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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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one would also think it would be the manufacturer's responsibility to reveal numerical information regarding the number of complaints, service requests, reflashes, etc to modify the system behavior.
i think it would be very helpful if one person with the issue would collect the data off the vehicle so we could all see if the system is commanding a change to the system output or not, in proportional to and in timely response to a user's change in command or system input.
i think if one has unambiguous and qualitative information regarding the delay between request and system response, it also shows the extremes to which you're willing to go to document the behavior which is otherwise being explained away by the dealer or manufacturer's representative.
this information could also be supplied to those with appropriate expertise in human factors to provide information on the impact to the operator's response to his/her control system inputs and the subsequent delay.
I have filed another complaint with Lexus's customer "service" department, and continue to get their standard stonewalling: assurances that they aim to satisfy, promises to look into the problem, promises that they will call me back, etc. And of course the phone never rings. What a joke.
I share the comments of others that it is disappointing that the major car reviewers -- even Consumer Reports! -- do not mention this transmission problem. It may not affect every ES330, but it clearly affects a lot of them, and even if it is 10% of all ES330s sold (or whatever percentage), it is clear from all of the posts on this site and many other Internet sites that it is prevalent and serious enough to warrant at least a passing mention. Even Edmunds can't be trusted to provide the unvarnished truth.
The ES330 is, of course, wonderful in many ways. The ride is comfortable, the gas mileage decent, the interior beautiful and functional. But that's not enough. Having a serious transmission problem and then stonewalling customers who bring it to their attention and demand a solution definitely isn't worthy of a car company with the tag line of "the passionate pursuit of perfection."
We may be a statistical blip and may be, to Toyota, an acceptable margin of error that doesn't make much impact on their fat profit margins, but I and many, many others will not go away.
Lexus/Toyota managers: if you are reading this, I can tell you that I am doing everything in my power to negatively affect your reputation. I tell anyone and everyone I know -- friends, family, business associates, neighbors -- about my experiences with this lousy car and my experiences with YOU. At least two people have chosen NOT to buy one of your cars based on my bad experiences with you. It is my hope and expectation that, at some point soon, you will wake up and take care of the multitude of problems you have created with this transmission.
How much do new, replacement transaxles cost vs a funeral, or even just the casket(S??).
"....A note on silent recalls: They often are expressed as "bulletins," or "consumer satisfaction campaigns." That means they require consumer vigilance and action to get a favorable response. It's the squeaky-wheel-gets-the-oil thing. Is it legal? Yes. is it fair? Companies think so. Most consumers think not. Federal recalls occur in matters of safety or emissions. If a vehicle defect falls outside of those parameters, or is adjudged to fall outside of those parameters, it is not recallable in the formal sense. You, as consumers, have to complain loudly. "
Meanwhile the dealerships can continue to "clean fuel injectors" and "replace transmission fluids" in order to "solve" the hesitation problem. My dealer actually told me that it was up to the customer to mention the TSB....they ignored them.
in design, engineering and manufacturing, there are always tradeoffs and compromises to be made. i suspect that when they designed the system, they had no intent to supply a machine with this sort of response behavior. it would have been rejected by the designers and their testers.
i continue to contend that there is a number of people experiencing the effects of a marginal part here. it's possible in my mind anyway that the SW design and programming supporting the HW here was developed under the assumption that the mechanicals and electricals would behave to a certain set of specifications. if these parts do not, then the SW programming may actually make the problem more pronounced.
i'm trying to reconcile the fact bkinblk, that immediately following the latest re-programming of your vehicle, that the behavior of the engine/tranny in the scenarios you tested was actually better, and degraded again as you drove it for more time.
perhaps, wwest, the adaptive learning / binning is worsening an issue with a mechanical or electrical part because a mechanical or electrical part isn't performing as it should and the SW and the parameters it refines in it's adaptive cycle is being pushed to some extrema. could it be possible that there is a lazy solenoid that isn't performing to the duty-cycle it is commanded to, or there is a non-linearity (slack?) in the position measurement of either the throttle /petal, or the throttle body feedback?
this is the only way i can reconcile the fact that some people experience the hesitation, while others do not. sure, driving style and perception issues, yes, but there are people claiming smooth operation, others claiming behavior which degraded somewhat after a period of ownership, and others claiming they could feel it right from the first drive.
i'm thinking your issue wont significantly improve until a physical part or parts are replaced on the vehicle since it cannot be completely compensated for by modifications to the programming that they can realistically modify (i assume a custom ECM/TCM configuration is completely out of the question...what they develop in response must be geared to everyone with the problem.
it's rather sad we can only speculate at this point as to the root cause and ultimate mitigation.
perhaps if the arbitrator doesn't rule in your favor, you could ask the manufacturer to replace first your transmission, and secondly your accelerator and throttle body sending unit. i guess that isn't likely - but i'd like to know if the problem here is mechanical / electrical and not software.
In other words, what do you think might happen if a friend posed as an arbitrator---sort of a "pre-test"?
Sept 10 2005: The second time, they simply checked the ECU and road tested the car. They said the first TSB was performed correctly. I have noticed no improvement.
I am sorry but there are things here that really dont add up to me. Complaints of 2 and 3 second hesitation, which would indeed be a safety issue, but no one ever actually has an arbitrator that can verify it? A 1 second hesitation might not bother some people and I am not sure it would even be a safety issue but to make statements like How much do new, replacement transaxles cost vs a funeral, or even just the casket makes this whole discussion seem a bit absurd. For bkinblks arbitration I can tell you the outcome, the arbitrator was not even allowed to test the vehicle? So that puts the arbitrator in the position of deciding, based on discussion, whether or not Toyotas design on thousands of vehicles is faulty? Thats not the arbitrators call, that would be someone much more powerful like the NHTSA. The arbitrator is only deciding if your particular vehicle is in need of further repair or whether you are really entitled to have a refund.
I am checking out of this pity party. Have fun boys, but you better get used to your cars because this approach is going to get you nowhere.
Insofar as I can tell the transaxle's hydraulic pressure control solenoid has no feedback sensor or sensors that can be used to correct or tune the PWM signal so it is operating "open loop".
Of course it is entirely possible that the ECU is using the level of clutch slippage at each engagement cycle to determine if the level of pressure commanded via the solenoid but that approach seems a little "iffy" to me.
But if the problem must be laid at the "feet" of some mechanical or device failure then I would certainly vote first and foremost for the hydraulic pressure control solenoid.
330: there are things here that really dont add up to me"
So it might appear, but I think this is because there was a slight initial improvement in response, and then programming set in again as it was driven.
"A 1 second hesitation might not bother some people and I am not sure it would even be a safety issue"
A 1 second hesitation is, without question, a safety issue. The next time you want to roll a 2 mph stop at your local mega-mall and then try to cut a left, to approximate the problem, just coast for a count of 'one one-thousand' then hit the turn while goosing the gas pedal at least halfway down to induce the trademark "lurch".
If I was going to borrow you my car, I would have to tell you about this. In a crowded parking lot, not understanding the way acceleration can be delayed and then introduced in a sudden burst would not be a good thing.
To answer Shifty's post, yes, my brother drove my 05 Camry SE 6 and didn't notice hesitation. But, his daily car is a manual 2005 GTO, and he drove my Camry about the same way (FAST). If you race around fast and come to complete stops at stop signs, you are not going to notice the problem. You'll also go through more gas...
But the thing is, I don't have any problems with how this car runs when you're gunning it. I like that part, although the gas can start to cost you. The fact is, the so-called Toyota factory designed one second delay virtually disappears when you goose the gas hard. When driven hard, the car responds as expected, except for throttle touch in tight circumstances (which has a huge effect on handling in tight quarters) sometimes.
The problem is when you're trying to be slow and polite in a parking lot, or just doing slow to slow and slow to mid-throttle maneuvers. When I went to a pigroast in the country Saturday, it was great because there was no need to significantly integrate my driving with other vehicles. The delay problem is most prevalent when trying to integrate flow with other vehicles in slow/stop/go situations.
"How much do new, replacement transaxles cost vs a funeral, or even just the casket"
I just checked it out, and boy transaxles aren't cheap...I ordered a casket instead..it's a black 05 camry se... ; )
Chris
QUOTE: "See how fast she'll go..."
I have to confess that I dont know what you mean about the "throwaway joke" though. I lost a dear uncle in a car accident, so I guess whatever the joke was, I don't find it funny either.
Chris
________________________________________________________________
"How much do new, replacement transaxles cost vs a funeral, or even just the casket"
I just checked it out, and boy transaxles aren't cheap...I ordered a casket instead..it's a black 05 camry se... ; )
________________________________________________________________
This was kind of a joke on myself, since I'm the one who would be driving the thing if and when it crashed, what with warning any other prospective drivers off...
"None of us that have been to the funeral of a friend or relative killed in a car "accident", would find your little throwaway joke very funny."
You speak for many who have not spoken, and pretend to give them voice.
Chris
I describe it as "turbo lag", except it happens all the time when driving, not just when flooring it.
It took a while for me to convince my wife that it wasn't me driving eratically in the parking lot. The car would not respond, then lurch forward, and she was like "What the h*!! are you doing?!".
It would pi$$ me off a lot to have spent a bunch of bucks on a new car or SUV, and find you have to deal with a problem like this. You're entitled to use some humor, even dark humor, to prevent a meltdown.
Peace.
Latest developments changed that.
I take strong exception to those who equate driving vehicles with momentary hesitation to *Owning a coffin*, or implying that * Replacement transaxles are cheaper than funerals.*
Not only are remarks like that in extremely poor taste, but constitute offensive and alarmist hyperbole of the worst kind. I am surprised the moderator even allowed them, after viewing other more innocuous remarks he has chastised others about.
I have an 05 RX330 which exhibits none of the objectionable characteristics spoken about in this thread. That is not to say others do.
But I must confess that even if there was a delay of merely one click of a sweep second hand, I would see absolutely no cause for any of the kind of rhetoric expressed about it here.
A one second delay may be aggravating to those few who notice it, but it certainly doesn't constitute a great problem of any sort, and it definitely does not qualify as a safety concern of any degree.
Furthermore, if as some are saying, they are experiencing longer delays of 3 to 5 seconds, then I find it even more surprising that no arbitrator, NHTSA, Centre For Auto Safety, nor any other similar organization, has raised the issue as a serious safety/mechanical problem.
Makes me wonder if we aren't seeing a measure of exaggeration about these more lengthy delays. Remarks about funerals and coffins merely heighten that possibility.
Very often the question of "feeling safe" is one of tolerance and comfort at the individual level. It's not a fixed reality.
I agree. Perception is, in fact, reality. My perception is a reality those remarks were very much intended, and in very poor taste regardless. Obviously, I'm not alone in feeling that way.
I am surprised a class act like Edmunds would allow it even if it was just *to make a point."
Your perception is your reality, and yours alone. Ever notice how, without the reality changing, your perception (or anyone's perception) can change?
But I must confess that even if there was a delay of merely one click of a sweep second hand, I would see absolutely no cause for any of the kind of rhetoric expressed about it here.
A one second delay may be aggravating to those few who notice it, but it certainly doesn't constitute a great problem of any sort, and it definitely does not qualify as a safety concern of any degree.
i assert you would not be classifying the problem in this way if you, your spouse, or a family member were experiencing it.
But it's their right to express their opinion, however uninformed it is.
Just my 2 cents...
One click of a sweep second hand is much ado about nothing in my opinion.
It definitely doesn't warrant being referred to in such context of life threatening imagery.
Tinman-
I'm glad to hear your RX runs without problems. Sorry you found some statements made here distasteful and offense. With regard to statements I have made here, I assure you that was not my intent. I certainly hope you won't let the opinions of others here dissuade you from posting. Diversity of opinion is a good thing.
However, I do disagree when you say that a one second delay "definitely does not qualify as a safety concern of any degree." Nor do I see any factual basis for that conclusionary statement.
The 3.3 is a torquey engine, producing 240 lb-ft @ a very low 3600 rpm. When one steps on the accelerator and nothing happens, the natural reaction is to apply more throttle. Doing so often results in the delayed and abrupt "lurch" forward, as so many here have experienced firsthand.
In a crowded parking lot with pedestrians and kids present, it is my belief that the result of a driver not knowing about this defect could easily be serious injury or death. That isn't hyperbole, it's a fact based on the performance characteristics of at least my vehicle, and according to many others here, theirs too.
I don't recall seeing any posts regarding 3 to 5 second delays, not to say they don't exist. I too would be very skeptical of such claims absent findings by at least one of the organizations you cited.
Chris
It would be nice to be able to hang around and participate, but contrary to your invitation, diversity of opinion isn't allowed in this discussion.
Interesting to note how quickly the knives appear whenever someone doesn't toe the line.
Almost immediately my comments are tagged with *just another naysayer*.
Amazing what a single person can do with a free web-based email and a different user name. Makes you wonder about people's motives, doesn't it?
I only hope to have enough time in the future to complain about people that have a problem I don't have. What a life to have so much leisure time!
Seriously. You have to make split second decisions in this kind of traffic all the time. If you need to get over, and there's a small gap, will your car respond, or will you side-swipe somebuddy?
If it was constant, no big deal, you adjust for it.
BTW, maybe it's the cheap gas I've been using, but I have noticed a greater than 1 second delay. Mostly when rolling through a yield sign then applying the gas.
If I were Tinman, I might be concerned about the effect that this thread might have on resale values and buyer interest if I wanted to sell down the line. Reading about the type of problem were dealing with here might scare away potential buyers down the line, even though in Tinman's case, there is apparently nothing wrong with the vehicle. So I think that it's very important for people to know that this problem is probably not present in every vehicle for all the models it has been detected in.
I'll be the first to admit I'm no mind reader, but I find that keeping an open mind is the next best thing, and that assumed motives are not always correct. That is why I like to hear all viewpoints, including those that (I think) may run counter to my own.
I have to say that I don't see how labelling posters with titles like "naysayer" advance this dialogue. But that is just my opinion, and I'm just happy this place exists so that we can work together to solve our problem.
Chris
I followed this discussion closely because it contradicts opinion polls by virtually all the major players who consistently rate Lexus as No.1 in quality, reliability, and resale.
My only reason for getting into it was to express displeasure over those recent remarks which were way overboard, no less, no more. Hesitation or delay of one second was contexted tastelessly as a life threatening issue, and I opined as much--once.
Yet almost immediately, the barbs arrive on scene. Name calling. Inferences about changing usernames?? Motives held to question. Veiled insults. New guy get lost! No problems, no business here!
All good reasons why I was reluctant to get involved in the first place.
Like you said, can someone explain why this often happens here, and how it adds any value?
I'm listening.
If someone truly feels their life is in danger, whether from a 1 or 3 second delay, and does nothing more than post here, then they are either exaggerating or have a death wish. The excuse of "well look what happened to so and so" does not cut it. That would be okay if you were just reporting a nuisance. But if you are going to make claims like those above, and then not take every possible action available, your credibility is in question. I am sorry but that's just the way it is.
I imagine the reason you didn't receive a warm welcome is because you said we were overblowing the problem, engaging in rhetoric & hyperbole. Not something well received by people that have a legitimate problem.
Lexus RX330 Forum
I think the safety question has been hammered to death already (no pun intended) and is not provable or disprovable, so why don't we all move on with latest news, deveopments or personal experiences?
thank you
MrShiftright
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Also, please try not to argue online or respond to provocation. Always let the Host handle any annoyances by alerting him or her through e-mail.
thank you and please continue your discussion
mrShiftright
Host
thank you
MrShiftright
Host
I don't have a death wish, nor do I believe I am exaggerating. And bknblk has taken every possible action available, and look what it has availed him of. Nothing.
As an experienced driver (I drove for quite a few years for a living) I have chosen to continue driving, knowing the risk. But no one is a perfect driver, and I believe this problem could affect even the best driver at the wrong time with fatal consequences.
Chris
Between December of 91 and February of 92 I had several harrowing experiences involving extremely low forward visibility in heavy traffic at freeway speeds. One of these was on a cold mountain pass with a substantial level of traffic AND snow and ice on the roadbed.
Quickly defogging the windshield in that instance involved lowering the rear windows.
Lexus at first tried to convince me that I was mis-operating the system, leaving it in recirculate in a cold climate. By mid-February I had made the decision that the car would remain parked in my garage until Lexus resolved the issue to my satisfaction.
By the fall of 92 it was becoming clear that Lexus was pretending that my problem didn't exist. So I began the arbitration process which then led to a trial under the state lemon law statute.
I lost.
So, since I deemed the car unsafe to operate and I couldn't sell it in good conscience and Lexus had made it clear they would be of no help I decided to look into the cause and effect on my own.
During the court case I had testified that during one of the windshield fogging instances I had reacted by turning the system to defrost/defog/demist mode and then as rapidly as was possible turning both the blower speed and the heating level to maximum.
The Lexus expert testified in court that it was these actions that had led to the exacerbation of the windshield fogging circumstance. At that time all I had going for me was experience, no real knowledge base with which to dispute the expert.
Over the next ten years or so I was to learn exactly and in great detail what was wrong with my 92 LS400's climate control.
The first thing I did was add a switch under the dash panel near the drivers left knee that added a resistance in series with the cabin air temperature sensor. If the windshield threatened, even slightly, to begin fogging over I turned the switch on and then activated the defog/demist mode. The added resistance would cause the ECU to sense that the cabin had suddenly gone extremely cold and would almost instantly raise the heating and blower level to maximum.
I subsequently determined that most of my windshield fogging problems had most likely occurred shortly after the A/C compressor was shut down. One of the instances had occurred as I drove into the nearby Cascade mountain range and the outside temperature declined from moderate to sub-zero. The Lexus climate control disables the A/C compressor once the OAT declines to ~35F.
So I during the winter months I added a resistor in series with the OAT sensor so that at about 45F actual OAT the ECU sensed a sub-zero OAT and disabled the A/C.
From the very beginning I had surmised that my windshield fogging problem was somehow related to the fact that the LS400 was unusually well insulated against wind noise and exterior sound sources. By default that meant that once the interior cabin temperature became humid it would take some time before the humidity declined.
So I added 4 small 12 volt PC cooling type exhauster fans, two in each quarter panel in the cabin atmosphere exhauster vent/path. The fans activated automatically if I used the defrost/defog/demist mode or the rear window demist/defog heater.
In 2001 Lexus added two c-best options to the RX300 series that allows the owner to completely disable the A/C operation in normal operation and unlinked from the defrost/defog/demist mode. I had both activated so my A/C is NEVER used during the winter months.
Now I see that the climate control firmware has been modified to automatically switch from cooling mode, A/C compressor operational, to heating mode when the OAT declines below 35F.
So, the new Lexus models will still run in cooling mode, routing discomforting COOL airflow to the face and upper body, even when the human body is reacting to the lack of radiant heat due to the coolness of the surrounding landscape. In cooling mode NO warming airflow is routed to the interior surface of the windshield.
So now, the OAT declines to 35F, the A/C compressor is disabled, freeing ALL of the condensate into the cold and dry incoming fresh air, simultaneously a portion of that super-saturated airflow is routed to the interior surface of a previously chilled windshield.
A recipe for disaster, you think?
Some one needs to advise them that the switch from cooling to heating needs to occur at something like 47F so the windshield might become somewhat warmed BEFORE the A/C is disabled at 35F and thereby releases all of the condensate into the passenger cabin.
NOT ME!
your persistence and research should be rewarded with a new model and they should have you work under a NDA as a field beta-tester...
It is frightening to think of the consequences of the Toyota / Lexus design. It would seem that it is inevitable that a driver would have their viability through the vehicle's windshield impeded by the dang A/C system.
My skeptical side keeps insisting that Toyota cannot improve this situation without admitting past guilt. and so - won't do anything. We can't be sure, mind you, but avoiding the appearance of past guilt has stopped many a noble endeavor.
As for me, I'm going to stick with manual A/C units, and manual transmissions - wherever practical.