Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)

scoti1 · February 2005

You won't be the first through arbitration on this issue. It may be helpful to confer with others who have gone before you. Here is a post from the Highlander Problems and Solutions board regarding an unsuccessful arbitration attempt.

#2014 of 2357 Re: Another complaint option [hmurphy] by leighanne4 Nov 18, 2004 (11:33 pm)

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Thank you so much for this new address. I have just filed a complaint at autosafety.org. I have completed the arbitration process and was denied because 'Toyota should repair under warranty'. I will pursue this until all options are exhausted including lemon laws and class action lawsuits. If anyone is going to go the arbitration process please use all avenues available and this should include having an independent mechanic verify the problem and have it notarized for presentation to the arbitrator.

There are several other things which I wasn't aware of until after the fact but documentation and spend as long as it takes in the 'drive test'

to make sure the arbitrator has a full knowledge of what this car is doing. They will assume it is hesitating from stop to start rather than cutting out in the 20 to 30 mph range. In other words ....Be Specific and use the time to your benefit.

wbay · February 2005

Thank you all for responding. I feel better about sending in the paperwork now. The trouble is, how to document something that leaves no physical evidence?

Pilot130: No arbitrations involving hesitation? It seems to me that I've read about a few in the other forums. Maybe that means there IS a measure of privacy that wouldn't be afforded in an actual court case.

scoti1 · February 2005

Don't forget to check the Lexus' boards on this too. This is from the Transmission Problem in Lexus ES300 discussion.

#596 of 673 Re: Arbitration [jragosta1] by jragosta1 Oct 13, 2004 (8:22 pm)

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Got my response today on arbitration. The arbitrators unanimously decided that I had not proved that the transmission problem significantly impaired the usefulness or safety of the car.



Given that the Lexus person admitted that they didn't have any specifications and that their 'the car meets design criteria' REALLY meant that 'all of the ES cars do that', I don't think the hearing could have gone any better.



I guess they were swayed by the fact that there have been no accidents reported.



I don't have the time to get a lawyer, but if anyone is starting a class action, I'll join in.

pilot130 · February 2005

I cannot dispute there are posts in these forums claiming to have been to arbitration on the hesitation issue(and many other issues also).

I can, however, confirm that there is absolutely nothing on Case Law record on that topic anywhere.

The database I am subscribed to is totally comprehensive, and is used by more than 75% of all Law Firms/Tribunals/etc., in North America.

I have never heard where it has omitted/not recorded hearing results from any Court, Tribunal, or Arbitration.

The kind of evidence you should have DLA2, would be: Sworn (direct or deposed) testimony by witness observations of the condition (when, under what circumstances,how often, how severe); Certified true copies of service reports/receipts where you have requested diagnostics and have not had results; Independent diagnostic reports (certified true copies of course); Certified copies of other people's reported experiences of the same condition; Toyota's public acknowledgement of the problem, and so on. If you have originals of any documentation, you don't need to produce true copies, but in many instances invoices given you will be copies of originals.

Hope this helps.

scoti1 · February 2005

The more I think about it, the more it upsets me. The post I copied from jragosta1 above states he thinks he lost because "there have been no accidents reported". So, do you have to prove someone has been in an accident to get something deemed a safety issue? Isn't it enough to almost get rear-ended or side-swiped? Wouldn't it be better to resolve the problem BEFORE an accident occurs (based on the reports I have read, I would be surprised if there haven't been any accidents due to this problem, they just may not have been reported as being due to an engine hesitation!)

wbay and dla2, I admit that I don't know much about how arbitration works or what it takes to be successful, but the experience of others points to having as much documentation as possible. You may want to contact some people who have reported the same problem The Center for Autosafety at http://www.autosafety.org may be a good resource because it lists contact information. A signed letter or affadavit describing a problem similar to yours may be helpful. I don't think it could hurt, anyway.

dla2 · February 2005

My arbitration is going to the National Center for Dispute Settlement in Dallas as Toyota requires.

I dont know why previous arbitrations are not showing up anywhere. Maybe thats a good thing.

pilot130 · February 2005

Reason why posted claims of arbitration cases don't show up on Case Law databases?

All I can suggest to you DLA2 is that it's highly likely it never happened.

Moral of that story is "Don't believe everything seen on the internet!"

Just keep in mind that whatever evidence you choose to support your case at Arbitration should be corroborated--true copies of documentation, expert testimony, direct or deposed witness testimony, and so on. Anything else is hearsay or opinion. Hearsay is admissible in Administrative Tribunals to a degree, but won't carry much weight if there's no corroboration to back it up.

scoti1 · February 2005

http://myfloridalegal.com/apr_jun04.PDF

xxxxx v. Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., 2004-0149/FTM (Fla. NMVAB April 15, 2004).

The Consumers complained of a pronounced, pulsing engine sensation and an engine surge. The Manufacturer contended that the pulsing sensation was normal and did not constitute a nonconformity. The Manufacturers witness testified that the pulsing sensation was caused by the normal operation of the vehicles exhaust gas re-circulation valve. The operation of the valve could not be altered without violating the federal emissions standards. In finding the problem to be a nonconformity, the Board noted that the issue was not whether the Manufacturer thought the problem to be normal. The issue was whether the pulsing engine sensation and the engine surge were so pronounced and significant as to substantially impair the use and value of the vehicle. Ultimately, the Consumers were awarded a refund.

pilot130 · February 2005

Not the same condition as this board is discussing. You have to read the account of the entire Hearing. It's about a whole different situation--and it isn't a 4WD SUV either.

dla2 · February 2005

I totally agree pilot130 with the "dont believe everything on the internet" stuff. All I can say is that this information came from a source that would indicate it was likelier to have happened than not. You will just have to take my word for it.

commish1 · February 2005

I have an 05 Camry SE V6. I have 2K on the car and have brought it to the dealer 2x. They say the hesitation problem is because of the new drive by wire system. From what I understand this is also a problem in the Highlander. If you have a problem call 1-800-331-4331 Ext 3. This is the corporate office and they will "investigate" this problem. They advised me that they already have had some complaints about this. The more people that complain the better the chances of us having our cars fixed!

scoti1 · February 2005

From the Edmunds Toyota Camry forum.

#4547 of 7509 Of ECU, arbitration and TSBs. by cjts Oct 16, 2002 (3:41 am)

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On July 23rd of this year I posted a message (#3982) /direct/view/.ef071b4.ee9e769/4099 regarding my 2002 LE V6 Camry. I was asked by the Master Service Manager and the Toyota DSM to file for arbitration for repurchase of my vehicle. I had taken my car in for service due to a hesitation/jerking problem when cruising between 38 and 42 mph. I was advised that there was a communication problem between the Engine Control Unit (ECU) and the transmission that was causing the hesitation and jerking. At the time Toyota had not found a way to fix this problem. I went through the arbitration process just to find out that the Service Department and Toyota Corporation had backed out of their initial position about the problem. They admitted to the symptoms of the transmission but alleged it was the way the vehicle was designed and that it was normal to the the operation of the car. To make a long story short, the arbitrator denied my request for repurchase (the process is totally biased) concluding that the safety, operation and resale value were not affected by the condition. To my relief and pleasure, the Dealership asked me to bring in the car last week because they had a fix (to a "non-existant" problem!!) for my car. A TSB was recently issued (EG2006) for re-calibration of the ECU. They finally fixed the problem and my car finally feels like a normal car!! As it turns out, Toyota has known about this problem before September of 2001 as they had another TSB out (EG-01301) http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/TSBScans/sb625644.pdf but it did not correct the problem. The new TSB also known as EG-017-02 calls for the same procedure to correct the problem but with a different code. (re-calibrate ECM to new code --53310200).

If you own a 2002 V6 Camry, take the car in and complain about the hesitation/jerking problem. It is a real problem, Toyota knows it, but the way they handle TSBs is (as they state in the document) "Warranty application is limited to correction of a problem based upon a customer's specific complaint". I really love this car and plan on keeping it for a long time now, (after having it fixed) but having to deal with this kind of BS for the first 11,000 miles of the life of my car isn't what I expected after paying almost 25 grands!! There's so much to say about this but I'll rather keep quiet. After all, nothing I say will change anything. I hope you all get your car serviced and fixed.

dla2 · February 2005

My Toyota dealer know nothing about the above TSB

scoti1 · February 2005

Here is a report of someone who received a Lemon Law buyback of their Lexus (see Transmission Problems in Lexus ES300 forum)

#404 of 678 Extremely Surprised! by nogermancar Jan 29, 2004 (11:18 pm)

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I am extremely surprised to hear that Lexus 2003-04 ES300 or ES330 owners are still having problems with their transmissions. I bought a 2002 ES300 and felt really frustrated with the way in which Lexus dealt with the whole issue. I had some very weird experiences with the service advisors.

After one year of ownership, I got a lemon lawyer and got my money back. If you have a mechanical problem that admittedly cannot be fixed by the dealerships, and your vehicle manufacturer does not work with you, then go get your four repair attempts and your money back. Simple.

Good luck to you all. I hope your future car experiences are much more enjoyable.

scoti1 · February 2005

Try giving them the TSB number. I have had my dealer plead ignorance on TSBs until I prod them a little about it.

The fix for the Camry may not be applicable to the Highlander though. But this forum is about all models (and makes even though Toyota is dominating) so it could be helpful or could even be related.

pilot130 · February 2005

Just a couple of points of information DLA2.

You said earlier(If I recall correctly)that your ride was a 5 speed HL, not a 4 speed automatic Camry.

That referenced TSB may not apply to a 5 speed.

Same for the Lexus Scoti referenced--it was a 4 speed tranny too.

Be careful about mixing apples and oranges on TSBs.

Plus, more info about Arbitrations for you.

There are some private Arbitration Services out there who contract their services to manufacturers of all stripes and types.

These aren't public entities, and aren't subject to the much stricter rules that State and Federal Arbitrators are.

They also aren't nearly as unbiased, because of who pays for their services.

Their results don't always get into public registries either, which explains why I couldn't find any "Hesitation" arbitration results in my caselaw database.

Word to the wise.

If you want guaranteed fair and unbiased Arbitration, I would try and avoid the private ones if at all possible,because they tend to be more of a crap shoot.

Best of luck.

PS If you want to see hesitation problems with other makes, check out Volvo and Mazda for starters.

My Tranny repair shop friend says it's not an uncommon problem with most 5, and more recently 6 speed trannys with fly by wire throttle control and VSC equipped FWD or AWD systems. He says that's the way they all work, and under the right situation they can all be induced to hesitate.

Apparently most people don't notice it because they rarely if ever replicate the conditions where it occurs.

scoti1 · February 2005

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04345/424551.stm

It turns out that the five-speed automatic in the 2002 to 2004 Lexus ES300 and ES330 models also is used in the Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX330 sport utility models, two of the company's biggest sellers.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04343/423383.stm

A transmission problem in 2002 to 2004 Lexus ES300 and ES330 sedans can cause hesitation before the car accelerates in certain situations -- and create some unsettling moments for the cars' owners.

-----------

Also there is this from a Lexus owner's club forum:

"Dec 10 2003, 02:32 PM

I received a check from Lexus this morning as the result of filing a complaint under the Lemon Law statute in the state of Florida. I went before a three person arbitration panel and explained to them the hesitation problem when accelerating and Lexus' refusal to acknowledge the problem. They all road tested the vehicle and as a result, directed Lexus to buy me out of my lease and refund me all past payments minus a small sum for mileage. I never had to use an attorney and it was a very painless procedure. "

(no privately hired arbitrator here)

pilot130 · February 2005

You're very focussed on being helpful!!

Your advice appears in every Toyota board in this site.

Impressive.

dla2 · February 2005

I drive a 04 camry with a v6 5speed automatic.

I don't disagree with your statements on arbitrators, however, at this point Toyota has a process for disputes in place and I feel compelled to follow it.

My big question still is how can Toyota be working on a fix for something that is functioning normally?

dla2 · February 2005

For anyone who does not know already the V6 5speed in the camry is the same as the highlander and the lexus.

Most camrys are sold with the 4 cylinder with a 4speed auto (I think the ratio is something like 80/20) I believe this is why you dont hare as much from camry owners as you do from highlander and lexus. The 4 cyl does not seem to have as much of a problem. This is speculation on my part.

pilot130 · February 2005

There may be several answers to your one big question DLA2. (Human nature routinely seeks the "big $100" answer, but there are often as many as 10 ten dollar answers!!)

One can only guess at some possiblities.

High on the list of possibilities might be that Toyota doesn't see the issue as a problem, but rather sees it as a customer satisfaction issue.

As a consequence, what you refer to as a "fix" might be to Toyota an ongoing engineering improvement; something all automakers do whilst in production to make improvements; ie modify something in the assembly process or in a component; to reduce costs;or because of a supplier change/component modification of some sort; or to address a customer dissatisfaction issue.

I can tell you that my friend who has the Tranny Repair shops doesn't see it as a problem, but as an operating characteristic of 5 and 6 speed trannys on specific vehicles across the board, not just Toyota.

Then again, he may be like the Heart Surgeon who considers transplants routine!! Fine for him but what about the patient?

commish1 · February 2005

Are there any TSB's out for the 05 Camry.

scoti1 · February 2005

I checked the NHTSA.gov website.

According to the Office of Defect Investigations of the NHTSA there is one transmission TSB for the '05 Camry. It is for a loose lever on the manual transmission (TSB# 00704 dated October 15, 2004). There is also one for the 04 Camry transmission that addresses a vibration on upshift (TSB# 00604 dated September 13, 2004).

Nothing regarding hesitation upon acceleration.

user777 · February 2005

pilot130, you're guessing now... instead of relying on facts... you're speculating.

welcome.

i sense perhaps, you're slowly moderating your position?

is it perhaps the existence of an ECU-related TSB that you find non refutable?

it doesn't really matter what your friend at the tranny shop thinks or how he/she "sees it", nor for that matter that Toyota might classify the issue as a "customer satisfaction issue" - it's what the consumer thinks...

if the vehicle has poor performance or driving dynamics / behaviors: behaviors which may impair driver confidence, reaction times, and yes, safety in certain driving situations - it's not "routine" is it?

the "patient" (consumer) sees it as critical to quality. the surgeon (engineer) sees it as a defect.

well, maybe not every engineer...

pilot130 · February 2005

Whatever.

I try to avoid responding to subtle (but not too astute) put downs--especially in public. Brinkmanship is a waste of energy.

user777 · February 2005

i was actually complementing you for moderating your position. the engineering reference was re: Toyota, not you.

whatever.

pilot130 · February 2005

Right from the git go I have tried to be objective on this hesitation issue.

My "position" has been to try to inject a little open mindedness, consider ALL possibilities, look at FACTS as well as individual theories and opinions, seek professional knowledge, and so on. In other words, let's not just get into debating who's right and who's wrong.(Brinkmanship??)

My intentions were genuine, but results seem to have polarized some participants, judging from a couple of angry reactions. For that, I obviously erred. No excuses.

However, I am concerned about what appears to be a singular direction here, namely that it's a deliberate and intentional flaw which Toyota is covering up; that Toyota is totally wrong and should face sanctions ranging from "they must fix it, to they must buy back, to let's go class action, or we demand a full recall".

In other words, don't bother defining the problem, we know who's wrong here, just pick the most convenient solution and be done with it.

There are bound to be wide ranging positions in discussions like this, but here it points toward only one position as acceptable--if you don't agree with that trend, you're not welcome here.

What seems evident is that there are many others like me who are curious and want to peel the whole onion on the issue. They've heard about, or experienced it and genuinely want to discover more.

I don't have any problem with that at all.

At the same time it appears there are others who who just want every one to accept and not question that they're right, period. That's of some concern.

Then there are a very few who, for reasons I seriously wonder about, editorialize this issue on every Toyota Board in the entire site--constantly--in a way which goes way beyond any open minded discussion. What kind of motive is behind that?

So my attitude is the only thing that's changed.

Those who want to be "right", or bring Toyota to heel, or who have far deeper motives, can do as they wish. I'm no longer interested. It's not that important IMO.

scoti1 · February 2005

A friendly reminder from the moderator that this is about Engine (and transmission) hesitation problems and not about personalities and "motives" would be most welcomed.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2005

That's quite true, we encourage challenging "ideas" but not personalizing our comments.

All points of view are welcome. If you want to "attack" a point of view", attack the facts, not the person.

We are all here to enjoy ourselves and share information.

thank you

MrShiftright

Host

user777 · February 2005

pilot130, i thought that was a very articulate posting.

i'm interested in this particular topic because professionally in another domain, i engineer and test complex control systems, *AND* because i have some educational and professional experience with usability in the context of complex systems.

i'm interested in complex system behaviors and how they might be predicted and understood by end-users. i don't believe this problem specific to toyota vehicles, their engineers, designs or their processes. i'm aware that many components of these complex systems are designed by third-parties, and integrated by OEMs. one might expect as we see the introduction of these new technologies, issues arise affecting more than one vehicle manufacturer. anecdotal evidence posted on these forums bears that out.

what i find concerning, is the push to make our vehicles more and more complex and feature rich, in an effort to improve economy and safety. this movement and the consequences of same are something we all need to consider carefully.

if anyone goes back and reviews my postings in this forum and the Highlander P+S forum, my hope is that the postings were consistently focused on validating the reports of the posters claiming they had a problem (why doubt them?), and trying to articulate WHY it would be an unacceptable design attribute / behavior (from a human factors perspective which isn't getting a whole bunch of representation in the various forums - yet). i predict that we will see an ever increasing number of problem areas where technology presents gulfs between the designers and the end-users. we will also learn of interesting and bizzare failure modes (and consequences) which weren't predicted when the vehicles were introduced into production.

if my postings tended to coincide / follow yours, i suppose its possible that some might view it as a deliberate effort to counter your position or postings. that was not the true intent.

if you feel i've personally attacked you, or tried to imply that your position is without merit or that your opinions and any factual information you may supply for anyone's benefit is not welcome...

...i sincerely apologize.

it would be counter-productive, wasteful of bandwidth, and non-genuine.

borrert · February 2005

G'day everyone.

This is my first posting here, but I suspect it won't be my last!

I am a hugely disappointed owner of a Toyota Kluger (Highlander) 3.3L AWD, purchased new in September 2004. At the first service, I reported a bad engine miss on acceleration, rough running, 2+ seconds transmission downshift hesitation at various speeds, but most commonly at at about 3kph and 50kph, wild over-revving on some changes, surging, a "slingshot" effect when coasting (in gear) at about 50kph, and other similar issues. The complete wiring harness was replaced at the first service in response to a TSB from Toyota regarding defective harnesses in some cars built in Aug 04.

The new wiring harness fixed the engine miss and some of the roughness, but all the other problems remain to this day, despite 4 further trips to the dealer, including a drive by the regional Toyota rep. The Toyota rep appeared quite surprised by the extent of the hesitation but then gave the usual glib and insulting response that this is a "characteristic" of some Klugers and Lexus RX330s, and would not acknowledge it as a problem or defect. He then stated that Toyota (and Lexus) were trying to find a fix (to a problem that supposedly doesn't exist). Sound familiar? I then asked for a written report of his drive, to which he responded that his report would only state that the car was working within normal parameters. I wanted to scream. He also said that his report would take a while to be sent to me, as it would have to be cleared by the Toyota Legal Department. I am still waiting 2 weeks later.

I have since learned that Toyota has been trying to find a fix since at least 2002 - why do they keep selling these things?

I have driven 3 other Klugers - one 12 month old trade-in had a significant transmission delay, though nowhere near as bad as mine, and two new cars seemed ok. I don't believe it is a driving style issue. The various posts on this site stating that only aggressive drivers see the problem are simply wrong, and miss the point. I guarantee anyone driving my lemon would notice the problem. My wife now refuses to drive the thing. In any event, it shouldn't matter if you are an aggressive, normal (me, I think) or sedate driver. If you need to hit the gas, the car should respond - not in 2 seconds, but NOW! I have had 3 near misses in 5 months - I drive in moderately heavy, though fast moving traffic, and my car's hesitation problem is without doubt, a serious safety issue. Every day it is a pain with all the surging, roughness and so on. It's rather ironic that one of the main reasons I chose the thing was because of the reported smoothness of the engine and drivetrain compared to its competitors.

I have driven several other makes of car with drive-by-wire, and they have all responded instantly to a prod on the juice. It CAN be done.

I have also noted a new article dated Feb 5, in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette about a possible investigation of the issue by the NHTSA, which can be found at

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05036/453222.stm . It's important reading for any other poor sod with a lemon Toyota or Lexus.

Sadly our lemon laws here in Australia are seriously deficient. If I could sell the thing without taking a huge hit on my lease, I'd do it tomorrow, but why the hell should I pay the penalty for Toyota's incompetence and lack of customer focus? Mind you, I'm getting close, as the safety of my family is utmost in my mind.

This is my fourth Toyota. It is 90% perfect for my needs. The other 10% is so bad, and Toyota's attitude so appalling that I will never get another one.

I'm really sorry that my first posting here is so long and is such a downer. For all you guys who say that the tranny hesitation issue is no big deal, please understand that for those of us with a really bad one, it is a huge problem.

Good luck to all you other Toyota and Lexus sufferers. I hope that we eventually get some satisfaction.

Cheers.

scoti1 · February 2005

Thanks for the new Post-Gazette article link. I haven't run across that one yet. I am glad to see that the hesitation issue is on the NHTSA radar screen. Regardless of whether they choose to investigate this further, it should help in getting Toyota to take more notice and the appropriate action. This is good news.

pilot130 · February 2005

Quote from the Feb 5 news article in the Pittsburg Gazette:

"A search of NHTSA records and interviews with Consumer Reports magazine also show owners of other car makes are suffering from hesitation, including BMW's 3 Series, Ford Explorers and Escapes, and Dodge Durango 4x4.

David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in Connecticut, said the magazine's testers have encountered problems in the Audi A6 2.7T, the Audi Allroad, the Mazda6 equipped with the V-6 engine, and the Volkswagen Jetta 1.8T.

Spokespersons for those companies could not be reached for comment."

What makes the issue perplexing is that no two models of a given car brand may have the same problem. Some owners of the makes involved say they've noticed nothing, while others will say the problem is chronic."

Some good news is that at least Lexus and Toyota have responded and acknowledged that a fix is being worked on, where other automakers are apparently not talking.

On that basis, NHTSA may not target Toyota with an investigation.

commish1 · February 2005

Thanks Scoti1

borrert · February 2005

Yes, good news that they have now acknowledged the problem, but they've ostensibly been working on a fix since at least 2002. With all the resources at Toyota's disposal, they can't be trying very hard. Give me back the cable accelerator in my son's 98 Camry anyday. You push, it goes. Every time.

pilot130 · February 2005

Hey Borrert.

A Camry Down Under isn't just called "Camry".

But you should know that.

So what's the badge on your Son's 98?

G'Day Bud. By d'way, my Wife and I have a Condo up the coast a bit from Sydney. We'll be there in March and April. Our oldest Son lives there too. Works for your Navy as a Helo Pilot instructor. Where are you about?

borrert · February 2005

G'day right back at you, Pilot!

Yeah, Toyota gives their cars all sorts of dorky names here. (Like Kluger!!?? Ugghh) My son's car is a Camry Conquest V6. Middle of the range, but with all the safety gear. Good for a young bloke.

Is your son at Williamtown?

We're in northern Sydney, about 15km out of the city. Heaven on Earth.

blacksolara · February 2005

wwest very accurately captures the nature of the hesitation in my new (<2500 miles) Toyota Solara convertible.

pilot130 · February 2005

Apologies for getting off topic.(Just a short interlude--please indulge!)

Borrert, the Condo is North, up the coast at Byron Bay. Our son and his Aussie wife live there too. He's at sea just now. Left the Cdn. Military on a buyout and contracted as a consultant to Australian Navy re helicopters. Loves it there.

We'll be Au. in March. Looking forward to it.

The family ride is a Camry wagon. Indestructable car! Cheers.

wwest · February 2005

I've come to the firm conclusion that the engine lag/hesitation problem will NOT be fixed.

Back at least as far as my 2001 AWD RX300, and more likely with the advent of total electronic control of the transmissions, Toyota/Lexus decided that the vehicle's fuel economy could be extended by upshifting the transmission during coastdown, gas pedal fully released. A side benefit would be fewer accidents due to loss of control on slippery surfaces as a result of unexpected and uncontrolable engine compression braking on these (predominantly) FWD and front biased AWD vehicles.

The only possible fix would be to reprogram the transmission ECU to prevent these upshifts altogether, and were they to do that I have no doubt they would be found in violation of the CAFE rules/regulations, including all of the hundreds of thousands (millions??) of vehicles previously shipped, and then be subject to a really HUGE fine.

Wonder if they would consider a new c-best option?

Wherein owner has the option to sacrifice fuel economy in favor of safety, NO upshifting at coastdown?

But then that still wouldn't be retrofitable due to CAFE.

dla2 · February 2005

I believe that Toyota is currently working to fix the lag in future models. The complaints are to many for them to continue to produce an automobile with this problem. They will eventually come out with a new system that will reduce the hesitation.

I do not believe they will successfully retro fit or fix older models. this is why I have begun the arbitration proses.

pilot130 · February 2005

Well, I guess now that it's OK to state views on this issue, here's a partial list of mine:

The hesitation issue evidently exists for some but not for others. It's evidently not a systemic "across the board" problem affecting all Highlanders, Lexus SUVs, etc.

Evidently the condition can be induced under certain conditions involving a combination of slow speeds, decelleration, and/or full throttle accelleration. In less extreme conditions , evidently it doesn't occur or is less noticeable.

Evidently it affects only 5 and 6 speed transmissions with "fly by wire" electronic engine controls.

Evidently it applies mostly to 4WD SUV's.

Evidently those who report it experience different hesitation "intervals", ie, some momentary, others for longer, and many somewhere in between.

It evidently isn't widespread, and isn't being reported extensively everywhere. What's being reported in this site isn't a huge number BTW.

One newspaper in Cincinnati has published three articles on the issue, so evidently that paper is getting a lot of calls about it in that Area.

NHTSA has indicated they are looking into reports of the issue and depending on what is determined, they "may" open an investigation. No decision forthcoming just now.

NHTSA also makes considerable mention of reports of significant numbers of a wide variety of other makes and models which evidently have a similar condition. They too "may" be subject to an NHTSA investigation.

Some reports claim the issue is a serious safety problem. I disagree with that. I believe these claims are more emotional than logical.

Some reports say they are aware of the problem but are able to deal and live with it.

There have been a variety of theories put forth on what the possible causes are, but they are mainly speculative in nature.

Toyota/Lexus acknowledged the issue in December 04, and have committed to some kind of a fix, as yet undefined.

I reported some (not all) of what a Transmission Specialist told me, but this was scoffed at as anecdotal. I guess it is anecdotal, but this person knows what he's talking about, and I believe there is some truth to what he said.

So what do we know so far? Not much. There evidently isn't an "epidemic" of the issue; there evidently are some concerned/upset owners out there (and here); evidently nobody's been injured or killed; for sure no one has come up with a good reason or even a valid theory for the issue; and there's no "fix" yet.

That's enough for now. More later. Attack at will.

dla2 · February 2005

We are at a disadvantage in this situation being that it seems to be a problem for some but not others. It would be much better if I was the only one with the problem or everyone had it. I will say this again, I firmly believe that the hesitation can allow a driver to put his or her self into a dangerous situation that could otherwise be avoided. It does not mean it will happen it means it can happen.

I would not be surprised if it already has contributed to a crash, however, even if it has I dont think anyone will successfully put the blame on hesitation. it will always be blamed on driver error.

user777 · February 2005

exactly...when the automation is too complex to form an accurate mental model of what is actually happening, it's very convenient and overly simplistic to site "driver error" as root cause.

scoti1 · February 2005

I want to clarify my position that I now realize may have been misconstrued. I fully agree with Mr. Shiftright in his previous comments in his post #136: "telling someone his evidence is "anecdotal" isn't a slap in the puss". In this discussion, information reported by individuals has been blown off as being "anecdotal" and therefore for some reason that translates to "inadmissable" or not worthy of consideration. In some cases, it has even been implied that these people are lying. I don't agree with this "anecdotal is bad" position and I value the experience of others. This postion may have been misconstrued by my earlier comments. Someone encouraged Pilot130 to report his "factual" data from the transmission shop - I stated my opinion that information that comes from someone who heard something from someone else is an equal ranking to individual reports (i.e., also "anecdotal", not bad, necessarily, but not any more or less "factual"). I hope this clears things up.

scoti1 · February 2005

I agree, dla2. Just because there have been no **reported** accidents, it does not mean that there hasn't been any. Based on the reports I have read on the internet, including your own experience, there have been too many close calls for there to be any assurance, in my opinion, that no accidents have resulted from a hesitation problem.

pilot130 · February 2005

(1)Re: Anecdotal.

Just about everything posted at forums like this one by individuals can be categorized as "Anecdotal."

Exceptions would only be posted links from the public domain, ie, verbatim Media Quotes.

All individual posts here have no probative value in terms of reliability and relevance.

(2)Re:"Just because there have been no **reported** accidents, it does not mean that there hasn't been any".

It doesn't mean there have been any either.

Basically, it means nothing.

Comment: It shouldn't come as a surprise to see a report of an accident posted here sometime soon. BUT--it would essentially be "anecdotal."

dla2 · February 2005

Every post here could actually be by just one person creating a fictitional problem just to make for an interesting read. But I dont think so.

borrert · February 2005

Pilot130, you say you don't agree that tranny hesitation is a serious safety issue. Sorry, you are simply wrong. In most cars with only minor hesitation, safety concerns may be minimal, but in others, like my Kluger (Highlander), it is a constant but unpredictable worry.

The ability of a car to respond quickly in an emergency situation is the most fundamental aspect of primary safety. On occasions, my transmission stops stone dead for 2 seconds before it finally decides what to do and then suddenly bangs into gear at 5000rpm. I'm not talking drag racing here. This is during standard lane merging into faster traffic, turning at lights etc. Everyday stuff. At least, it should be everyday stuff. The hesitation in my car turns normally safe procedures into dangerous ones. I have therefore had to totally change my driving to allow for this, with the result that I now get abused, fingers raised, and cars screeching up my exhaust. I dread the day when I have to avoid some lunatic who turns across my path or whatever, and I have to move quickly.

The 2 second hesitation effectively TRIPLES my response time to an emergency. Other car manufacturers are touting the safety benefits of LED stoplights because they can reduce response time by tiny fractions of a second. Adding 2 whole seconds to response time can hardly be described as acceptable. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, accelerating out of a problem situation is sometimes preferable to braking.

As I said in an earlier post, I have had 3 very near misses in 5 months due to transmission hesitation. As I have not had a crash in over 25 years, 3 near misses in 5 months is simply not my style.

This is clearly not a universal problem. But it shouldn't matter whether 1, 1000 or a million cars are affected. Toyota has a responsibility to fix the problem NOW, or else replace or refund any cars with serious hesitation. We shouldn't have to wait for people to be killed.

user777 · February 2005

if a car has a hesitation problem, and eventually the vehicle slams into gear or revs high...i'd like to know what happens in this scenario:

you're stopping for a red-light or your slowing for a yield, and there's a patch of packed snow or ice. what happens to the controllability of the vehicle when it's on the packed snow or ice?

isn't one of the rules to safe driving in snowy or icey conditions to change control inputs as little as possible to maximize control and traction on slippery surfaces?

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