able to give you guidance in how to prepare your case.

    In most states discovery is not allowed in small claims. If your state allows discovery, you want to ask Honda/Michelin to produce all documents and information that discuss pax cost and limitations. Problem is that for a small case judge will likely limit what you can ask for. I think it would be helpful to have Honda/Michelin produce the sales and marketing material on pax during the year you purchased your vehicle. We know it says nothing about the well-documented issue on cost and treadwear. You can also print out info from the internet, which a judge may or may not allow. Generally, a judge will be more open to credible sources (for example, a trade journal article on pax problems, v. ranting by a customer on this board).

    On costs if you lose, generally loser does not pay in the US especially for smaller claims (which is a big subject on tort reform). HOWEVER, laws vary by state so before you file, make sure to check with the court clerk and ask if losing party pays costs. If they refuse to answer, get legal advice on that within your state.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I'm at 38,000 miles along with 3 years of trouble-free driving and just replaced my PAX tires with a new set for $1,263. This should provide me with another 3 years of driving and then I will trade out the van. I still don't understand how some people only get 20,000 miles out of these tires, poor gas mileage and complain of a bad ride. I have had none of these issues or complaints.
  • I have bought a set of wheels from a 2009 Acura TL for my 2006 Odyssey Touring. Which lug nuts do I buy, the ones for the Acura wheels (90304-TK4-A01) or the ones for the later year (08-09) Odyssey (90304-SJA-A91)? Thanks for any help.
  • Thank you for this information -- very good to keep at hand.
  • So far we're having the same experience as chirp. We're at 24K on an '07 with nearly 50% of the wear left. No troubles, good mileage, great ride, etc. Peace of mind of not trying to change a tire on Chicago's expressways are worth it for us.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    You should have no trouble getting to 40K miles. I still had room to the wear bars, but winter is coming and decided to switch them out now. Keep the pressure up at 37 or so and they ride and wear perfectly. I'm in Chicago as well and totally concur with your statement. This van has also taken two 3,500 mile round trips to the East coast and onto the island of Manhatten :)
  • Apologies for this HUGE delay in response....never got the Spare tire installed, although this is something I can going to schedule. Back tires were replaced Brand New by dealer on August pickup and we went to NJ shore with no problem. Front 2 tires will need replacing at some point...keeing an eye on them. I will keep my eye on tire pressue around 36 psi - as I think that's good. I will get the tire rotates every 6,000 miles -- we are not heavy drivers.... I just love Honda Odyssee -- it's our 4th one, but our FIRST Touring - so a little nervous with the whole PAX crisis you read on everyone's forum...scarey to say the least.

    Thank you again.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 764
    My latest PAX tires are almost gone at 27K miles. If I get the right number for the van, it's gone this week. It sounds silly, but I refuse to pay $12-1500 for tires every other year. The Ody holds its value so well, that it looks like it will cost me less than $400 month again (this is our fourth).
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    We are at 64K miles on our 2006 Ody Touring and our 3rd set of PAX. Replaced the first set at 31K and the 2nd set at 33K miles so our wear has been fairly consistent. I also rotate regularly so all four tires showed fairly even wear. Bumped up psi to the 35~37 range for the 2nd set. Cost to replace was $1,250 plus tax. This is our last set of PAX as the van will be traded prior to hitting 85K. I appreciate the techology but Michelin never delivered with enough support or availability, and the cost to replace a set is about $500 too high to make the business case. Consequently, as others have suggested, PAX has gone the way of TRX.
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    Forget the PAX tires, go with a set of EX wheels. Several dealers are offering a package deal that includes the TPMS. We did about 2 years ago and have had zero problems. For that matter, Tirerack offers several alternatives as well.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 764
    After owning four Odysseys in the last 8 years, I finally had all I could stand with the PAX debacle. When I took my 07 touring in for a few minor repairs, the technician checked out the whole van--he reported back that my PAX tires might last another 2000 miles if I was lucky (current odometer = 27000). I got 35k miles out of my last set of PAX, so this was a bit of a surprise. I changed the oil and rotated the tires religiously at 5000 miles and kept tire pressure constant. The dealer's price to replace my PAX tires would be $1434 plus tax ($90). So, I traded the van for a Mazda CX-9. I still think the Odyssey is the best family vehicle ever sold in this country, but Honda really let us down by not standing behind PAX.
  • After reading every message on this forum for a couple years and fretting about my PAX tires, I am finally PAX free. I have a 2006 and went with 2009 Acura TL wheels and BF Goodrich Long Trail T/A Touring 235/60/17. I bought new TPMS and they reset just fine. A special THANK YOU to everyone that has taken the time to post all the information on this forum. It made my decision a lot easier.
  • I am sure the question has been discussed at length but was not able to really find an answer in the forum. SO here it comes again.
    I have a 07’ Sienna Limited AWD (Purchased with 7,000 miles in 2008). the van has 23k miles on the van and same on the tires) I completely blew it on the rotating tire schedule (I learned my lesson). I now have two shot front RFT OEM tires and 2 pretty good rear tires with tons of tread.
    I am having trouble deciding my next move. I have visited 3 tire stores to get some advice

    Costco they don’t do run flats but could put on 4 nice all season Michelins for $600+.
    Les Schwab who advised only run flats and only 4 tires at $1,000.

    Discount Tires, can do 2 run flats and rotate the used RFT to the front and put new ones in the back (around $400.
    Is this a really bad Idea or just "not ideal"

    I am hoping folks using this forum have some experience in this give me your two cents as far as moving forward.
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    Just how shot are the fronts with only 7K on them? That's usually the time to rotate them accordign to most owner's manuals. I'd rotate them - the fronts take most of the abuse - and just watch it on wet roads if the tread is gone. Again, I can't believe the tread is shot at 7k.

    Check your tire pressure weekly. Low pressure is your enemy. Check for uneven wear, this would idicate an alignment problem.

    If you have to replace them, I'd probably opt for the run flats since you can have them repaired at most tire shops. Question, do you have a jack, tools, and a spare? If so, then going with less costly conventional tires is an option too. But $400 for 2 tires out the door is about the norm these days.
  • Hi Don,
    I will probably end up PAX free in the not too distant much did the Acura wheels and BF tires run - all linstalled? Curious. And who did it for you? Honda Dealer, someone else? I own my Odyssey.
    Many thanks,
  • Sorry if I gave the impression that the tires had just 7k on them. they have 23K on them and only one rotation early on.
  • Hi Katonah. I bought the wheels on ebay, they were new take-offs from a Acura dealer. It so happened they were sold by a dealer in Kansas City and I live nearby so I picked them up, saved shipping but had to pay tax, total was $573.00. I paid just under $600.00 for the tires, including road hazard and life time balance. I wanted to buy Kumho Road Venture APT KL51 which were cheaper and rated higher on tirerack, but tire shop was having problems getting them ordered and am going on a long trip next week. I also bought new TPMS on ebay for $130.00, new lug nuts, spare wheel and spare hardware from Honda $113.00 and spare tire from tirerack $137.49. So looks like a total of $1,553.49. Just got the tires so too soon to judge them, they do seem to be quiter and handle well and the wheels look great.

    As for who installed them, Gene's Tire in Liberty, Mo. I had kind of a hard time finding someone to work with me, everyone was afraid of Honda lawsuits, including Gene's at first. I was hesitant to buy them from tirerack because their local installers here were either expensive or seemed to be incompetent. Anyway, I am just glad this is finally over.

  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 849
    With AWD it may not be good idea to replace only 2 tires. Check manual what Toyota says about maximum circumference difference. For example Subaru advises that all tires should be within .25" with each other's circimference.

    You can go Go Flat tires but are you ready to handle flat tire situation without spare. Do you plan to buy spare tire along with regular tires.

  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    Hi Rareair:

    I missed that nugget of info....23k, no rotation....could be a problem, but it depends on just how bad they are. You need an honest tire tech to advise you. My other comments still stand.

    Good luck!
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    Just replaced Pax on our 2007 Touring w new wheels from a 2009 Pilot. The master indicator says tire pressure ok, but when I select info to see individual pressure in each tire, front driver says 36 psi, other three are flat lined, no psi indicated. Restarted several times, drove aobut 10 miles, no change.

    How can it indicate tire pressure ok with readings from only one of them ? thanks much.
  • mixa1mixa1 Posts: 4
    I got screwed the second time: without too much discussion judge dismissed my small claims against local Honda dealership. When I argued that Honda dealership violated my state's consumer protection statute by failing to disclose important facts about the pax system the judge, without any help from Honda's counsel, stated:
    a. The dealership does not have to disclose anything unless they are doing some PR campaign and do it in good will;
    b. They didn't fail to disclose because the information was most likely available on the Internet;
    c. This particular statute is usually applied to used cars and not to a standard features on the new cars.
    I can appeal within one week with $500 bond. Any suggestions?
  • DEPAXED VAN!! YAY!!! :)
    After many headaches and hundreds of dollars spent on tires and years of dealing with the tires, we finally got fed up with the JUNK PAX tires, that we all got sold after buying the VAN for almost $40K. (you would expect at least a good set of tires)

    Bought some RIMs from a local tire dealer, with the following Specs:
    RIMS: 17" Alloy's with Offset: +42mm, Bolt Pattern: 5-120

    Tires: hankook optimo h727 225/60R17 80,000 mile tires

    Removed the tires sensor's (I cut the tires felt good)

    Inflated the tires with nitrogen at 35psi Front and 37psi Rear.

    Van rides and turns like is on rails, no more harsh ride, no more weird vibrations from the tires getting off balance, because of the gel pax.

    Very Happy Camper!!!!!

    PS: still waiting for Michelin to refund us some kind of $ for all the money we spent on crappy tires.

    Also having a hard time finding the PAX APPROVED SPARE TIRE KIT see link:

    I was told to call this number to order 1800-999-1009, I can't believe they want $250 for a stupid spare donut tire. Honda/Michelin is only paying for $110 on the Class action Suit settlement I think that's BS.

    I will report when I get the Spare tire
  • Got to a junk yard and buy the spare out of an EX or LX model. The mounting kit for the spare tire well from Honda is less than $10 bucks.

    I installed a set of standard EX wheels on my Ody, new Touring TPMS sensors...did it for less than $700. Found a spare in the junk yard for $20. All you need is the correct spare tire size, this is standard size.

    Good luck and welcome to the de-Pax club!
  • As the deadline draws near to submit our claim forms for the absurd class action settlement, has ANYONE had success taking Honda/Michelin to small claims court to get remibursed for the total replacement cost to "DePax" your Odyssey?

    If so, please provide details as to what you presented to the judge and how much money you received from Honda/Michelin.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,194
    We were looking at a new Odyssey Touring when it first came out (in 2006?). We needed a Touring because my wife is short and wanted the adjustable pedals. Then I became aware of the PAX tires and got cold feet. I envisioned a limited availability tire that I would have to pay a fortune for, or pay to change not only tires but wheels as well. I was worried these tires would not take off in the market and would end up "orphaned". I ended up deferring the new car purchase and avoiding the Honda. Honda lost a high-end van sale to us because of those tires.

    Now I see that my fears were pretty spot on. Sorry to all of you, best of luck in dePAXing.

    BTW, we bought a Mazda 5 (microvan). Less room inside, but barely half the price and a blast to drive! Then we bought a 2004 Ody used. Both vehicles for about the price of the Touring + DePAX!
  • Please don't read us wrong, the Odyssey is a great vehicle, I think most of us would purchase one again. As everything in life there is a time where a van is handy, but I'm sure in a few years, our kids will be gone to college and driving their own cars, so fo the time being I will enjoy our DE-PAXED van and may be one day not too far away I can get my dream Infinity M35.

    Happy Holidays to all!!
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 764
    We owned four Odys since 2001. They were fantastic vehicles but we traded the two Tourings when the PAX tires wore out. In one case, that was at 35k and in the other it was only 27k. The best part was that the resale value was so high that it really didn't hurt too bad. We've got a Mazda CX-9 now and miss the Odys utility.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,194
    Please don't read us wrong, the Odyssey is a great vehicle, I think most of us would purchase one again. As everything in life there is a time where a van is handy, but I'm sure in a few years, our kids will be gone to college and driving their own cars, so fo the time being I will enjoy our DE-PAXED van and may be one day not too far away I can get my dream Infinity M35.

    Don't read me wrong, as I indicated we ended up buying a new Mazda 5 for about $23K and then a used 2004 Ody for about $18K. So for about $41K we purchased TWO cars, including the previous model Ody, that we would have paid for the original Touring we were looking at -- for about the same price.

    We really like the 04 Ody but are surprised at how tinny it is compared to our previous Mercury Villager. But we did avoid the whole PAX situation. And my 17yo daughter now drives the Mazda.
  • I have run flats on my 2005 Sienna. Getting ready to put my 3rd set of tires on at 60,000 miles. After reading all the negative comments, I'm ready to dump the AWDs in favor of conventional tires, but not sure about some details: Can I still use conv. on an AWD model? Do I need to buy new wheels? Will the conv. tires cause problems with the tire pressure sensor system? How does altering the tire system affect resale (if I decide to sell/trade-in, is the lack of a spare going to destroy the value?)
    Thanks much!
  • The run-flat tires on Siennas are not like the PAX run-flats that are the subject of this forum. Something entirely different.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    Where do you live that you would purchase an all wheel drive van to begin with? Are you in a heavy snow belt that requires a good all season tire?
    As has been stated, PAX and run flats are miles apart and you should be able to mount up a go-flat tire onto your existing rims with little issue. You WILL need to get a spare. This is a five year old van with 60K on it already and you are concerned about resale?
  • Hi Chirp, Thanks for the info.
    Yes, Minnesota does get some snow in the winter and I thought it might be a prudent investment for my wife and kids to have the AWD...
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    No Ody owners can go to small claims court unless you opted out of the class action and gave notice to lawyers for Honda, Michelin and plaintiffs within the deadline. If you're asking now and didn't opt out, you're most likely stuck with the settlement. I opted out and preparing my lawsuit to file soon.
  • jac1304jac1304 Posts: 33
    On the 2011 Toyota Sienna AWD comes with run flats, what is difference between this and Honda's system? Also, can you get snow tires that are run flat.

  • The run-flat tires that Toyota and most other auto manufacturers use have short, stiff, sidewalls that can carry the weight of the vehicle for a while without air in the tires.

    The Michelin PAX tires that Honda uses have a cage on the rim inside the tire that supports the tire when the air is lost. Special rims and tire mounting equipment is required to get the tires on and off the rims over the cage. Special rims and mounting equipment + low volume product = big bucks for replacing the tires. And the rubber compound that is used for the PAX tires is such that many users wear the tires out quickly.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I would just get a good all season tire then that is recommended by your tire guys or online at Tirerack and a spare from a auto recycling business(junkyard) or Toyota dealer. Changing out the PAX on the Odyssey is a much more complicated and costly process, so be glad you aren't in that boat. :)
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    For our depax I got Continental ContiPro Contact all seasons. 80K mile treadwear warranty, about $110 each plus install. They may be running a rebate again. I have no connection to Continental other than being a big fan of their tires. On our Ody they were awesome this winter during the blizzard in Maryland. They're not snow tires but on regular snow grip was about as good as you can get for all seasons.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 764
    Not to bore anyone here, but just in case anyone from Honda ever checks this forum: I traded in my fourth and LAST Odyssey following the PAX settlement. Although I think the Ody is the best vehicle in the world for a family, the settlement that paid lawyers and did absolutely nothing for loyal customers was the last straw for me.

    I owned four Odysseys from 2001-2009 and two of them were PAX equipped. I bought the first one without knowing about the problems with PAX and I bought the second because I was confident that Honda would do the right thing. Shame on you Honda.

    So, Honda won't have the opportunity to replace one of my four cars every year...
  • For years, I've been watching everyone complain about run flat tires on Sienna vans. I've got 144,000 miles on my 2004 AWD sienna and I'm just getting ready to put on my third set of tires, so I'm getting almost 50,000 miles out of a set. I'm using original equipment Bridgestones on mine. Maybe I'm just lucky! Now there have been a couple of times that I took my van to a Firestone store for an oil change and he wanted me to buy new tires. I looked at the tread and if it was summer, I said I'd wait until winter.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I'm like you, Mr. Sonshine only I have the ODY with PAX. I got close to 40,000 on my first set of Pax with local and long vacation mileage. I am on my second set and have never had an issue. I now have a spare that has been partially paid by the Honda/PAX settlement for a some greater peace of mind, I guess :)
  • I am sad right along with you--we have an Acura RL 2006--bought as a dealer demo at a price we thought was wonderful. The PAX tires have lasted almost to 50,000mi.--more than most PAX owners experience--but I shudder at the availability and the cost should I need a replacement at some point--flat tire or worse...As fate would have it, we never had a flat...But we are nervous every time and everywhere we go--FORGET THESE PAX TIRES. We frequent America's Tire Co., and they told us that they have changed these out several times, no complaints, at an initial cost--new rims as well as tires--of around $1500--ouch, but new PAX--actually old PAX(no longer made by Michelin)will cost about $2000+ including installation/labor, and then, NO GUARANTEE ON the Math...
    So we opted to change to a regilar tire system, and they installed for about $1500. La di dah--they are the wrong rims, because the pretty cover on the calipers in front say ACURA, but they are being scraped because of the close tolerance, and THAT CAN"T BE SAFE.
    I'm so glad that I believe in prayer. Jim in Stockton, CA
  • Totally irrelevant to this forum. The run-flat tires used by Toyota on the Sienna are not the same as the Michelin PAX tires used on the Honda Odyssey Touring.
  • seanportseanport Posts: 3
    After going back and forth about 10 times I decided to keep my Pax tires on my 2007 Odyssey after getting 42,650 miles out of the first set...even after having to get the van aligned after 5,000 miles as the Pax shoulders were wearing out fast. My secret was rotations every 5,000 miles and keeping the tire pressure at 40-41 lbs in front and back. So, I went to a local dealer and got lucky as people drive all the way from Arizona to San Diego to get Pax tires as they charged me less than $1,100 for four tires installed, with tax. Now, that is not cheap by regular tire standards, but I plan on trading in the van in a year or two and will not have any issues with non-Pax tires on a vehicle that says it has Pax tires. I would never get another Pax vehicle on purpose, but these tires have been just fine for me, but a tad bit expensive as we all know. Personally, I have not had a flat tire in about 25 years and the last flat was on tires that were down to the steal belts. My wife likes the rims and as she works downtown and about 15 miles from home, I know that I will not get a call to rescue her in a bad neighborhood, a real concern for us. I know that the van would probably ride even better on some softer tires, but I do enjoy taking the curves with what is a very large family vehicle.
  • Your reply is exactly what I needed to hear.... I am following those same rules on my 2007 Odyssey and very happy so far.... so a little more a little more expesnive, but safety is worth it, i agree. I even have tire insurance just so I can be reimbursed if anything on the tire itself goes wrong....! Thank you.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I keep my PAX tires inflated at 38 psi (first set also) after hearing about the accelerated treadwear at the outside edge and had no issues with my first set and my second set is wearing perfectly so far. I should have 80,000 miles when these wear out and then will be trading the van.
  • aggie76aggie76 Posts: 266
    Good to hear that my process matches several others with increased inflation and regular rotations. Got 32k on the first set and at that same mileage now on this set that I had rotated yesterday. Sufficient tread still there for next 6 months or so and will likely sell/trade van on new vehicle as wife wants an AWD for next winter. The Ody has been good to us, but the PAX are a challenge on the snow/ice that we have for 6-7 months of the year here in northern MN.
  • So I went in for tire rotation and balance on my Pax tires...Honda found bent right wheel rim ($650!!!) BUT, when I bought van knowing all about the Pax angst, I took out the extra warranty for Tire AND wheel coverage (and other stuff was included). I did that for several reasons: 1) PAX system and horror stores; 2) I bought a 3-year lease turn in vehicle, so I was not maintaining previously; 3) Everything goes wrong after 3 years!!; 4) 1 set of new PAX was put on van, but older set was kept as not worn out enough for dealer to change out to all 4 new tires.
    Dealer said I probably damaged rim over a pot hole (yes, I live in NY) so no surprise. Road Hazard coverage covers it. ONLY caveat is I lay out $ first, and they reimburse. So far, the Honda parts manager and I fine-tune combed through ALL the small print, front and back. and we see no reason why I would not be reimbursed. He is putting all his prior-approval on it and because I am having it replaceda at a Honda dealership, it will most likely not encounter and obstacles if I tried to do this anywhere else. We'll see. The warranty last five years, I rotate tires, and so far so good. Treading is wearing well. I replace 2 at a time when needed. We have the tire and wheel warranty for 5 when that is done, I will depax out of them to Elbrus rims (17") IO5 and Kuhmo tires...all weather - about $90 a tire and rims are about $126, keeping same TPMS, and order new valve assemblies for the tires. I check all my technical questions and bounce EVERYTHING Honda tells me (take nothing for granted) at the College Hills Honda DePax helpd center!!
    You can go to their collegehills honda website and check all this out. Ask for PAUL in parts as he is the voice on the DIY video for depaxing, etc. GREAT guy and so smart beyond Honda in general.
    And lastly, before I take any trips, rotate and I'm ordering a spare PAX tire to keep with me at all times!

    Good luck and I'll be checking in....DePax free IS worry free for sure. It CAN be done.
  • zboaterzboater Posts: 17
    Lots of good reading here. Have a 2006 Touring and got 40K miles on first set of PAX, and only 20K miles on second set (even with regular tire rotation, balance, and constant air pressure). So while I cringed paying $1,100 for my second set, I thought they would last for 40K miles- now it is clear I made a mistake. We plan to keep the car for another 60K – 80K miles – so seems de-PAX is way to go. So after local Honda dealers gave me the brush off (amazing), I read all forums and talked to College Hills. A few questions for those that have done their de-PAX:

    1) Do the 16” or 17” wheels make any difference (in performance or speedometer readings)?
    2) I was going to stick with the 16” 9 spoke Honda wheels, but noticed someone also went with the 2009 Acura TL 17" wheels – any issues here? Any other wheel favorites?
    3) Seems like 50/50 on using old sensors vs. new.
    4) Any benefit to keeping old wheels/tires (as option) for resale down the road – do not seem to be worth anything on ebay?
    5) Any other tips/tricks/hints to get to reliable/quality ride?

    Thanks for advice – looking forward to getting out of this mess.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    I used 09 Pilot wheels, 17". If you're PAX are worn out completely, use old TPMS. I had about 3/32 tread left, sold my PAX set for about $300 net (most value was in the TPMS) and bought used Touring TPMS on Ebay for $75, worked fine. If you go latter route, don't let Honda dealer convince you to pay $150 to have new TPMS reset. If they are compatible w your model year Touring (and make certain they are), they should reset automatically. A lot of debate on this, but other forums insist Touring is the only Ody that resets TPMS sensors itself, in my case it was true even for used sensors.

    Also got a spare from a salvage yard, but make sure its compatible and that also takes a fair amount of hunting and luck.

    Thanks for info on getting 40 and then 20. That'll be a nice post to use in my upcoming trial against Honda/Michelin/dealer.

    One last note on ride. Since we went conventional, no issues except at speeds above 65-70, some vibration in steeting wheel, also when braking at high speeds. Balancing issue, I need to bring it in. Even if they can't fix, small price to pay for PAX-free.
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