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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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I went on a road test with the factory rep, and head of service for the following problems...that the service writer worded and typed on my paperwork using the following language...his language:
1: When accelerating, the transmission takes up to 2 seconds to accelerate.
2: When accelerating, the vehicle does not stay into gear, it downshifts at least two-three gears.
3: When down shifting, the RPM's will ocassionally hit 6000 RPMS under light acceleration.
4: RPMS hang up ocassionally at 4000 RPMS, even when acceleration pedal is released.
OUTCOME as typed on paperwork for all of the above:
Normal condition. Vehicle is shifting as designed.
Okay, so I went into the dealership and met with the factory rep and head of service. The factory rep asked me what my problems were and I started with the engine hesitation. He became immediately upset at me, telling me that many RX customers are unhappy with their transmissions, but they're operating normally. I had printed out this message board, the newspaper articles from the links, and the Avalon review from the link. This is over 100 pages! I showed it to him and he didn't want to see/read one word. He also stated that he was not aware of the possible NHTSA investigation, or that Toyota was trying to work on the problem. He actually said he's usually the last person to hear about these things. (Great, huh?)
That discussion is summerized, but after discussing all my issues, we took a road test.
It is important to here state, that on my way to the dealership, my RX was driving very well, except for hesitation which was much less than usual. Other than the test drive before purchasing the vehicle, this is the only time somone other than myself (my girlfriend in this case) has driven the RX for an extended period. She is very light on the gas pedal. My point is that the car seemed to be driving fairly fine, but I had not driven it for its last 1K, and yes, I drive hard and expect performance. Very different than her.
During the road test, this was a factor. I will here state, and if you look at past post of mine, that I was able to duplicate above conditions for the dealership's shop foreman. However, during this test drive, I was not able to induce the problems to the extent I did in the road test with the foreman over a month prior.
First, I demonstrated the high RPMs, of which the factory rep had no comment. But they were at 5K instead of 6K as with the foreman. Then I demonstrated the hesitation, and he said it's normal. I then duplicated that when accelerating, the car does not stay in gear, and downshifts 2-3 gears. He said 5th to 4th to 3rd when onramping onto the freeway was normal. But how about into 2nd? No comment. After, on city streets, I was able to make the RPMs stick at 4K, even though my foot was off the gas, but it was just for a moment. The RPMs have stuck for up to 3 seconds appx. in the past.
Now here's the thing. He said he didn't notice anything unusual, or abnormal. And honestly, the RX was not acting up as it usually does. He told me there's nothing he could do for me. I then suggested he talk to the shop foreman which he agreed to do.
Overall though, he was very frustrated with me during the whole drive, as I could not duplicate the conditions to the extent I indicated. However, he said that Lexus has an excellent warranty and to bring the car back if I have any problems.
I left and drove the vehicle the rest of the day, and after putting 50 more miles appx. on it, began to get the problems again, including a more pronounced hesitation. Perhaps this verifies why many/all of us did not notice it during the test drive. That is, we didn't drive it before. My point is, it appears that when driven hard for some time, the RX develops problems. But when driven very lightly, like mine was when my girlfriend was using it, it adapts, and the shifting changes. Afterall, it is an adaptive transmission. This may explain the difference between RX drivers' opinions on the transmission. HOWEVER, even when my girlfriend was driving the car, the hesitation was still present.
I called the dealership the next day and let them know my car was acting up. The factory rep had spoken with the shop foreman that said I had demonstrated the problems. But the factory rep and dealership have concluded, even though I once demonstrated the problems, that the vehicle is operating normally.
Anyway, so I'm frustrated, and don't feel that my issues will be addressed at this time. I also feel that, based on my experience with the factory rep, arbitration would be unsuccessful, if it's my word against theirs, even if I duplicated the problems.
So my question is; is there any 04/05 car right now that DOESN'T have problems? I was looking at the Nissan Z and it has issues. What do I get? Since I don't want to have this stray off topic, simply, is there a website that says it?
I don't know if any of my above feedback helps, but I'm just trying to be patient and informative. I still will take (at least) 2 more steps before giving up. I will have 1 or 2 more Lexus dealerships look/road test the transmission. Also, I will try to have an independent mechanic test the transmission to see if there's any problems.
Thanks for reading the long post.
Not great, but one good thing anyway.
As to what's good in the '04/'05 vehicles, how about a Nissan Murano or it's Infiniti counterpart, the FX-35 (or 45). Me, I like the Nissan Pathfinder, but you'd be trading down from Lexus.
Host
What it said was that with 60 seconds of starting the car, putting it in gear and into motion, it will "map" your personal driving style into one of the modes, sport, moderate, or passive. Once it has accummulated 3 minutes of history it will now be able to "map" your driving style, adaptively, into as many as 10 modes, depending on roadspeed, etc.
Thereafter it only keeps a running record, history, of just the past three minutes of your driving style, and might even remap you into one of the other modes if "history" warrants.
I have no real idea which marque this might apply to but it was origined, seemingly, by one of the european manufacturers.
I share your frustration, and I believe that Toyota will not be able to resolve this design flaw in the current vehicles.
This annoying problem has also been reported by owners of the Sienna minivan, the Highlander, Solara, and Camry LE/SE models.
Before purchasing my new Camry, I read every magazine review available. NOT ONE ARTICLE mentioned the trasnsmission/throttle hesitation defect.
I can't believe Lexus also has this problem. If I had just spent $40,000 on a Lexus, I would be angry.... VERY angry. Good luck, and please keep us updated on your progress with the dealer.
And for those who advised trading in the car. I am getting only offers of 25K for a 40K car, not even a year old, under 7K miles. What a shame this all is for us. Would just like it to be over.
Since day one, I noticed a very annoying hesitation and jerk in the transmission when trying to accelerate from low speeds. It seems as if the engine/throttle/transmission/computer does not know what gear to go into.
I chalked this up to being a new vehicle, and not yet broken in. But after 2,500 miles, the problem persists and is not getting any better.
I also noticed this hesitation flaw when trying to enter a freeway onramp, or when trying to pass at higher speeds. The car won't downshift properly, hesitates for 1 or 2 seconds, and the transmission "jerks."
I have owned 2 other Toyota and Honda vehicles in the past, and never had any problems. I am very disappointed in the '05 Camry. The car I traded in was a 1995 Camry LE, 4cyl. That was a very good driving car, Very quiet, with a silky-smooth transmission. No hesitation or jerk whatsoever. I should have kept that car!
Regarding my new '05 Camry, I give up. Toyota has much more time, money, and lawyers than I do. My dealer says the hesitation/jerk problems are not a design defect. Their argument is: "That is how the electonic transmission was designed. It is performing normally."
I give up the fight. The big guys win. I had to change my driving style in order to compensate for the poorly performing electronic throttle/transmission. Safety is a concern now. They can't fix it, so I have to live with it.
HOW DID EDMUNDS NOT NOTICE THIS FLAW WHEN THEY TEST DROVE THESE NEW TOYOTA VEHICLES??!! C'MON, EDMUNDS, WHAT GIVES???
Based on what I have found there can be no question that the manufacturers are using the lockup aspect of the torque converter to extend the fuel economy and thereby very likely reduce overall emissions.
Historically the torque converter has been used as a "clutch" to prevent the engine from stalling with the transmission engaged. It is also used as a torque multiplier, as high as a factor of 2, when accelerating.
While the torque converter is quite helpful in that multiplication mode it also results in the loss of about 10% of the fuel economy in acceleration mode and even a greater percentage loss when you're just cruising along.
So, according to the papers and documents some manufacturers are locking up the torque converter in all gears, even in 1st.
Obviously the torque converter cannot be locked up if wheel speed and selected gear ratio is such that the engine might stall.
So, you're in that merge lane, you slack off the gas slightly (throttle NOT fully closed) waiting for an "opening", the system says "ah-ha, we're cruising" and slips the transaxle into a cruise gear ratio and the torque converter into lock-up.
Now you suddenly ask for acceleration and the lockup must be released (has feedback "loop" closure indicated the previous upshift and lockup "completion"?) and the transaxle must be downshifted into the appropriate gear.
Unless Lexus has added another sensor in order to "know" the lockup sequence has completed the engine RPM and the torque converter turbine speed must be equal.
The problem, as I see it, is that these inputs can also be "equal" at times, strictly by happenstance, with the lockup disabled.
So, you re-apply that gas pedal to accelerate, the engine is "dead" as programmed during a gearshift or lock/unlock sequence, and in this case remains DEAD because the engine RPM and the turbine sensor speed are the same just because of happenstance.
Until these two speeds diverge there is no way for the controlling ECU to "know" the "unlock is complete.
Just another guess.
But.
If the torque converter lockup could be used full time then the fuel economy and emissions rating between manual and automatic transmissions would be eliminated.
But being able to use the torque multiplication and/or the lockup "at will" might just result in better fuel economy and emissions ratings than a manual transmission.
In any case it appears that Toyota and Lexus have come a LONG way down the "lockup" road and it's likely there's is not going back absent paying HUGE CAFE and/or CARB penalties.
I do hate to hear that people are being forced to throw in the towel on this, especially since I feel that there is a significant safety issue associated with the problem.
Something happened to me I'd like to share. A member of the "other" forum said this could help and I'm backing him up.
Recently, I killed the battery in my Sienna (my fault) and everything was drained. In doing so, I think the Car's ECU was completely erased. The car was jump started and everything was fine.
Now, beginning, my throttle was mush. You press the first area of the pedal = nothing. Now, after the battery was drained and everything reset, I can now tap the pedal ever so slightly and the engine responds immediately. I don't need to press it down more for it to start but now just tapping it makes it move.
This happened out of an accident and the hesitation was not much of a problem but now the throttle feel is fantastic. I feel like I can manage it now.
The other member didn't drain the battery but disconnected it via negative terminal and let it like that for about 5 mins (I was stuck with no battery for about an hour). He then reconnected it and started the car but strongly noted that you don't touch the throttle at all. DO NOT TOUCH IT WHILE YOU START THE CAR.
Go for a regular drive. See if everything is better. Curiously enough, like I mentioned, my throttle is very responsive and not dead like before.
And I'd like to note that the tranny itself is perfectly fine. It's the poorly done throttle causing a problem.
: Obviously, there are a heck of a lot more people who have a lot more severe problems. The owner with the RX330 reving up to 6000RPM? That's crazy. I haven't even been passed 4500 RPM and that was with the rather aggressive Laser Cruise Control. And I've read that some Lexus have a 2 second hesitation. That's really long and you should not drive the car.
What's more depressing is the lack of attention from Toyota. Personally, I don't see this as a problem for me since mine is very very minor.
But as for now, you may want to try this.
Took my RX into a different dealership today. I discussed all my problems with the shop foreman, a very gracious guy...who also owned an RX he was very dissatisfied with.
This is what he SAID, but did not write. In fact, I was given no written record of my visit, as I have a follow up visit arranged.
His words, albeit paraphrased: 1) All and front wheel drive Lexus vehicles with a 5spd tranny have large gears, and take longer to shift. 2) Because I share my car, it has learned the other driver's habits, and now drives like crap for me. 3) When the accelerator is depressed, the throttle closes, preventing mass amounts of fuel from dumping into the combustion chamber. The reason, to meet EPA standards. Ah ha! So it is true.
Continued in next post below...
But when a driver presses on the accelerator, it's because they want to accelerate. But the RX does the exact opposite. Well son of a B. That is counterintuitive to any other vehicle I've ever driven. He truly felt my pain, and so we did a road test. He asked if he could drive, I let him.
Not only did the car hesitate, but it did the 6K RPM jump between 20-30mph. So this is the SECOND shop foreman to road test my car with me and experience the problems. He said he had to tell me the spiel about how the car is operating normally as designed. But since he owned/owns one, he himself is very dissatisfied with the car.
But what are the options? I suggested the TSIB for the ES300/330. From what I've read, it's a flash that improves that car's tranny in high altitude driving and may help the RX. He offered to read up on it and see if it would help me.
He also said that the NHTSA just got done working with Lexus on the tranny hesitation, and they've deemed it ...not a danger... So what this means is that Lexus now has firepower against all of us who are feeling the pain of tranny hesitation.
But during my visit, and he agreed, that it is a danger for me based on at least 2 criteria. 1) is that the vehicle is unpridactable, not accelerating when needed, so when I'm trying to get onto the freeway, and there's no power, and here comes a semi..exactly ..and. Thank goodness no one's been hurt. 2) That it's a distraction, because the driver must now constantly calculate extra time for acceleration, waiting to merge into traffic because the driver is unsure if the car will go this time or not, and re: the high RPMs, the calculation of distance between vehicles during city driving, so that the car won't lurch forward and hit another car.
So here's the thing. I've now road tested the car with 2 shop foremen who think the RX is a piece of junk. I've also road tested with a factory rep from Lexus corporate who thinks it's fine. Instead of the NHSTA working with Lexus corporate to investigate the problem, what about these shop foremen who hear it on a daily basis, and are experts, and know exactly why this is happening, but are prohibited from documenting it? And what about all the consumers?
What I have found from this experience is that most of the internet message boards on all the vehicles are true. Believe them as much as you want, and take heed.
This is a luxury car, and face it, the people who own them have worked their butts off to get them, and have clout. But my clout is in a different industry. So please, is there anyone out there in the auto industry that can make some calls and help us? (all due respect to the tech people who post on this). Because we're going around in circles.
Perhaps making a low budget commercial for cable TV on the issue could do it, but libel may play a part. I'll have to investigate. Also, this is time I don't have right now.
Anyway, this is not over, as I am going back to try this TSIB flash. But they may not be allowed to do it. So then the next step...whatever it may be. And options? Are there any?
Also, I have not been able to find NHTSA info. about resolving the case with Lexus. But I did find this link related to the post-gazette articles if anyone is curious.
http://automobilejournal.com/content/view/83/
remember, I have NO personal experience except that which I have related regarding my 2001 AWD RX300.
But my guess is that the "key" to this whole thing is our/your specific "treatment" of the gas pedal.
You accelerate up to 35MPH in the acceleration lane and then you ease off the gas pedal waiting for, or to "match up" with an opening in the traffic flow. If you only ease off, still maintain even a small throttle opening, light pressure on the gas pedal, the system is very likely to switch to "cruise" mode, and engage the torque converter lockup clutch.
If, on the other hand, you lift off the gas completely the system will obviously assume a coastdown circumstance and keep the lockup disabled.
This theory also lends credence to the left foot braking having some unknown effect that leads left foot brakers to encounter the hesiation symptom more often. I would suspect that when one uses the left foot for braking the right foot may very well "rest" on the gas pedal just lightly enough to keep the throttle slightly open.
But back to the original slight pedal pressure theory.
You slacked off the gas and the system locked up the torque converter for low torque engine cruise fuel economy.
Now you suddenly want some serious acceleration from this beast, not WOT throttle, but an acceleration level that will let you merge safely into that "slot".
The secondary purpose of the design of the torque converter is to provide torque multiplication for just this scenerio. Of course you want the torque converter in "play", as does Toyota and Lexus because even with its 10% power loss it provides enough extra torque, 2 times that which is input, that the fuel economy net is a gain.
But how do we get that lock up clutch to release quickly?
Not only do we wish to use the torque multiplication capability in this instance, but because the lock-up clutch is not designed for high torque applications, it MUST be out of the loop before we allow the engine to build torque.
So the ECU releases the power to the lockup clutch control solenoid and that releases, in turn, the hydraulic pressure that was holding the clutch engaged.
But since the lockup clutch cannot long survive if it is engaged during high engine torque operations the ECU must be certain of lockup release before advancing the throttle servomotor, opening the throttle in response to the gas pedal position.
And if the feedback sensors in the newer models are the same as my 2001 the only method through which the ECU can tell that the lockup clutch has been successfully released is by comparing the torque converter input speed (engine RPM) and the torque converter output speed via its turbine speed sensor.
If these two speeds are not equal then the lockup clutch CANNOT be engaged.
But what if, strictly by happenstance, the lockup clutch is actually released but there is no torque converter input/output speed difference due to roadspeed and the particular gear ratio currently selected?
The engine is slightly above idle, say 1200 RPM, at ~30mph what gear would need to be selected to closely match the engine RPM?
If I were the programmer trying to solve the above problem I would likely add in a timer of enough period to assure that in 99.99% of circumstances the lockup clutch had enough time ( 1 second? 2 seconds?) to fully release before allowing the throttle to open.
The above theory also explains why my 2001 has burned fluid at 38k miles...
The lockup clutch is NOT fully released when the mechanically coupled throttle opens suddenly in exactly the same circumstance as above.
That article has this:
>>
Officials at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration say that the number of complaints flowing into the Post-Gazette has prompted them to determine if a full investigation of the problems is warranted. In the meantime, they encourage consumers with the problem to contact the agency’s hotline at 1-888-327-4236.
>>
I guess if I had the problem, I'd contact the hotline.
Excellent posts by the way.
You can PREVENT the hesitation symptom by fully releasing the gas pedal during coastdown!
The lockup clutch is disabled, cancelled, if the throttle position is at IDL ( idle) or brakes are applied.
See page 14 of:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h16.pdf
Document reprinted by permission of Toyota.
And to everyone else, user777 had a good suggestion. Call the NHTSA hotline to describe your experiences: 1-888-327-4236
Just now had a good conversation with a third party automatic transmission technician.
He said that earlier lock-up clutches did tend to fail prematurely (the one in my 2001 RX300??) due to the inability of the controlling ECU to have close enough control to prevent clutch slippage on engagement and in some cases even while engaged. According to him the industry has recently changed the clutch design to a carbon fiber frictional surface. Apparently carbon fiber is a lot more tolerant of the high level of slippage incurred in ECU controlled transmissions.
He also stated that if the lockup clutch is engaged it will be disengaged for each shifting sequence and then re-engaged once the shift sequence is complete.
Don't know if any of this applies to the hesitation issue but I have never found more information to be detrimental.
That new BMW X3 w/manual transmission is looking more and more attractive every day.
My paperwork states that it was my request.
My RX is currently at the dealership, and I have a loaner RX. I will report the reults.
It is worth saying for a laugh that I have put nearly as many miles on the loaner cars as my own because of this problem. Crazy.
Anyway, I have not been able to find this TSIB online, but I have a copy of the 5 page document, and will be, eh hem, willing to type it up if no one can find it online. I'll ask the dealership tomorrow for a URL. In the meantime, if anyone wants any specific info. off the document, make a post and I'll respond.
Please excuse the following dumb question/thought but it just popped into my head and I wanted to throw it out for thought/dismissal.
Q: As gearless transmissions continue to evolve and become more mainstream would this type of transmission resolve/eliminate any hesitation?
Best regards,
Philip
All of the clutches, including the lockup clutch, are actuated by hydraulic pressure via the pump driven with a cam on the input shaft.
Suppose that the unusual shifting sequence, QUICK sequence, exhausts the hydraulic pressure just enough that the NEW shift sequence cannot occur absent a few turns of the engine to "rebuild" hydraulic pressure?
You're in the acceleration lane, low gear engaged appropriate to acceleration, Lockup disengaged to take advantage of the torque multiplication. Now you get slightly off the gas and briefly enter "cruise" mode. The engine RPM declines to idle, the tranmission upshifts into the most appropriate gear and the lockup clutch is engaged. But now you lift the gas pedal completely and apply the brakes and the lockup clutch must be disengaged.
And NOW...you apply the gas sharply because you wish to accelerate.
Ooops!
Hydraulic pressure was exhausted during your previous efforts and now it will take many turns of the engine, input shaft hydraulic pump cam, to build enough pressure to be certain of the newly required downshift sequence.
When Toyota and Lexus decided to use the lockup clutch in the same manner a person would use a REAL clutch did the engineers consider the extra duty, capacity, this would require of the transaxle's hydraulic pump.
Besides, I'm enjoying being retired....a KEPT man.
Disagree on nixing Lexus' QA standards.
Agree they are universally recognized as industry benchmark.
Agree hesitation isn't a safety issue.
Agree a similar hesitation issue exists in other makes.
Disagree the issue is a major problem.
Life threatening, safety issue???
Willing to try that takeoff, same conditions, again without determining, knowing, and fixing the cause of the engine sputter??
NOT!
Comparison is irrelevant & not consistent with discussion.
Autos and Aircraft are mutually exclusive.
IMO subject hesitation issue isn't a safety hazard.
NHTSA agrees.
Rented 05 Suzuki SUV 4WD last week in Key West. Same hesitation as described here. Normal driving--not noticeable. Full throttle at low speeds--very noticeable.
Moral?
Drive sensibly and avoid worries.
>>
IMO subject hesitation issue isn't a safety hazard.
NHTSA agrees.
>>
1st sentence: exactly - "in your opinion". pilot130 cannot provide anything but an opinion, just like most of the rest of us.
2nd sentence: so we are to believe pilot130 works for the NHTSA, toyota or otherwise has some inside line (pun intended) which noone else here does.
it would be nice if pilot130 could provide details - many posts back, pilot130 was invited to provide objective details (from the transmission friend)... pilot130 preferred not to, citing some reason.
On the other hand the Toyota V6 "hesitates", putting your life in jeopardy, heart in throat until the engine accelerates.
Pilot, you're absolutely correct, a hesitating P210 engine is in no way a comparison to a Toyota engine hesitating.
The Toyota is already safely on the ground.
If your own car does not have a serious hesitation problem, then I do not believe you are qualified to comment on:
a) whether or not it is a safety issue,
or
b) whether or not it is a major problem. It may not be a COMMON problem or affect you personally, but if my brand new, supposedly state-of-the-art car has a 2 second hesitation (and numerous other related problems which Toyota can't/won't fix), then IT IS A MAJOR PROBLEM TO ME! Hundreds of other people on this and other boards agree that it is a major problem to them. So please don't insult us by telling us that our unacceptable cars are ok, when you haven't driven them.
The fact that other makes are also having transmission hesitation problems does not make it acceptable. If we all just sit back and accept this ridiculous trend of deterioration in driveability and safety, as you seem happy to do, then we'll soon be better off in a horse and cart.
And finally, the advice to "drive carefully and avoid worries" to circumvent tranny hesitation is again, insulting and fatuous, in my opinion. I HAVE had to change my driving to accommodate the lack of responsiveness in my Toyota, to the extent where I'm now getting abused by others for not turning quickly enough etc. Please explain why a car which had a 2 second delay in braking or steering would unquestionably be regarded as dangerous, but a 2 second delay in accelerating is perfectly ok. How can you NOT accept that accelerating (quickly and predictably) is sometimes the best or maybe even the only way of avoiding a dangerous situation??? Sorry Pilot, but I'm not yet capable of controlling the behaviour of other people on the road. Please tell us all how you do it.
Unless I'm mistaken, I recall that you have previously stated that you are not in the employ of Toyota or Lexus. Are there any other connections that you should perhaps disclose??
I could only find the following on their website:
1. scores of complaints about hesitating trannies from Toyota and Lexus drivers
2. In the Q&A section, one example of a safety defect is stated as "Accelerator controls that break or stick".
Hmmmm. Sounds like a defect to me.
That being said, I stated mine.
For the record:
IMO, this hesitation issue isn't a safety issue.
Furthermore, I don't believe it's much of an issue at all.
Why?
IMO, this discussion (mainly the same four or five individuals) is an interesting one, but isn't indicative of a serious or widespread issue, nor has it identified any unsafe condition.
Lastly, we are reminded that personal comments such as others being insulting (irresponsible), sarcasm re their qualifications (irrelevant), inferences re their loyalties/affiliations (irrational), and other similar remarks, aren't germaine to the issue.
Furthermore, soliciting others to follow that doctrine is equally bizarre.
One who follows that doctrine could just as easily label posts such as No. 342 "insulting" as well.
I choose not to suppress another's right to express opinions, for obvious reasons.
I've stated mine; I stand by them; I have not yet seen or heard any factual/credible evidence to dispute them; and I owe no apologies for expressing them accordingly.
In a game of dodgeball, you are allowed to react instantly to my throw and move aside; I, however, must wait 2-4 seconds before I'm allowed to move.
Which one of us is in greater danger of having a ball smack us in the face?
However, my opinions haven't changed.
Nothing so far has shown the hesitation issue to be serious, widespread, nor a hazardous situation.
Furthermore, the few random appearances being reported suggest it isn't design related.
At a minimum, this situation remains interesting to follow.
A pleasant day to you.
But I did notice it on a 2003 and 2004 I test drove and passed on buying.
I know it's a problem affecting numerous people because I have read just about every internet related complaint.
I think it's a safety issue and unacceptable in a Lexus or any other car. It needs to be fixed.
I do have inconsistent jerk/surge movements when driving 1-5 mph and that infuriates me but compared to what others go through, I consider myself lucky.
I bought a Lexus cause I thought it was a benchmark for excellence. Two second delays aren't a minor issue.
I thought I had read of others having the arbitrator actually ride in the car. Was that an option for you?
Since the 5 speed auto seems to be the common denominator, I question the comments of anyone driving a 2003 or earlier HL as a self proclaimed expert.
Owner of 2004 HL Limited AWD Nav with the slushiest tranny I have ever owned.