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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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As far as no accidents reportedly attributed to hesitation, I strongly believe that if it hasn't happened yet it is merely a matter of time. That is my opinion. The anecdotal experiences of others at Edmunds, in the Post-Gazette articles, and other websites supports this.
My point of view re: Probability of future reports in this forum of accidents due to tranny hesitation.
Given the ease to do so anonymously, with no concerns about accountability, I'm certain anyone determined to validate their contention can, and will create at least one--any day now. This also goes to the next comment.
To DLA2--my point of view re your comment: "Every post here could actually be by just one person creating a fictitional problem"
I don't think it's happening a lot, but it is child's play for one person to post at these Edmunds forums from a single PC using multiple E-Mail addresses. Most DSL internet providers currently allow up to a dozen discrete E-Mail addresses from a single PC. It certainly can, and I'm sure does happen. Even without DSL service, one person can easily do it using all the different free E-Mail sources out there today--Yahoo, Hotmail, MSN, etc.
I am the owner of a 2005 ES 330 with 1,600 miles. When did the hesitating tranny start for you, from the start or after a while?
Specifically:
1) When moving at perhaps 55kph (about 34mph) with NO pressure on the accelerator or brake, the car seems to pull back quite noticeably, as though under light but sudden braking. Likewise, if you have have your foot lightly on the brake, it suddenly feels as though the brake is biting much harder.
2) When moving down a gradual slope at a constant speed around 50 to 60kph (31 to 37mph), with no pressure on the accelerator, the car suddenly jolts forward, at maybe 3 or 4kph greater speed. It's enough to require braking.
It also happens when slowing down for traffic lights at lower speeds. You're just slowing down with nothing on the accelerator, and the car suddenly speeds up a bit.
I'm 99% sure these are related to transmission downshifts and upshifts. Other cars I have driven will certainly shift gears in such situations, but I have never noticed the sudden increase or decrease in speed when this happens.
As I said, it's more of nuisance value, but I'd be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this, and whether it bugs you.
Thanks.
What I did say was that "A story about an alleged accident would no doubt appear here soon."
There is a wee difference in import between my comment and your version of it.
To clarify my meaning:......
My stated viewpoint is that the alleged safety issue re hesitation is driven much more by emotion than fact.
Hence I said: "We will likely see a post here soon about an alleged accident."
I supported that viewpoint by further stating: "Given the anonymity and lack of accountability in forums like this, anyone, [including you or I], could post an alleged accident story to validate their contentions."
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For User777:
That analogy about sudden high RPM accelleration on slippery/icy roads certainly provides some pretty scary imagery.
However, My view is that the reality in such road conditions would dictate VERY cautious driving technique, with VERY light throttle application at all times.
I agree with you that aggressive throttle application to high RPMs in hazardous road conditions would be an unusual, almost irrational action.
The 2005 ES330 loaner that I drove yesterday seems markedly better than all the almost dozen or so 2003/2004/2005 ES300, ES330, RX330s that I've driven. This car has 6K on the odometer.
There was no perceptible hesitation that I could percieve, and I do understand what other users have posted are complaining about becuase I had to change the way I drive too. THIS ES330 is predictable and actually fun to drive.
Of interest though, the NHTSA is not including '05's in their investigation.
Isn't it correct there is no investigation at this time?
As I understand it, NHTSA reports they have yet to determine if one needs to be opened.
The Pittsburg Gazette quotes NHTSA as saying: " [It is their intention] to determine whether to go forward with a full investigation."
Evidently it's also correct that there are a variety of other makes and models besides Toyota and Lexus where the same problem is being reported.
Furthermore I believe to Toyota's credit, they are the only automaker recognizing that there may be a problem and are trying to find a fix for it?
BTW, my Tranny Technician friend says he has a fix which he knows from experience improves the condition--not just for Toyota, but for any make or model with that kind of condition.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05036/453222.stm
Has anyone else seen this behavior?
egoodson
2005 SE/4 cyl./5A
I am still trying to avoid arbitration/lemon law buyback on my 2004 RX330. As post #115 states, I duplicated transmission problems at a dealership and they had no fix for the problem. Early Feburary, I opened a case with Lexus customer service, and they set an appointment for me to meet with a corporate representative at the dealership on February 23.
This is a good start, but I'm driving a documented malfunctioning vehicle that I don't feel safe driving.
So I asked the dealership to put me in a loaner car for the 20 days between then and my appointment. They declined. I have now made two calls to my customer service representative (who I haven't directly reached) regarding my concerns...that I'm driving a malfunctioning vehicle, and it won't be looked at until Feb. 23, and it's unsafe. My request is for them to put me in a loaner vehicle until that time. I am supposed to get a response by Feb. 11. I will let you know what happens.
But more importantly, stay tuned for my Feb 23/or soon after update on my experience with corporate. So far, it doesn't seem like anyone has taken this step. They've just went from dealing with the dealer to arbitration. Believe me, I'm frustrated too, but realize you can open a case with customer service and get to the next level. If they tell you your case of hesitation is documented (which they told me), then instead of hesitation, tell them your transmission is being erratic and unpredictable and give them details of rpms etc.
As soon as I get back home I will have one of my hardware engineers design a circuit so I can monitor the ECU commands to the electrical control solenoids (3) to the transmission in my 2001 AWD RX300. I will then experiment with applying throttle at the very instant I see the ECU command an upshift due to closed throttle coastdown.
My 2001 does not have an e-throttle but I will expect to learn just how long it takes to complete the "just" commanded upshift and then do the downshift required as a result of the new throttle application.
Tomorrow I will also place an order for the shop manuals for the 2004 RX330.
If, as I suspect, Toyota cannot provide a fix absent paying huge CAFE penalties, perhaps they will "embrace" an aftermarket product that prevents the upshifting altogether.
Maybe even buy an RX330 and write it off as an R&D experiment.
1. a meeting at my dealership with myself, a toyota representative, the service manager and an arbitrator. Or
2. Send all my paperwork and documentation to a 3 person panel and they would decide my case with no one else present.
Of course I choose #1. They have 40 days to complete the arbitration process. No date has been set yet.
Do you know if the decision at arbitration is final? i.e., if they don't find in your favor, can you continue pursuing this down other avenues (not sure what those avenues would be -- lawsuit, possibly)?
I believe the more info that comes out about this problem the stronger my case is. Like I said in a previous post the real turning point for me was when Toyota admitted they had a problem.
If I loose I will probably trade the car and take the hit without any further action. I'm spending too much time on this already.
http://tools.batauto.com/index.php?crn=207&action=show&sh- - ow_products_mode=cat_click
what about driving the vehicle, re-creating the hesitation, and capturing it via the scantool into a PC for purposes of proving your point?
is there an ODBII expert in the house?
You may want to do some research on other arbitration cases. I can't remember where I read it now -- maybe in the Highlander Problems and Solutions discussion or possibly on the Florida Attorney Generals summaries of arbitrations (the only state that seems to have these summaries as far as I can tell). There was a case that I read about where the arbitrator decided against the car owner because the problem WAS widespread. It sounded like the arbitration was for people who bought a lemon, not for a model where a **large** number are lemons. Sorry about my poor recall on this but I will see if I can find more on that for you.
Your preconceived notion of Arbitrators as incompetent dullards is disturbing. ( You didn't quite say it that way, but your message was clear)
If you exhibit that notion in any way at the arbitration *you claim* you're heading into, it won't help your case much.
Perhaps your impression of them is tainted by the fact that: (1)Personal contact/conversation/whatever with you by them is a breach of ethics, (2) ANY discussion of the matter before them outside the hearing is a no-no, and (3)They are obliged keep you at arms length throughout. Saying little and avoiding you is no indication of intellect, it's part of the job.
Furthermore, becoming an arbitrator is a whole lot more than just "passing an arbitrator's course!!" Your negative remarks about that are little offensive, and I find myself wondering if it wasn't a left handed insult directed at yours truly.
One more thing.
The burden of proof in arbitration is upon you, not the manufacturer.
If you fail to convince the arbitrator you have a legit claim, don't point blame at anyone but yourself.
And yes, different arbitratiors may make different decisions in the same set of circumstances.
Given the relaxed rules of evidence in such proceedings, that can happen. But I know for a fact that arbitrators in general try to be as fair minded and objective as possible.
Regardless of your opinion of those in the system, it sure beats what's in second place.
Any thoughts on the relation between the blown engine and the transmission issues? We were jerked around by Toyota when the engine blew initially. We were immediately told they would replace the car and they later backed off that position and said the car was fixed and if we didn't like it we could go through arbitration. We are now thinkin that we will have to go through that process if they can not provide a fix for the transmission issue. Any tips would be appreciated.
#2391 of 2420 Drifting left, arbitration won! by pemarsh Jan 12, 2005 (10:18 pm)
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I met with a toyota rep and the arbitrator a couple weeks ago...took the van for a drive, and the decision by the arbitrator was a new vehicle for me.
The process is very easy, and quite quick actually. Everyone was very nice.
I told both the toyota rep and the arbitrator that if the toyota field service tech rep took my concerns more seriously, it probably would not have came to this.
All four tires had serious wear problems. It is unknown if the drifting to the left was a result of bad tires, or the other way around. Toytoa would not even discuss changing tires with me several months ago...they said everything was ok. I took the van to 3 other tire places...all said the tires were shot (miles=10000).
Below is a copy of a post in the Highlander Problems and Solutions forum regarding recent arbitration experience. She states that she "was denied {under arbitration} because 'Toyota should repair under warranty'."
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#2014 of 2398 Re: Another complaint option [hmurphy] by leighanne4 Nov 18, 2004 (11:33 pm)
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Thank you so much for this new address. I have just filed a complaint at autosafety.org. I have completed the arbitration process and was denied because 'Toyota should repair under warranty'. I will pursue this until all options are exhausted including lemon laws and class action lawsuits. If anyone is going to go the arbitration process please use all avenues available and this should include having an independent mechanic verify the problem and have it notarized for presentation to the arbitrator.
There are several other things which I wasn't aware of until after the fact but documentation and spend as long as it takes in the 'drive test'
to make sure the arbitrator has a full knowledge of what this car is doing. They will assume it is hesitating from stop to start rather than cutting out in the 20 to 30 mph range. In other words ....Be Specific and use the time to your benefit.
I have a small refundable deposit placed on a 2005 Solara SE Sport 4cyl Automatic. Has anyone experienced the hesitation problem in the 4cyl Solara or Camry. Your prompt feedback will be greatly appreciated!! Curlyq
You could use the advanced search feature to the left to see if you can find others. It does not seem to be evident in every vehicle, but I am still not sure if this problem is noticeable from the beginning and can be detected in a test drive or is it something that becomes more apparent as you drive. Another poster here suggested driving several of the same vehicles to see if you can tell a difference. The hesitation, when present, is apparent when you slow down to about 20 mph then try to accelerate -- as in merging onto a highway or slowing as you approach a red light then accelerate before stopping when the light turns green.
Say you want to merge into traffic from a low RPM, just shift into "S" and downshift one gear, and then it'll immediately take off.
First, some history.
I have a 2001 AWD RX300.
When I first got this vehicle I started to notice that occassionally, but rarely, it had an abnomal "seat of the pants sensor" "feel" in two specific circumstances.
Coming up to a stop sign or stopping for a traffic light just before coming to a full stop it would "surge" forward, just as if someone bumped me slightly from behind.
The other instance was often at highway cruise when I would let off the gas the vehicle would feel as if the brake were released, sort of a slingshot effect, something that had been restraining the forward motion had suddenly been "freed" up.
In the beginning I simply wrote this "feel" off as an attempt to alleviate the hazards of engine compression braking on the front wheels by upshifting the transmission during coastdown.
Until....
I'm a DIY'r so each and every time I change my engine oil I check the condition of my transmission fluid. The 2001 RX300 does not require transmission fluid servicing for the life of the transmission, according to the owners manual. At ~38k miles I noticed that my transmission fluid was beginning to smell burnt aand darker looking than normal.
My 2001 RX300 has the towing package, the extra tranmission fluid cooling radiator in front of the right front wheelwell and the hitch was removed the week I purchased the vehicle, new. It has certainly not seen anything anyone would consider rough service.
I sent Lexus email inquiries about this twice and both times I was told to take the vehicle in to the dealer. When I finally did take it to the dealer I was told that the service schedule had been revised and my transmission needed to be drained and flushed, fully, every 15,000 miles.
Then I started seeing postings all over the internet car forums about Toyota and Lexus vehicles having some sort of engine acceleration lag or delay. In the beginning it seemed mostly to be the FWD vehicles equipped with the V6 engine.
My curosity was aroused and since I already have both the 2000 and 2001 RX300 shop manuals I started looking into the situation, mostly for my own benefit so as to maybe learn why my transmission fluid was "wearing out" prematurely. But it was also about then that I started see postings of early, premature, transmission failures, 50,000 miles to 70,000 miles, in vehicles of my RX generation.
What I discovered was that the transmission in my RX was completely and totally electronically controlled with regards selection of which gear it is in at any given time. That shift lever you move does nothing but close some electrical contacts that are used to tell the engine ECU what the driver wants or intends.
Okay, history lesson over.
IMMHO when Toyota/Lexus started using electronically controlled transmissions that offered them two new opportunities.
1. By upshifting the transmission when the gas pedal is fully released the fuel economy of the vehicle could be extended, increased (somewhat, substantially??).
2. Engine compression braking on FWD has always presented something of a problem for the manufacturers as it has the potential to lead to loss of directional control if the roadbed surface is slippery enough, especially on a curving downhill drive.
If you go to the AAA site you will find that for safety reasons they are now recommending that you shift your FWD into neutral to recover control if you have a circumstance of understearing or "plowing", or even overstearing or skiding, however unlikely that latter is for FWD.
The Cadillac FWDs using the high HP/torque Northstar engine uses an over-running clutch to prevent engine compression braking altogether.
According to the RX shop manuals the electronic control of the RX transmission operates in an "open loop" fashion. Once the correct solenoids are activated to select a new gear ratio the only way the ECU "knows" that the "shift" to the new gear ratio selection has been fully completed is to compare the engine RPM with the rotating speed of the transmission output shaft.
According to these manuals it takes 1.2 second to shift from neutral to drive, and 1.5 seconds to shift from neutral to reverse.
So, you're coasting slowly up to a red traffic light, your transmission has JUST begun an upshift seqence that will take 1 second to complete and now the red light turns to green and you apply pressure to the gas pedal.
But now your engine ECU says WAIT!
It must wait for the upshift to be complete before it can command the appropriate downshift for your new command via the gas pedal. So, the engine ECU simply does not allow the electronically controlled throttle to respond to the gas pedal position until the upcoming downshift is complete.
And just what have you done in the meantime?
You pressed the gas pedal a tad harder since you didn't feel any engine reaction to the initial pressure, and now a little harder even?
BAM!
Suddenly the engine ECU recognizes that the transmission has completed the downshift into the appropriate gear ratio and allows the e-throttle to respond to your now fully(??) depressed gas pedal position.
Sound all too familiar??
There seems to be some indication that the hesitation is worse if you are accelerating, or attempting to accelerate, and turn a corner at the same time.
Now I don't pretend that my 2001 AWD RX300 exhibits the same delay or hesitation symptoms as is being described in the various posts, only the "bumped from behind" or "slingshot effects".
But just to check I did take it out and turn several accelerated turns in it.
What I discovered was that at, or near, the apex of the turn, with the throttle wide open, the engine seemingly died. Old habits never die so apparently from experiences of long ago (carburator accelerator pump) I quickly released and reapplied the gas pedal and the engine responded.
Did the VSC sense an "impending" rollover and dethrottle my engine? Maybe.
And a bit more.
My 2001 RX300 has a mechanical throttle connection.
So, in a sense, when I depress the gas pedal the engine MUST (WILL!) respond.
Let's assume, for just a moment, that the reason for the burned fluid and later the premature failures in the transmissions of my 2001 RX generation are actually the result of that mechanical throttle coupling. When I press the gas pedal the engine DOES respond, immediately! So what if the transmission is still in the upshift sequence, it had better downshift into the proper gear in a big hurry.
It does.
But on the way is there possibly times when two counter speed clutches are engaged, inadvertently, simultaneously, only for a few milliseconds, but enough that over time these clutches will wear out prematurely.
The fix for future (beyond 2001) vehicles.
Ahhhh... Let's use an e-throttle.
If the engine doesn't res
Ahhhh... Let's use an e-throttle.
If the engine doesn't respond to the gas pedal input then we can take all the time we need to get the transmission into the proper gear. one second, two seconds, what does it matter?
But why no fix for 04 and after?
CAFE & CARB.
Fleet Average Fuel Economy and California Air Resources Board!
Its perfectly fine for an automatic transmission to upshift when we lift the throttle slightly, most earlier transmissions with fluid "computers" did just that. But what did they do if we quickly closed the throttle and then applied the brakes?
I recently drove a BMW X3 and when I let of the gas pedal completely it felt as if I had buried an anchor in the concrete behind. Overstated but I want to convey the idea that the X3 exhibited tons of engine compression braking.
So, why can't Toyota and Lexus quickly revise the engine ECU firmware so that the transmission is actually downshifted when the gas pedal is lifted, or even as a minimum the transmission isn't upshifted.
I have no idea when this upshift "feature" was added, possibly at the same time they switched over to electronically controlled transmissions. But that would mean revising the firmware in MILLIONS of vehicles. How adversely would that affect CAFE? Or maybe more importantly CARB?
Could the penalties run into the $MILLIONS, or even possibly $BILLIONS??
if i had to postulate my own theory: a non-linearity or discontinuity (perhaps slack) in the feedback of either the pedal or throttle position sensor or associated linkage, near the zero throttle position, where both the pedal and the throttle dwells a considerable amount of time.
wwest - does your manual indicate what type of transducer (i.e. rheostat, variable potentiometer, optical encoder, rotary variable differential transformer, etc. is used in these two places of the design)?
You're slowing to a stop, and just as the transmission starts the programmed upshift you apply gas pedal pressure...
How often does the average driver encounter the above circumstance?
Additionally in order to incur the most delay the driver must depress the gas pedal EXACTLY as the upshift begins.....
But personally I think the most valid part is why it hasn't been fixed. Revising the firmware to avoid a 1 to 2 second acceleration delay cannot be such a great deal so there must be a reason why it hasn't been fixed.
Given the PR disaster already in the works a very high level of priority to find a fix would be in the works.
Otherwise it is just happenstance that your gas pedal depression co-insides with the upshift command.
Toyota would likely have to make a major recall and replace a lot of transmissions (or whatever is causing the problem) if they admitted knowing what causes the problem. And, as other posters here have indicated, it may go further than the transmission! If there were multiple elements of the car that needed to be changed, the situation would get to be really expensive.
What puzzles me is why they continue the current design into other and newer vehicle models, if they think there may be a safety issue.
Sometimes companies decide that the lessor of two evils is the one paying tons of legal fees to fight justified liability claims.
Essentially - it is a saftey concern by virtue of the fact that the system does not respond in a predictable and repeatable manner supporting what has been learned by the operator from the time that person has learned how to operate a vehicle...
I argue, this causality is operationalized on a deep, non-conscious level and affects how your brain estimates all sorts of parameters which impact what is done next.
When the system behavior doesn't fit the learning (model), there can be excessive time and mental effort spent reconciling the discrepant experience. While distracted, your other actions may result in a crash.
I don't think it's as simple as what happens when you let off the gas. That seems to put the burden on the vehicle operator who is following.