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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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Also, being that my TSIB didn't do anything, the delearship is contacting the technical service rep. at Lexus re: my RX330. Essentially, everyone that has been in my car has acknowledged that there is a problem (albeit not in writing), but corporate.
I experienced my first instance of unintended acceleration on Maui just two weeks ago. Turned out it was due to the floor mat having slipped so far forward it was over the gas pedal but behind the brake pedal.
I applied the brakes and the Mazda surged forward.
The car also has the hesitation/lag in transmission shifting.
Go back a few posts; you'll see several references to web links suggesting NHTSA was up to its ears in investigations into tranny hesitation.
Subsequent posts showed, on closer examination,
those links had nothing to do with hesitation--they concerned a study into reports of sudden accelleration. A different problem, with a different result.
It turns out the links showed NHTSA determined those reports to be driver error--exactly as you
later noted--not caused by design/technical problems.
I'm still not sure what motivation lay behind hyping those links as relating to hesitation--but the issue is now clarified.
So back to square one.
This is the link: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/results.cfm
If you are not referring to it, disregard this.
But if one goes to the above link, they will as I found, not be directed to the complaints page on hesitation/lag. Sorry, but there I could not find a direct link to my information. I had thought I did.
But below is the detailed way to get to it.
First, go to the hyperlink in this message.
Then, on the left, you will see hypertext they can click on. Under complaints, click search and a box will appear on the page. Hit search vehicle type, then 2004 (submit year), then select Lexus (submit make), then model (hit go), select passenger car (submit model/type), then finally under "select componant" drop down menu, find Power Train: Automatic Transmission. Hit retrieve complaints and a list of complaints will come up. On the first complaint, as many of them, hit GET SUMMARY on lower right of screen, and it's a complaint about hesitation/lag. 33 of them.
My NHTSA packet arrived in the mail yesterday and it'll be sent in today.
So no, not back to square one. We must continue to press on.
I thought you are an attorney or someone in the legal field?? Or did you say you have access to those legal database or something (or is that somebody else)?? I thought you should know the process more than anybody.
If anyone is interested, go read the lemon law of your State and should find a lemon law attorney for further questions.
Under California (Your State) Statute Section 1793.22 (The State Lemon Law), your application and resultant settlement would have been subject to three criteria levels.
Your Lawyer should have explained this to you before you approved him/her to proceed, even if he/she discussed the issue directly with Toyota.
You had the alternative to opt for Arbitration in this situation, but you previously indicated you went directly to a Lemon Law Lawyer, after which you received a "Cheque", which would indicate some kind of settlement one way or another.
You would be immediately apprised of that settlement and the reasons for it by your Lawyer.
The only way a direct Lemon Law application would succeed that abruptly has to do with specific and unique criteria.
You should be very much aware of that criteria.
Your brief summary of the conclusion of that settlement leaves much to the imagination.
Either you are not being entirely forthright in posting the result,or perhaps your story is a misunderstanding/embellishment, or a complete fabrication.
For someone with knowledge of the California system to believe your account, it would be asking a lot to accept it as is.
In my opinion, your story may very well be a fabrication, perhaps unintended, but it's not congruent with California State Lemon Law system and its rules.
At least not the way you've explained the events.
If you choose not to believe in my post, skip it and go on with your life. If you do, you can find a lemon law in your State and ask further questions. Or simply can ask Pilot130 since he seems to know a lot of stuff about law, especially when he is in Canada but are so familiar with California State Lemon Law.
Remember one thing though, if the attorney accepts your case, I think it should cost you nothing no matter what the outcome is.
One last thing. It appears the 4 times repair in CA lemon law is not a definite requirement. It said reasonable number of attempts to repair an issue. Also, I don't think the CA lemon law says it has to be done in 18K miles. Well, I could be wrong since I'm not a CA lemon law expert. For further questions, talk to the lemon law attorney of your state, or simply ask Pilot130.
I probably won't check this board anymore. Bye now. Good luck to everyone.
It also allows the manufacturer to remarket the car with the "lemon" label.
I am working diligently to get my hesitation issue resolved with Lexus. It may come to the point, which it is very close to, where I need to attempt to get Lexus to buy back the car using Lemon Laws.
But TheFlow, great, you had success. But for what? What was the problem with your car? Did the dealership document it on your paperwork? What details led you to hire the Lemon Law attorney in the first place?
I understand, that the issue may have left your hands and mind at that point. But I feel like the carrot has been dangled in front of me. And now you may have abandoned this board. I am having severe hesitation issues, and would like nothing more to get my car bought back as a Lemon.
But I was eagerly awaiting your response to see if I had a chance. I hope you will, because I'm getting most of my information and help from this message board. I'm not here to antagonize anyone or make false claims. Read my posts. I am very thorough. I just want to get my issue resolved, and I look at this board everyday hoping for a ray of hope. TheFlow gave me some. But how did you accomplish your goal up to the point of hiring an attorney, TheFlow?
Had a graphic reminder how bad our toyota's tranny and drive by wire system is.
Drove an 05 V6 Accord with 5 speed auto today and it really puts toyota to shame—in fact, absolutely no comparison. Imagine this--it actually accelerates WHEN you push the accelerator, not a few seconds later. Always downshifts smoothly and immediately to the right gear on demand also.
If toyota really can't figure out how to fix their problem, they need to fire their management and just send their engineers out to copy Honda's far superior drive by wire/5 speed auto transmission.
If you’re considering toyota vs Honda, Honda wins every time—by two or three seconds!
The customer failed to provide sufficiently compelling evidence to support the claim that the problems substantially impair the use, safety or value of the vehicle.
My recommendation to those who go to arbitration is to focus on the last three items only. Use, safety and value. I'm not sure what I would have done different or what my next step is but I am not bound by this decision, In other words, this does not limit any further action. The letter does state that the info can be used in any future legal proceedings. I'm dissapointed but I cant say I'm surprised.
You have to take your BEST shots in arbitration, not all the POSSIBLE shots---that dilutes your focus and your impact on the arbitrator IMHO. I would tend to view it as the "kitchen sink argument", something like "emotional stress".
Of course, it's your bat and ball, but I'm just sayin'.....
As I recall, several others vigorously downplayed my remarks by expressing some uncomplimentary sentiments about them--and yours truly.
It's not my intent to suggest "I told you so" to you or those acrimonous skeptics, but your case wasn't strong going in. It really wasn't
Arbitrations aren't the cakewalk some have been implying in this discussion.
As Shifty says, appellants need very compelling evidence to make a good case re substantial reduction in "use or value" because of a perceived condition.
Don't forget, the burden of proof is yours, not the other guy.
Hesitation in the context seen here, in spite of strong expressions of "buyers remorse" by some, isn't a valid reason for reduction in "use or value."
Pushing the safety button is even more rigorous--Shifty said that you need either a corpse or a serious injury, backed up with big time supporting evidence to get someone's attention re safety at arbitration. Make no mistake, He's absolutely right!
You now still have the option of Lemon Law--at least in most States.
Choosing the Lemon Law route will be much more rigorous however.
Some here are making it sound really easy-- a sure winner every time. No muss, no fuss, just sign up and wait for your cheque!! No cost, no obligation!!
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
That's why I discount the veracity of stories being touted here about Arbitration and/or Lemon Law settlements happening left and right.
Frankly, I don't believe most of them.
It just ain't like that.
But good luck to you in whatever you decide to do next.
I'm willing to offer whatever help I can, but I kinda get the impression most of the regulars in this discussion aren't open to anything that doesn't agree with their views on the issue.
And don't be surprised if all of the dealer folks, sales, service, etc, you have dealt with suddenly have tons of memory loss.
The public isn't always above reproach either.
Yes, you're right about retaining expert counsel/expert witnesses, but don't forget, it costs BIG bucks to do so........and what if you don't win??
Furthermore, if your case isn't a strong one, the best Lawyer in the world isn't a sure winner--but I'll be willing to bet he/she will still take the case regardless---as long as you're good for the fee!!
Arbitration is a lot like the court system IMO...you don't go there for "justice". You go there to outmaneuver the other guy within the confines of the "system".
So you have to know the system and play by those rules. If you go in feeling wronged and hurt and cheated, I think you have mis-stepped prior to the arbitration already. If you go in determined to work the system to your advantage, you have a much better shot. It almost requires emotional detachment---which is damn hard to do!
My training an Arbitrator sure didn't follow that philosophy, and I try very hard not even think that way whenever I hear an Appeal.
I look for facts and solidly corroborated evidence, and work damn hard at being impartial at all times.
If your analogy is what our legal system has come down to/or is becoming, then kiss democracy goodby--maybe not tomorrow, but inevitably.
Re "Big Bucks": I'll bet you haven't been quoted fees by big time Lawyers and Expert Witnesses in the past while. Thousands of $ isn't unusual. How many car owners are willing to risk that kind of cash for a chance at winning--or losing?
It's probably cheaper to just go and buy another vehicle.
PS: Read the latest John Grisham novel "The King Of Torts." Then go and get yourself a big time Lawyer to represent you in litigation re Engine Hesitation.
That'll get you nowhere in a hurry.
I also agree that simply unloading all your ammo in one big blast is a waste of time too.
More isn't always better.
It's much more effective to key on relevant components of your cause, do all the necessary homework for them, and then let natural justice take its course.
If the cause is just, then justice should prevail.
I just have a hard time with the "you go there to outmaneuver the other guy within the confines of the system" part.
Not sure about that.
I'm not naive enough to deny it happens, but it isn't quite kosher in my books, and seems it isn't about justice, it's about outfoxing at any cost.
The "end justifies the means" syndrome.
BTW, I thank you for hanging around. It enhances the integrity of this discussion.
Re Next Step Dla2: I have some confidence that Toyota can and ultimately will find a fix.
Might be worthwhile (and less costly) postponing any drastic action for a bit longer. After all, the vehicle isn't a total disaster.
Keeping your Cool
Anticipating What the Other Side is Going to Throw at You
Asking them to Prove What They Are Saying (I mean if you have to have documentation, why not them?)
.....stuff like that....
I concede.
This brief interlude about Arbitration was OK, albeit somewhat off topic. Better leave some room for the regulars now.
Perhaps there's a forum in the future dedicated to just that?
also - someone should be able to objectively quantify the severity of the hesitation if the vehicle is instrumented properly.
I commend you for giving it a go (arbitration). That was probably worth the effort. I wish it had worked out for you.
how would you know that they have the predicate mechanical, systems and human factors engineering expertise to judge the merit of the safety claim in an unbiased manner?
also pilot130 could tell us if any arbitrators ruling could be used by a claimant in another case? i don't think these outcomes can be used in that manner.
last but not least - what is the poor owner supposed to do if Toyota (or any manufacturer for that matter) refuses to document what they say when they go for a test drive? why would they want to fill out a Repair Order?
http://www.dcu.org/streetwise/feb2003.html
Bear in mind it refers to "Mandatory" Arbitration contracts used mainly by US Auto Dealers.
Not all arbitration services are mandatory by any means.
US Automakers, on the other hand, are mandated Federally to provide Arbitration, and the rules aren't quite the same. (Do that Google search to learn more)
US Individuals have other choices in Arbitration too.
I believe your Better Business Bureau, among other independent sources, offers Arbitration service, and they're not biased against the consumer in any way.
In my case, I am a Federal Appointee, and assigned cases under a completely different set of guidelines. Arbitration rules are quite a bit more stringent in Canada (and more consistent too) than US rules. Automakers here have little or no say in determining assignments for us.
We get paid a per diem and expenses by the Feds. Not paid much, but we don't do it for the money.
Like I suggest,above, use Google to inform yourself about the process. Everything you need to know is available on your keyboard!
"Automotive Dispute Resolution" works every time.
It'll avoid a lot of unnecesary speculation, and should put to rest much of the alarmist (for lack of a better word) rhetoric on the subject.
http://www.state.de.us/inscom/departments/consumer/autoarb.shtml
And New York
http://www.nysdra.org/adr/adr_lemon.html
These may be just for cases that are handled via state lemon law.
What I should have pointed out was that BBB is a far less restrictive alternative than the Mandatory Arbitration that Dealers often subscribe to.
Dealing with non binding BBB services by choice at least keeps other options open.
The Mandatory option has far too many closed doors.
BTW, I've got an interesting one on Wednesday this week. May want to e-mail you afterwards. You gonna have time?
Unless State Administered Arbitration for Auto Purchases is mandated in those States as the ONLY option, those procedures don't automatically apply.
I think that's the case--you can check this out as you see fit.
In most states, when you sign a purchase agreement to buy a car, you had better read the fine print or somehow determine if you may be locked into Mandatory Arbitration, with the Arbitrator chosen at the Dealer's discretion.
Unfortunately, buyers sign on to Mandatory Arbitration without knowing, and find themseves in a pickle with limited options when they decide to go the Arbitration route.
That's one of the reasons why I'm so skeptical about the veracity of some of the stories we hear in these discussions.
Say any RWD with a manual transmission.
It's unfortunate you felt obliged to get defensive.
No need to apologize--unless, of course you were intentional going in.
I just finished a 14 year stint of manual trans cars and trucks. My Highlander doesn't offer anything but an auto. I can only hope that all of the hand-wringing and re-engineering these auto-trans problems are causing will make manufacturers more willing to make manual transmission an option again.
As it is I guess it will be the BMW X3 with a manual transmission. God knows how long it will take the firmware design for these new ones to settle out.
The Maxima was hands down the best car I ever owned.
Josh5 –
Not trying to be mean and nothing personal. I know it's frustrating dealing with your car. But I need to tell you this. In my opinion, instead of logging in here, spend you time posting on these message boards that gets you nowhere, why not pick up the phone and call the lemon law attorneys in your area. They are the pros. They make a living by helping consumers. They probably spend their time helping consumers instead of posting on Internet message boards. Call the lemon law attorneys in your area and tell them what happened to your vehicle/repair history. Explain to them why you think it's an issue and see if they will accept your case. Ask them all your questions. Have them drive your vehicle and let them experience the hesitation. That's what I did. In my last couple of posts, I said the exact same thing. Call the lemon law attorneys in your area.
Someone mentioned the attorney fees are outrageous. Of course different lemon law attorneys charge their fees differently. I am in CA so it might not apply to your State. But I paid US$0! ZERO DOLLARS out of pocket! The fees are paid for by the manufacturer if I win. If I lose, I pay nothing and the attorney gets nothing. It's in the agreement between me and the attorney. In my opinion, this works great for the consumers because if the attorney is not confident or capable of winning, they won't even bother accepting your case. You think they will do all the work for nothing?? At the same time, I would assume most people will have some common sense. If the attorney fees are so high that it’s better off selling your vehicle in the used car market, will there still be lemon law attorneys around?? Will you even hire that attorney?? You need to use some logic and common sense here. Did I mention I pay NOTHING?? But of course if you really like that attorney and would like to pay no matter what the outcome is, then it’s none of my business.
As for how long it'll take, it took a bit over 4 months between the time when I signed the contract with my attorney and getting the check. But it is only in my case. I think it will be different for different cases.
You can also use the Internet to search for the lemon law in your State to get an idea of what your State's lemon law is all about.
If you have read this far, I wish you good luck.
dla2 –
I would open up the yellow page, and see if there are any lemon law attorneys practicing in your State. If there are, then I would bet this arbitration requirement is not strictly enforced. How can they make a living if everyone needs to go through arbitration before hiring a lemon law attorney?? But this is only my speculation. However, it doesn’t matter to you since you went through the arbitration already. In my opinion, the result of the arbitration might be used against you if you decided to pursue the lemon law route. Just call and ask a lemon law attorney.
ecotrklvr –
Thanks for the kind words.