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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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Comments
"Transmission problems with Lexus ES-300 ?" #794, 24 Aug 2005 11:21 pm
I don't think you intended to use that story as a condemnation of all vehicles with a hesitation characteristic as "unsafe", or a "safety concern"--at least I hope you didn't.
That story is in no way a criterion to establish that everyone who experiences hesitation of one form or another has a vehicle which is inherently unsafe.
Nor does it arbitrarily suggest every vehicle with a 5 or 6 speed auto tranny(be it Toyota, Honda, etc., or any other make) which hesitates is inherently unsafe.
As we have seen repeatedly (and I thought had achieved agreeement on), there are varying degrees of hesitation and shift patterns being reported in just about every make of 5 and 6 speed tranny, ranging from barely noticeable(most common reports), to much longer (occasional reports).
Could you clarify your intention?
Thanks.
Edit to delete some of my post which echos Mr. Shiftright's comments--evidently he posted while I was in the process of doing mine.
Transaxle wear as you have experienced it--you say the oil used had a burnt smell.
What is your analysis re why that might be happening?
Reason I ask is that there may be one or two plausible causes that you overlooked.
BTW, I can speak to gearbox problems--not an expert, but lots of experience in design, assembly and operation--albeit in my younger days but the basics are still valid.
what you fail to realize is that even if a person accomodates the automation by adapting to it's behaviors, it is the low-level trained sensory/response cause and effect learning which has been re-inforced potentially over decades that is NOT SUPPORTED BY THE AUTOMATION.
this is one aspect of the safety equation. you mustn't assume that people can adapt to a bad design and remain safe when they are doing that adaptation at a high-level which completely conflicts with their lower-level learning.
the brain doesn't work that way.
it is a safety problem plain and simple.
I respect your opinion, all I ask is that you respect mine.
I think his point (at least this is what I read into it) is that if you read the description of the "dangerous" incident, you *might* have to reluctantly agree that it would have been a dangerous situation without the transmission factor entering into it at all....turning left into a double lane of traffic.
In other words, could an accident have occurred in this exact situation with any car?
ANYWAY, try not to get at each other's throats about this---you aren't going to conclusively argue the safety issue, there are too many variables in terms of road conditions and driver judgment. You'll just go 'round and 'round on it.
At least with the hesitation, you have copious anecdotal evidence...with "causing accidents", you have nothing but speculation.
I'll butt out, please continue... :P
So, I apply significant pressure to the gas pedal and the engine/transaxle ECU quickly responds by commanding a downshift, just as it clearly should. The problem is that there is insufficient hydraulic pressure/flow available "instantly" and the newly engaged clutches slip slightly until the rising engine RPM results in higher fluid pump flow and pressure.
The burned odor and appearance of the ATF results from the heating of the frictional surfaces, and thereby the ATF, as they slip and the graphite material in the bottom of the sump pan is simply the result of premature pad wear.
Given that mine is a four speed and the new, hesitation ones are five speed I wonder if the need to engage additional clutches was overlooked and the pump wasn't upgraded for more flow.
But then one must ask that if that were true why not just install a higher capacity pump in the later models? Result in too massive a recall to fix the earlier models?
I have the definite sense there might be not just a few statisticians in the background assuring Toyota that accidents resulting in injuries or deaths arising from this particular flaw will be few and far between, and the ability to provide evidence of the contributory factors of "engine hesitation" to the accident will be a practical impossibility.
Heat can result from a number of causes--friction being one of the more prominent ones.
Overfilling--excessive ATF--is another prominent cause that is commonly overlooked, and results in heat build up as well as puts a strain on rotating elements within the gearbox--plus the engine (or source of power) driving them.
Regardless, excessive and sustained heat is a killer.
Perhaps these failures you're seeing is related to something as simple as an overfilled (or underfilled--same scenario) tranny?
Then one morning my new 92 LS400 "balked". The rear wheels slipped momentarily as I accelerated across the wet plastic crosswalk stripping to enter the traffic opening, the Trac system instantly applied braking and just as instantly dethrottled the engine.
So there I sat, out in a lane of oncoming traffic with the engine NOT responding to the gas pedal until the Trac ECU had the time to "unwind" the dethrottling servo stepmotor.
You better believe that forever after that I always disengaged Trac as I started the car.
I noticed that by 2000 the Trac system in the GS300 had evolved, been modified, such that the dethrottling of the engine was delayed a few hundred milliseconds to give the driver time to react and lift the gas pedal to a more appropriate position.
Were the rear brake rotors also upgraded on GS300 so that could endure a longer period of Trac braking??
I've seen first hand, and wholeheartedly agree there probably won't ever be a common understanding of this issue, given the individuals involved--and we certainly don't represent any mainsteam "popular" opinion by any stretch.
In the meantime, I'm going to simply give my opinions, thoughts, and observations on the issue, as politely and diplomatically as possible, and simply let the chips fall where they may.
Fresh content and many people participating is the key to an enjoyable forum.
And there is an additional bit of information in that regard.
When I purchased the ATF from Bellevue Lexus I was told that it only took 4 qts and so that was what I bought and used. Several days later I checked the ATF and it yet again looked quite dark.
It turned out that there is an extra quart in the center diff'l (not the PTO) "section" of the transaxle that must be drained separately. So back to Lexus and this time purchase 5 qts.
The second time I drained both sections and drop the sump pan and clean the 1/8" of the fine (non-magnetic) graphite looking material from the bottom.
So, no, my transaxle was never over-filling and insofar as I know it must be overfilled to the level that the gears stir and "froth" the ATF before anything detrimenatl can occur.
And I'm still not convinced that the factory over-filling wasn't the result of the need to somehow help alleviate the hesitation problem. Factory bean-counters do not take kindly to putting extra ATF in millions of vehicles by happenstance.
Keep in mind that the TSB, or various versions therof, applies to this entire V6/5-speed FWD (transaxles only!) product line. So it appears that those that really count, Toyota and Lexus, believe that this is an across the board problem.
Has anyone seen or noted a complaint of this nature, "engine hesitation" resulting from delayed (1 to 2 seconds) shifting on any RWD or rear biased AWD vehicles?
xpfshost
Your experience makes me wonder if the V6/5-speed firmware was being retrofitted backwards to some of the later (e-throttle?) model year V6/4-speeds.
Did the Camry use the e-throttle before the 5-speed became available?
Maybe the combination that results in the hesitation symptom is really only FWD and e-throttle.....
Assuming my theory is correct the premature transaxle failures in the RX300 series could be "fixed" with new firmware and conversion to the e-throttle.
YES! Our (now my daughter's) 2003 Camry SE 4cyl automatic (4spd) has drive by wire..and very smooth, no hesitations.
Jeff
xpfshost
I have driven a couple of 05 Camry rental base 4 cyl cars lately, and find the transmissions to be very smooth, and seem very "normal." Between myself, my wife and my daughter, we own: 03 Camry SE 4cyl, 4 spd automatic (DBW), 03 Highlander V6 4spd automatic (NON dbw), and an 05 Highlander V6 DBW 5 spd automatic. We have not experienced the hesitation or the jerky shifting in any of these. I would not hesitate to "return to the dealerships for their (my) subsequent car purchase(s)."
I know how you feel, however, as I have owned other manufacturers products that I have sworn never to own again....yet they continue to be bought by many people each year. Even if their automatic transmissions will more than likely need to be rebuild or replaced by 60,000 or 70,000 miles.
I believe that everyone has their own comfort level. I still wish some of us who can't seem to experience this behavior in their own cars, could drive your car, and you, drive ours... PERHAPS it DOES exist in all the dbw 5spd cars by Toyota, and many just don't drive in such a way that it manifests itself with hesitation and/or jerking, or we are adjusting our driving subconsciuosly to compinsate.
However....Try as I may, I just can't get mine to hesitate..Because of this forum, I almost expected it yesterday....I was slowing (almost stopped) in a left turn lane crossing 2 opposing lanes of traffic turning into a small residential street from a 4 lane road, no traffic light....opposing traffic was very heavy, and I saw what I sensed as an opportunity to cross,...just as I made the decision, to "nail it" an opposing vehicle was approaching faster than I has estimated, and I thought "OOPS!" and thoughts of this hesitation came to mind, and I wondered...will this be IT??? NO! The car (05 Highlander) chirped the front tires, and moved briskly thru the intersection. (Traction control i assume activated,and kept the tires moving as needed.)
Some here have stated all kinds of stats, trying to confirm or deny that this is a wide spread issue, even stating that Toyota agrees it is widespread because they have produced a TSB for it. To me, all that says is that they are trying to make owners experiences better. They didn't say that all car have it, or that none have it.
A few negative experiences do not an epidemic make, nor do a few positive experiences signify that no owners experience difficulties.
What we're reading about here and in other forums are experiences of a few--very few compared to all subject vehicles in use.
Any suggestion that any others beyond these forums are experiencing anything, good, bad or indifferent, is speculation--as is any suggestion that what is being discussed is typical of everyone's experiences.
We're also reading far more "discussion" re pros and cons than any reported experiences--either way, good or bad.
Example--this forum has 1600+entries, and 1400+ of these are by less than 10 authors--exactly 6 to be precise. (I'm one of these BTW)
Some of these discussion participants don't have the 5 and 6 speed dbw systems.
The hesitation issue is very real to some, and non detectable to others, and still
others report experiences somewhere in between.
It's being reported on other makes incorporating the dbw technology, and symptoms reported range from very mild to quite severe also.
My point?
If you don't feel you have a problem, then enjoy your vehicle, whatever make it might be.
If you feel you do have a problem, you might find the content of this and other forums helpful in your quest for satisfaction, whatever that might be--and good luck while doing so.
I believe, and I've said so repeatedly, I suspect this issue relates to characteristic shift patterns for the 5 and 6 speed dbw designs.
I think the variability being reported comes as a result of a number of things, not the least of which is driving style and getting used to the "different" feel of these tranny designs.
As regards the extreme symptoms some are claiming, I have a hunch this may be related to component anomaly or outright component malfunction.
This is not indicative, in my opinion, of an epidemic/across the board "design flaw".
To suggest otherwise would be, IMO, equally speculative.
In any event, thanks for your input.
Read the TSB statements regarding the specific instances and circumstances wherein Toyota believes the hesitation symptom most often occurs.
Additionally since the I4 cannot deliver the level of torque, and certainly not as quickly, that the V6 can and will, the same fix for premature transaxle failure would not likely be required. Also keep in mind that even if the same "core" firmware is used the firmware downshift "decision tree" for the 5 speed will be substantially more complex*** than the one for a four speed.
***
-------------------------------------
"hmmm, how serious is this driver, should I shift down to 4th or 3rd?"
"Well, he seems to be a bit slow, hesitant with the gas pedal, maybe 4th will do..."
"Oops, Oh damn, he just went WOT, shift into 3rd, quickly!"
Look at when happened during the last Presidential election. The exit polls at several precincts in OH showed Kerry as the clear winner. But Bush won those precincts handily.
Goes to show.
The dealer has apologized with a written letter and offered to refund a portion of the 30K factory service cost which they recommended rather than implementing the TSB. (I had to bring the car back and refer them to the TSB....the service manger said they didn't have time to check on all the TSB's Toyota issued and that they relied on the customer's to bring them to their attention)
In regards to the "safety" issue...in my opinion, if you are apprehensive about giving the car to one of your children, or selling the car to a friend because of the hesitation problem, then it is a safety issue.
Shifty
How is it?
I for one searched out this forum because I was not happy with my HL shifting. I got some good info, but received much more negative mumbo-jumbo. I am trying to be proactive and research this issue , but find this forum to be more about legal issues, non issues, non believers, etc. I for one am tired of the constant repitition
portraying the "problems" as either non existant or not representative of the vast majority of Toyota owners.
This tranny shifts poorly, by design or accident is inconsequential. I / we, should expect / demand more of Toyota " quality " in this product .
portraying the "problems" as either non existant or not representative of the vast majority of Toyota owners.
Me too.
That's why I stopped visiting except for every couple of weeks to see if there's anything new regarding The Thing That Is Described In The TSB
Shifty the Host
That said I will sit back and occasionally look at this forum to see if TSBs are reported to do any good. I for one am very skeptical. I hope the information presented here can remain pertinent. Thanks to the Internet, Edmunds and Shifty this forum exists. Without them there would be no information exchange and we would really be in the dark.
Historically one can look at known problems wtih certain vehicles. These problems would take years to be known through the "mechanics underground" . vehicular reputations were made or broken by this method. This process has been accelerated due to forums like these, with instantaneous responses.
Our problems pale in comparison to the suffering caused by Katrina
So those of us who are happy with our cars are either too stupid to know we have a problem, or too lazy to pursue it?
Seriously though Spencer, that very thought had occurred to me as well. When I read all the comments about hesitation I thought that perhaps I may indeed have the problem and not be aware of it. I took my car out and tried to replicate the situations in which the "Foul Drive train Characteristics" might occur, with no success. I tried very hard to make my car exhibit the problem because if it had it, I wanted to jump on the bandwagon too. I may not be "astute" enough to recognize the problem, but if I had it I would darn sure pursue it. I did my best to find a problem with a car that up until now I had been very happy with. To this day I find myself acutely tuned into my drive trains performance, but I still have no complaints. Maybe I am just not very astute.
Yea! you don't have a noticeable hesitation problem. This forum helped you discover that. So luckily you can now move on to other important issues in your life.
No one, I hope, who is experiencing this problem is disparaging those that have not in any way. Disparaging the naysayers, yes, but no disparagment simply because if lack of having experienced or encountered the problem.
But I do wonder if forcing the "learned" driving style into the "highly agressive" bin might be the simplest resolution. Might that even be the TSB solution? Non-direct impact on CAFE & CARB issues.
If you have the problem then I am sure you would be aware of it.
Since you dont, I am not sure what value you get from this forum, supposedly of people that have it. Its nice to know that the problem is not universal. Maybe there is hope for all the 5 speed tranny owners that exhibit problems.
My point is that Toyota has recognized the problem by issuing a "fix"
Do we just ignore this or maybe there really is a problem.