Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

mikegiller

Also to add: The LS430 (4.3L) can out-accelerate a Q45 (4.5L) with .2 more displacement and 55 more HP (345 HP) which is a big feat itself, it brings to the attention just how fast the new LS models will be! :surprise:

navigator89

I just hope they improve the looks and handling of the car, two important features in this segment. Lexuses have never been known for handling, so hopefully there will be some improvement there. The looks of the car right now aren't offensive, but just boring. It would be nice to give it the touches it needs to look athletic.

Finally I hope Lexus brings out a long wheelbase version with maybe a V12. Most of its competitors have one.

nvbanker

It's not that big - that's all I said, Quite the flame job for stating a fact, I think.

I LIKE the LS-430, I'm currently shopping for one, I think they are the best driving Sedanola on the planet - I merely stated that they aren't that big! And they're not, especially inside. I feel cramped in there.

Lighten up, people. Of course, it's nice to know you're all awake. :P

lexusguy

Anyone else see the bit on the LS600h in July's R&T? They say its going to use a 4.6L with 400hp, no mention of the rumored 5.0. Also, the cg picture doesnt look anything like the sketch. It has Scion tC headlights and an IS350 body style.

chris65amg

I read that R&T. I really hope that they have the LS500 though. It seems to be a keeper. The LS500 would be an 8-cylinder, yes? Because it wouldn't entirely surprise me if they sprung out a V-10, because that's what they are tenatively planning for the supercar. I thought that the LS500 pic said it was a V8 but I might just be blowing steam.

syswei

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_07_Lexus_LS_Sedan.S178.A87- 87.html

maxhonda99

Toyota is merely using the current LS's shell to test hardware for the next LS. It's not like the 2007 LS will BE the EXACT same exterior as the current LS.

syswei

I thought it was maybe someone's joke photoshop work, but I see what you're saying about it possibly being a test shell. Though if that's the explanation I don't understand what the rear fender flare would be for. Lexus engineers playing a joke on MB?

ljflx

Let's remember these Lexus people treat every new design like its Top Secret. Only OAC's [non-permissible content removed] auto mag has gotten their hands on that sketch so far and it indeed looks more like a new LFS car than anything anyone else has published. I wonder who's not working at the company as a result.

Wbwynn - Never doubt the LS is all I can say. This 2007 model is going to really blow us away though. But I'm loving every second I drive my 2004 car. But so is my wife who dumped the GX on me and violated our agreement that the LS was mine and the GX was hers.

lexusguy

Remember the pictures of the next Jaguar XK, when it was just an XJ sedan with the rear doors chopped off? This is definitely NOT the next LS, Lexus is most likely just testing the next platform.

chris65amg

I agree. It's probably only a test shell. After all, Lexus usually keeps pretty mum about stuff until the absolute last minute. The rear fender stuff and modifications are probably so they can fit what they need to under the LS's current shell. They hinted hybrid....

motownusa

Doesn't Toyota have a V12 powered car for their domestic market ? I know they used to have one couple of years back.

motownusa

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Toyota+Century

It is an interesting car but unfortunately it is only sold in Japan's home market. The styling is very conservative and dated and if Toyota really wants this car as an alternative to Rolls and Bently that is something they have to improve upon. Also Japanese regulation forbids Horspower from exceeding 280 and that is one reason the Century produces only 280 Hp from a 5.0L V12 engine, although I am not sure if that rule is still in effect.

lexusguy

There hasnt been a 280hp cap in Japan for a few years now. I'm not sure when exactly it was dropped, but its gone. Nismo's final R-34 Skyline GT-R Z-tune, for example, makes 500hp and 398lb.ft of torque out of 2.8L and some very big turbos.

nvbanker

I'm thinking that's a mule - which will test the new powerplant and platform for the new LS, but doesn't have the full body on it yet.

jchan2

makes the car sound good.

Problem Number 1: I can't afford to buy an LS, S-Class, or 7-Series. Darn.
Problem Number 2: If I could afford the LS, It wouldn't fit into my garage.

chris65amg

I have the same problem. My wife told me that $45k is my cap or she'll burn all of my food for the rest of my life

lexusguy

Well, that doesnt mean you cant have a 2007 LS460 in maybe 2010 or so. There isnt a more reliable used car in the world.

syswei

A poster on CL links to a Taiwanese online car rag, Autonet, which he says is reputable and doesn't make things up. According to Autonet, the LS460 will have 350hp, 362 lb-ft, and an 8 spd transmission.

for paid members that read Chinese:
http://www.autonet.com.tw/cgi-bin/n...gi?qry=a5060200

chris65amg

*blinks twice*
What? 8 speeds??

Are you sure? Whoa. I had heard rumors of a 7 speed, but there aren't any 8 speeds on the market yet! That would be odd. You sure?

syswei

That's the claim in the article....some guys on that thread thought maybe they were counting reverse and neutral as "speeds", but someone else pointed out "it did say in Chinese in the last paragraph that the 8 speed auto is a major weapon & is superior to the 7 speed of the Benz".

I don't think it's all that big a deal anyway, as you keep adding more gears the incremental performance/mpg benefits diminish....going from 7 to 8 isn't as important as going from 4 to 5.

chris65amg

It's more of a psychological weapon than a real-life one, but I do like the MB 7 speeds and how the torque seems more evenly spread with it as opposed to a 5 or 6.

Still, one can see the difference that another gear makes. An LS430 accelerates 0-60 faster than a much more powerful Q45 which has a 5-speed. But mostly it will be for bragging rights, if the 8 speeder ever comes.

syswei

I wish they would go with a CVT, but maybe it's not yet feasible to pair one with such a powerful engine.

maxhonda99

I would expect the hybrid LS will get a CVT transmission. And the RX400h has a CVT. The RX400h produces alot of torque so building a CVT for the LS hybrid shouldn't be a problem.

callmedrfill

And an 8-speed would certainly add interest to an already interesting benchmark.

They had to get that from somewhere. It's not the kind of tidbit you make up.

I'll buy that for a dollar!

The only problem with that is the city MPG will drop with 1st gear being much lower than in, say, a 5-speed auto. The first two gears will be very low, improving acceleration, but sacrificing efficiency. :surprise:

But Hwy MPG may reach 30MPG! 17/30? May produce a net gain, even after a 60HP increase. Interesting....interesting...... :confuse:

DrFill

lexusguy

If I recall correctly, the LS430 beat the Q45 in acceleration back when the LS was using the old 5-speed. The Q has the power, but Infiniti really dropped the ball in terms of gearing. Just look at the difference between the Q and the new M.

callmedrfill

They've swung and missed when the game was on the line!

I would be surprised if the LS lost ANY EPA numbers, even with more power. I think 19 MPG city is a minimum. 'Yota is not about to drop the mileage ball now.

DrFill

oac

350HP
362Ibft
8-spd

0-60 ..... 5s flat ??? Doesn't sound too unreasonable afterall the '04 LS430 with 290HP/310Ibft/6-spd does 0-60 at 5.9s.

But why 8-spd ? I mean, going from 6-spd to 8-spd bypassing MB's 7-spd route is kinda interesting. What does the 8-spd do better than what a 7-spd tranny would do ? Maybe as DrFill suggested, lower in-city MPG, higher highway MPG, while remaining a SULEV with EPA ratings. We'll see how all these turns out, but if true, Lexus would be doing something no one expected.... certainly not many Lexus-ophiles.

mikegiller

:shades:

lexusguy

I'll believe an 8-speed automatic when I see it. I would expect 0-60 in under 6.5 seconds, but 5 flat sounds like wishful thinking. It depends on how much weight the new LS puts on.

ljflx

The current car is 6 seonds flat. So under 6.5 has occurred ages ago. I think you'll be looking at 5.5-5.7 with 5.0 on the GT version. Lexus is really going to turn up the heat here. 8 speed? - either something for the marketing folks or something to just temporarily trump MB's 7 speed or perhaps something truly revolutionary. But I'd lead towards the first two because I think Lexus intent here is to show how serious they are pushing performance and that their strategy is shifting away from SUV's and back to cars. Remember 2007 is the debut of a global branding led by the flagship car. Expect a lot of surprises from a company that has the financial ability to do whatever it wants.

oac

I am guessing LG meant 5.6s (not 6.5s) cos 6.5 is so old history. Even my '99 LS does better than a 6.5, eh ! Last I read, the LF-A is expected to run to 60 under 5s, at least that was the speculation on the concept. So if the GT (LF-A) is ever built and released, I'd expect that car to do the 5s or under. The LS500 should do a flat 5s 0-60, assuming the expected HP to come in at 400. I sure hope so, although I'd be glad for a 5.5-5.7s 0-60 on the LS460 since that is my target buy.

Remember 2007 is the debut of a global branding led by the flagship car...

Will that be calendar or MY ?

syswei

Going back to Kevin's post
yamamurakelvin, "2007 Lexus LS" #317, 16 Jun 2005 10:51 pm

he does mention a 7-speed...so I am inclined to believe him over the Taiwanese trade rag. But maybe if Kevin finds the time, he can further clarify this.

chris65amg

Either a 7 or 8 speed is good IMO.

""Expect a lot of surprises from a company that has the financial ability to do whatever it wants.""

Can't help but be surprised, Lexus keeps the lid on their models pretty darn well.

lexusguy

Yeah I was thinking 5.6. I can understand Honda's decision to finally kill the NSX, the LF-A would mop the floor with it.

lexusguy

Is this the same kind of CVT that we've seen before? If so, 8-speeds, 10-speeds, whatever, doesnt really matter, because they aren't physical gears. A selected "gear" on a CVT is just a static point, rather than being variable. By definition, a CVT has an almost infinite number of speeds.

syswei

Post #400 was not put there by me, yet it says "by syswei". What is going on?

Kirstie_H

I don't know - maybe system glitch, maybe you used a computer somewhere and auto-login was enabled? I will delete the post since it's not yours. Please let me know if it happens again.

mariner7

""Expect a lot of surprises from a company that has the financial ability to do whatever it wants.""

Spending all that money and getting results can be two different things! Look at Toyota F1, which reportedly has more money to spend than anyone. Despite a promising start to the season, now Toyota is in no danger of securing its first ever victory, and is mid pack at best. BTW, BAR Honda is currently much more competitive.

I can't believe how the rear deck of the new LS resembles 5 series. I guess now Lexus fans will have to praise the 5 looks now!

atlas7

not wild about the looks of the LS 600 photo, don't see the resemblance to the BMW 5....that rear end is BUTT ugly

chris65amg

really feeling the back end either, but I think it looks better than the 5 Series .

oac

really feeling the back end either, but I think it looks better than the 5 Series

What back end of the LS are you guys talking about ? The back end is not visible or discernible from that pic, so I don't know where you are getting the 5-series resemblance from ???? I think we have to reserve our judgement on what the new LS will look like. The pic posted here is only a sketch, and the final product will definitely be different. Just a few more months to its debut at the October Tokyo Auto Show where Lexus promises to reveal the new LS styling. Then we'll see whether this car will be all that Lexus promises it would be....

flkey

My understanding of the CVT ops. is a male cone and female cone engaging with power applied, infinite ratios result. Seems to me transfer of power would be limited by available friction to stay engaged, thereby limiting throughput torque.
How 'bout 2-spd rear axle in combo w/6spd. Wow, have your cake'n'eat it too.
The best performance, it seems to me, is the clutchless manual trans, way too sophisticated for a luxo Lexus.
'03 LS
COCOON

lexusguy

"way too sophisticated for a luxo Lexus"

But not too sophisticated for a luxo Maserati? Toyota easily has the resources to develop an SMG for the LS...if they wanted to use one. SMG's make bad automatics, and thats what LS shoppers want, a smooth, seemless shifting automatic. How many tenths of a second the transmission can shift in is not a big issue.

nissman

The Nissan 8-speed for the Skyline is a toroidal CVT, the ultimate in a trany ( eg not allowed in Formula 1) v expensive, they order them specially. No way LS will get one of those trany's.

ljflx

Given the LS leads everyone else by a wide margin in sales year after year - I would safely say the results were achieved a long time ago. Now they are taking the ante way up with the car that got them here in the first place. If there is a gamble they may fail on its their sports car. The next LS is money in the bank.

ljflx

Car and Driver has some data on page 91 of the August issue that left my mouth agape. First of all they are saying the LS600H will deliver V12 power with V6 economy. Heard that before but nice to see re-affirmation. Second the picture shown looks like a photo-chop of the GS but has a good deal of resemblance to OAC's picture with somewhat of a much better looking 5-series tail light treatment. Very sporty, muscular athletic look but with sufficient retention of the stately front end the car always had. I think this is simply C&D's conception of what the car will look like and I think we are getting something very close to OAC's drawing given that we got some confirmation of that drawing from our Lexus friends on the board. Next - this one really got me and left my mouth stuck in the open position - the price will be around $75K. This is for the 600H not the base car loaded up. Next they say it will be a 350HP gas engine (so there's your answer on the base engine HP) paired with a high output electric motor (this is the next gen electric motor Lexus talked about 18 months ago) producing - in C&D's words - a healthy 500HP. Car is due in late 2007. My lease is due in April 2007. Guess I'm doing a 6 month extension and going on this waiting list as soon as one is available..

oac

Len:

Thanks for that quick heads-up wrt the C&D article. I have to go get the article, obviously.

Assuming *some* of the writings borne out true, that car will be an outstanding hit... maybe a home run car for Lexus. Geez ! A V12-like 500HP super luxury sedan at $75K ????? How can Lexus make money selling that car so ridiculously priced ?? Can they build enough to meet market demand for such a car at such a low price-point ? And if the LS600H starts at $75K, maybe the LS460 will retail in the mid-$60K at best. That would be great for me. I can live with 350HP since the freeway speed limits won't be going up beyond 70MPH anytime soon

What I find most interesting is that the news tid bits and sketches are not about the base SWB LS460 but the super lux LS600H. Why is there so much noise about this car rather than its lower-engined sibling ? Must be a strategy to get the public salivating about a higher performance Lexus so as to bring in the crowd to dealerships, to sell more than their fair share of the lower-engined cars. Sounds like a good strategy to me - putting your best foot forward.

syswei

Haven't seen the article, but I am skeptical on the price. I remember Clements saying maybe a year ago that "there's lots of room to move the LS up" [in price]. If they're going to go up against 120-130k S600s and 760Lis, they really don't need to price at 75k, imho...90-100k would work and still present good value and probably provide a better halo effect. I do agree that the LS460 should be in the low-mid 60k range. Time will tell.

ljflx

Well - awhile back I was told that there were going to be 3 LS cars. The base gas engine, a gas hybrid and a super LS. It seemed to me that the gas car was only going to be around for a short 2-3 year period. Maybe the 600H is the middle car. It was supposed tp be mid 300's on HP for gas, then mid 400's for the first level hybrid and then something like 600HP or more for the next one and that may be the GT version produce in limited amounts. That latter car wopuld be comparable to a S600AMG and would undercut it by $65K. If the mid level car is the 600H it could simply be an ultra plus electric motor and then have a LWB option. The ultra is in the $71K range and the battery has always been an extra 2-3K. Lexus makes plenty of money on a $75K LS600H and provides a major pricing problem and enormous headache for the Germans.

OAC - there is a whole story on 2007 cars in this C&D. But if the LS is the only thing you want to read about just peruse page 91 at a newstand as the tidbit on the LS is really small.