Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

syswei

Assuming you are not watching the IS or GS boards, you might want to be aware that there is a general consensus among people interested in the IS that VDIM should have an on/off switch, so that the driver at his option can disable it. For example see: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=106455#25

I do understand that switching it off would have a safety impact, but I am sure Lexus could provide a label with that disclaimer.

P.S. I am not suggesting that such an option is needed for the LS. But the IS and GS, given their more sporty orientation, could use it.

oac

syswei: "But the IS and GS, given their more sporty orientation, could use it."

You are too nice to put it so mildly. Instead of "could use it", I'd say "NEEDS IT". Lexus should stop playing cop-and-robber. They either want to provide a sporty car, or want to provide a luxury car ? The LS is plenty luxurious for those inclined for such, the IS should be the complete opposite - plenty sporty, without any need for an intrusive nanny. Imagine the build quality, refinement and luxury features of an IS combined with the edgy performance of a WRX/STi or Evo in the 2006 IS350? That car will rock the world of the e90/G/Audi and re-define the sector... Suffice to say, that it'd be a winner anyday.... Why-o-why won't Lexus take their foot off the *safety-at-all-cost* for the IS and let this car be a true sport-biased luxury sedan as everyone wants it to be ???? I'll repeat myself here: LEXUS, are you listening ?????

syswei

Agreed. It is especially true with the IS that Lexus should go "all the way" with sport, because it is similar in price to the ES, so the ES can serve the cushy-ride type of buyer.

rcf8000

Before Lexus goes to 8 speeds, I'd like to see them properly program the 6 speed. It is way too anxious to upshift and way too reluctant to downshift. I am very disappointed in it.

vatvatsetho

AMEN!!!!! basically every other luxury nameplate that has, a safety system... has an override option; or isnt has 'parenting' as the Lexus systems. The last GS had this option, but it wouldn't fully turn off. why oh why cant lexus listen to its customers, and just have an 'off' switch.

jchan2

Does anybody have anything new to add?

nissman

"I also have my doubts on the CVT on the 460 and the GT versions. However it is very much possible that the 600h will have a CVT, considering that 400h has a CVT. And because that will probably reduce the quality of the ride, the 8-speed tranny, that would be a very busy shifter. I am thinking either a revised version of the 6-speed the LS has now, or a new 7-speed. "

I was following the 8-speed debate because according to clublexus it has an 8-speed:-

LS460:
Development code name: 070X
Production code name: 250L
Length: 5,100mm (vs. 5,025mm of LS430)
Width: 1,850mm (vs. 1,830mm of LS430)
Height: 1,480mm (vs. 1,490mm/1,470mm (air suspension) of LS430)
Wheelbase: 2,980mm (vs. 2,925mm of LS430)
Engine: 4UZ-FSE 4.6L V-8 (vs......well we all know)
Horsepower: 350hp @ 6,000rpm (vs. 290hp @ 5,600rpm)
Torque: 48.0kgm @ 3,300rpm (vs. 42.5kgm of LS430)
Transmission: 8-speed automatic (!!)
Fuel efficiency average: 9.5km/l (=22.35mpg, vs. 18/25mpg of LS430)

Maybe Kevin can add a comment, and tidy up the 8-speed question. I'm going to guess the LS600H 7-speed is the same as the one announced for the GS450H, I don't think it is CVT based though, which is odd as all the other Toyota hybrid trannies are CVT based.

ljflx

More LS tidbits, this one from Motor Trend :

Lexus is developing an 8-speed transmission for the 2009 LSS, the V12 stretched version of the next gen LS.

Well it seems Lexus is going that three model route, LS460, LS600H and LSS in this new generation car and with tuning options on top of that. It's what I've heard for awhile now and each new level will have rapidly increasing power plants. But this opens the door for a flood of questions. Is the stretched car only available with the V12 engine? I doubt it. It was supposed to be available in the mid level car and standard on the high-end car. Next question - Why buy a V12 when you get V12 power with V6 economy in the V8 600H? The only answer I can think of is that this LSS is their super $105-115K+ car and maybe it will be a V12 hybrid breaking newer ground still. I'll bet this LSS is the 600HP car that my dealer told me they were coming to market with. It drew a lot of disbelief here but if the 600h gets high 4's to 500 then the next level up will have to go another 100HP or more higher. Supposedly this new LSS begins production in early 2008 so it is probably an April 2008 debut as a 2009 model.

I'm still wondering if Car and Driver has it right with the LS460 debut as sping 2006. Do we really have a new LS in 9 months??

nvbanker

"A web search seems to show them working on a full-toroidal IVT with a company called Torotrak - smaller, very fuel efficient and with geared neutral (neat)."

That's it, nissman - I was a little foggy, it's been a while. I don't know when they'll get it out, but they think they can get a ton of mileage from an Expedition with this tranny, according to my friend. That's what I was referring to, please excuse my error.

idele

The Toyota top limousine is the Century with a V12 engine, a distinct traditional design and a rather staid car. I would guess that just as the Celsior (equivalent to LS) disappears from the Toyota stable, to become the new LS in the Lexus stable, the top of the line Century will also disappear from the Toyota stable, to become the Lexus LSS. Given my experience with my 12 day old RX400H I will purchase only hybrid cars in the future. I am hoping that the LS600H is, and I believe it will be, the production version of the LF-S shown Los Angeles earlier this year.

syswei

Thanks for that info, I don't get MT. This is the first indication I think we've had that the 2007 cars might not have a LWB option.

My bet is that the 2007 comes in the fall not spring of 06.

lexusguy

Yeah thats what Im thinking too. September or October.

ljflx

It's very clear in the brief that the LSS is a stretched version of the next gen LS and not the Century, which is a totally different car. The Century is hardly a car that Lexus would come out with in the middle of an image change. If the Century ever makes it here, which is a close to zero chance, it won't wear a Lexus badge. Stories of a stretched LS have been carried for a long time now and Lexus almost put one out in 2001.

mikegiller

The Century will not disappear from the Toyota stable since Kevin is currently working on the new V12, and the design for that car. It will be newly designed for 2007/8 still as the Toyota Century. What indication do you have that the Century Limousine will become the performance super LS?

ljflx

I was thinking that too and was surprised to see C&D note a spring 2006 debut. But business wise it may be smart to hit the S-class head-on. That is not a potent looking new S-class either. I'd say it's quite vulnerable. I guess we'll get the real details at the Tokyo auto show.

lexusguy

"That is not a potent looking new S-class either"

No, it isnt. Its a baby Maybach with a cut-and-paste BMW 7 interior. If I were BMW, I'd either be very flattered, or angry.

chris65amg

The S600 and higher trim levels are a sitting duck, as is the 760iL. The XJ extended length one (is it Vanden Plas?) may also suffer. Come to think of it, I think they all would if a super LS stretched came out.

idele

Quote: "What indication do you have that the Century Limousine will become the performance super LS?"
Rational thought. I stated it was a guess. Given that Lexus will have 180 dealers in Japan and it is established as Toyota's premium brand , I would think it doubtful to have the top of the line car labeled a Toyota. But as I said I'm only guessing. I bought TM stock (ADR's consisting of 2 Japanese shares) about a month ago when I ordered my RX400h and as of today it's up 5.13 per cent. That beats waiting for bigger discounts on the RX400h.

jack27

Aisin/Equos have had over 60 engineers working on Torotrak toroidal IVT for at least 18 months and a Toyota Celsior has been at Torotrak's UK facilities recently - it was apparently fitted with IVT and on test. Note: the Toyota Celsior is not distributed in the UK.

It is a strong possibility that the LS430 will appear with a toroidal IVT before long and the 2007 model is an attractive proposition for Torotrak followers.

Should the Toroidal IVT get into volume production it is expected to be cost competitive and smaller than equivalent 6sp AT with significantly (12%+) better fuel economy, smoother and with better performance.

oac

I'm still wondering if Car and Driver has it right with the LS460 debut as sping 2006. Do we really have a new LS in 9 months??

Much as I am inclined to disagree with C&D on their 2007 LS release timeline, I am looking at the 2006 GS and 2006 IS releases as proof that this may indeed be the case.

For the 2006 GS twins, Lexus disclosed the designs in the summer of 2004, and about 9 months later, it hit dealership floors in March of 2005. The 2006 IS design was first disclosed in January 2005, and is expected to hit dealership showrooms in October; also nine months after release. So why won't the LS go the same route ? Besides, it gives the competition less time to counter whatever Lexus does with this new car, and will fit in the plan for an 18-month refresh cycle (Mar '05 --> Sep '06) for the new GS with the swap of the GS430 for GS460 (and also for the GS300 --> GS350) by Fall of 2006 as MY2007 releases.

That's what my tea leaves sayz.....

nissman

Do we really have a new LS in 9 months??

I thought it was the GS 450H that was due out in 9 months. Thought I'd have a look for the specs and can't find any. Anyone?

mfpr

I believe the '07 ES350 is due to be released in the Spring of '06 and the '07 LS460 in the Fall.

syswei

GS450h specs so far...pretty vague in some respects:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050323d

mikegiller

Keep in mind, those "specs" were released exactly 4 months ago, around the time of the showing of the car.

edspider1

You'll all say I'm nuts, but I'd like to see something like an LS 350H. Rather than the "power of a V12 in a V8", give me 350HP in a gas/hybrid. I would rather have a small V8 with Hybrid getting 40mpg rather than a 600HP getting 25mpg. It's not that I'm a penny pinching tree hugger. It's just that I like Lexus for comfort - not acceleration. I expect gas to be around $4/gallon during the 3 years of owning a 07 LS. I don't like the idea of spending an extra $2000 for gas over the 3 year lease just to go faster when there is an opening in traffic.

nissman

"pretty vague in some respects"

Thanks syswei. I thought I'd check the tranny details to see if it was a 7-speed or a CVT, but it seems we know more about the LS600H than the GS450H. Strange in some ways.

lexusguy

Nothing the size and weight of a Lexus LS can get 40mpg, not in the real world. The GS450h will use a 3.5L V6 and electic motors for "V8" power. I'd say best case scenario for that car would be 35mpg, only driving in the city and using a feather light touch on the gas pedal. Hybrids are not miracle workers.

oac

Nothing truly wrong with that suggestion, except that it moves the LS further down market to the Bimmer 5/E350 level. This level is occupied by the GS twins, so the LS needs to remain up-market and even super-size the level a little. If the LS is to remain as the Lexus flagship car, then it needs to carry a torch to the very highest of the market, so as to pull up the others. The 2007 LS starts that upward migration. It is not to strange that indeed, we know more about the LS600H than we do about the GS450H.

But on a more rhetorical point: Who needs a 450HP LS600H on freeways set to 70mph ? That's why I am leaning towards the base LS460 with 350HP. That should be plenty for me already. My current 290HP LS400 is equally plenty in acceleration and passing power.

lexusguy

There's also a minimum amount of power and acceleration that buyers in this market are willing to accept in the full size lux class. For example, everyone is questioning MB for bringing back a V6 to the S class. Jaguar says they are working on a diesel XJ... that will need 8 seconds+ to hit 60mph. I just dont see anybody in America buying that. Not necessarily because its diesel, but because thats just too slow.

idele

From Nikkei news:
"Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) plans to roll out next summer the top-end model of its Lexus brand, the LS, with a price tag of more than 10 million yen, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun learned Wednesday. "
At the current exchange rate the top end model in dollars is $89285.

ljflx

They use 105 yen to the dollar for the US as their pricing mechanism. There budgets etc are based on that - for this year at least - as they've said that in past public financial disclosures.

idele

I used 112 yen to the dollar; the current exchange rate on Bloomberg is 112.4. The price quoted of 10 million yen might include the Japanese 5% sales tax. In any case, the top end will challenge MB, BMW and Audi and, in my opinion, will be superior. I'm enormously pleased with my Lexus hybrid and plan to purchase only hybrids. I vastly prefer a sedan and expect to get an LS hybrid when my 2 year single pay lease is up.

mikegiller

Does anyone have some new information? This LS forum is dying :sick:

SAE horsepower for the 2006 LS 430 is 278 HP which is the same as 290 HP. From this we can get that the old system (DIN ?) has a 4.32% increase over SAE. Since the IS 350 is rated with SAE HP, using the 4.32% advantage the old system has over the new SAE, we get:

IS 350: 319 HP (USA) - SAE: 306
323 HP (CAN) - SAE: 310
IS 250: 213 HP (USA) - SAE: 204
210 HP (CAN) - SAE: 201

So, in the States, it turns out that the HP didn't go down at all on the IS 250... it remains the same, relatively. The only difference is the torque; that went down.

Lexus is getting modest with their numbers.

oac

Mike:

Do you think Lexus applied the SAE to the 3L 245HP output in the 2006 GS300 ? I'd think not, so why apply it to the new IS twins ? For marketing sake, especially in HP-hungry NA market, I would have liked to see the IS350 come in at 320HP and the IS250 at 215HP. That would really give Lexus a HUGE advantage to its competition, just on the face of it.

BTW, the LS460 is projected to have a 350HP, hopefully that is SAE-based rating.

lexusguy

Lexus has always been relatively modest with its numbers. The LS is faster than its 290hp (now 278) would suggest.

mikegiller

... :surprise: ...Lexus already stated that the new IS is rated in SAE output.

syswei

http://asklexus.caranddriver.com/

pearl

as usual, Lexus has made little known about the upcoming 4.6L V8; however, we should expect that, beyond expanding displacement from 4.3 to 4.6L, they will at least add the technologies found on the new 3.5L V6: continuously variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust cams (as opposed to only the intake cam on the 4.3), some sort of variable intake air management to permit maximum air flow at high rpm and a more focused flow at lower rpms (Mercedes uses a "tumble flap" design on their 3.5L V6), possibly some form of direct fuel injection (which could also permit a higher compression ratio). Coupled with the increased displacement, such an engine should easily produce 350hp or more, plus lower emissions and probably increased fuel economy. If Lexus further enhances their automatic transmission, perhaps by adding a seventh gear, then even with increased overall vehicle weight, we could be looking at a faster, more economical car, with lower emissions. I hope we hear something on this engine fairly soon. It has mostly gotten lost in the shuffle with the anticipation of the LS600h, but in my opinion, the 460 may be the 'best of the best".

lexusguy

Thats basically what I'm expecting with the new motor. I'm pretty sure its a completely new V8, and not a bump like the 4.0 to 4.3. The LS460 should have at least 7 forward speeds.

oac

Agree. Speculation has the 4.6L at ~350 HP and about same in torque. Kevin already speculated a 7-speed tranny, but who knows... may be that is scheduled for the 600H and not the base LS460. Even with a carry-over 6-speed to the '07 release, and with increased weight, the car should do the low-to-mid-5s 0-60. That is plenty speedy for all but the most power hungry buyers. And that's what the LS600H will satisfy - speed and economy (mpg).

lexusguy

Based on reaction to the RX400h, I think the LS600 should do well. The one area where I think Lexus made a mistake was deciding to make the GS450 RWD. If they instead made it AWD (with electric motors driving the fronts instead of the rears as in the RX400), there would not be such an overlap with the GS460, and it would also give them a car to compete with the A6 4.2 and E500 4matic, something nobody else has.

mikeroch

Hi all,

Sorry if this has been addressed before, but is there any indication (or perhaps "confirmed" information) as to whether the LS460 will be all wheel drive?

Thanks

syswei

About a year ago I read something from Lexus suggesting that its hybrid vehicles would all be AWD. Since the GS450h will be RWD, I guess they changed their minds.

Personally I think they should put AWD on at least some versions of the 2007 LS.

Kevin if you read this, add AWD to the wishlist. Speaking for myself, the reason I don't own an LS now is the lack of AWD. If the 2007 LS lacks AWD I won't be a customer, and maybe would turn to Infiniti (depending on what the next Q is like and if it has AWD) or, heaven forbid, a German make.

idele

The concept LF-S is an AWD hybrid with rather sleek styling. I hope that it's the prototype of
the prospective LS600h.

oac

If one follows the logic of the new '06 releases (IS and GS), it is clear that Lexus provides AWD on the lower trim models (GS300 and IS250). One can then speculate that the LS460 will have an AWD option since it will be the lowest trim of the LS model - LS460, LS600H, and potentially a higher-end $100K+ LS. I'd be hard pressed to expect the 600H as an AWD, being that the GS450H is also a RWD.

syswei

That makes sense. I think what Lexus does is put options that it expects to have a less than 50% take rate on the higher volume (= lower end) variants...so maybe I'll end up in a LS460awd.

On the other hand, now that they've had more time to see how the comptetition is spreading AWD around, maybe they'll start to make AWD a more widespread option themselves. One can hope anyway.

idele

The fact remains that the LF-S is an awd hybrid. Extrapolating from the IS and GS programs to the LS program is speculation. Here's another speculation: Lexus participates in F1 racing: F1 rules do not exclude hybrids or can be changed; sucess in F1 establishes hybrids as performance vehicles .......etc. etc. etc. Also, to my knowledge F1 vehicles are awd.
I live in a very mild climate. I first got awd with the initial RX300. I discovered that it gives you better control and, even with an extreme paucity of snow, awd prevents aquaplaning and we get plenty of rain. For my next two cars I bought awd Audis, an A6 4.2 and Allroad 2.7T. The latter was actually a better vehicle. From my experience Audi doesn't match Lexus quality. Hybrids make great sense to me so I've acquired an RX400h, the only available performance hybrid and fortunately awd, too It is a very superior vehicle well worth the premium price. What I want is an awd hybrid sedan and the LF-S is it.

lexusguy

Makes sense to me. I think there's a definite possibility that Acura may offer the RL as a hybrid, so that could be a possible option.

nexuslexus

I would agree with one of the earlier comments that the reason I don't have an LS (I actually have an ES instead) is because AWD is not available on the LS. While I would prefer AWD to FWD on the ES and the Avalon (I have had both), it is not available on the LS, and RWD isn't acceptable in the hills of Michigan.

I am waiting for the 2007 Lexus to come out with AWD, but if it doesn't then I will be forced to turn away from Lexus and to Infiniti (the M35x is better than the GS300 AWD) or even to Mercedes if their new S-Class has *MUCH* better reliability. I would hate to have to do that, so Kevin if you could let us know, and if you could put that on the wish list, that would be great (in fact, if there was one improvement to be made to the LS it would be AWD).

sv7887

Hi NexusLexus,
I've driven my 92 LS for years in the snow here in New England. I'd venture to say the hills around here are quite nasty too...Have you tried a set of Bridgestone Blizzak tires? I have them on my 1992 and Michelin Artic Alpins on my '05 LS.

You wouldn't believe how well they perform. I have quite a steep driveway and it makes it up in about 4" inches of snow. I've come to think that most of this AWD is a fad made up by some genius Marketing team. Has anyone noticed that every Taxi and Police car is a RWD car? I used to own a Toyota Tercel as a winter beater car but then someone recommended the Blizzaks to me.

Just a thought,
SV