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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans



  • =225%2F&ratio=55&diameter=390&search=true&pagelen- =20&pagenum=1&pagemark=1&x=18&y=12


    Looks like it's empty to me. The size is listed as a category, but there are no tires under that size. There was never any snow tire for that size throughout the time. There was never any good all-season for the size ever since 1990, three short years after my 1987 535i was made, as new tire technology became available for regular sizes. In contrast, my 2001 Saab 9-5 came with regular 16" Michelin all-season tires, with piss poor snow performance as usual; however, three years later, I was able to upgrade to triple-tread Contis with much better snow roadability. Oh, the Contis were one third the price of the TRX tires. Being locked in a proprietory standards for consumables is a terrible position for the buyer. Been there, done that. I had to replace all four TRX wheels with regular 16" wheels. As they say, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
  • TRX, PAX are just a pattern of behavior typical of arrogant industrial leaders out of touch with reality. Michelin must have hired a new batch of MBA's, who figured out a "new" way to artificially create "market differentiation." If they want to honestly compete, use the same tire technology on regular sized tires. But no, they have to go out their way to create customers who will in the future be depedent on them for sheer wheel size even as tire technology moves on. Michelin is not alone in such shenigagans. Kodak comes out with reduced size films every decade and half in an attempt to sell less silver for more money even after it was clear that 35mm was well established industrial standard; 110, APS, etc.. It fails every time. But as they say, suckers are born everyday, and it's the new MBAs' job to find them and round them up amd make a killing every couple decades.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I can get four 220/55VR390 Michelin TRX blackwalls in 2 days from Reno for $844.00 from my Tire Rack link. Want me to hook you up? :-)


    I didn't specify a vehicle so maybe that's the difference.


    Brightness04, what's film? Inquiring minds....


    Steve, Host
  • $844 for those ancient rubber when I can get modern triple-tread on regular wheels for around $80 apiece? No Thanks.


    Film is that funny thing you put in light block boxes. When you open the box for fraction of a second through a porthole capped with a piece of glass (lens), you get a portrait of the person you aim the box at. Some boxes also make a sound like "kodak."
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Film? That'll never catch on.


    The TRX tires you can still get from Michelin use new raw ingredients and newer manufacturing processes (I think one of my links said that as well).


    So you have a limited edition product from 25 years ago, and you can still get parts to fit it. You do have to pay a premium, but the roll film for an old Brownie is hard to get and costs more than the 100 ASA stuff at the drug store.


    If you want the benefits of the PAX tires, you'll be able to keep replacing the rubber in years to come.


    Steve, Host
  • "New" by 1980 standards perhaps. I don't think any TRX tire offers silicate or triple tread, both are staples for tires that cost 1/3 the price of TRX.


    Sheet film cost more than 35mm (btw, both can be 100 ISO/ASA) because it is physically much larger and take more silver to make, and indeed can get much more detail than 35mm. 110 film however was a complete rip-off. It offers less silver halide jell than regular 35mm but cost more. It was a pure marketting exercise.


    An even better example of such pointless corporate exercise is IBM with its PS2 MicroChannel technology after ISA became standard. Yes, a proprietory standard can be technologically superior for a couple years, but the lack of economy of scale quickly dries up R&D money down the road, leaving the standard behind the curve in a few short years, and many upset customers to boot.
  • gkkimgkkim Posts: 17
    Wait.... Don't try those radial tires. They'll never work. Was that some 50 years ago? Digital Yup - digital photography will always be gimmicky. Personal computers - not a chance. Why would anyone each need a computer when there is one central mainframe? VHS will never beat out beta. And TRX will be successful. Don't forget HDTV either.


    For those who claim they're not adverse to new technology, that's fine. That's the decision that you've made for yourself and your family. The '05 Odyssey if for early adopters. Honda made it as part of the Touring package. You can choose to adopt it or not.


    As people have mentioned, let the consumer decide with their money. PS/2 MicroChannel, OS/2, TRX are prime example of consumer not going for it. On the other hand, we've been using a similar radial tread tire for a little while. VHS has outlaster Beta and outlasted film reels and is being replaced by DVD.
  • You write:

    "On the other hand, we've been using a similar radial tread tire for a little while. VHS has outlaster Beta and outlasted film reels and is being replaced by DVD."


    The problem with PAX is not similar in that, one is being locked into an odd size rim. Radial tires fit existing rims without any difficulty and one could always go back to tire/inner tube set up if radials didn't catch on. Radials of old are equivalent to RFTs of now, although the lack of spare and RFT replacement costs were a deal breaker for me. However, being out last night in MD in foul weather, I wished I had bought the AWD van instead of FWD.
  • At some time the PAX rft will have to be replaced.

    What is the cost, today, to replace all four tires?

    When we trade our 05 for a newer model, and let's say at that time, four new tires are needed, how will that affect the trade in value?

    It is my understanding that all three parts have to be replaced-not just one or two- of the three part construction. It is sold as a complete unit.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "I guess the 25 year old TRX fiasco will continue to be dragged through the dirt just like an Edsel?"


    Only when a PAX (or Honda) aficionado mentions the good track record of Michelin.


    IMO, Michelin would have had a much better time (and been extremely successful) if they had introduced a PAX-type RFT which ran on standard rims. Or developed a rim which could accept both PAX tires and standard tires. Then no one would be worried (rightfully or wrongly) that they would get stuck with a rim with VERY hard to locate tires.


    You'll notice that 99.9% of the griping comes NOT from the idea of PAX tires in general, but from the idea of a proprietary rim.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    If the 'three parts' you are referring to are the PAX tire, inner support ring, and PAX rim, I see no possible reason why either the inner support ring or PAX rim should require replacement. The rim is just a rim (albeit special sized to take the special tire). And so long as you haven't had a flat and therefore run on the inner support ring, I don't see why the ring should need to be replaced.


    I think you've seen some posts which indicated that if you have a flat and the Honda dealer needs to replace it, that they will replace the entire unit (tire/ring/rim). This is because the PAX tire requires special mounting equipment and most Honda/Michelin dealers don't currently have the mounting equipment. Therefore, they would have to replace the entire unit.
  • "Being replaced by DVD"?? Writes like a true novice tech buyer; the replacement of tapes by DVD was done half a decade ago, DVD itsself being replaced by new types of discs coming soon. For what it's worth, using cutting digital phot equipment is part of my job. I make decisions on what technology to buy, what to avoid on daily basis. There are common theme you can find why VHS succeeded whereas MicroChannel did not: proprietary solutions always lose to industrial standards in a competitive market. The minimal technological edge a proprietory solution may possess at launch time does not matter at all in the great scheme of things. It's only a ploy to corner a maket, and consumers know it and won't allow it to succeed.
  • Exactly!!! If PAX rims could take regular sized run flats in addition to taking PAX tires, I may well give it a try.
  • I am voting with my feet. No pax for me. I do not trust the local dealer to have a pax waiting for me. They could not be bothered to change the oil on my vehicle when I asked WRITING. Why, any PAX they had would carry an added dealer markup even if nobody wanted it.
  • I am NO technophobe. I am an engineer for a major company that tests new technologies for my livlihood. I am usually the first person using a new technology. PAX is a good technology and idea. BUT deployed poorly and is proprietary.


    Film, VHS, and HDTV all will NOT leave you stuck in the road on a cold weekend! Cameras, VCRs, and TVs are REPAIRABLE! They can be serviced by many sources. NONE of these items are made by, and controlled by, ONE company.


    By the way HDTV has taken years to become a standard and still has not been widely deployed in every house because of two major problems. One, there were too many versions of it (NOT ONE STANDARD) and is way too expensive. Kodak came out with a new camera in the eigthies that was proprietary. It was and "INSTANT" camera. Many bought them. Poloroid sued, won, and there were MANY cameras in the garbage when the film supplied dried up... LESSON can be learned here.


    PAX, had NO reason to be an odd size. VHS is only one size! There was no reason to have no donut spares or snow tires available before being made STANDARD on the Honda ODDITY Touring with NO way to use anything else, except an attempt to control "TWHEEL" sales.


    Michelin's track record for this is poor. Costs are high. Chances of PAX catching on are very if-y. I was not interested in waiting around and being the experiment. NOT on a 40K minivan. Why do I need to pay the premium for their test.


    Honda should and I BET WILL make PAX an option on Touring next year. Then the owners of the 2005 Honda "ODDITY" Touring will not be happy to be the proud owner of "THAT ONE!" This will be a pure business decision when Touring sales are lost to Toyota and others and also to the lower end model EXL as buyer realize they been cornered.


    Now if you want PAX, are aware of all the info on PAX. And still want them like the gentlemen on this forum that is disabled. You should be able to buy PAX as an option and NOT be forced. Nothing wrong with PAX technology and you know the facts. This is why I bought a Toyota Sienna XLE LTD. Since Honda gave me no choice on Touring.


    Stephen A
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    I have a strong feeling that six months from now, these conversations will cease. I think the Touring Odysseys were simply released before the interstructure for PAX tires was fully in place.


    I believe that in a few months there will be many more PAX stores and that other brands will come to market with tires that fit these wheels. I believe someone mentioned this has already happened.


    Honda is a very smart company that isn''t about to blindly grasp a new technology without careful long tern thinking and consideration. I see the use of PAX or similar systems becoming the norm in the future. I could be wrong, but only time will tell us.
  • isell, why would any business invest in the equipment and training necessary to support these tires at this time? They're only being used by one mainstream vehicle, and only on the high end model of that vehicle (the Touring Odyssey, of course). And why would other makers start making them at this time for the same reasons? A few years, possibly. But not a few months...
  • gkkimgkkim Posts: 17
    "....Writes like a true novice tech buyer."


    Brightness04 - if you'd like to talk about the technology, great. Leave the directed personal remarks out.


    Consumer will resist change. We'll see how technology evolves.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Good question. I would expect the price of the necessary equipment to drop as these become more widespread. Again, time will tell.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    And maybe BMW's in the late 80's were released before the interstructure [sic] of TRX tires was fully in place.....
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    Steve, your attempt to prove that a (limited) number of TRX tires are available at the Tire Rack thoroughly misses the point.


    The cars for which these tires were OEM equipment are now worth not much more than a set of these tires now cost.


    My brother's 1987 BMW 735i--in mint condition with barely 100K on the odo--has a blue book value of about $2,000. And I GUARANTEE you that a Mustang 5.0 of the same vintage is worth LESS than the $844 set of TRX tires you mentioned.


    The bigger problem with PAX is how the laws of economics promise to keep prices high for replacement parts of proprietary technology.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Ok, then the counter-argument is that PAX tires are worth the higher prices since they deliver features and peace of mind important to a portion of the buying public that other tires can't deliver.


    And they'll be available for a decade or two for those buyers.


    Steve, Host
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    No, Steve, - they do not, in fact, deliver anything that is unique as conventional run-flats have been in use for some time.


    PAX is merely a run-flat oddity at present.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Ok, then the counter-argument is that run-flat, self-sealing and PAX tires are worth the higher prices yada yada yada.


    I haven't priced self-sealing tires, but I understand that you pay a premium for run-flats similar to the PAX tires.


    Steve, Host
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    My point (and that of some others here) is that PAX offers no unique advantage over conventional run-flats but, at least as of now, has a couple of distinct disadvantages:


    1) No other tire in the world can be mounted on a PAX rim and


    2) There is a possibility of being stranded (for a day or two) while getting a replacement.


    Too bad Honda opted to make it standard on the Touring in the U.S. - PAX was a dealbreaker for me.
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    My guess is that the technology of the PAX rim is non-compatible with a conventional one. So an odd size was necessary to prevent someone from (inadvertently more than purposely) mounting a conventional tire tire on a PAX rim. Not unlike the reason why your LP tank on your outdoor grill screws backwards. Probably a liability issue more than anything....
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    What 'additional features' did TRX tires deliver?


    Even if they'll be available for a decade, the question is 'at what cost?' Ten years from now, the third owner of the Odyssey Touring with 125K on the odo will be swapping these rims for something else because it'll be cheaper--just like BMW and Mustang owners are doing now.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I'm not sure why I'm playing contrarian since I've always replaced my donuts with full size spares, but...


    No other tire in the world can be mounted on a PAX rim


    The percentage of people who buy rims is pretty small; even in the snowbelt most folks don't bother with mounted snowtires, but just swap them out twice a year.


    Ok, there's your lead-in for the lack of snow tires for the PAX rims <g>.



    Heywood, the advantages (additional features) of run-flats should be self-evident. Whether being able to drive on an otherwise flat tire outweighs the detriments is for your pocketbook to decide.


    Steve, Host
  • heywood1heywood1 Posts: 850
    My question was what advantages/additional features did TRX tires offer (not PAX)?
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Steve, I have no desire to further the debate (and have never mounted snow tires on a front wheel drive vehicle) - I've already decided and, as I said, PAX cost Honda the sale of one Odyssey Touring to this household.
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