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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Maybe you can ask a Rolls-Royce Phantom owner who's rented a trailer from U-Haul.....
  • ...or an Odyssey Touring owner popup camper!
  • Your #2 (If I want a non run flat for a spare...) I suggest to use 16" (225/65R16 tire)or 15" (225/70R15 tire) steel wheel for a full size spare (non-runflat). That is what I did (see my post #710 for details - Toyota Sienna 2004+).

     

    Your #3. I am going to buy four Yokohama Avid TRZs. My existing 15" spare will stay as it is.

     

    I absolutely did not have any problems driving on three Bridgestone B380 225/60R17 and one Kumho 225/70R15. As far as I remember, I used this spare for about a week.

     

    I now keep my spare behind the third row at all times. It goes inside a wheel well, which is shown in the manual and on the diagram included with the jacking tools on AWD models. I bought threaded post which is designed to hold spare in place from the Toyota dealership. There is threaded hole in the center of the spare tire well behind third row. The hole is covered by carpet. A small cut in the carpet is required to gain access to this threaded hole.

       

    When going on trips which require a lot of luggage, the spare goes on my hitch mounted bicycle carrier (between the post and rear hatch, while bicycles go on the cantilevered beam mounted on the opposite side of the post). I attach spare to the vertical post of the bike carrier using big U-bolt which I bought for $10.00 form the marine trailer place. This U-bolt is used to attach spare tires for boat trailers.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Well, one combo is only slightly more rare than the other.

     

    This towing issue seems--IMO--to be yet another drawback to PAX. And it certainly seems as though Honda and Michelin need a crash course in eachother's product.
  • Thanks for the follow up information, vgrinshpun.
  • heywood1 -

     

      Actually, I'm a member of an on-line community that focuses on popup campers, and you might be surprised how many people use minivans to pull popup campers.

     

      The issue of towing with a minivan that uses run-flat tires is fairly new. I'm used to new popup owners being told to get a full-size spare for their minivan, so I was curious as to how run-flat tire manufacturers were addressing the issue. If leaving the trailer at the side of the road is their best solution, it does seem that run-flat tires are still an immature technology that only addresses limited needs.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Understandable.

     

    By 'rare,' I just meant that there probably aren't that many 'Touring' owners pulling popup campers at the moment, because: 1)it's a new model, 2)it's a small percentage of Odyssey production in-general, and 3)only a small percentage of THOSE would have any towing experience with PAX.

     

    I myself have never really considered a minivan as a tow vehicle, but I'm sure it's more than adequate for light popups and small watercraft.

     

     

    If you haven't already bought this van, I'd go for the EX-L instead.

     

    Good luck.
  • Yes, I recognize there aren't many out there, yet. Just happened to be gathering info and stumbled into this issue; quickly came to the conclusion that run-flats are interesting technology that hasn't been fully developed yet.

    A related problem with many minivans (inlcluding non-Touring Odysseys): The spare tire storage area isn't large enough for a full-size spare (the donut spare isn't rated to tow a trailer, either).

    In many ways, minivans are ideal tow vehicles: A low center of gravity (most SUVs fall short in this area) and short rear-axle-to-hitch-point distance makes for a very stable, controllable tow platform. Sadly, most minivans are designed around car-based front-wheel-drive components, and simply don't have the drivetrain for heavier loads.
  • buck4buck4 Posts: 1
    I talked to a dealer and told me $600 bucks apiece
  • I am in the process of buying a new car and I had just put down a deposit on an AWD '05 Sienna. We need AWD (upstate NY) and are trading in a Town & Country AWD. After I signed the purchase agreement and paid the deposit, I started investigating the run flat tires (I didn't know they came with them until that point). I have learned a lot about them and I am very wary. I want AWD and Toyotas have served me well over the years. Now my question. Should I just replace the run flats before I even get the vehicle? I have heard that the dealer installed spare interferes with the back seats. I am tempted not to get the Sienna (the dealer has already cancelled our original deal) and get another AWD/4WD. Any advice??
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Well, I'm not sure there IS another AWD minivan. Your only other alternative would be an SUV.

    I understand some of the complaints regarding premature tire wear with the conventional run-flats. That being said, I've not been unhappy with mine-- we've even bought an additional set of RFT winter tires. They have performed reasonably well (the winter tires are AMAZING in the snow), but I'm not expecting 50K out of either set. If you're one of those people who judge the quality of a tire strictly by the number of miles you get from a set, then you probably won't be happy with the RFT's. Keep in mind, ANY tire that can go 50K is beyond the limits of being very safe long before that point anyway.

    The AWD Sienna has been wonderful. If you don't like the RFT's, then replace them with conventionals when they wear out.

    Keep in mind, this is an expensive and capable vehicle. You can't expect to get off cheap with the tires.

    Also, conventional tires for any bigger SUV you may be considering will cost as much or more per tire.

    Don't let this tail wag your dog. Buy the AWD Sienna-- you'll love it.
  • Just purchased a 2005 AWD with the run flats and have decided to just "see how it goes" in terms of wear. I did purchase a compact spare (the RFTs are not good for over 100 miles and you can't drive on them under all circumstances.) When they wear out I'll probably replace them with non-RFTs since I'm carrying the spare anyway. Incidentally, the spare mounts behind the driver's side third row seat in the well that the folded seat normally uses. There is a kit for it but since it fits in the well, you can't fold down the third row seat with the spare in place. Not a problem for me but if you carry bulky loads often it might become a pain to carry the spare. I also invested in another set of wheels and non-RFT snow tires. The original equipment RFTs are not supposed to be all that hot in the snow. PS. The van is very nice overall and I'm very happy with it.
  • joeb24joeb24 Posts: 111
    ednovak - Where dod you get the compact spare? How much did it cost. Is this the "dealer installed option" advertized in the Brochure? I am carrying a full size spare with an alloy rim, but I wouldn't mind downsizing to give me more room behind the 3rd row seat. I also am using run-flat snow tires on their own rims.
  • I got the compact rim from the dealer (forgot how much I paid but couldn't find it anywhere else). The tire was from TireRack.com. It ran about $175 including shipping but the dealer wanted $220. I know, ridiculous. Also, I don't know that the compact will really be of much use to you IF the full size spare you are using fits into the well behind the driver's side third row seat. I saw a post awhile back that said some full sized tires MIGHT fit into the well but they would be tight. The diameter of the compact spare is nearly identical to that of a full size tire. If the spare you are using does fit, there is little advantage (and a lot of cost) in putting together the compact spare. One thing though. You should get the tire hold down bracket from Toyota so that the spare doesn't become a missile in an accident. There is already a threaded bolt in the floor (under the carpet) behind the driver's side third row seat that is designed to accept a spare tire hold down bracket. You shouldn't have to buy the entire spare tire "kit" (which would only fit over the compact spare anyway.) The P/N for the spare tire bolt and knob set alone is 51900-45010. Hopefully, the center hole of the full sized spare will "line up" with the bolt in the floorboard in the same way the compact spare does and allow you to safely bolt it down. Good luck.
  • joeb24joeb24 Posts: 111
    Thanks for the info. Why is the compact spare tire so expensive? I don't think the full size spare fits flat in the well, but I'll try it again. I have it standing upright, secured to the lower, metal frame of the bigger of the two third row seats, and blocked in with a storage box. I can still fold down the smaller third row seat.
    I know some have advocated replacing the run-flats with conventional tires. But, what does one do when it is time to sell or trade in the van? A buyer or dealer may not appreciate the fact that there is a spare tire taking up room behind the thrd row seats, and removing some seating versatility.
  • I don't know why the compact spare is priced the way it is. I nearly fell over when Toyota quoted over $220 for it and wasn't exactly thrilled at the TireRack price either. Still, it's good for up to 3,000 miles vs. 100 on the run flats and it will fit horizontally in the well behind the seat so I went for it. With the spare tire in place I can also fold down the passenger side third row seat.
    I never considered the trade in. I expect to have the van through at least a couple of tire changes so that isn't really a concern for me. Hopefully by the time I trade it, RFT technology will be more mainstream and MUCH cheaper.
  • The new Yokohama Avid TRZ, size 225/60-17, are listed as available at Tirerack now. $95 ea. I'm thinking about going to these myself. Have a nail in one of my runflats, and it's such a pain to find a place with the proper machine to work on runflats. Talked to a Toyota service foreman, it takes a special machine because of the superstrength sidewall, and it also needs an inflation cage because of the high psi they have to use to get the bead to set on installation (again because of the high strength sidewall). The Yokohama has an 80K treadlife warranty. Would mean getting the spare though. But the next flat I could get fixed at any old tire store.
  • cptpltcptplt Posts: 1,075
    unless you really are going on unplowed roads, I have found that good snowtires on a FWD van with traction control is usually as good as if not better than AWD with crummy all seasons (ie almost any OEM all season). Best obviously is AWD and snowtires.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    And on whose van? The one in the Edmunds Long Term test fleet:

    Long-Term Test: 2005 Honda Odyssey

    Steve, Host
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Doh!
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Upon reconsideration of the PAX, I bought a Touring model the week before last. Previously, I had considered PAX a deal-breaker due to certain issues.

    Eventually, I concluded the safety margin PAX offers in the event of a freeway blow-out, when added to its other plus, tipped the scales in favor of PAX.

    One aspect of PAX that has not been discussed here concerns the fact that the wheel has little protection against damage in the event of bumping a curb while parking on a street. Conventional tires have a bit of a bulge and will contact the curb before the rim. With PAX, there is barely any such protection. Fortunately, I rarely street park.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Congrats on the new van!

    Remember curb feelers? I wonder if anyone still makes them.

    Steve, Host
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Thanks, Steve. Actually, I had thought about looking into whether curb feelers are still available.

    It will be interesting to see if Edmunds' test Odyssey Touring experiences any curbing problems.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    The first time I saw photos of the Ody Touring and those PAX rims, I wondered about the potential for 'curbing' myself. There is no way my wife would be able to keep them unscathed. I predict there will be a premium for undamaged Ody PAX wheels on Ebay.
  • jstenufjstenuf Posts: 1
    I still have reservations because the PAX system is based on Energy LX 4 model. Check the performance data at Michelin for this tire. I live in Minnesota and the winter traction really concerns me along with all the other issues pointed out in this forum.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    While I haven't had a chance to see how the tires do in snow, a co-worker has reported good results with his Touring during a trip to snowy Cleveland. I do think the weight of the vehicle has to help somewhat in this regard.

    One other point about PAX - the van rides just great - if a person didn't know, they would never guess it's equipped with run-flats.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Thanks for the link, Steve. He might be right but it seems he's doing quite a bit of theoretical speculation - especially the bit about the likelihood of "shattering" the support ring.
  • I have the Sienna AWD with run flat tires but decided to go with a full sized regular tire for my spare. It is too large to lay down in the wheel well behind the third row seat. It would have to be upright and lashed to the seat. As I mostly am carrying cargo and hardly ever passengers, I didn't like that option. I may eventually try to go with a roof rack (has anybody done this?), but for now I had a better idea. Both of the 2nd row seats have been removed. I laid the spare flat on the floor behind the passenger seat and lashed it with straps to the bar in the floor that is used to connect the seat. It now takes up much less space and seems to be quite secure. I put a towel underneath it and a tire cover over the top to keep everything clean. And I can pile stuff on top of it if necessary. I imagine you could still do this with one of the 2nd row seats in place, and you can still use the 3rd row seating.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    With this seemingly cumbersome back-up spare system, why do you bother with the expense of conventional-funflats?
  • Hi, weedshasta

    I am really surprised that you had a problem laying full size spare flat behind the third row (driver side). Mine fits right in, with a bit of a squeeze. What size did you get? Mine is 225/70R15
  • There seem to be a number of cases where you cannot drive at all on a runflat (see #251). In that case I want to be able to have AAA put my spare on and be able to drive until I can get a new runflat. That may be a week or so. I got an identical rim and the 225/60R17 tire, just like are on the car. I guess that would be 2 inches larger in diameter, so it does not lie flat in the well.
  • 225/70R15 has approximately the same diameter as original 225/60R17; driving vehicle with one tire having diameter 2 inches less than three other is not a very good idea. The key is in larger aspect ratio for tire for 15" rim vs. the tire for 17" rim: 70 vs 60. As a result outside diameter of 225/70R15 would be 15+(225*0.7*2)/25.54=27.40 inches, approximately the same as outside diameter of 225/60R17: 17+(225*0.6*2)/25.54=27.63, i.e. 0.23 inches less.

    The following link to tirerack.com provides additional info on tire sizing: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/size_information.jsp
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Just for a spare tire...seems to me anyway.

    Am I just lucky? I'm honestly trying to remember the last time I had a flat tire and I can't!
  • joeb24joeb24 Posts: 111
    I have the same arrangement as weedshasta with the full size spare, and, yes, it does not lie flat. So I have it secured with bungee cords to the left, third row seat. I can still lower the right third row seat. I will rotate this spare in when I rotate tires so as to get more miles out of the Bridgestone runflats.
  • I measured the well at 24" and the tire is about 27". I put it in the well and it stuck over the edge quite a bit. No amount of my pushing could get it in. And since I am usually hauling cargo, having the seat up is in the way.
    As a 60 year old female who is on the road quite a bit, alone and far from home, the trouble and expense is worth my peace of mind.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Hey now, don't jinx us. I haven't had a flat since last August.

    I wouldn't trust bungie cords to secure a heavy spare in the event of a panic stop.

    "During a serious car crash, anything that is not bolted down or securely tethered becomes a dangerous projectile." (link)

    This includes 80 pound sand bags, the Club, laptops, spare tires, rear seat passengers, etc.

    Steve, Host
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    As I was directed here to continue discussion.

    My point for run flats "weak point" is that if one of them disintegrates (while hitting pothole) you are left without spare. No good.

    Another point is that knowing that run flats are stronger it would mean that they pass more energy, in the case of impact, to the rest of the car. Really bad for suspension.

    Krzys
  • dzubadzuba Posts: 159
    Without me reading through 1000 postings - could someone give me the Plus and Minus on these tires that come with the Touring Model?

    How much are they to replace when I need new tires?

    Do I really need Wheel Locks on the tires?
    Thanks
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    I would really recommend that you DO read through these previous postings (there are 294, not 1000).

    IMO, there are more negatives than positives, including proprietary technology and no available winter tires.

    Replacement cost is debatable. PAX proponents will tell you they will (eventually) cost no more than a standard tire (a difficult claim to predict or prove, if you ask me). Those of us that view PAX of dubious value will argue that the proprietary nature of the technology--and the limited number of models (two) currently sold in this country that require them--will keep prices high.

    I've always felt wheel locks are a waste of effort. There are only so many patterns of locks for your vehicle, and I believe any professional thief probably already has them all.
  • dsrtrat2dsrtrat2 Posts: 223
    The "Manic mechanic" who has a radio call in show says he doesn't think run-flats are quite there yet. When I trade in my '04 ODY I won't get the run-flats.
  • dzubadzuba Posts: 159
    Can you get the Touring Model from Honda without the Run Flats?

    Call me crazy, but my wife really wants black/black, and that only comes on the Touring. Life is to short, she needs to be happy!
  • nojonesnojones Posts: 13
    This is what I was told from a dealer in PA:

    The most that [replacing a Touring tire/wheel] would cost you according to Honda is $635.00. That would be for the whole deal. Tire, Wheel, Sensor, and Mount and Balance. If you need just the tire you would be looking at about $180.00, sensor about $35.00, and wheel would be $385.00.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    You cannot get the 'Touring' without PAX run-flats--unless, as I understand, you live in Canada.

    Sounds like you might have to eat a PAX sandwich to keep the wife happy.....
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    And the more supportive posts are by a Honda salesman. You decide who's objective.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    lol, let's stick to the tires and avoid characterizing each other. We all, like the tires, have our little plusses and minuses.

    Steve, Host
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    No problem. Thanks for keeping me from repeating myself constantly.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    My father always said, "Locks are for honest thieves." IMO, If a thief wants your wheels, he's probably going to get them--wheel locks or not.

    Wheel locks also make tire rotation a pain. And make sure you don't lose the socket.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    I'd comment on the 'true life story,' but I'd be repeating myself.....
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