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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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Then on 201 your lead horse stumbles and farts and you find yourself stalled in front of that on-coming fast moving traffic and you start to be concerned if the one in the lead is quick on the brakes and if those brakes are in really good repair.
...and, the dangerous situation is directly related to the non-responsivetransmission - wouldn't the fault thus lie with the transmission?
Once again, I do not wish to belittle or make light of the very annoying aspects of this hesitation problem. Like some of you I would not be a happy camper.
If there was a hesitation in the response to an application to the brake pedal, would you question the safety implications? Likewise, a hesitation in the response to a turning of the steering wheel, even just occasionally, would keep anyone from driving said vehicle. Yet, a hesitation in the response to an application of the accelerator leaves many with a conclusion that it's just an annoyance. This is, I admit, the least dangerous of the three scenarios cited above, but I can't see it as being just an annoyance. It is also clearly an annoyance - especially after paying between $25k-40k for a premium vehicle. Don't forget that, ironically, Toyota sells these vehicles with their "Star Safety" system. An annoyance? Clearly. But also, in some circumstances, more than an annoyance.
Imagine another scenario, where you get into a cab at the airport, and realize that the driver was having some sort of medical problem that made him apply the brakes a second later than he should, or hit the accelerator a second later than he should. I'd get the heck out of that cab find another one, fast. And I think you would too. Even if he didn't do it every single time.
I don't have this issue with any vehicle I own. Years ago, I had this problem briefly with a carbureted car, and fixed it fast - I hated the feeling of the delay. With carbureted cars, it wasn't uncommon to have such a problem with, say, a bad accelerator pump on the carb. Now that we've all been spoiled with excellent fuel injection systems, here it comes back again in the 21st century version.
I believe the chasm between those that have experienced this, and those that haven't, lies at least partially in the choice of the words used to describe it. After all, a "hesitation" isn't that threatening of a word. Who can't live with a little hesitation, right? Now I'm not quite ready to go to something like "Designed-in Engine Apathy To Hurry", with its frightening acronym. I'm kidding here, as an extreme example. Maybe Acceleration Drive Delay (ADD) would be more appropriate. No matter what we call it, those that paid extra for an upgrade from the base I-4 engine and 4-speed automatic trans, to the V-6 engine and 5-speed automatic trans, deserve to be able to get going/out of the way at least as fast as those with the I-4. Many of them can't. And many more of them can't do it reliably; and so to be safe, they don't even try anymore. I'd be ticked off as well; ticked off, and fearful that I'd stall while pulling onto an on-ramp, or across lanes during a left-hand turn.
This Acceleration Delay in Drive (ADD) makes us all less safe, just like that cab driver above. At risk are those that have the problem and know it; those that have the problem and don't know it yet; and those that drive on the same roads with them.
Every day that you drive your car you rely on certain aspects to operate correctly each and every time.
Now, the very first time the cars "balks" in some unusual way, after performing flawlessly otherwise for months and months we start looking for reasons, maybe even take it to the dealer and explain the symptom.
So, the dealer says "operating as designed" and so I continue on my way thinking whatever happened was maybe a one-time anomaly.
Then I get a repeat episode.
Now, and only now, does driver responsibility come into play.
So, that is the state of the state TODAY!
What do I now do?
In the spring of 1992 I decided to park my new 1992 LS400 until something was done to alleviate the strange instances of sudden windshield fogging. Luckily that was something I could accord to do at that time.
Arbitration, Lemon Law, trial by Judge, lost them all. How do you go about proving to the court that something serious, hazardous really, is wrong with the vehicle when replicating the symptom is dependent on very specific wintertime climatic conditions?
Specific conditions of which I was not aware until after the trial and I decided that if I wanted to keep the LS then I would be the "fixer".
And all the while Lexus is providing "expert" witness testimony that the climate control operates properly, as designed, in all circumstances.
Their expert witness even testified under oath that my action of turning up the blower speed to accelerate the defogging of the windshield actually exacerbated the problem.
Insofar as the windshield defog/demist/defrost mode of Lexus climate control design is concerned he was actually correct!
A note of caution to those of you who have not yet encountered the engine delay/lag/hesitation symptom.
DO NOT, NEVER, BEGIN TO BELIEVE IT DOESN'T EXIST IN YOUR VEHICLE!
At least not until Toyota and Lexus announce a fix for those vehicles that have had this problem and it becomes clear that the fix does not apply to your vehicle.
Oh, the 1992 LS..??
My lead software engineer drives it daily.
Since ~1993 we have disabled the A/C compressor during the winter months, and there is a switch under the dash that can be actuated before activating defog/demist/defrost mode. The switch adds a series resistance to the cabin temperature sensor and turns on 4 12 volt low volume cabin air extraction blowers mounted in the trunk. The added resistance makes the climate control ECU "think" the cabin temperature has just gone "sub-zero" (below freezing) and accordingly turns up the HEAT and the blower speed to max.
The 2004 RX330 (and others??) has new C-best options which allow the owners to disable the automatic operation of the A/C in normal mode and in defog/demist/defrost/mode.
You can also have the dealer set a c-best option that prevents the climate control system from changing outlet airflow modes from footwell (heating) to dash (cooling) once the cabin atmosphere reaches the temperature setpoint.
In footwell, heating mode a substantial level of system airflow is "bled" to the windshield interior surface to keep it warmed, hopefully above dewpoint, and thereby prevent instances of sudden windshield fogging.
If the system is allowed to switch from footwell mode then the windshield might be chilled to below the dewpoint by impinging cold airflow on the exterior during a wintertime drive.
Anyone owning an 04 or later Lexus might want to consult with the dealer about setting all of these options.
Lexus knew of the windshield fogging problem as far back as 1991 but choose to ignore. More than ten years later that have now reacted but are still keeping important knowledge from their buying public.
Maybe by 2016 we'll know how to cure the hesitation problem.
Does anyone know how this is being done?
Meanwhile I'm seeing these many complaints about engine acceleration lag, delay, or hesitation and a few of them seem to have to do with trying to accelerate while turning right or left.
The only instance wherein I have been able to replicate any sort of engine acceleration lag or delay in my 2001 AWD RX300 was in a tight turn with the gas pedal to the floor, literally. At about what I would consider the apex of my turn the engine died, or certainly appeared too. My educated foot was so quick to release the gas pedal and then reapply that I don't know what would have happened had I just stayed on the gas.
In any case if I were writing firmware/software specifications to prevent rollover one of the things I would look seriously at is limiting the engine HP in a tight turn.
Anybody have any factual input as too how the Volvo system works to prevent rollovers??
I believe we are seeing the transition from 1st Generation Star Safety, to Second Generation. The whole Early Adopter analogy with Computer equipment comes to mind - the early adapters are, essentially, guinea pigs for the late adopters. They get the benefits of the new technology first, at a higher cost, with a little aggravation thrown into the equation.
Now if your engine died every time you hit the gas hard, well, that would change my mind, sure.
Like they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence---that somehow an engine hesitation diables a car and directly causes an accident. That's pretty tough to prove seems to me.
So I tend to put this in the "VERY annoying category" but not a danger to drivers. Seems too extreme a claim given the evidence coming in to us here. My two cents anyway.
EXACTLY!
And therein lies the problem.
Suppose there were a few deadly accidents as a result of the sudden and spontaneous windshield fogging flaw in the entire Toyota/Lexus product line.
Where is the evidence?
"Now if your engine died every time you hit the gas hard, well, that would change my mind, sure."
You have obviously never had experience troubleshooting an intermittent problem in any type of equipment. Because it, the symptom, is intermittent doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't a safety factor.
As a matter of fact I would much rather drive the car you quote, "die every time", than one wherein one that only dies rarely.
Predictable failures can be adjusted for, adapted too, unpredictable ones cannot, and that's what makes them much more hazardous.
From what I'm reading, people are getting hosed at arbitration and at the dealer because they can't make the problem happen at will.
Frankly, and with all due respect to our host, I am stunned that you can state that this is not a safety issue.
Imagine driving along, with an 18-wheeler right behind you, and someone on a side street runs a red light. You can't brake or swerve, and you make a split second decision that the only way to avoid him is to accelerate out of the way. After one, or in my case two seconds, your car finally responds, but it's too late. If only you were a metre or two further ahead....
Safety is not only about you driving carefully, but about you having the skills and tools (ie car) to avoid the unpredictable morons out there.
Yes, I have now changed my driving to allow for the appalling responsiveness of my Toyota, but I can't change how other people drive. (Mind you, why the hell should I have to change my driving style which has kept me out of trouble for 25 years just because Toyota can't design their cars properly. Oh I forgot, it's performing within its intended design parameters.)
At the risk of repeating one of my earlier posts, Volvo and other companies who treat safety seriously, are now moving to LEDs for all brake lights (not just the middle one) as they activate tiny fractions of a second faster than bulbs - giving people behind a tiny improvement in reaction time to brake. Now Toyota gives me a car with effectively 2 MORE seconds reaction time to accelerate, IN AN UNPREDICTABLE MANNER. Now if that's not a safety issue, then I'll give it all away.
Fix this Toyota, you're a disgrace!
The scenario you bring up is a good example of how mushy this hesitation issue is as a safety rather than a driveability/serviceability/warranty issue.
Maybe you made the wrong decision and caused the crash by accelerating and not braking, or maybe the fault of the accident is with the person running the light says Toyota. Not a bad defense.
I'm not saying at all that the hesitation isn't there and isn't incredibly annoying and shouldn't be corrected at no cost to you. I'm just offering the opinion that it is much smarter IMO to pursue this as a "lemon" issue, as regards a degradation in serviceability, than as a safety issue, which is a huge can of worms and not likely to succeed for you, the consumer.
So my good intentioned advice was -- take the tack that is far more likely to help you with this problem. Claiming the car is dangerous won't get you or your fellow sufferers anywhere I don't think.
Given that the problem seems to be non-existant or minor in most cars, I would have thought that it would at least be worth trying this. (Realising of course that Toyota would be admitting a problem if it replaced one under warranty)
I don't accept that this is a driver style issue - anyone who drives my car notices the hesitation immediately - so given that most people who drive 3.0 and 3.3L Toyotas and Lexuses (Lexi?) think the cars are wonderful, I have to believe that most trannies and ECUs are OK. I can't explain why some are total duds, especially if it is a software issue as most people think, but there has to be a way we can get these things to perform like 99% of them out there.
Any thoughts?
As a result, I am looking at this more from a PR perspective than a legal one. Maybe, just maybe, we can eventually shame Toyota into doing something, before someone's family is wiped out. Or am I being too naive?
Part of my thinking has to do with the dealers keep saying these vehicles "learn" my driving style. Keep in mind that I don't believe that "learning" bit in the least.
But how, exactly, does the engine ECU "know" that the gas pedal is fully released? I could see some programmer assuming that if I'm on the brake pedal heavily then I certainly SHOULDN'T be on the gas pedal.
So what if, over time and having taken many samples of the gas pedal feedback signal while the brake is applied the engine ECU determines the "off" position of the gas pedal.
What happens then, if I "reset" the engine ECU to "clear" the learned memory, and then use left foot braking (implying that the gas pedal may still be depressed while braking) for the next few days.
Does the engine ECU then get confused as to where the gas pedal "off" position really is?
And if so wouldn't(couldn't) that pretty severely exacerbate the engine hesitation symptom?
perhaps you could tell me if these vehicles contain a module that retains system information up to and including the moment of airbag deployment...the same information some law enforcement agencies have used to prosecute in some vehicular homicide cases...
i'm thinking, perhaps quantity ONE person being able to demonstrate using objective data captured on the manufacturer's system, that the operator was making a control system input change (calling for accelleration) which the system didn't honor (vehicle speed slowing), and there being a resulting crash would be sufficient to warrent naming the manufacturer in a legal proceeding.
i'm thinking that for those with VSC, where say a steering angle sensor fails, or yaw rate sensor fails, and the vehicle safety system starts modulating brakes (which put the vehicle into the other lane or otherwise slows the vehicle) might be another good "test" case.
factually - consumers are relying on this automation - that there are no failure modes, or programming / implementation gulfs that can compromise our safety. our understanding of these systems is simplistic - we don't have access to manufacturer design, implementation, or test details.
Now, knowing this means I can try to anticipate incidents, but it would sure be nice to have confidence that pressing the accelerator will NOT result in an unsettling "pause" when I need POWER.
Annoying? Yes. Dangerous? I believe so.
In nearly 30 years of driving I have NEVER left-foot braked. I have the hesitation problem.
Hope this "testimony" helps.
I am anxiously waiting to hear about your outcome.
1. the hesitation has escalated to the point of being scary on a few occasions.
2. there is no question that the problem exists, the only question is how the hesitation effects the drivability of this car. (Toyota admits there is a problem)
3. even at an annoyance Toyota should handle the problem.
4. If Toyota says its operating as designed why are they trying to fix it.
One problem I may have is lack of documentation. I only have my service tickets. Is that enough?
Arbitration, like the courtroom, is a game of maneuver, not justice, and you should know the best way to play the game to your advantage.
The people who do best in arbitration are the ones who have good documentation, who present their case firmly and thoroughly, and who avoid areas where the evidence is slim or not within their grasp to present.
So whether one day NHTSA will uncover enough evidence and documented incidents to issue a safety recall is really not the issue right now in your arbitration. You have to rely on the facts of a) dealer unable to solve problem and b) serviceability and driveability of the product is greatly diminished.
Trying to prove that the car is dangerous is a blind alley in an arbitration, in my opinion. At best, you might give it a parting shot in one sentence at the end of your presentation, if that gives you satisfaction.
But as the centerpiece of your plea--I think they could easily demolish you.
I would play devil's advocate here but I realize it is annoying and I'm sure others here could assume Toyota's defensive position regarding safety (if for no other reason than to get the petitioner into better shape for the big day).
I have a 2003 4-cyl Camry XLE which has been fine and I logged about 20K mi. About 3 months ago, as I accelerated onto a freeway on-ramp, the engine all of a sudden stalled/hesitated for a second or so. Then it picked up speed as I floored the gas. Even since, the car lost its peppiness. I had to really push the gas pedal to make it move.
When I try to accelerate right after braking to, maybe, about 20-30 mph, the car feels very very sluggish.
I changed the transmission oil and air filter. No change. I don't think the spark plugs needs any attention until 36K miles. So I am not sure what has happened. Intake is leaking? VVT is not working? EGR Value? One of the smog hoses unplugged? Bad gas? Air bubble or moisture in the fuel line? Is there a separate fuel injector for acceleration/cold start?
I want to take it in for a service, but I am afraid the clueless dealer will probably say I need a $500 major maintenance and will get at most an oil change and spark plug replacement. I am not sure if the dealer would ever concede there is a problem.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Stone2
So what's wrong with just getting in the habit of downshifting manually in this instance?
Does that in fact cure the hesitation---is what I'm interested to know--or is that not in fact a sure-fire solution.
When I'm coming up to a RED traffic light I have no real way of knowing when it will change to green. If it just happens to do so before I come to a full stop then my transmission "MAY" have already been made BUSY upshifting.
I'm sure there many other instances but frankly to protect oneself from them all one would need to manually downshift each and every time the gas pedal is fully released.
Additionally, in the aformentioned case I would want to downshift all the way into 1st. But in many instances while the transmission might actually go into first that may not be the optimal gear for me to be in.
So, lift my foor from the gas pedal and then downshift....Now, QUICKLY, which gear, 2nd or 1st?
That Help?
1. In a Kluger/Highlander/Camry with a conventional auto transmission, it is actually rather difficult to pull it back quickly into precisely the right gear. If you're doing it quickly, it's very easy to overshoot and pull it back a gear or two too many. It may possibly be a bit easier in a Lexus with tiptronic (or whatever it's called) - I don't really know. I certainly wouldn't want to be doing this in an emergency situation.
2. If I wanted a manual transmission, I would have bought one. Why should I be forced to drive a brand new, supposedly state of the art auto like a manual because Toyota/Lexus can't get it right? We're not talking about a 1985 Hyundai or Yugo here. In other words, these cars are not performing to their intended purpose. They should be fixed or replaced. Period.
this is one of the slippery slopes of complex systems with automation that doesn't support a natural mental model...suggesting that the human modify their learned behaviors to compensate for a system design, implementation or operational gulf which does not perform as one would expect in the first place.
kind of like telling every owner: "they all operate this way [get used to it]" or "everytime you need to apply the gas at slow speed...anticipate the hesitation...expect a delayed engine response...and factor that in"
...and now..."shift down".
if it mitigates the problem - you're potentially futher burdening the operator of the vehicle. that's a safety issue in itself.
When I shift from 5th to 4th in my car (a manual), well then this is totally predictable; ditto when I shift my friend's BMW automatic from o/d to 3rd (1998 model), it is a surefire and predictable event.
So what you are saying is that if you downshift the Toyota trans you arent' sure what you are going to get--in other words, the outcome is always in doubt?
This makes me very curious. What would be a likely candidate for me to test drive and check this out? (make, model, year). Thanks.
>>
So what you are saying is that if you downshift the Toyota trans you arent' sure what you are going to get--in other words, the outcome is always in doubt?
>>
i don't know if your response was aimed at me - but if so - no that's definitely not the point i was trying to make.
1. It doesn't happen in every vehicle.
2. It isn't always apparent at initial purchase.
3. It doesn't happen every time you slow then accelerate, at least for some. I believe some have said (borrert?) that they get the hesitation every time.
If it were completely predictable (you know it is going to hesitate every time you slow to 20 - 30 mph then accelerate) the driver can adjust their driving knowing this, but there are circumstances beyond the driver's control where it is necessary to get a normal response from the accelerator when you push it. Compensating for it by manually shifting, if that is even a plausible solution, would make sense in the short term to allow the owner to more safely drive the vehicle, but it is not an acceptable solution to the problem, in my opinion.
That would forewarn the driver that the transaxle is BUSY and not available for downshifting for quick acceleration. Too late for manual downshifting but at least the driver wouldn't inadvertently get stuck with a "stalled" engine in a BAD situation.
Assuming, of course, that I am right about the inadvertent upshifting during coastdown being the core fault.
To me, however the major problem, as I said before, is the difficulty in quickly pulling back a conventional shift into exactly the right gear without overshooting and landing in 1st.
To me, this is just not a viable solution, not even in the short term.
A novel concept though - a faulty tranny which actually tells you when it's faulty ;-)
I never touched that post!
No, honest.
Really.
I wouldn't have noticed one was missing, but I saw a post after mine that was in reply to my post. I didn't have time to take a look at it then. When I logged back on last night it was gone.