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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans



  • Thanks cccompson,


    For understanding my points and passion. I agree with your explaination of the drawerbacks of PAX. As much as I like the PAX technology and the Ody, I feel it is too limiting and controlled too closely by Honda/Michelin. And leaves the consumer stuck in many ways.


    My passion is very much based on the dealer and Honda NOT explaining the issues and limitations to consumers. NOT even the Road and Track story explained them adequately. There are others on these forums that found out ONLY after the purchase. This almost happened to me.


    gkkim, The Sienna Run flats you are referring to ONLY come standard on the AWD that has NO room for a spare. The Touring has room, but Honda wasted it. The Toyota RFT can be swapped at any time with a standard tire, even in an emergency when stuck somewhere without a RFT. Toyota dealer and literature explained their RFT adequately. Honda hid the facts! I bought the 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited FWD without RFT, I had choice.


    isellhondas, I was simply stating what I experienced with the back seats in the Ody at my dealer. Glad you have had great luck. No abuse was put on the Ody I test drove and the lever, JUST broke very easily. Maybe you might want to investagate that the lever in question is made of a thin plastic, making this no so hard to see how it broke. The Sienna simply had a better folding system, void of plastic handles.


    As far as the people how thinking I never get flats. Well great for you. But all it will take is one on a weekend or in a remote place. Not to even speak of tire replacements when Honda / Michelin, who some say want to differentiate, will do so by allowing you to pay whatever they want.


    PAX allows no snow tires or donut spares so why has Honda made these tires a requirement of the Touring instead of an option? The Touring model in Canada has normal tires. Guess why? They could have differentiate, by offering PAX as an option. And when sales are figured out. I bet they will.


    steve, my 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited has tire pressure sensors and has regular normal tires, not RFT. This is easily accomplished to comply with new laws without RFT. PAX has been around since 1998, and after seven years they are still not wide spread. Maybe, I will wait until Goodyear, Pirelli, Toyo and Sumitomo are all selling PAX that fit the Ody Touring and there are actual tire places that repair them before I will buy PAX. Knowing that it is coming does NOT help me when I am stuck somewhere. I do agree RFT technology will be widespread on day, BUT it is to be seen if the PAX technology licensed from just one company is the answer to this.


    My posts were not meant to bash Honda or PAX as I almost bought the Honda Touring. It was meant to clear up some peoples misconceptions and help them make an informed choice. I almost made a choice I would have regreted after spending 40K. Seems Honda is NOT telling the entire deal here. Most buyers are either unware or mis-informed. How can you make a clear choice without the facts?


    Stephen A
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    And, again, I hope someone from Honda corporate monitors these boards so they can see just how strongly some people are against these.


    As far as getting stranded in a remote location, I guess the same could apply to people who buy unusual cars that don't have dealers in very many places. I can think of quite a few and I really see little difference between getting stuck somewhere with a PAX flat or a blown water pump on a Saab.
  • The Ody has "4" tires which will increase the odds of a flat, the Saab only has "1" water pump!


    Looks like Honda should have just included a can of "flat" fix and stayed with old technology.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    That Saab has dozens of critical parts that could fail besides a water pump! I only used that as an example.
  • Honda said that they will get you a replacement PAX tire if you have a problem, just give them a call. What if you are in an area where you have no service for your cell phone? If you are more than 125 miles away from a dealer you could just as easy be in a "no" cell area. Honda can't get you your replacement tire if you can't call them!!!


    Yes, I know that if any car has problems and you can't use your cell phone you are in big trouble, but why add to the problem of driving with these tires?


    Maybe, Honda's little robot that jogs can bring you your replacement PAX tire!!! I wondered why Honda was working so hard on this little guy!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Some people look for positives and others the negatives. The PAX system like many things has both.
  • Some people live in the real world and some people don't. The fact remains that this PAX system could be a huge problem for many Ody owners and they may not even be aware of their situation until it is too late for them.


    Like I mentioned before, a can of "flat" fix for $3.99 and regular tires would be a better system than what Honda decided to do with these PAX tires.


    The positives will be noticed as you drive your Honda, you will enjoy them. The negatives like PAX tires will bite you in the A$$ and you will be out 40 GRAND!!!


    Honda slipped up of this tire combination, admit it.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    They can be RUN FLAT for 125 miles.


    If your Saab decides to lose a fuel pump in the middle of nowhere, it can't be driven at all!


    Yeah, I see negatives and I'll point them out to my customers and let them weigh the pros vs. the cons fot themselves.


    Not everyone sees the glass as half empty the way you do.


    And, only time will tell if Honda has, in fact, "slipped up". If this proves to be the case, I will, indeed, admit it.
  • jaserbjaserb Posts: 858
    that could go wrong and leave you stranded. Heck, buying a Saab is almost asking for it. But I think if I had bought a Honda - where reliability is a big selling point - and ended up getting stranded due to TIRES, of all things, I'd be pretty upset. PAX should have been OPTIONAL, if offered at all.


  • The glass is not half empty, it is broken and in Honda's case it's customers might get a flat tire from the fallout. Most of the posts here did not forget that you can run these tire 125 miles. Obviously you can't understand that people here feel that 125 miles might not be enough and they just don't feel confortable with this set up.


    Sorry, I don't think that people here are going to fall for what you are saying when it comes to what negatives you tell your customers. Can anybody here remember a car salesman pointing out the negatives of their product? They will trash the other makes for sure.


    The middle of nowhere? If that happens to be at a top of a mountain, then the Saab with the broken water pump can at least be rolled down hill, how about the Ody with a bad set of tires?


    Don't get so up tight. I would be very happy if someone points out the negatives, who wants to find out after you spend 40 GRAND!!!!


    Your logic is funny!!! Not worth 40 GRAND, but funny.
  • samnoesamnoe Posts: 731
    I had my Windstar for 3 years with self-sealing tires, and never experienced a flat tire. Now my lease ended and I replaced it with a 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan, and on the second week I got a nail in my tire, and found in the morning my van on the floor...


    I will never know if my old vans self sealing feature was ever used, or maybe I just had luck for 3 years, but fact remains fact. 3 years and never had any trouble, and now in my second week I do had a flat tire.


    I still can't understand why self-sealing tires aren't more wide-spread. As I mentioned above, it has many pros over run-flat and PAX tires, that it seals itself and you can travel with the same tire until the end of the tires life, you don't get limits of 100 or 150 miles, no trip to the dealer, no time waiting for delivery, no cost to replace it. The only negative is that a bigger puncture will not be sealed.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    I'm not uptight and I'm sorry you don't understand my logic. I see your points and I can't understand why you can't see mine.


    I still contend that you can get just as stuck, stranded somewhere in an oddball car. that doesn't seem to be a negative to you I guess?
  • indy93indy93 Posts: 97
    I just did the same thing I cancelled my Touring N/R order even though it is due in this week. Picked -up a new 05 Sienna Ltd. FWD #2(HO)Navi. Pax was an issue for me as well. Both are great vans! But...Sienna was $3800.00 less!
  • You are choosing a situation (Saab) that trys to justify you position. Since you are using a Saab (oddball, your words) then you must be saying that Honda PAX tire system is also an oddball and that puts the Ody in the same category as a Saab.


    I understand your logic, roll the dice, you have 125 miles and don't worry about these tires. For those people that are forward thinkers, they are very wise to look before they leap. What's wrong with being concerned with what might happen if you are more than 125 miles away from a dealer and your tire is history?


    Today it is 16 degrees outside and going down to zero with windchills somewhere around the insane area. Traveling with a Ody with PAX tires and 125 or more away from a dealer could be very dangerous to have to wait for them to deliver your tire. I'll take a spare tire system anytime and not have to depend on Honda.


    Most people might not have any problems with Honda getting them a replacement tire, just be sure you are within the 125 mile range or pack a lunch and blankets to make owning a Ody enjoyable.


    No sir, not for 40 GRAND!!!!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Guess I'll just stay home today. after all, something "might" happen on my way into work this morning I suppose.
  • Just don't buy a Ody with the PAX system and you will be ok! :)
  • You mean there is no water pump or fuel pump in a Honda??
  • Guess I'll just stay home today. after all, something "might" happen on my way into work this morning I suppose.


    I think you should stayed on topic with PAX before dragging SAAB into this. For what it's worth, there are more than a dozen SAAB dealers in MA alone, and dozens if not hundreds of independent shops that can fix SAABs. How many PAX dealers are in MA? Even when venturing outside MA, most of today's SAABs have critical parts interchangeable with other GM models, aside from engines at this point. I doubt you stock brand new engines for every Honda model at your dealership waiting for drop-in's and let customers on their merry way in half an hour after they get towed in with blown engines. By far the most common mode of sudden catastrophic engine failure mode is broken timing belt. Honda engines have interference design so when the timing belt goes, the engine valves are toast. Most SAAB models have timing chains that do not break at all.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    I should have known better...OK, use a Peugeot instead! Most Honda owners change their timing belts when scheduled. It is VERY rare to get one here towned in with a broken belt and when this does happen, engine damage doesn't always occur. Damage is usually limited to bent valves.


    Like I said before, I give up. If a person is that fearful of getting stranded with PAX tires, they really shouldn't buy them. They should also, for the same reason, buy a popular mainstream car.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Today it is 16 degrees outside and going down to zero with windchills somewhere around the insane area. Traveling with a Ody with PAX tires


    Actually that's the kind of weather I'd want run flats for; pretty miserable conditions to be putting a spare on - I've never heard of AAA getting to your disabled car in less than an hour either.


    Steve, Host
  • Great I can go 125 miles on this flat all due to PAX. My dad and sisters houses are a 175 miles from mine. There are no dealers that are stocking these PAX tires here and I live in North Jersey (20 minutes from Manhattan) and my family lives in upstate NY! Not exactly remote. Michelin has NO PAX tire shops in NYC!!!! My own Honda dealer in north Jersey has none!


    The 125 mile range in not that helpful really, if there are NO dealers to get a replacement on a weekend, at night, in a remote place, or HEY, even here where I live, NEXT to NYC! The "fix it later" idea is only good so you can off a highway or out of bad weather and go directly to a replacement. If a tire gets shredded forget it.


    Other RFT or self sealing tires would be just as helpful as PAX, but do not leave you stuck with no alternatives. No reason for PAX to use odd sizes, or for Honda not to offer a solution for using non-PAX. There ONLY reason is to control the tire on your van...


    Maybe we might want to remember that even if you do not ever get a flat, you need replacement and these will cost double or triple the price. And let's please remember there are NO Michelin or Honda dealers that actually fix PAX. They merely swap one, IF they have ONE!


    For the record, I did speak to the so-called PAX tire expert at Michelin that is available from their toll free number. He said if I needed them, they would get a tire to me. I asked how if I was in Canada. He said they would tow me to the nearest PAX dealer. I remined him there were NO PAX dealers in Canada (remember he is the expert). He replied," oh really? Well in that case I GUESS we would tow your car to a repair shop and fly a tire in. We could, I GUESS put you up in a hotel until we could get you going again." All this for a flat? I think not!


    Please check with Michelin yourself. Few states have many Michelin PAX shops. Some listed on their web site, actually DO NOT have them in stock, I CALLED!


    I think you might have a better experience with a SAAB! Also think a tire is a pretty basic thing and on almost all vehicles you can get a replacement anywhere!


    Forget donuts and snow tires! Sorry Honda and Michelin feel YOU do NOT need them, I guess.


    I still thank this forum to ALLOW me to make an informed choice and cancel my order and buy a 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited.


    Stephen A
  • user777user777 Posts: 3,341
    Availability of RFTs would be an issue for me. Price would be another serious consideration. A third would be who was capable / competent to perform proper repair, or replacement on my vehicle.


    If the tires weren't wearing evenly, and I replaced them in pairs (you are supposed to do that right?) - sounds like a costly proposition to me. And if I were lucky enough they were wearing evenly and I needed to replace all 4, now what's the cost of that? And how many times should I plan to do that for a van I plan to own for (hopefully) 180K or 200K miles...three, four, five times? Let's see assuming the tires were $200 per tire installed, that's $800 a set of 4, and say I replace them 5 times, that's $4000 in tires alone.


    If I hit debris in the highway like a ladder (no joke if you drive the perimeter in Atlanta GA), what does that do to the tire - does it compromise it's internals? How would I know for sure? Can you drive on it? And if I hit something that compromises the sidewall so I obviously can't drive on it - I'm forced to get a tow right?


    If I'm parked and I note the wheel is deformed slightly, do I assume it's OK to drive on it? If I do, does that potentially reduce the chances of it being repaired? Can I repair it? Do I have to take it to a shop that has RFTs or can any shop make that determination?


    Would I want to have to shove a 5th full-size tire or even a donut behind the third row? Why would I want to stick one on the roof?


    What do I do if I'm not jazzed with the performance of the tire in the rain (substitue the snow or say road noise on dry pavement)? What are my alternatives?


    Conventional tires for me thanks.
  • I don't understand all the passionate feelings that seem to border on pure hatred about PAX. They seem to believe beyond any reasonable doubt that if they get a Touring ODY, their PAX tires will go flat within the very near future somewhere over 125 miles from any Honda or Michelin dealer. Talk about pessimism and "what ifs". It so happens that there are many of us who don't buy all the "fear factors" thrown out, for whatever reason. I am disabled, and there is no way I can change a tire, and I don't want to buy a cell phone and pay a monthly fee just in case I might have a flat (I haven't had one in over 12 years and almost 200,000 miles of travel all over the country). I have been driving since I was 16 (almost 60 years ago). I am a graduate mechanical engineer (Univ. of Ill. --back when we still used slide rules)and a past long-time active member of SAE. I have never been hesitant to try new technology (I have owned more than 30 different cars over that time), and have only struck out twice--a '78 Olds Diesel and a '74 Fiat (Fix It Again Tony).

         Only time will tell if PAX is a good system or not. Given Honda's and Michelin's track records and the quality of their engineering, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Besides, there is no other run-flat system out there that is as good. Cheer up--the world isn't all that bad! It really is a good place.
  • ewtewt Posts: 127
    I think the fundamental problem I and others have is that you're giving up a lot over a regular RFT for minimal gains. There just isn't that much of an advantage to justify locking yourself into a proprietary system that may or may not gain acceptance. My RFT equipped Sienna rides and handles (by minivan standards) very well. I might have to replace my tires more often than I would with PAX tires, but I'm willing to live with that, especially since the likely additional cost (I'll believe only 10% more per tire when I see it) of PAX replacement tires will partially outweigh the difference in cost due to treadwear. I've read the Jan. Road and Track article, and remain unconvinced.


    Conventional RFTs just aren't that much of a handicap. Even the C6 Corvette uses them, and not many people are complaining about the handling of it. The "tweel" mentioned in the article has some obvious appeal if they can get it to work.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Given Honda's and Michelin's track records and the quality of their engineering, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt..."


    Well, it's a tire/wheel assembly we're talking about, so I'm not sure why we would examine HONDA'S track record. So let's just look at MICHELIN'S track record when it comes to introducing new tire technology in a non-standard size.


    Michelin has introduced AT LEAST one other 'bleeding edge' tire which was supposed to revolutionize the industry which required a specialized rim. This was the TRX tire. Like PAX, the TRX tire promised many benefits over standard tire technology. Like PAX, the TRX tire required special TRX rims. These rims would NOT accept any standard tires due to their odd size, just like PAX. Unlike PAX however, TRX was initially offered on more models (several BMW's and high performance Mustangs) so there was a much hgher number of cars on the road initially using TRX.


    So, if you wish to look at track records, Michelin surely has one. But unless you can point to ONE instance in which Michelin sucessfully introduced a proprietary tire/wheel combo, I would say their track record is not so hot.
  • I'm certainly no technophobe. I like regular run-flats. Michelin's track record on messing with rim size is not good at all: rember TRX?? I had a BMW in the 80's with TRX tires. They were the cutting edge technology when they were conjured up in the labs, merely above average when made available to the market, and behind the curve within a few years. It was nigh impossible to find snow tires for the size. I ended up having to replace all four wheels with regular 16". Tire companies should stick their noses to making tires to fit existing wheel standards, not messing with wheel sizes on their own in vain attempts to corner a niche market. Odyssey being a popular main stream vehicle where low cost of ownership is part of the selling point makes the problem even worse.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Well, you can still get TRX summer tires at Tire Rack. I think Michelin will be doing PAX tires for the duration.

    I guess someone may still be making BETA VCRs for the consumer market too.


    Steve, Host
  • Not anymore at Tire Rack. I just checked a minute ago; no tires for mid-80's 535i TRX OEM wheels. It's besides the point anyway. Who in the right mind would even buy an TRX tire today. The tread technology embodied in TRX tire was behind the curve as early as the early 1990's. They are like two or three generations behind the modern triple-tread tires that cost one third the price of TRX.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I didn't specify a size when I drilled down to my link above, but 220/55VR390's flopped up as being in stock.


    My point is that if you drive your Ody Touring for a decade, you're still going to be able to get tires for the OEM rims.


    Steve, Host
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    I guess the 25 year old TRX fiasco will continue to be dragged through the dirt just like an Edsel?
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