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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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As for me, I keep reading these forums for the same reason I can't put down a good book. Being an engineer, I'm also curious as to how this will all get resolved - for the existing vehicles, and on future ones. So I've subscribed to a few forums here, and check back every now and again. See you around. And do tell us what you end up driving next.
Scoti1 --
Don't know about your State but in CA, the lemon law usage deduction uses the mileage at your first dealer visit for the issue. In CA, if you first took the car in for repair at 1,000 miles and when you finally settle the case you have 20,000 miles, your usage deduction formula will be Purchase Price x 1,000/120,000 (average usage life of cars).
Thanks for replying back. I don't think you're mean. I wanted a reply. Excellent! I am also in CA - Los Angeles in this case. I will do the lemon law research. The only thing, all of my paperwork states the problems, and says vehicle operating as designed.
I'm still not completely clear on your specific problem you used to get the buyback. But it seems like it was the tranny. If there was more to it, please tell so I am not spinning my wheels.
But I really appreciate your reply.
Thanks. The more thorough/information the better.
I have an '05 Highlander, V6 4WD with about 2K miles on it. I figured I'd post what I observed.
I was traveling in the right-hand lane of a highway doing approx 35mph (give or take; I wasn't looking at the speedometer, so I really don't know). Another car to my right was on the on-ramp and was doing the same speed as me (i.e., wasn't slowing down to let me pass, and wasn't speeding up to overtake me). Rather than risk a collision, I decided to speed up to force him to enter the highway behind me. I floored the accelerator, and it took a couple of seconds before the car responded. It did respond in time; I never came close to an accident, but I certainly did notice the hesitation. (I had been on the lookout for it, due to the comments in this forum).
My wife and I really like the car; we don't want to return it. However, if there is a procedure to report this incident to the government, that I will do. Can anyone guide me to the appropriate place?
Thanks.
SDE
Post a complaint of the problem at www.nhtsa.gov and www.autosafety.org
Thanks very much. I did call the NHTSA and report the incident.
SDE
Shifty the Host
Shifty, your remarks resonated. I was reminded of what happened here a couple of years ago when a wannabe activist named "something or other Blake" began plastering tons of alarmist stuff about sludge all over Edmunds and everywhere else as well, in what was a thinly disguised campaign to get everyone's wind up.
Blake was relentless in constantly feeding the net an unending supply of what was no more than irrational rhetoric re the sludge issue.
That campaign was one of pure misinformation and baseless hype wrapped up in the same "come to my website where you can learn all about it" dogma.
It did result in a raging controversy for a few months but eventually ran out of steam.
I truly believe much of the sludge controversy at that time was largely a creation of that Blake person's fertile (but slightly twisted) imagination in keeping it in everyone's face.
While I'm not against any source of information about hesitation, for the good of everyone it should be one that people can trust.
I sincerely hope this new website Josh speaks to doesn't turn into another one of those self serving fiascos run by another goofball activist.
G'Day.
I thought I remembered getting a letter from Lexus telling me that the sludge issue was REAL and that my engine warranty was to be extended "for cause" if it sludged up during the warranty extension period.
Who is to say, or NOT, that the act of Toyota and Lexus 'fessing up was not a direct result of the "raging controversy" of "misinformation" and "baseless" hype?
I guess by Pilot's definition I'm just another one of those goofball activists.
"While I'm not against any source of information about hesitation, for the good of everyone it should be one that can be trusted."
So, pilot, how do YOU determine who can be trusted?
Who do you trust??
So, if the shoe fits.......!
However, I actually referred to someone named Blake (first name forgotten) who rode on the coattails of the sludge issue a couple of years ago.
A world class opportunist who broke every rule of integrity in the book, IMO, and who had nothing whatever to do with Toyota's SPA policy---a policy BTW which was unprecedented and which compensated many people who just ignored basic maintenance on their vehicles and got sludged!
Shifty, I totally agree. Edmunds is the best site on the web, idf for no other reason than it has rules.
others will realize this themselves but it's worth noting. there's nothing wrong in that here at edmunds, and surely your prime target has no motivation to bring down the house of Toyota and their engineering staff.
i take exception to the fact that at the same time you express your opinions, you are actively discounting the information presented by others where their information and experiences represent first-hand information, and yours (and mine i might add since i don't own the products in question) are not.
infact wwest has pointed out something rather factual, and your response was to marginalize him.
surely you would not do the same in an arbitration setting as a professional. you've claimed yourself to be unbiased, but i don't see it.
your consistent pattern is rather overt and undeserving, and while wwest needs no defense, i'm quite surprised Shifty isn't calling you on it, and i question your motivation.
how's the shoe fit bill?
Is that just one person's personal opinion or can you back up the statement with actual facts?
I have seem absolutely no public statement by Toyota or Lexus relating to poor routine maintenance being even remotely related to the engine sludge problem. But I have seen a statement from Toyota indicating that a design change was made in the casting of the V6 engine block to alleviate the sludging problem.
This particular goofball isn't especially happy that my transaxle fluid was burned and needed to be changed out at 38,000 miles and within a week changed again due to "contamination" and this time the pan removed so the "sludge" could be scrapped out.
Although the recommended factory maintenance procedure doesn't address transaxle fluid drain and flush at all Lexus sent me to the dealer to discover that they are now recommending fluid changes at each 15,000 mile interval.
Anyone seen any public announcements by Toyota or Lexus of the need for 2001 AWD RX300 transaxle fluid change out?
NO?
Then how about recommendations of scheduled inspections of fluid condition??
NO??
Makes me wander how many transaxles will fail prematurely with no one checking or recommending fluid condition or change-out.
Quote: " Some folks say there's a problem, and many others don't, because they don't have one.
In fact, the truth lies somewhere in between.
I submit to you that the issue is getting play here because that's the nature of the players here." Unquote.
See you next time. My tee off appointment is fast approaching.
Some people are having the engine hesitation problem. Some people are not.
If you can find the truth that lies "somewhere in between" then we will have a new numbering system
1: For those who think the hesitation isn't real, I have paperwork to back it up from the dealership, as I have stated in earlier posts on this site.
2: An independent mechanic has verified that Lexus is having serious problems with their software (as pertaining to drive by wire), and cannot fix them.
3: I have a phone meeting tomorrow, which constitutes the first steps in pursuit of the lemon law.
If a car has problems that can't be fixed, is it a lemon? We'll see and I'll keep this site informed of my progress, and details on how success, should it come, was achieved.
Lastly, to all those doubting there is hesitation in the RX 330, please do some empirical research and see for yourself. I have driven at least 3 other loaner RX 330s, and all have the hesitation problem and more.
"#2136 of 2554 Naysayers And Such (wwest) by pilot130 Dec 15, 2004 (1:25 pm)
Reply
...................There was a lot of politicized rhetoric about sludge being bantied about then, mostly by a small group of self styled advocates led by someone called Charlene Blake. ....."
FYI, today's Golf game was interrupted by a very scary looking snake on the 4th green!!!
Scoti1 you are indeed correct, thanks for the refresher as I could recall only the surname.
Scoti1's quote is correct: "There was a lot of politicized rhetoric about sludge being bantied about then, mostly by a small group of self styled advocates led by someone called Charlene Blake. ....."
BTW, It's a good thing Edmunds runs a tight ship, otherwise the same thing would likely occur here.
For User777.
I admit to being biased---biased in favor of the truth, period.
In Arbitration, three criteria are applied to evidence and testimony; Admissibility; Relevance; Weight.
With all due respect to anyone posting about their problems on the net,the first test,"Admissibility",(simply put,"truth"), would disallow most, if not all such posts right from the git go.
Unfortunately, anonymous and unverified comments in any context are heresay.
Such comments on the web don't qualify as admissable. They cannot be said to be truthful. (No offence intended)
Now, I'm not suggesting this board is anywhere near an Arbitration situation.
On the contrary, it's an open forum.
Posters can say anything they want, and undoubtedly most are here to get info, tell about problems, or whatever. Good for them, IMO.
It's just that I look at what's here in terms of what it might mean in Arbitration, and express myself accordingly. Surely there's no rule saying I cannot.
I have to say, in all honesty, most of what I see here wouldn't get to first base.
See you in the morning.
I find this statement offensive. On what basis are you stating that most posts of problems on the net are not the truth????? My opinion is the exact opposite of yours -- I have no reason to believe otherwise. You have an unusual paranoia, but I tend to believe that most people posting problems on the net about their cars are not out to tear down the mighty {insert auto manufacturer of your choice} empire, they are honestly trying to just discuss a problem they are experiencing and get some advice, or maybe share their solution to a particular problem.
Also anytime you are in doubt about the appropriateness of a post, please e-mail me for guidance under the rules of the Forums.
Last of all, try not to make your remarks "personal" in this forum. I think everyone has made their points and we don't need to keep beating the horse here.
thanks and remember, you are here to have fun and help each other!
Shifty the Host
John Q Public, the average automotive buyer, has no "credentials" so his or her statements are not credible, admissible.
And if you even get to a trial level the Judge will view things in the very same way. Always ask for a jury trial.
Email: toyotadesignflaws@adelphia.net
I did receive a letter about 3 or 4 years ago from Toyota regarding potential sludging of my 97 camry le 4 cyl that could be caused by failing to change engine oil for 10,000 mile intervals. Which would be very foreseeable in that context...
Didn't intend to by any means.
Shifty, allow me to put a little oil on the waters here.
First and foremost, to Wwest.
Please understand that it wasn't my intention to infer in any way you and that sludge advocate from years back have anything in common.
I was surprised when you implied you did, and thought at first you were just making light of it in your reaction to my post.
I made an effort to qualify my intent in response to your unexpected reaction, and it obviously fell short. Believe me, my remarks to you were intended as a light hearted comeback, nothing more.
Altho' I don't always agree with your theories, I regard your input about this hesitation issue as a cut well above the rest.
You have taken an open minded approach, you obviously do your homework in researching cause and effect scenarios, and above all, you seem genuinely interested in providing helpful information.
Your posts are intelligent and informative.
Unlike the sludge furore led by that "goofball advocate", you do not take advantage at every opportunity to blow smoke and propaganda at the issue.
You, above all here, are definitely not like that, and I hope you continue what you're doing, and in the way you do it.
Now, to address your concerns about "admissability" in Arbitration.
Please don't give up on Arbitration as a worthy exercise.
What I had attempted to say in my earlier analogy (and evidently fell short again!) was that if testimony in arbitration was presented anonymously and with no corroboration (similar to how it's presented here), that testimony wouldn't be admitted.
It's hearsay. Some people would use an alternate term--anecdotal.
However, if someone seeking redress in Arbitration comes forward with solid, logical, fully supported evidence, ie, documentation, expert witness, all ducks in a row, etc, that's a completely different story.
In cases like that, the playing field is truly level, and the plaintiff has an excellent chance of getting satisfaction.
I wasn't trying to categorize posted complaints here as inadmissible/untruthful, and I thought I qualified this when I stated in my subsequent post(paraphrasing): "most people come here to discuss problems, seek information......Good for them."
Last, and I know it's way off topic, the sludge issue was never acknowledged by Toyota as anything more that an owner maintenance problem, even tho' they did do their SPA.
Hope this sets the record straight for you Wwest.
Regardless, keep up the good work.
Enough for now. Cheers from down under.
Last night I sold my Camry back to the dealership. Yes I took a hit but I feel a lot better now that this is over with. My dealership was willing to work with me to the bitter end knowing I may never be a Toyota owner again. I told the regional Toyota rep that Toyota does not deserve a dealership this good that is willing to pick up the slack for a problem that clearly should be the manufacturer’s responsibility. I thought about moving up to an Avalon but finally decided to take my time and do some research before my next automotive purchase. The weather is nice in the Midwest so I will be driving my 65 olds cutlass convertible for a while until I find something. I’m just glad to be done with it. Thanks for all the good info and good luck to all.
:<)
Bikegal gave us a link earlier with the following quote from USA Today regarding the 2005 Avalon:
"A sometimes-indecisive transmission is the one mechanical hiccup noticed during the test drives. In stop-and-go traffic or cruising at walking speed looking for an address or street sign, the transmission can't settle on a gear. Little jerks and shudders come through as the transmission hunts for the right ratio. Disappointing in such a well-done car. "
I have experienced hesitation since day 1 with the 5 speed automatic transmission on this 5 month old car. There is a almost always a 0.25 to 0.75 second delay after the throttle is depressed especially after a coastdown of a few seconds (this scenario is common during turns) - the delay seems to be fairly constant. The vehicle then responds - forcefully, with an unpleasant jerk to say the least which is proportional to the pressing of the throttle. It seems that we should call this transmission hesitation and not engine hesitation, because the engine always responds immediately (as evidenced by the tachometer reading). I was a loyal TOYOTA fan before this, and am quite dissappointed with this.
My 1998 Corolla which was totaled never had a hint of hesitation and it sure does not feel good to buy a newer more expensive car and then have to live with this.
I am pretty sure that it is "as designed", but the design was stupid just to accomodate more mpg and/or EPA. Toyota will not admit this, but might just change the drive by wire design in the future years so that the hesitation does not occur. I do not think it is an I-4 or a V-6 or an SE / LE / XLE problem as ALL of these have the same 5 speed automatic transmission and the same drive by wire implementation.
In my honest opinion, this hesitation alone is reason enough for ANYone to avoid buying a new TOYOTA that has a drive by wire implementation. Come on - isn't a pleasant ride a MUST for ANY new car, leave alone a Toyota! Corollas, Echos and Matrixes may be Ok as they're not drive by wire.
The other things that I'm unhappy about in the 5 speed auto transmission are
1. The upshift from 2nd to 3rd gear (happens around 24 mph for my rate of acceleration) is so jerky that you could mistake it for someone rear ending you!
2. The downshift from 4th to 3rd gear (during coastdown happens at around 36mph) is unpleasant - not jerky but you feel a braking force - probably as a result of downshifting too quickly!?
My driving style is "grandfatherish" and therefore the transmission hesitation is NOT a safety issue in my case, but for someone with an aggressive driving habits, I definitely can see where it would be!
For someone who's reading this and claiming there is NO hesitation problem on their new 2005 CAMRY, all I can say is ARE YOU SURE !?
Scoti1, I drove an 04 Avalon and it seemed fine. Two reasons why I did not get the Avalon.
1. my camry felt fine the first time I drove it so I am still gun-shy about any Toyota.
2. I decided I needed to take my time and do some research on different cars I might be interested in before a purchase. I felt rushed.
I have no plans on purchasing an avalon.
This only happens when I am trying to drive "grandfatherish" by depressing the accelerator slowly. When I tromp it a bit, it responds normally.
I'm up to about 3,500 miles now and the issue has seemed to improve some as I put on more miles. But it is still present. Other than that, I've not had jerkiness or gear searching at speeds over 5 mph.
With the "intelligence" built into the ECT-i tranny, it may help to drive more aggressively, at least until it "unlearns" the hesitation.
I did see somewhere that disconnecting the battery for a while worked for one person. But for another, it didn't. I'm not bothered enough by the occasional off-the-line hesitation to try it.
I will say that it never hesitates when I tromp on it. Try tromping it a few times and see if you still get hesitation.
Good for you that the problem doesn't bother you too much.
Wish you many happy miles with your SE V-6!
dla2 - So if the problem continues to exist after they try to fix it (I hope they at least acknowledge that the problem exists), how do go about returning the car. Do I just tell the dealer that I want to return it?
Quite a few complaints over there of engine hesitation while turning. Toyota seems to be taking the position that the VSC is too sensitive. One poster said that in 4WD the hesitation didn't occur. Poster believed that the VSC was disabled in 4WD mode. I'm pretty sure that's true but only in part-time (diff'l locked) mode so I suspect the poster was referring to full-time 4WD.
For Toyota vehicles that have a 2WD mode VSC and Trac are definitely more aggressive. Or maybe it only seems so since the engine torque is applied to only two wheels and therefore slippage is more likely.
Some of posters were convinced that in 2WD mode the engine was dethrottled at the same time the brakes were applied in either VSC or Trac activation mode, whereas in 4WD mode the brakes were applied and the engine dethrottled later if the driver didn't.
Logically that makes sense, it's clearly more important to take both actions immediately in 2WD mode.
Trac is used, first and foremost to prevent wheelspin. Trac is also used to simulate a mechanical LSD in 2WD mode, and front, center, and rear LSDs in AWD/4WD, full-time, mode.
VSC uses the stearing wheel position sensor, the yaw sensor and vehicle road speed to determine if the vehicle is following the desired directional path. If the VSC determines that the vehicle is deviating from the desired path then the appropriate brakes are applied, moderately, ("groaning sound") and the engine is dethrottled, to prevent loss of control and hopefully bring the vehicle back into line with the stearing input.
All of us know, hopefully, that during a turn the rear wheels follow a different "path", radius, than the front, and the two front wheels' path differs also. With all these wheels turning at different rates how does the VSC/Trac system determine slippage?
That's the rub!
With front biased AWD torque stear may be playing a big part in the engine hesitation problem. Isn't the shorter halfshaft on all of these Toyota/Lexus vehicles on the right?
Anyone noticed that the engine hesitation happens more readily or more often when turning right vs left?
(8 months and 20,000 miles) trying to live with it then sold at a loss. I would park it at the dealership and say fix it or give me my money back. This problem will not go away. I am sticking with my original prediction that Toyota will fix it in future models but will never retro fit older ones so dump it now.
Out of curiosity, I followed up on that post about a Bash Toyota website.
The URL and the e-mail address are essentially the same, with only a subtle difference between them.
The post's conclusion is correct; it's a highly editorialized "vent your spleen" haven authored by someone evidently bent on promoting an obsessive dislike of Toyota. No doubt about it, the site's author is definitely on a mission, IMO.
Any similarity between truth and utter nonsense there will be purely coincidental.
You definitely made the right recommendation.
Thanks.