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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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The manufacturer's arbitration witness/expert will always be given more respect and credibility.
2005 Toyota LE
I am now seriously thinking about arbitration. So far, the TSIB that was done on my RX hasn't improved anything, although I was told to give it 2 weeks. What a joke. 2 weeks?
Anyway, dia2, I await the results of your arbitration.
It's a well known fact many Lawyers are openly critical of the arbitration process--for the same self serving reasons.
For those who choose to stereotype Arbitrators (and Traffic Court Judges too) as biased either in favor of Manufacturers or Traffic Cop testimony, I strongly disagree.
Those who feel that way have very likely been the authors of their own misfortunes at some point, IMO.
If they came out on the losing end in Arbitration or Traffic Court, 99.99999% of the time it was a fair and just result.
Advice to anyone who wishes to levy criticism at our Justice System, I suggest they direct their attention toward Tort Litigators.
Sue to live, and live to sue!!
I submit THAT'S a system that warrants their critical attention.
PSSST: I have a prediction re Dia2's arbitration.
Wanna hear it?
Scoti, I'm curious as to why you asked, in light of the fact you previously made very clear:(a)Opposing opinions like mine are insulting to you, and (b)You openly advocated others to suppress them.
Moreover, as an Arbitrator, I really haven't seen any probitive evidence so far in this discussion to support the position that hesitation is widespread, serious, or safety related.
Even under the relaxed rules of jurusprudence allowed in Arbitration Hearings, a strong and convincing case has yet to be seen here, IMO.
That doesn't mean there might, or might not be a problem, nor does it mean discussion shouldn't continue.
I will say this though:
Perhaps if you and others like you, desire to see your aspirations and hoped for results come to pass, you should be more tolerant of opinions like mine.
When I sold my businesses and retired 11 years ago, I was still relatively young and looking for other things to do.
Along with several other interesting things I got involved in, this opportunity came along and I opted to do it on a part time basis.
actually in two prior posts, I suggested an experiment to help people qualitatively characterize their hesitation, and then I suggested a means to quantitatively capture it using the onboard computer interface so it could be presented during a preceeding, presuming that would be allowable.
Strictly from a Human Factors/Human Performance perspective, a discipline probably under-represented in automotive inquiries (unlike in your domain of aviation when reviewing DFDR information), I'm fairly confident, any amount of automotive hesitation would be deemed a contributor to reduced safety...
Re your experiment--quite a while back I made a similar proposal to try and somehow quantify and factualize the issue.
It was quickly dismissed as a ploy to discredit reports by some. Never got going.
My opinion on Automotive Safety ( And Aviation Safety)--the safest automobiles are those which never leave the garage. (And those airplanes which never leave the ground!)
i think the problem is, these suggestions to capture data are effort intensive and potentially costly for an owner. i don't think anyone was assuming it was a ploy by you to discredit, but i'd have to go back and read the thread.
gee - maybe i'm to blame here.
however, being an engineer (a controls engineer at that), i'd be inclined to foot the bill for the equipment to capture the hesitation on my laptop (assuming the variables are all there - i'm no ODB-II junkie, but this problem if i had it would be approached from that angle...i'd research with the manufacturers of these scanners to see if it could collect what i needed: throttle pos, speed, accelerator demand, gear, etc). so much for the objective automotive data.
for objective Human Factors / Performance data to support my claim during arbitration, there's plenty of research out there...i think it's a matter of identifying the proper research, and maybe the domain-relevant research if it exists... while there's much for the aviation domain - i'm not sure how much for the automobile domain exists.
seems like this might be a good field for a recent PHD graduate student to go into.
everything from control system response in automobiles to automotive interior design, control layout / ergonomics, etc.
However the value of these forums isn't in an Arbitration or a Courtroom, and aren't intended to be. Comments and opinions in them hold no probative value or evidentiary weight regardless, but discussions are interesting and often informative.
Keep up your efforts in bringing objectivity into this discussion. I applaud that approach.
I must say I have serious doubts about the arbitration--based on what's presented here so far, the outcome may be disappointing; furthermore I have a nagging hunch it's no more than wishful thinking and we may be asked to believe otherwise.
I intend continue to look in here from time to time and see if anything has changed--mainly from curiosity because my Wife's HL hasn't hesitated and several others in town I know of haven't either-- and besides--when someone advocates contradictory opinions be suppressed, I become VERY interested in knowing why.
A question?
Given that:
a. Toyota admits they have a problem.
b. at this time they cant fix it.
c. I am not willing to continue to operate this vehicle with this problem.
How much of this $5,000.00 loss, if any, should Toyota be responsible for?
(sorry about my spelling earlier)
Any response to such a question in the absence of any facts would be irresponsible--by anyone.
Heed some sincere advice; Don't try your case in public.
And whatever else you do, don't borrow trouble.
Re your query about wishful thinking; I think you know what I'm saying. Just leave it at that.
Then why should judges be considered and exception?
Which of us, put into the audience of a courtroom, wouldn't give more credence to a law officer's sworn testimony, typically, rather that John Q Public's (maybe three court appearnces in a lifetime??) sworn testimony.
If anyone is being stereotyped here it would be the law officer.
Arbitrator...stereotyping...??
Again, with any of you as simply an innocent bystander, more credence to the manufacturer's "experts", or John Q Public trying to prove something is wrong with a SINGLE vehicle?
No, not stereotyping but:
FACTS OF LIFE!
A better word might have been "Characterized".
After second thought it's probably more appropriate.
PS: A competent Judge (or Arbitrator) will seek only facts and truth germaine to the issue.
Who you are/delivery skills shouldn't make any difference.
Exactly! So quit treating this like it is a courtroom!
I really don't want to get involved in arguing personalities or who is insulting who and so on so I will refrain from responding to your accusations. The discussion here seems, from time to time, to digress to personality issues rather than the problem at hand.
******************
Editting: I wrote the above before I read your reply above, dla! Well, if you weren't expecting a reply, you got a few anyway. ;-)
I would also like to know when/how you feel I've brought personalities into the discussion. I don't recall doing that either.
You did publicly condemn/criticize my opinions as "insulting" in stating that hesitation isn't a serious, widespread, nor safety related issue, did you not?
You did publicly state that what I might say should be ignored/supressed, did you not?
I did respond in a straightforward manner to questions about Arbitration proceedings and related criteria (yours included), did I not?
So if I did use "courtroom" jargon, it's because I was asked about it.
And in doing so responded to all other questions asked of me (yours included)--forthrightly and honestly, did I not?
So what's the problem now?
And then you say that I'm out of line?
What in the world is wrong with stating that an answer to the dilemma might be "drive sensibly?"
Now I'm really wondering what the problem is.
Please explain. I'm trying to understand.
You say "I've just been responding honestly and sincerely to others" when you clearly question the truthfulness of others. I have been holding out on this question. Could you be fair and unbiased if you where called to arbitrate a hesitation case after your participation here. in your line of work it sounds like that could happen. you could have been my arbitrator.
If I was your arbitrator, and based on what you've disclosed to date, unfortunately you would not have been happy with my decision.
There was one comment I did like, though...that there is no such thing as a "safe" car. I agree 100% with that. Some cars are just less dangerous than others.
Better late than never.
It was an example of multiple usernames from a single source.
Glad you agree with the safest vehicle/airplane is the one which never leaves the garage/hangar.
Cheers. I'm Gone.
Incidentally, I have just had 2 senior technical guys from Toyota agree that my car is "unacceptable", with all that this entails. More soon, I hope.
I also had 2 technical people, 2 different shop foremen at 2 different dealerships in my case, tell me my RX330 was unacceptable. The second said that the RX330 is a "piece of crap" and Toyota got it wrong on this one. No kidding...that's the quote.
But they are NOT allowed to write any of this information on my service paperwork. I was contacted by the last dealership to find out my satisfaction of my appointment, and I said not satisfied. Their head customer service rep (at the dealership) will be contacting me Friday re: the TSIB not resolving my issues.
Also, I have requested NHTSA paperwork in the mail to file with them re: Lexus RX330 tranny problems.
Also, if you read my past posts, I have already documented on this board that a Lexus shop foreman told me why my/all Lexus RX330 transmissions are functioning unacceptably.
Please, no one give up. This message board is one of the few things that gives me hope this will be resolved.
How do you know/how did you contact the 2 senior Toyota technical guys? Did they put anything in writing?
Lots of letters, a few contacts, plus my dealer. Nothing in writing yet. I expect the written response will be more guarded, but to their credit, they did appear very keen to resolve the issue to my satisfaction. We'll see what transpires.
Shifty the Host
http://www.autosafety.org/lemonlaws.php
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/results.cfm
There is 33 filed complaints. Also, 10080875 lists an accident associated with hesitation.
One more thing. For those who think the problem is not widespread, get an RX330 loaner from a dealer if you can, demand responsiveness from the gas pedal from 20-30mph, and by the end of the day if not before, you will be getting the hesitation. I have now had 3 loaner RX330s plus my own that all have the hesitation and overrevving problem.
Again, NHTSA Probes Sudden Acceleration.
I think you should at least send him a reply stating that you received the receipt and it is in error because he did not hook your car up to a machine and because,in your case, he acknowledged to you that there was a problem. Request that he provide the correct receipt to you.
You could also try another dealership if there is one nearby.
Leaving them as is conveys a completely misleading impression, and doesn't really relate to the topic of this board.
Was that your intention?
It specifically mentions (among many other non Toyota related discussions) "sudden accelleration" on 2002/03 Camry, Solara, and Lexus ES300.
It refers to accelleration without throttle application, ie , cars which run into other cars, houses, and in one case, a pedestrian.
It states that NHTSA conducted a preliminary investigation into the issue.
If you follow up on that preliminary investigation done by the NHTSA last March, you will learn there were no defects found in those models, and the investigation was closed.
The cause was determined to be unintended application of throttle by drivers.
No further action was warranted.
I was just waiting for the brinksmanship to be done with.
To find the summary on that preliminary investigation last year, go to the NHTSA site, click on the header that includes "Investigations", then search 2002 or 2003 Lexus ES300 results for "sudden accelleration--speed control".
You should have no trouble finding it--there are actually two summaries, and the second one provides more detail.
The report summary indicates the problem was determined to be accidental/unintentional throttle application by the driver.
The Autosafety.org article talks about that phenomenon as well--in other makes where the same thing was reported.
It is a fairly common occurrence apparently.
I had it happen twice in the Suzuki SUV I rented in Key West last week.
Feet getting too big perhaps?
I thought the subject being discussed was engine hesitation, lag, or delay. Did someone bring up something about sudden acceleration?