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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    You might want to check out Karl Brauer's discussion and specifically his most recent post here - editor_karl, "Karl's Daily Log Book" #39, 17 Mar 2005 12:53 pm where he talks about driving the new Honda Odyssey and getting a nail in the PAX tire.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Heh, my similar post didn't flop up in the recent ones when Sylvia came through. Don't hassle her though - she has an Odyssey in her garage (no run-flats though afaik).

    Steve, Host
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Sure enough, it took multiple phone calls to multiple Honda dealers, followed by multiple phone calls to multiple Michelin tire dealers, to find one that could repair it. Then it took about two hours once they started working on the tire because, as the technician told me, "This is the first one we've done, and the machine isn't working properly. I'll have to call our Michelin rep to have the machine repaired."

    Well, I'm sure Karl is located somewhere way out in the sticks where the local backwoods Honda/Michelin dealers don't have the PAX tires in stock or know how to work on them. I'm sure if he were in a major metropolitan area (like maybe the greater LA basin) he wouldn't have any problems at all finding service.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Certainly, if things were different, they wouldn't be the same.

    Maybe you know where Karl was, but I have no idea where this occurred. Maybe we can find out.

    And it shouldn't matter anyway. Why should only those who live in--or lucky enough to break down in--huge metro areas deserve to have their PAX serviced without a problem?

    Honda & Michelin need to make sure there is strong and knowledgeable PAX support nationwide (including the red states) if they want more people to embrace this technology.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Karl lives in West Los Angeles (About the Editors). Edmunds is in Santa Monica. From his post it sounds like he tried to get the tire fixed in LA before heading out.

    I'm sure we'll hear more about it in the next Long-Term Test.

    Steve, Host
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    I already knew where Karl was based. My last post was, ummmmmm, somewhat sarcastic in nature. Sorry; doesn't translate well.

    Point being, if he had that much trouble in the greater LA basin, what kind of service can those in say, Nebraska or Mississippi expect?
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Yeah, but I was replying to Heywood. :-)

    LA is a big mass of little villages and a downtown that rolls the sidewalks up at 6 pm, so maybe it would be easier to fix a PAX in Biloxi or Omaha?

    Steve, Host
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "LA is a big mass of little villages and a downtown that rolls the sidewalks up at 6 pm, so maybe it would be easier to fix a PAX in Biloxi or Omaha?"

    I'll be a sunofagun.....sarcasm DOES work here. Guess I'll have to practice more....
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    lol, yeah, but I was being serious. There's only a handful of clubs in downtown LA and stuff is spread all over. Downtown looks deserted once the office workers go home.

    There's a lot more Michelin dealers in LA, but individually they may not be as big as the two near Biloxi or the dozen plus in Omaha.

    Steve, Host
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    I guess I'm not plugged into west coast humor. I've been to visit a college buddy in LA a few times. It's a nice place to visit......
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Yeah, my wife is from SoCal (San Diego) and has cousins in LA, but doesn't want to move back to California. The last lay over we had there was shortly after a rain and the view from LAX east was amazing. Too bad it's so crowded no one lives there anymore (some more PAX humor, lol).

    Anyone have any flats lately?

    Steve, Host
  • chewie5chewie5 Posts: 61
    Isell (or anyone else),

    Can you show me what Honda's official policy is regarding replacement of the tires in the event of a flat? I thought from reading here that the replacement would be free while under warranty, but the Honda dealer I talked to recently said they don't cover it. He said that the tire is warranted by Michelin, and they would replace it if there was a DEFECT and not a flat. Is that true? If it is covered, I'd like to be able to have something to show them.

    Also, what is the typical cost to replace them if I get a flat? Someone previously broke down the pricing for the tire itself, the sensor, and the wheel, but what is normally replaced?

    Thanks!
  • dulnevdulnev Posts: 652
    The Michelin warranty booklet that comes with 2005 Ody Touring clearly spells out that Michelin will cover flats resulting from ANY cause for the first two years of ownership. I carry this booklet in the glove compartment to deal with stupid dealers like the one you've encountered.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    There was a post here a while back from someone who's wife bounced her Touring off a curb and destroyed the tire. That was covered under the warranty, so it seems anything goes during this honeymoon period.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Surprised they would cover blatant abuse but it sounds like they did.

    It sounds like Michelin is going to extremes in an attempt to make people comfortable with these and that's a good thing!
  • automateautomate Posts: 2
    Mine occurred in the greater S.F. Bay Area. Have had the Odyssey since 12/1/04. In both cases the dealer's had no clue how to handle the flat repair. Thank God Michelin was involved. Had to argue with the service managers and Honda corporate. First was at Dublin Honda. The tech. took over an hour and a half unpacking the crate the PAX replacement came in, very surly overall experience. 2nd (I know, what luck to get two flats inside of three months) was with Walnut Creek Honda. 90 minutes before they agreed to change the tire, then they had to go get one from Concord Honda. I personally got the Michelin people on the line to explain to the service manager what the policy was. I had to get a ride home and wait a half a day to get the car back. Honda did not come through and has some serious work to do in terms of customer service and the dealer experience. We traded in a Lexus for this vehicle and man what a difference.
  • I'm reading some good info on the way repairing works, the Michellin wty etc. But could someone post some info on driving/riding characteristics of the PAX specifically on the '05 Ody vs. the regular Mich on the '05 Ody EXL.
    Specifically I wonder the comparison on road noise, smoothness, and handling/cornering. Haven't test driven the Touring yet....only the EXL.

    Thanks
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    To me, the most surprising thing about PAX is that they feel just like regular tires with none of the stiff ride characteristics normally associated with run-flats. I've only driven an EX-L once so I can't provide a detailed comparison with that particular model.

    On smooth payment my Touring rides great. Handling/cornering is excellent. On broken pavement, the ride can get rough, an attribute I believe to be an Odyssey characteristic in general. There is much noise transmitted when on concrete payment and very little on asphalt. The vehicle is much quieter overall than our '99 Odyssey.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    I predict a flurry of activity once Touring owners are facing replacement time....
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    I don't know about a "flurry," heywood, but I expect to post about three years from now relating that replacement was a rather pedestrian experience.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Neither of us will know for sure until the time comes. But I've noted this post number for future reference....
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    in Thursday's (4-21) Wall Street Journal about tires. Specifically, how more and more owners are getting caught off guard at replacement time because they didn't know their car requires high performance tires. The tire industry even has a term for it: "The accidental performance customer."
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Surprised?

    I think everything that can be said pro and con has been discussed ad nauseum, don't you?

    I doubt your continuing gloom and doom predictions will come to pass but time will tell.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    I'm just trying to keep the conversation ball rolling, and keep this thread from becoming 'read only.'

    See if you can find your boss's WSJ from Thursday. PAX isn't mentioned in the article, but it's worth reading--especially for anyone in your industry, Isell.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Pretty condesending wouldn't you say?

    I did let my WSJ subscription expire a couple of years ago. No time to read three newspapers a day. Two is enough.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    The article is a must-read. For example, did you know--or would you have guessed--that the 2006 Hyundai Sonata LX will come standard with V-rated tires? Most buyers won't either-- until it's time to replace them.

    Two papers are enough-- just give up the USA Today and re-subscribe to the Journal.
  • coachedcoached Posts: 8
    This whole pax/runflat thing is nuts. I have a 2004 Toy Sienna xle awd. I currently have 32,000 miles and i'm close to wearing out my second set of run flats. I had to replace one during my first set as I caught a nail in the side wall (hard to believe it could penetrate) and was told it could not be repaired. These tires wore out at 17,000. I saved the replacement and used it when my left front wore out on the outer edges (I have been rotating every 3000 miles). At $1000 dollars a set this is a bit outrageous and hardly worth the headaches. I realize the advantages but I am considering mounting regular tires and keeping aersol fixaflat in the car with one of those mini compressors that plugs into the cigarette lighter. :confuse:
  • cheilcheil Posts: 2
    i like my 2004 AWD sienna but after many problems regarding the run flats (which is currently a big issue since i can't afford to replace them at $300 a piece...they are bald at ONLY 22K miles...illegal here in CT to be on wheels that bad).

    if i had known that my brand new sienna came from the factory with run flats, i would have sent it back. i tried to replace the 17" tires (special order because no one stocks that size, OF COURSE) with regular all season tires but they could not even work on the car without the SPECIAL equipment needed to replace and/or repair run flats! regular replacement tires cost me a $135.99 each at a discount tire shop. i was told by toyota that run flats have about 20K worth of mileage on them. am i expected to replace all 4 tires annually at $300+ a pop? uh, i don't think so. still fighting with toyota on this.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    The tire shop that mounted the run-flats on my Sienna said no special equipment is needed, but extra time IS. Some shops without the experience aren't interested in taking the time.

    If you're really price sensitive and willing to go with conventionals, you can buy the 17" Bridgestone Turanza EL42's on the TireRack website for $68 each.
  • coachedcoached Posts: 8
    I'm serious about trying the alternative to run flats. BTW special equipment is not necessarily needed but knowledge is. I have been to a local firestone dealer where there is someone there who has been trained in mounting run flats. The problem is the sidewalls are so stiff they are hard to work with. The tires themselves weigh an enormous amount. I'm definitely going to try another type of all-season tire. I use the space in my van so I will not be putting a spare in (would have to buy a jack too). Not sure if the fix-a-flat really works but I hope I never have to find out. And 135.99 is not bad for a good tire. I'd jump on that deal. I used to spend that on Michelin-X's and they would give me 30000 miles +. :surprise:
  • innorristninnorristn Posts: 39
    My husband is currently at the Honda dealer who is trying to charge us $700 to fix my flat PAX tire on my 05 Odyssey. He is planning to talk to the manager to try to get some satisfaction.

    My tire went flat on the way to work this morning. The dealer is right on my way, and the warning message was displayed that I had low tire pressure and then that it was running on the PAX. I drove about 2 miles further to get to the dealer and left it with them, while I went on to work in their loaner car. They called to tell me the tire was under warranty and would be replaced, but said the technology is not yet available to replace the tire only, and that they would have to replace the wheel and tire assembly together. However, he said that the supplier would not take my old wheel because it has some scratches on it. (I'm not sure I agree with this because I haven't noticed any scratches). Since the supplier won't take my old wheel, they want to charge me $700 for a new wheel!!! The service guy told me I could file it on my insurance - like that means I don't have to pay for it? - don't they realize people have deductibles?

    I don't feel it is my problem that Honda does not yet have the equipment available in all of Tennessee to replace only the tire!?!. I'm really aggravated! I'll update after my husband comes back and let you know the resolution. If I knew then what I know now, I would never have bought an Odyssey in the first year of a new design. I had it in the shop about 30 days out of the first 120 days (4 different times) to get rattles fixed in the passenger sliding door.
  • innorristninnorristn Posts: 39
    Follow-up to PAX flat:

    The dealership manager was gone, but my husband talked to the service manager. The service manager showed my husband the scratch on the wheel. It was purely cosmetic - a place in the finish near the tire rim was scratched about 2 inches long and 1/4 inch wide. The tire went flat due to a piece of sheetmetal I apparently picked up on the interstate.

    The service manager told my husband this was their first PAX replacement and that in their training they were told that the tire distributor "The Tire Rack" would not take back any wheels with any kind of damage, including scratches. How many wheels out there are perfect after they have been driven several thousand miles? (I only had 6,200 miles on mine.)

    After my husband had been at the dealership over a half hour, I knew things weren't going well and started searching this forum. I found a Michelin number posted here: 1-877-PAX-TIRE. I called that number, and the person I talked to said that the tire was warranted for 2 years road hazard warranty and that Honda should replace the tire & wheel assembly for free. I asked him to call the dealer and tell them that. While I was on hold, he called my service rep who told him the wheel was damaged and that Honda would not take it back. He came back and told me that Michelin could not do anything since the wheel was damaged. (At that point in time I did not know the damage was purely cosmetic.) I repeated to him that I did not think I should have to pay for a wheel since only the tire needed to be replaced. He suggested I call other Honda dealers in the area to see if any of them had the equipment to replace only the tire. I did that with no luck, then called Michelin back again to tell them the results. This time I got a different person. He talked to their Consumer Relations Manager who told him that I should not have to pay for the wheel regardless of damage, and that all the wheel and tire assemblies go back to Michelin and are not re-used - therefore IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER IT IS DAMAGED OR NOT!!! I asked him to call my dealer and tell them that. He called me back and said he talked with a service rep and that they were not going to charge me. So I finally have my van back with new tire & wheel assembly for no cost - except all the frustration and time spent.

    After picking up my vehicle, I called Michelin back so they could update their file and so I could complain about Tire Rack's no scratch policy. They told me Tire Rack is working for Honda, but I told them this policy will hurt their reputation and their sales of this new tire design. I may also talk to my dealership manager and explain to him how this hurts their sales of Touring models.

    Good Luck to any other people with PAX flats! I recommend you keep the Michelin phone number handy and call them a second time if you get an unfavorable response.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    This is among the worst of a number of horror stories that have surfaced about PAX replacement hassles.

    Honda seems to have really dropped the ball on training their dealers and, as I one who owns a Touring, it is not reassuring.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    I'd be interested to know how this four-way deal between Honda, your dealer, Michelin and the Tire Rack works. Obviously, your dealer didn't want to honor the warranty because the Tire Rack can't re-sell a wheel with a cosmetic blemish. And I'm inclined to think that your dealer--not Honda USA--is the one that has some kind of arrangement with the Tire Rack, but I could be wrong. And what about the so-called 'hat box' that every dealer is supposed to have on hand?

    I'd say that Honda and Michelin need to share more information with eachother, but then I'd be repeating myself....
  • robsoorobsoo Posts: 7
    I have a 2004 Sienna XLE LTD AWD with run-flat tires.

    Recently I went shopping for a temporary spare tire (non-run flat). I read a lot on the forum and just thought that this may be a good idea for long trips. The tire store did not carry the 225/60R17 but sold me on the 215/60R17.

    I am not a tire expert but for those of you out there who knows about tires, is it okay for me to use the 215 as a "temporary" tire until I can drive my disable van to the nearest repair shop? The store manager said it was ok to use.

    Thank you very much in advance.

    Rob
  • innorristninnorristn Posts: 39
    According to Michelin, the contract with Tire Rack is between Honda and Tire Rack. It appears to me that Tire Rack is not returning the flat tire & wheel to Michelin, as I was told by Michelin that all flats were supposed to be. It appears to me that Tire Rack (perhaps in cahoots with Honda) is instead saving the used wheels so they can sell them later when the technology is available to replace only the tire. If Honda is actually paying them to replace the flat tire and wheel, then they will get paid twice - first by Honda (or as they tried in my case- by the customer) and then when they sell the wheel. Hopefully, my dealer is innocent in the rip-off, but who really knows? - they acted like they had no choice.

    And yes, according to my husband, the new wheel and tire came in the famous "hat box". But according to my dealer, they have to send back to Tire Rack an undamaged wheel in the hat box in order to get a new hat box with another new wheel/ tire assembly.
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    You might want to see the discussion we have Ask Connor at The Tire Rack. Connor answers a number of questions. When you are in that discussion, use the "Search This Discussion" box in the upper right just above the messages and search on PAX for other messages posted there.
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    You might want to see the discussion we have Ask Connor at The Tire Rack. Connor answers a number of questions. When you are in that discussion, use the "Search This Discussion" box in the upper right just above the messages and search on PAX for other messages posted there.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    the Tire Rack is involved in this at all. Seems to me the warranty is between Honda and Michelin. Maybe Connor can answer...
  • innorristninnorristn Posts: 39
    There was nothing on the Ask Conner site relating to my problem, so I left a message. I'll let you know if/when he responds. Thanks for your interest.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Posts: 792
    I drove a 2005 Sienna XLE Limited and liked it, then drove aXLE Limited with all wheel drive the next day and found the ride much rougher. I do not know if the run-flat tires deserve all of the blame, but I definitely did not buy the all wheel drive vehicle with the run flat tires!
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    The run-flats ARE to blame. It's the trade-off for AWD and run-flat capability. I expect the free market to develop a smoother riding conventional run-flat sooner than later.

    The somewhat smoother ride seems to be the ONLY benefit of PAX over conventional run-flats, and (for me) wouldn't be worth all the aggro others here have experienced regarding replacement.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    PAX offers a number of benefits. The three biggest to me are a far greater treadlife (wear rating is 500), a superb ride (comparable to conventional tires), and a longer operating range after sustaining a flat.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Well, I mentioned the better ride (based only on reviews I've read).
    The tread life rating on tires is--at best--a guess, and it isn't the only measure of how good a tire is. The OEM Michelin's on my Volvo would have probably lasted 50,000 miles, but they were so horrible in wet conditions, that I probably would have died in a crash before they wore out. And the longer operating range (100 miles vs. 50 miles) isn't much of a practical difference.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    I just have to ask...sorry...you just seem to jump all over the negative stories on these PAX tires. When the forum died down from inactivity you tried to jump start it. Why is that? There are people who don't share your fears.

    I'll agree. In the case of the poster with problems the situation was bungled. As the usage of these become more widespread I would sure hope these stories cease. That was enough to certainly scare someone off. Hopefully that place can get their act together!
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    My post #326 was the day after I read the aforementioned WSJ article, and it made me wonder out loud just how many PAX owners are unaware of their limited replacement options. I simply predicted things will get busier here as owners rack up more miles on their Tourings. You continue to make it sound as though I'm the only person on the planet with doubts about this technology. If I were you, I wouldn't necessarily interpret inactivity in this forum as proof of happy owners everywhere....

    I'm following this topic closely because I own a vehicle that is going to need new (conventional) run-flats sooner than later, and I hope the replacement options get better.

    The AWD capability of my Sienna required that the vehicle be equipped with RFT's, as there was no room for a spare. Why Honda chose to laden every top-line Touring with PAX--when there was room for a spare--is a mystery to me. Honda doesn't like to admit mistakes (and it sounds like you're a team player in that regard), but they should have made this interesting--but unproven--technology an option.
  • coachedcoached Posts: 8
    Well, I trashed my run flats today. I went with an average Bridgestone tire and it drives and rides great. I read someone on here saying that the van is designed to have run flats. Yes, it's designed for them because THERE IS NO SPARE TIRE! The AWD capabilities have nothing to do with it. You don't have to run the rfts. You just have to have a provision for getting a flat. I am going with the fix-a-flat and 12-volt compressor (and a AAA membership). I've read some negative posts on the tires I bought today but for the price of rfts I can but two or three sets of new tires.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    AWD does have something to do with it. Obviously, you can put RFT's on any car you want. But Toyota has equipped AWD Siennas with run-flats because THE DRIVESHAFT TAKES UP THE SPACE WHERE THE SPARE TIRE USUALLY GOES in FWD models. Personally, I'm not willing to carry around a spare on my roof.....
  • coachedcoached Posts: 8
    I think everyone on this thread knows why you can't fit a spare underneath the van. You obviously did not read my solution. If I receive a flat tire I will use a can or two of fix-a-flat and then inflate the tire with a portable inflator. This will allow me to get somewhere to have the tire repaired properly. Should you receive a low air signal on these rfts you would have to have your run flat replaced within 100 miles and it would cost you in the neighborhood of $250 dollars. If I have my regular tire repaired it would cost around $10. Get the picture now? I purchased new tires today with my cans and mini-inflator tucked neatly under the back seat. My van drives and rides much nicer now which is an added bonus. Optimally I would love to have a spare tire but sans a better solution this is working out swimmingly.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Your phrase "AWD capabilities have nothing to do with [there being no spare tire]" is the way the sentence reads.

    I read your solution the first time, and 'got the picture.' It sounds reasonable in certain situations. There may be instances where the damaged tire won't hold air long enough to get you anywhere.

    I don't know what-- if any-- safety or speed limitations there are with those cans of fix-a-flat. I know they pack a lot of pressure, and on a hot day you may have a little bomb tucked neatly under the back seat.
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