Long-term - if I'm Lexus - I make the 600H become my standard car and give the LS460 a short 3 year run. That way you are selling an ultra plus battery at every turn in the mid 70's. Perhaps you have a slightly lesser equipped one in the $70K range when you terminate the LS460. Then you mate the V10 slated for the LF-A sports car with a powerful battery for their super LS and price that in the 90's. This car gets you 600+HP and is Clements old V12 strategic car. This also adds bells and whistles not available on the 600H. Lastly you have an AMG like optioned GT tuned car priced in the $110K range. Both of the latter cars arrive in 2008. Simply put they are the cost of doing business when you become a global player and want to change your image. Some of this flows down to the GS as well and possibly the SC. The strategy on the SC is hard to figure out until they make a decision on where they are going with the LF-A .
What you're saying is possible, that the 600h will be mainstream and perform like the S600/760 but undercut them bigtime on price. But its also possible that the LS mainstream hybrid might have a powertrain like the GS450h (V6 + battery), and that the 600h will be more like 90-100k. Personally I don't see the need to pay 90k+ for hp I don't need, so if they have 2 hybrid versions the lower end is going to be fine for me.
Completely agree. But that's why I say it's the cost of doing business. The $90-115K hybrids are not for the masses But they will be there for halo effect and image and the crowd that has to have a car like it. Lexus has not had an alternative for that car buying crowd. I seriously doubt that you'll ever see a V6 hybrid in the LS. That would have been possible if they stayed on the course they had in 2001 but it cuts against the grain when you are changing your image. But I do think it's quite possible that you will see pure hybrid offerings on the LS in the future.
Let us assume that Lexus wants to match its competition car-for-car, so what do we have ?
S350 => LS460 SWB/LWB (4.6L 350HP) *seemed wrong to compare a V6 MB to V8 from Lexus, but they should be priced about same* S500/750i/750iL =>LS500 (4L 400HP) S600/760iL => LS600H LWB (V8+Battery, 500HP) SL55/SL65 => LSXXX GT (V10+Battery = 600+HP)
Does the above make sense ? I am just wondering about the Lexus strategy here viz MB and BMW. They have to compete against these giants, and yet re-define a global image and brand for the next LS models.
Forget the MB S350, I doubt it remains around very long. It'll be the LS600H vs an S500 and 750LI , an LS460 vs an S430 and 750I and a super LS hybrid vs S600 and 760LI. The GT, if it comes will go up against the S65/55 AMG's and may be available in more than one of the LS variants. That's how I'd see it.
Competing against the S65 (strange, its actually 6.3 L engine) is going to be tough for the GT version. However, the S65AMG will probably cost over 150k.....
Maybe you know much more about this subject than I do - but Ford is working with the toroidal CVT according to an engineer friend - and if they can afford it, Toyota can surely afford it, and the LS would be the place to deploy it.
I just got my RX400h a few days ago on a single pay two year lease. All the surprises so far have been on the upside. Nothing compares. At the end of two years I fully expect to get an LS600h. If the car is as projected I expect a price of 100 kilobucks or more and I believe it will be worth it. Even today an equipped BMW750i runs around 80 kilobucks.
Why not? Toyota has a heck of a lot more money than Nissan\Renault, or any other automaker on the planet. They can do pretty much whatever they please.
I have read through many of the messages posted and I only have on thing to say. The New LS and its many configurations will simply blow away the S-class and the BMW 7 Series. These two pieces of over priced German scrap metal will become obsolete once Lexus unleashes the new LS for the year 2007. Both of these makes have gotten away with over charging the public for their imperfected experiments for far to long. The Japanese by far are superior builders when it comes to quality and that is the bottom line. The Germans may have had a jump when it comes to performance, but that will all end over the next decade. The Japanese have been very patient for many years focusing on building a name brand that is superior in quality to its competitors. That was Phase One - Lexus. Now they will launch Phase Two - which not only incorporates Superior Quality, but Superior Performance. With the launch of the new LS, Lexus will engage the Germans in a head to head battle for Superiority in Quality and performance. The German car builders have focused primarily on performance and have sacrificed a great deal in the area of Quality. Quality is much tougher to achieve than performance and takes a great deal more engineering expertise that the Germans do not posses (Reproducablity). The Japanese have studied and worked tirelessly over the past several decades not only producing the worlds best quality products, but engineering the worlds best products in their design phase. Now that they have accomplished the quality phase, Lexus will launch an attack one the Germans that will be relentless over the next two decades. They will not only produce Cars and SUV's that will out perform their German Competitors, they will also up the anttie in quality, electronic's and systems integration and will become a leader in the area of safety. With the introduction of their New High Performance HyBrid Engines, they will completely obsolete whatever comes out of Germany. Our good friends at M-Benz and BMW have been on the run for several years. It has caused them to produce Inferior Quality High Performance cars that are based on looks rather than sound principles, that will maintain customer loyalty and higher resale values. Lexus is cash rich and will spare no expense in Phase Two - two build high quality, high performance, cutting edge styling cars in the future. The German car makers have gotten away with producing inferior quality cars for far too long and now they will have to pay for their lack of attention in this area. The new LS will send a strong statement to all of its German and American competitors alike. They know now and always have, that Lexus is the most superior automobile that has ever been built. They have criticized their styling and lack of performance, but now they will see what Lexus has instore for them now. The new LS along with many of the new designs to come, will put the rest of the world on notice that their is a New Master of Performance in town and they're here to stay. If the Benz and BMW fans don't belive it, tell them to wait and see, because the best is yet to be. The German and American car makers are shaking in their boots right now in anticipation of the introduction of the new LS. They know now just as they did when Lexus first introduced the LS over a decade ago, that this will be a superior product for them to dismantle, learn from and try to replicate. People talk about how LEXUS borrows styling tips from their competitors and incorporates them into their designs, but how many of their competitors are borrowing and trying to replicate the superior engineering that Lexus has designed into their engines and electronic systems? How many of them have even come close to the superior quality and systems contained in the LS and been able to reproduce them for the same price? The Answer is NONE!!! They can not and will not match what Lexus is about to do to them. They Do not have the money, expertise or drive that Lexus has and will demonstrate over the next two decades. The Super Sedan War is on and I'm betting all of my eggs on Lexus. Are there any Benz or BMW takers out there? If so, you're as foolish as the rest of the German Car Idiot's out there. Continue to purchase substandard cars that are over priced, with poor quality, and don't maintain their value as well as Lexus. I guarantee you'll be left in the dust literally as the new Lexus products zip by you on the highway leaving you in their dusty wake as they move on to their next destination. All I have to say to the Benz & BMW crowd is, Bye!!! When you see and experience the new LS, you'll be experiencing the death of the German Auto Makers and their over priced JUNK!!! For all of you LOYAL LEXUS FANS, get ready for the changing of the guard, it will be sweet watching Lexus finally shutting the mouths of the German car fools. We welcome any challenges that they pose and will gladly accept their futile attempts to compete with the New Performance Master, LEXUS. That's all I have to say!!!
Welcome to the board. You use some pretty strong words. Personally, I think Lexus will continue to gain market share against the Germans, but isn't about to "blow them away". MB and BMW still have an edge in status, which matters to alot of buyers, and isn't likely to fade quickly. And while accelaration times, HP, and torque are important, they aren't the only defining characteristics of 'performance'. Germancarfans will tell you that Lexus is still lacking in the 'handling' department. We know nothing on that score yet, when it comes to the LS460/600.
You might be interested in another couple of forums,
Syswei, The Language used in my previous posting may seem strong at this point. Remember that I said that this change of hands will start with the launch of the new LS. It's apparent that you have never worked with German Engineers vs Japanese. The differences in philosophy are tremendous. If you don't think that the Japanese have learned about performance and will implement what they've learned over the next decade, then you're in for a big surprise. My friend, I have worked in several highly technological industries in the Silicon Valley. I have worked with both German engineers as well as Japanese. The commitment of both are admirable. But when it comes to building quality the Japanese Philosophy is far superior. People have stated that the Japanese do not innovate. This too has been a great misconception. I don't want to get into a back and forth war of words with you, because it would be a waist of both of our time. My advise to you and anyone that doubts what I've stated in my previous posting, is to sit back relax and watch what takes place over the next decade. You along with them, will be shocked. If you think that there will be anything to stop this, good luck in finding it. You may not be aware of it, but there is such a thing called a 100 year plan in Japan. What Lexus is about to initiate will be part of their plan in the automotive industry. Just like they learned and eventually dominated in the electronics industry, the same will begin to happen in the automotive industry, over the next two decades. I want you to think about this and think about it hard. How did Lexus become the number one selling Name Plate in such a short period of time? Why is it that their engines are the marvel of the auto industry? How is it that they are more reliable than their German and American counterparts? It's not by mistake that this has happened and I invite you to sit back and watch what they do with performance over the next decade. You are going to be surprised as to what they have in store. Isn't is also amazing that they're currently testing a Lexus product that can reach speeds of about 200MPH in Germany? That's a coincidence, isn't it. No one expected it!!! So I say again, sit back relax and enjoy the changing of the guard, it's going to happen faster than everyone expects. MARK MY WORDS it's all part of the plan!!!
I'm actually on your "side", so to speak, and own two Lexi (and before that a Toyota) to prove it. I think the 2006 IS will give the 3 some serious competition in the performance arena, for instance. Though with the market share and mindshare that the 3 now enjoys, it will be quite a few years before the IS outsells the 3.
No problem, I agree with you on the general direction. Just a word of warning that, especially on some of the other boards, strong claims may draw strong reactions from certain germancarfans.
Strong words yes, but a lot of what you are saying is very possible. I said awhile back that Lexus would overtake one of the Germans (BMW or MB, Audi was beaten a long time ago) in image in the next few years. That's why I'm expecting a lot of surprises and surprise announcements on the LS front and with the new sportscar up to its 2007 worldwide debut. I think nearly every auto enthusiast I've read on these boards either underestimates or fails to understand the financial power and clout that Toyota has amassed in the last decade. Minting $12-15bln a year in profit, low debt, high cash hoard, not having to prop up or integrate acquired companies, and growing rapidly but at their measured pace are power chips that are unmatchable by anyone in the industry. Heck, you are reading about how they almost want to help GM anf Ford gain some share back in the US because they fear a backlash due to their dominance. But on the lux end, as well as planning a major Global and Euro assault of boith Toyota and Lexus it's a different story. Their will be no such generosity. There are three things that stand in there way, two are directly in their control, one is partially within their control:
1. They trail in performance car. This is completely within their control and a big assault in already underway. This will be easy
2. Supercars & high end sport - They have none as yet but they are now in the planning stage. This is also under their control and they will have a great deal of patience here. I don't see them ever going to a Rolls level and you hardly need that. Maybach is already failing and this is hardly a growth or profitable business. But $125-$150K cars are on on their way and they will deliver more at a much lower price and will be hard to resist. Quality is always impossible to resist.This will not be easy but it won't be anywhere as difficult as some want to believe.
3. Status and perception - Partially under their control with marketing and the increasingly growing stature of Lexus. Europe will resist bigtime until they build the factories in Europe and then Europeans will rush to buy the cars. I'd expect some major marketing programs linking stature and quality in the future when the global intro date approaches. The most difficult task to achieve (outside of the US, they are already very far along here) but their competitors will have a hard time fighting this off. It'll be like arm wrestling a guy who has 25-50% more body weight and power than you have.
Stopping the Japanese is like winning a game against a power pitcher with great control. You had to do it early. Lexus cleared the early innings a long time ago. Infiniti nearly failed but found a great relief pitcher in a European. How ironic that one is.
Gaining market share is a funny thing in this class, as the LS has always played in the E-Class swimming pool, but with S-Class luxury.
Expect Lexus to jump into the $65k+ class, and I expect the Hybrid GT/600h to float around 100K.
The new look R&T and C&D are floating is a combination last-gen 740 and 1st-gen LS.
I don't know who has seen the rear-end, but I have said it before, and will say it again. The 5-series is the best-looking car in the mid-size lux class. Not in love with the angular, stark interior, or the overcompensating nannies messin' with a ride that wasn't broke. But I hope the 5-series style does make it's way East, Far East! I wanted the GS to look like the current 5. The new GS has grown on me too.
I expect a 460, a 5liter, and a 600h, gaining 12-15k per iteration, catching 100-110k at the max. A 460 will max at $80k.
As far as "gaining share", Lexus will still sell 30-35k LS, even with a significant price increase. And the "hippy" new S-Class is trying to give Lexus help they really don't need. Success is a given for this car.
Rea strong words.... Phew !!!! Be careful around here, as syswei cautioned. The Germancarfans are gonna pounce sooner or later, and its gonna become a free-for-all.... I won't waste too much time arguing with them tho' cos much of what you say sounds scarily true.....
I think that the German makers have made a lot of mistakes lately (still love those SL65AMGS, but what can I do?) and I'm completely sure that Lexus will be able to outsell them in Europe someday. People will say that the only reason that Lexus is the #1 selling luxury car marque in the US is because of their SUVs. And I say, "so?" This might be a bad thing if none of the Germans made SUVs, but they all do. And obviously, there's something that people like more about the Lexus.
I personally think that the 5-series looks better than the STS, M35/45, and S-Type but not as good lookin as the GS or A6.
"I don't see them ever going to a Rolls level and you hardly need that"
They can't. The weird thing about Rolls and Bentley is that even if they didn't revise their cars for ten years and other superlux makers came out, they'd still sell. You know why? They're named Rolls-Royce and Bentley. They are burned into the public's mind as unattainable and therefore, worthy of lust. Maybach? What's a Maybach? Unless you were around in the 1920's, it doesn't mean much. It takes heritage to build a car company like that..... and even Toyota can't buy that
I agree, the S-Class looks weird. Not as blatently ugly as the 7-Series, but not a good lookin car at all.
a bit off topic...I read that in the month of June when GM started its "employee discount for everyone" campaign, fully 69% of units sold were SUVs/pickups.
I'd hope you would add more to the debate on what you think about the posts from jblak wrt Lexus v MB/BMW/Audi.... Do you see much truth in it, or is it all about Kool-Aid-drinking Camp Lexus
He makes some interesting points. I wish he would elaborate with less hyperbole. I think it is very possible the Japanese will rule the auto industry. You can’t help but notice their recovery from the ashes of WWII and the position Toyota has put itself in. Right now I am interested in what they can do with the IS since that’s the next batter up at the plate. They blew it the first time around and the new GS is whiffing so they’re not doing what everyone says they will do with performance. You guys are getting a little intoxicated on the notion of superior Lexus performance and they have showed very little so far in this regard. Prowess with manufacturing and production? No argument here, they’ve proven themselves. Performance is a different ballgame. However he doesn’t understand this gives himself away right here
“Are there any Benz or BMW takers out there? If so, you're as foolish as the rest of the German Car Idiot's out there.”
OK, let's ignore for the moment the hyperboles (you called it) in jblak's posts.
The new GS did not miss really. Rather, I'd say that it is a scheduling *problem* at Lexus to blame for the new GS. The engines designed for the new GS are the 3.5L and 4.6L, and the hybrid powerplant 450H. Unfortunately, neither of these engines were ready at launch. The 450H arrives next spring, and the 350 and 460-badged GS in the spring of 2007, or earlier (note that Japan gets the GS350 this Fall at launch). The LS is being cast, once again, as the de facto leader of the pack for the new-look Lexus, and all are being arranged (or re-arranged if you so wish) to afford the biggest bang for the next LS. The IS would do well, but it is by no means the key car for Lexus; its the LS that really starts things off, and then you start seeing the whole bunch arriving in quick succession:
GS350/460 LS600H IS500 LS GT etc...
circa 2007 when Lexus starts its ball rolling. The GS/IS are floor moppers for the next LS....
we aren't really talking about the GS. Most of the auto mags have said that it was a good attempt. Besides (and I've said this about a jillion times) would anyone in their right mind actually expect Lexus to want to make a sport sedan of 5-Series caliber??!?
And they did screw up a bit, but people are still buying the GS, apparently.
Which old engine? I ask because the 3.0L V6 in the GS300 is totally new for 2006 and the 4.3L V8 only came out for the 2001 model year. That is hardly *very old*.
OAC - right on the money with that. Everything in the Lexus line-up will follow the LS. It's the key car and it's perfectly timed with the global intro for obvious reasons. Besides, how can anyone say the GS is a miss. They sold another 3300+ in June and are averaging well over the projected benchmark just like they did with the LS in 2001. Stopped at my Lexus dealer the other day for my 20K service (I am really up to 24K miles on my LS) and they continue to have every GS sold before they are in the door. It's why you can't get a deal around here at all.
Interesting discussion guys. Lets try and refrain from calling german car fans "fools" ok? It just doesnt help the cause at all. There are people that buy BMW or Mercedes just for the badge (usually 325is, C230s and 525is), and while I dont necessarily agree with it, its their decision to make. Then there are the serious enthusiasts with AMG and Motorsport cars. While Japan should start trying to compete in this catergory soon (with Lexus leading and Infiniti following) they currently have nothing. Even when they do start offering super powered cars to compete, they wont have the years and years of tuning experience that AMG, Motorsport, and Quattro Gmbh have. It will take awhile.
The GS ultimately is what it is. Its definitely a Lexus through and through. However, there's just a little too much old GS and not enough IS300 in it. I like the GS300, but I dont like the GS430. The VDIM system needs an off switch, and Lexus needs to fix the pointless electronic active steering and brakes before I could consider it. A GS350 AWD, unfortunately for Acura, will make life for the RL that much harder. The GS is good, but this round definitely goes to Infiniti.
I dont think Infiniti can beat the '07 LS though. They've been trying for 15 years, and they've failed for all 15. Infiniti can sell a more expensive car than Acura, but there's no way they can make an $80K car and expect anyone to actually buy one (ask VW how well their experiment went). I know I certainly wouldnt want to be the guy in charge of the '07 Q. Is it wierd that there is currently zero real info about the car?
well actaully it is pretty old engine....in 2001 they just made a slight improvment to the 4.0L engine they have been using for over 11 years. So the 2006 GS430 is basically using a 15 or 16 year old engine
Many here believe the Germans will have roll over for the Lexus steamroll. Here's a list of why that's not so easy.
1. The Germans did better in the latest JP Power, perhaps getting their quality problems under control. 2. Is it so easy for Lexus to produce performance car as you guys think? It will be Toyota's initial effort against the like of Ferrari and Porsche. I predict Toy will find success in this segment as elusive as in F1. And remember they reportedly spend more money than anyone else in F1, and that doesn't guarantee success. 3. Nissan GTR probably will have more success than LF-A, partly because it's the latest in Japan's most legendary line. LF-A has no heritage. 4. Lexus will not find success in other countries as easily as US. Take Britain, it's been there for years, and yet its sales are a fraction of Audi and BMW. It will be even rougher in the continent. 5. Case in point: the Aussie car magazine Wheels has this startling statistic. The current LS had some initial success but sales took a nose dive to 187 in entire 2004. Don't trust me, look it up in latest Wheels! 6. Wheels reviews new GS and has this pungent remark: 'Does Lexus want drivers, or does it just want people who want peace and quiet?' If you read British car mags, that's pretty much their unanimous opinion. So for the formula for US success might not translate very well in the rest of the world. BTW, if you read between the lines, that's also the opinion of many American publications. 7. The challenger to Ferrari and Porsche better want drivers.
"The GS ultimately is what it is. Its definitely a Lexus through and through. However, there's just a little too much old GS and not enough IS300 in it. I like the GS300, but I dont like the GS430. The VDIM system needs an off switch, and Lexus needs to fix the pointless electronic active steering and brakes before I could consider it.
Thanks for sparing me the effort. Couldn't have said it better myself... a Lexus through and through... exactly what a performance buyer doesn't want. You can't go halfway with performance, guys. Lexus has BMW in their sights? They won't get many BMW buyers that way. The BMW boys are hovering around the IS thread, can't wait to drive it. If it's a halfway car, they'll head for the hills.
BTW it seems the new M came out of the gate pretty good and it still hasn't hit home. So, not only will you need performance, you'll need marketing and time. You don't just say... we have money and we'll do performance. Reminds me of the rich kid who shows up to the stickball game with a ton of cool equiment but can't hit a lick.
Ljflx... yes, if you can forget SUVs for a minute (but not longer than that) the LS is Lexus, the halo car, the success story. Take note, it's a luxury car and many of you guys are on record as luxury lovers, not performance lovers.
Mariner7... good post!
PS - Sports cars are my favorite segment so as far as I'm concerned you can't have enough of them. If I am wrong you can come back here, quote me and rub it in my face... the LF-A is going to fail bigtime. Talk about having to prove yourself. Classic example of the rich kid I mentioned above. Do you guys realize how much iron and heritage this thing is going up against? Keep an eye on the IS, that could be the newest torchbearer until the next LS gets here. I said COULD BE!
-I agree with you to some extent, Lexus engineers aren't magicians and money isn't everything. The first IS fell short of the mark. The next one imho should be better, and I hope some will view it as competitive with the 3, but we'll just have to wait and see. I do think that Lexus is capable of improving things, and that there isn't some sort of Japanese genetic deficiency that prevents their engineers from producing performance cars if that is what they want to target. As designman pointed out and even merc1 would agree, Infiniti did a good job with the M.
-With the LS we also need to consider what they are shooting for. With at least the LS460 and LS600h it appears to me that luxury will still be emphasized. Here is what Kevin said in post 317:
Many of you in this forum seem to be confused as to whether or not the LS600h sedan would produce either 460 horsepower as CarMode magazine stated or 500 horsepower as some other magazine claimed. What I can tell you that CarMode’s predictions are very close to the engine ratings that Nobutaka and his engineers have being reported in our engine test lab. Although this might disappoint many of you whom want the LS600h in achieving 500 horsepower because the technology that is currently available to us can easily tune this engine to achieve 500 horsepower. However please remember by doing so, it would sacrifice a lot of it’s stability and smoothness of the engine itself and this would prevent a lot of buyers to purchase the LS sedan if they find out their sedan are not as smooth and stable as the original Celsoir processes. Furthermore you must also remember a sedan with 460 or 470 horsepower was not a slow sedan either and with the engine’s powerful torque curve plus a new 7-speed transmission, I don’t see there’s a reason why this sedan would not outrun the Mercedes S 600 or BMW 760 LI on the road.
If they produce an LS GT, which at this point is still speculation, then we'll have to see what that is like when it appears.
The Japanese are very good at making performance cars. Just ask the Subaru and Mitsubishi WRC cars, the GT-R, or the NSX. What Japan is not so good at is luxury performance cars, in the traditional European sense. Considering the age difference between Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus vs. Audi, BMW, and Mercedes, I think the Japan trio are doing very well.
LG: Luxury performance as defined by Germany, right ? Yes, the Germans have an edge and continue to, but the gap is narrowing.... By 2007, the GT-R will be here, maybe the LF-A (Lexus GT), then we'll see whether the gap is fully closed or remains wide. One thing is for sure, Lexus wants to go global, and going global means doing things in not so traditional ways.... If Lexus wants to succeed in Europe, it won't just be bcos they can make luxury performance sedans, it will be bcos they can produce these cars locally, and can work within the governmental controls and biases created in Europe that gives undue advantage to the Euro car companies. Such biases are far less in the NA market, hence Lexus quick ascension to the luxury ladder crown.
I'm new to this forum. When is it believed that the Lexus 460 would be available for actual purchase? My Infiniti Q45 is ten years old but still super. I want the new toys and larger trunk on a Lexus. Maybe I should wait for the 2007, but how long is that? I usually keep cars a long time. Maybe I should do a lease of the 430, and then go long term on the 460 after three years if I am happy with Lexus.
I think Lexus missed a bit on the GS 430, the engine is basically the same performance as the original GS 400 that was introduced several years ago. Sure it's a nice ride, but the BMW 540 and the Infiniti M45 have MUCH more HP, 0-60, etc....Also, the GS 430 is not flying off the lot, only selling 600 cars a month. Don't get me wrong, still a nice car, but they could have and should have done better. The GS 300 should have come with the V6 in the Toyota Avalon, 280 HP and the 430 should have come out as the 460....oh well, I suppose they will get there at some point....
Expect to see the LS460 maybe in September of 2006. The current LS is great (its always been a great car, I've had one since 1996) but the the 2001 LS430 was a somewhat evolutionary step over the last LS400 design. I think the next LS will be a pretty radical step forward, one that will be worth waiting another year for.
"I think it is very possible the Japanese will rule the auto industry."
There's a startling article on the future of the auto industry in current Automobile. In 2000, the 3 biggest markets are US/Japan/Germany. In 2030, the 3 biggest will be China/India/US, in that order. Something tells me Chinese and Indian consumers will prefer their home teams and not let the foreigners rule over them. It's consumers in China and India who will determine losers and winners among today's auto companies really!
Regarding LF-A. Porsche and Ferrari ruled the auto sports world 30 years ago, and that duopoly will be there 30 years from now. Despite the best efforts of Audi (R9, Lambo), MB (SLR), Toyota (LF-A), Nissan (GTR). Audi's effort is pretty credible though, it dominated Le Mans for quite a while. If there's a third member to the governing elite, it's BMW. Sports cars require heritage, so no Chinese or Indian here. But don't be surprised if Porsche or Ferrari falls into their hands!
Let's not get distracted - this discussion is for the Lexus LS only. If you want to discuss Lexus' successes or failures, please do so on the News & Views board. This topic is specifically not about the GS. Further off-topic posts will be deleted without notice.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I overlooked the fact that it said the LS460 would come to market next spring. If they are right then the next LS and the next S hit the US market at at the same time. My dealer had said the car could be a spring 06 debut as an 07 car but I had started to feel that it would be a traditional September start date. Then the 600H comes in late 2007per the C&D blip. But that 18 month time horizon seems far too long a wait. I think the LS460 is pegged too early or the 600H is pegged too late by C&D.
Actually no, it's not a pretty old engine. The engine was heavily reworked for the 1998 model year when they added VVTi to the engine to begin with. Except for the engine block, basically everything was redesigned on the engine. You are correct, the engine dates back to 1990, but it has changed significantly in the time since.
"In 2030, the 3 biggest will be China/India/US, in that order. Something tells me Chinese and Indian consumers will prefer their home teams and not let the foreigners rule over them. It's consumers in China and India who will determine losers and winners among today's auto companies really!"
I doubt Indian consumer's will prefer their home team car makers over the foreign makes if their cars are inferior. Already the biggest carmaker in India is a joint venture between Suzuki and a Indian company. The suzuki cars capture close to 50% of the consumer market. General Motors and Ford are also big sellers. GM sells many Isuzu designed vehicles as Chevy models over there. As well as Opel's are sold there. And recently, Honda and Toyota are making big inroads. The only strong homegrown Indian Automaker is Tata, which is doing quite well and even imports cars to parts of Europe these days. From experience though, Indian culture loves American stuff. They devour our music, movies, clothing brands, etc. I think if anything, GM, Toyota, Ford & Tata will end up being the top 4 brands. China on the otherhand, is alot more protectionist, and they will probably over the long term prefer their homegrown brands, but so far foreign carmakers like GM, Toyota, VW, & BMW are doing quite well.
"Maybe you know much more about this subject than I do - but Ford is working with the toroidal CVT according to an engineer friend - and if they can afford it, Toyota can surely afford it, and the LS would be the place to deploy it. "
Sorry, slow to get back as I had not heard of Ford and a Toroidal CVT trany. I cannot find any mention of it for production though - so maybe your engineering friend knows more than I do on that score. A web search seems to show them working on a full-toroidal IVT with a company called Torotrak - smaller, very fuel efficient and with geared neutral (neat). But the question still remains, has the LS got an expensive toroidal CVT or an 8-speed cog automatic trany?
I still have my doubts about the CVT/IVT possibility, but I also think a normal 8-speed might be a busy shifter - which are you hoping for?
I also have my doubts on the CVT on the 460 and the GT versions. However it is very much possible that the 600h will have a CVT, considering that 400h has a CVT. And because that will probably reduce the quality of the ride, the 8-speed tranny, that would be a very busy shifter. I am thinking either a revised version of the 6-speed the LS has now, or a new 7-speed.
Comments
S350 => LS460 SWB/LWB (4.6L 350HP) *seemed wrong to compare a V6 MB to V8 from Lexus, but they should be priced about same*
S500/750i/750iL =>LS500 (4L 400HP)
S600/760iL => LS600H LWB (V8+Battery, 500HP)
SL55/SL65 => LSXXX GT (V10+Battery = 600+HP)
Does the above make sense ? I am just wondering about the Lexus strategy here viz MB and BMW. They have to compete against these giants, and yet re-define a global image and brand for the next LS models.
I have read through many of the messages posted and I only have on thing to say. The New LS and its many configurations will simply blow away the S-class and the BMW 7 Series. These two pieces of over priced German scrap metal will become obsolete once Lexus unleashes the new LS for the year 2007. Both of these makes have gotten away with over charging the public for their imperfected experiments for far to long. The Japanese by far are superior builders when it comes to quality and that is the bottom line. The Germans may have had a jump when it comes to performance, but that will all end over the next decade. The Japanese have been very patient for many years focusing on building a name brand that is superior in quality to its competitors. That was Phase One - Lexus. Now they will launch Phase Two - which not only incorporates Superior Quality, but Superior Performance. With the launch of the new LS, Lexus will engage the Germans in a head to head battle for Superiority in Quality and performance. The German car builders have focused primarily on performance and have sacrificed a great deal in the area of Quality. Quality is much tougher to achieve than performance and takes a great deal more engineering expertise that the Germans do not posses (Reproducablity). The Japanese have studied and worked tirelessly over the past several decades not only producing the worlds best quality products, but engineering the worlds best products in their design phase. Now that they have accomplished the quality phase, Lexus will launch an attack one the Germans that will be relentless over the next two decades. They will not only produce Cars and SUV's that will out perform their German Competitors, they will also up the anttie in quality, electronic's and systems integration and will become a leader in the area of safety. With the introduction of their New High Performance HyBrid Engines, they will completely obsolete whatever comes out of Germany. Our good friends at M-Benz and BMW have been on the run for several years. It has caused them to produce Inferior Quality High Performance cars that are based on looks rather than sound principles, that will maintain customer loyalty and higher resale values. Lexus is cash rich and will spare no expense in Phase Two - two build high quality, high performance, cutting edge styling cars in the future. The German car makers have gotten away with producing inferior quality cars for far too long and now they will have to pay for their lack of attention in this area. The new LS will send a strong statement to all of its German and American competitors alike. They know now and always have, that Lexus is the most superior automobile that has ever been built. They have criticized their styling and lack of performance, but now they will see what Lexus has instore for them now. The new LS along with many of the new designs to come, will put the rest of the world on notice that their is a New Master of Performance in town and they're here to stay. If the Benz and BMW fans don't belive it, tell them to wait and see, because the best is yet to be. The German and American car makers are shaking in their boots right now in anticipation of the introduction of the new LS. They know now just as they did when Lexus first introduced the LS over a decade ago, that this will be a superior product for them to dismantle, learn from and try to replicate. People talk about how LEXUS borrows styling tips from their competitors and incorporates them into their designs, but how many of their competitors are borrowing and trying to replicate the superior engineering that Lexus has designed into their engines and electronic systems? How many of them have even come close to the superior quality and systems contained in the LS and been able to reproduce them for the same price? The Answer is NONE!!! They can not and will not match what Lexus is about to do to them. They Do not have the money, expertise or drive that Lexus has and will demonstrate over the next two decades. The Super Sedan War is on and I'm betting all of my eggs on Lexus. Are there any Benz or BMW takers out there? If so, you're as foolish as the rest of the German Car Idiot's out there. Continue to purchase substandard cars that are over priced, with poor quality, and don't maintain their value as well as Lexus. I guarantee you'll be left in the dust literally as the new Lexus products zip by you on the highway leaving you in their dusty wake as they move on to their next destination. All I have to say to the Benz & BMW crowd is, Bye!!! When you see and experience the new LS, you'll be experiencing the death of the German Auto Makers and their over priced JUNK!!! For all of you LOYAL LEXUS FANS, get ready for the changing of the guard, it will be sweet watching Lexus finally shutting the mouths of the German car fools. We welcome any challenges that they pose and will gladly accept their futile attempts to compete with the New Performance Master, LEXUS. That's all I have to say!!!
You might be interested in another couple of forums,
lexusguy, "High End Luxury Marques" #9809, 11 Jul 2005 7:03 am
and
lexusguy, "Luxury Performance Sedans" #2986, 11 Jul 2005 5:29 am
1. They trail in performance car. This is completely within their control and a big assault in already underway. This will be easy
2. Supercars & high end sport - They have none as yet but they are now in the planning stage. This is also under their control and they will have a great deal of patience here. I don't see them ever going to a Rolls level and you hardly need that. Maybach is already failing and this is hardly a growth or profitable business. But $125-$150K cars are on on their way and they will deliver more at a much lower price and will be hard to resist. Quality is always impossible to resist.This will not be easy but it won't be anywhere as difficult as some want to believe.
3. Status and perception - Partially under their control with marketing and the increasingly growing stature of Lexus. Europe will resist bigtime until they build the factories in Europe and then Europeans will rush to buy the cars. I'd expect some major marketing programs linking stature and quality in the future when the global intro date approaches. The most difficult task to achieve (outside of the US, they are already very far along here) but their competitors will have a hard time fighting this off. It'll be like arm wrestling a guy who has 25-50% more body weight and power than you have.
Stopping the Japanese is like winning a game against a power pitcher with great control. You had to do it early. Lexus cleared the early innings a long time ago. Infiniti nearly failed but found a great relief pitcher in a European. How ironic that one is.
Expect Lexus to jump into the $65k+ class, and I expect the Hybrid GT/600h to float around 100K.
The new look R&T and C&D are floating is a combination last-gen 740 and 1st-gen LS.
I don't know who has seen the rear-end, but I have said it before, and will say it again. The 5-series is the best-looking car in the mid-size lux class. Not in love with the angular, stark interior, or the overcompensating nannies messin' with a ride that wasn't broke. But I hope the 5-series style does make it's way East, Far East! I wanted the GS to look like the current 5. The new GS has grown on me too.
I expect a 460, a 5liter, and a 600h, gaining 12-15k per iteration, catching 100-110k at the max. A 460 will max at $80k.
As far as "gaining share", Lexus will still sell 30-35k LS, even with a significant price increase. And the "hippy" new S-Class is trying to give Lexus help they really don't need. Success is a given for this car.
DrFill
Don't expect many to agree with you here. The 5-series is a disjointed eyesore to me.
I personally think that the 5-series looks better than the STS, M35/45, and S-Type but not as good lookin as the GS or A6.
"I don't see them ever going to a Rolls level and you hardly need that"
They can't. The weird thing about Rolls and Bentley is that even if they didn't revise their cars for ten years and other superlux makers came out, they'd still sell. You know why? They're named Rolls-Royce and Bentley. They are burned into the public's mind as unattainable and therefore, worthy of lust. Maybach? What's a Maybach? Unless you were around in the 1920's, it doesn't mean much. It takes heritage to build a car company like that..... and even Toyota can't buy that
I agree, the S-Class looks weird. Not as blatently ugly as the 7-Series, but not a good lookin car at all.
Heh, heh I see you have a new bright-eyed, bushy-tailed recruit selling Kool-Aid.
You guys are funny!
;-)
I'd hope you would add more to the debate on what you think about the posts from jblak wrt Lexus v MB/BMW/Audi.... Do you see much truth in it, or is it all about Kool-Aid-drinking Camp Lexus
“Are there any Benz or BMW takers out there? If so, you're as foolish as the rest of the German Car Idiot's out there.”
The new GS did not miss really. Rather, I'd say that it is a scheduling *problem* at Lexus to blame for the new GS. The engines designed for the new GS are the 3.5L and 4.6L, and the hybrid powerplant 450H. Unfortunately, neither of these engines were ready at launch. The 450H arrives next spring, and the 350 and 460-badged GS in the spring of 2007, or earlier (note that Japan gets the GS350 this Fall at launch). The LS is being cast, once again, as the de facto leader of the pack for the new-look Lexus, and all are being arranged (or re-arranged if you so wish) to afford the biggest bang for the next LS. The IS would do well, but it is by no means the key car for Lexus; its the LS that really starts things off, and then you start seeing the whole bunch arriving in quick succession:
GS350/460
LS600H
IS500
LS GT
etc...
circa 2007 when Lexus starts its ball rolling. The GS/IS are floor moppers for the next LS....
And they did screw up a bit, but people are still buying the GS, apparently.
The GS ultimately is what it is. Its definitely a Lexus through and through. However, there's just a little too much old GS and not enough IS300 in it. I like the GS300, but I dont like the GS430. The VDIM system needs an off switch, and Lexus needs to fix the pointless electronic active steering and brakes before I could consider it. A GS350 AWD, unfortunately for Acura, will make life for the RL that much harder. The GS is good, but this round definitely goes to Infiniti.
I dont think Infiniti can beat the '07 LS though. They've been trying for 15 years, and they've failed for all 15. Infiniti can sell a more expensive car than Acura, but there's no way they can make an $80K car and expect anyone to actually buy one (ask VW how well their experiment went). I know I certainly wouldnt want to be the guy in charge of the '07 Q. Is it wierd that there is currently zero real info about the car?
Not so, Vvti was added much more recently than 15 years ago.
1. The Germans did better in the latest JP Power, perhaps getting their quality problems under control.
2. Is it so easy for Lexus to produce performance car as you guys think? It will be Toyota's initial effort against the like of Ferrari and Porsche. I predict Toy will find success in this segment as elusive as in F1. And remember they reportedly spend more money than anyone else in F1, and that doesn't guarantee success.
3. Nissan GTR probably will have more success than LF-A, partly because it's the latest in Japan's most legendary line. LF-A has no heritage.
4. Lexus will not find success in other countries as easily as US. Take Britain, it's been there for years, and yet its sales are a fraction of Audi and BMW. It will be even rougher in the continent.
5. Case in point: the Aussie car magazine Wheels has this startling statistic. The current LS had some initial success but sales took a nose dive to 187 in entire 2004. Don't trust me, look it up in latest Wheels!
6. Wheels reviews new GS and has this pungent remark: 'Does Lexus want drivers, or does it just want people who want peace and quiet?' If you read British car mags, that's pretty much their unanimous opinion. So for the formula for US success might not translate very well in the rest of the world. BTW, if you read between the lines, that's also the opinion of many American publications.
7. The challenger to Ferrari and Porsche better want drivers.
Thanks for sparing me the effort. Couldn't have said it better myself... a Lexus through and through... exactly what a performance buyer doesn't want. You can't go halfway with performance, guys. Lexus has BMW in their sights? They won't get many BMW buyers that way. The BMW boys are hovering around the IS thread, can't wait to drive it. If it's a halfway car, they'll head for the hills.
BTW it seems the new M came out of the gate pretty good and it still hasn't hit home. So, not only will you need performance, you'll need marketing and time. You don't just say... we have money and we'll do performance. Reminds me of the rich kid who shows up to the stickball game with a ton of cool equiment but can't hit a lick.
Ljflx... yes, if you can forget SUVs for a minute (but not longer than that) the LS is Lexus, the halo car, the success story. Take note, it's a luxury car and many of you guys are on record as luxury lovers, not performance lovers.
Mariner7... good post!
PS - Sports cars are my favorite segment so as far as I'm concerned you can't have enough of them. If I am wrong you can come back here, quote me and rub it in my face... the LF-A is going to fail bigtime. Talk about having to prove yourself. Classic example of the rich kid I mentioned above. Do you guys realize how much iron and heritage this thing is going up against? Keep an eye on the IS, that could be the newest torchbearer until the next LS gets here. I said COULD BE!
;-)
-With the LS we also need to consider what they are shooting for. With at least the LS460 and LS600h it appears to me that luxury will still be emphasized. Here is what Kevin said in post 317:
Many of you in this forum seem to be confused as to whether or not the LS600h sedan would produce either 460 horsepower as CarMode magazine stated or 500 horsepower as some other magazine claimed. What I can tell you that CarMode’s predictions are very close to the engine ratings that Nobutaka and his engineers have being reported in our engine test lab. Although this might disappoint many of you whom want the LS600h in achieving 500 horsepower because the technology that is currently available to us can easily tune this engine to achieve 500 horsepower. However please remember by doing so, it would sacrifice a lot of it’s stability and smoothness of the engine itself and this would prevent a lot of buyers to purchase the LS sedan if they find out their sedan are not as smooth and stable as the original Celsoir processes. Furthermore you must also remember a sedan with 460 or 470 horsepower was not a slow sedan either and with the engine’s powerful torque curve plus a new 7-speed transmission, I don’t see there’s a reason why this sedan would not outrun the Mercedes S 600 or BMW 760 LI on the road.
If they produce an LS GT, which at this point is still speculation, then we'll have to see what that is like when it appears.
There's a startling article on the future of the auto industry in current Automobile. In 2000, the 3 biggest markets are US/Japan/Germany. In 2030, the 3 biggest will be China/India/US, in that order. Something tells me Chinese and Indian consumers will prefer their home teams and not let the foreigners rule over them. It's consumers in China and India who will determine losers and winners among today's auto companies really!
Regarding LF-A. Porsche and Ferrari ruled the auto sports world 30 years ago, and that duopoly will be there 30 years from now. Despite the best efforts of Audi (R9, Lambo), MB (SLR), Toyota (LF-A), Nissan (GTR). Audi's effort is pretty credible though, it dominated Le Mans for quite a while. If there's a third member to the governing elite, it's BMW. Sports cars require heritage, so no Chinese or Indian here. But don't be surprised if Porsche or Ferrari falls into their hands!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I doubt Indian consumer's will prefer their home team car makers over the foreign makes if their cars are inferior. Already the biggest carmaker in India is a joint venture between Suzuki and a Indian company. The suzuki cars capture close to 50% of the consumer market. General Motors and Ford are also big sellers. GM sells many Isuzu designed vehicles as Chevy models over there. As well as Opel's are sold there. And recently, Honda and Toyota are making big inroads. The only strong homegrown Indian Automaker is Tata, which is doing quite well and even imports cars to parts of Europe these days. From experience though, Indian culture loves American stuff. They devour our music, movies, clothing brands, etc. I think if anything, GM, Toyota, Ford & Tata will end up being the top 4 brands. China on the otherhand, is alot more protectionist, and they will probably over the long term prefer their homegrown brands, but so far foreign carmakers like GM, Toyota, VW, & BMW are doing quite well.
Sorry, slow to get back as I had not heard of Ford and a Toroidal CVT trany. I cannot find any mention of it for production though - so maybe your engineering friend knows more than I do on that score. A web search seems to show them working on a full-toroidal IVT with a company called Torotrak - smaller, very fuel efficient and with geared neutral (neat). But the question still remains, has the LS got an expensive toroidal CVT or an 8-speed cog automatic trany?
I still have my doubts about the CVT/IVT possibility, but I also think a normal 8-speed might be a busy shifter - which are you hoping for?