Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)

Mr_Shiftright

I believe the idea was put forth (which sounded pretty good to me) some time ago in this forum that the "problem" was perhaps not one, single, defective component but rather a set of conditions, perhaps a combo of mechanical (the component) environmental (temperature, driving conditions, etc.) and driver-related (style of driving, driving habits), that all had to "add up" for this problem to occur.

spencer327

I appreciate all the factors that can enter into this equation. But the technical analysis and over anaysis does not fix the problem. Only Toyota can do this. My hope is that forums such as this, serve notice to, and motivate Toyota to act. They obviously have acted with the TSBs. We don't know where the impetus came from, but hope this forum had an effect. Now the proof will be the responses given by the HL owners that have had the TSB done. From what I have seen so far it does not look promising. I personally would love to have my HL shift like a tranny should. The old adage of the squeeky wheel gets the grease applies.
Let this forum continue to be the squeeky wheel.
Sorry for the lecture. Thats all folks

wwest

Not true, Toyota may actually be constrained by CAFE & CARB regulations from providing a proper fix, or maybe the most appropriate one.

Remember that this issue goes all the way back to the 2002 MY Camry.

I absolutely agree that Toyota undoubtedly knows exactly what the causative factors are, and could readily come up with a solution if not constrained from doing so by some entity or force outside of their control.

Or it may even be a monetary consideration. Assuming my "over" analysis is correct, the engine hesitation symptom is the result of a firmware fix applied to later models to alleviate the premature transaxle failures in earlier models wherein the coastdown/upshifting firmware was first introduced..

Fixing the "fix" might require an admission that Toyota is aware, and responsible, for the causative factors surroiunding the premature transaxle failures of earlier models. That could get expensive, REALLY EXPENSIVE!

Mr_Shiftright

Actually the forums are intended primarily to exchange helpful information and build a sense of community. Serving as a complaint station to strong-arm manufacturers isn't really the misson, as that would be too narrow for all this effort. There are other sites that are specific to consumer-advocacy. However, there is no doubt that one way or the other information from these forums will filter down to Toyota and hopefully they will also find it useful.

spencer327

If its out of Toyotas control and they know what the problem is then we are stuck with this tranny and the Toyota fix will probably never happen.
In which case if one is not happy then its time to move on.

To change the subject, and possibly add an alternative, I have seen several references to the HH having a CVT tranny does anybody know this to be true. I cannot find any info on the Toyota site.

user777

I absolutely agree that Toyota undoubtedly knows exactly what the causative factors are, and could readily come up with a solution if not constrained from doing so by some entity or force outside of their control.

the thing here is if we believe that many people DONT have the problem and/or they are not TOO STUPID to recognize it, report on it, etc...well then, we have to conclude that it is a defect in some cars that the manufacturer can't seem to fix as of yet - perhaps compensate for slightly, but not fix.

i think i've consistently indicated there's a chance for some non-linearity (either sensors or actuators)...

one way to test this theory is for someone with the problem to get the appropriate scanner that can read the toyota specific data and store it on a PC as the vehicle is driven. we could look at the control system inputs, outputs and the response and see if something obvious pops up.

scoti1

I am sure Toyota monitors this site and others. Don't know if they would react specifically to what appears here, but this problem is appearing on plenty of other message boards, blogs, complaint sites, review sites....

The sludge issue keeps popping its ugly head even in this discussion. If you search on Edmunds you will see that Toyota Motor Sales started an Edmunds discussion forum specifically to discuss their response and fix of that problem. That discussion was closed a long time ago, but I would say it shows that they do monitor this site and respect it enough to use it themselves to disseminate info and answer questions.

I believe being vocal can only help the cause. Better than just living with a problem then having sour grapes against the company for a life time. If they address complaints in a responsive manner, they are sure to keep more customers coming back for more.

commish1

Does anyone recall the website that I can check out what TSB's are out for my 2005 Carmy SE V6 (It is a P.O.S.).

wwest

referring to anyone or even any group as TOO STUPID!

Please, there are far too many other possible explanations for other owners not experiencing the engine hesitation problem rather than referring to anyone as stupid.

scoti1

This is not a very user friendly link, but it includes the full text of all the Toyota TSB's: http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/

You can find a summary of all the TSB's for your make and model year at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/tsbsearch.cfm

scoti1

Commish1 - If you are looking for the TSB for the ECM calibration for the Camry, here is the link: http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toyota/1117782000000_1118214000000_TC003-05/31.html

bkinblk

Had the second arbitration today with the same Toyota rep, but different arbitrator. The Toyota rep said that the June 21, 2005 TSB was implemented to correct only the items on the TSB, NOT the hesitation issue. She said there is a one second hesitation upon acceleration in all Toyota vehicles with this drivetrain, and that it is designed for the protection and safety of the drivetrain. She said there would never be a "fix" or TSB for the hesitation issue. I reminded them that the previous arbitrator stated in his conclusion that my two concerns were "valid". One concern was the erratic and irregular shifting and the other concern was the hesitation (which I said prevented split second reaction time in defensive driving). Since the TSB addressed my first concern (tolerable), I stated that my other concern remains "valid" and will remain "valid" until Toyota cancels my lease and takes back my vehicle. I will know his answer in about a week. Much more to report and I will try to answer questions when I can.

scoti1

Wouldn't a "downshift lag" be the same as "hesitation"? That is one of the items that the TSB is to correct, a "downshift lag". Read the link I posted earlier today for commish1 for the '04-'05 Camry.

Also, if I remember correctly, those earlier articles that came out quoting a Toyota rep also stated that the new ECM reprogramming was to correct the hesitation problem. Many dealers are applying the TSB to correct the hesitation problem. Something isn't right here. If your arbitrator believes the Toyota rep and does not research the TSB, then you are likely SOL

I also find it odd that the Toyota rep stated that there is a hesitation in ALL Toyota vehicles since clearly there are those reporting no such hesitation here, particulary billran who has gone out of his way to try to make his car hesitate and says he still feels nothing.

One question -- is there any noticeable improvement after having the TSB performed the second time?

wwest

of the drivetrain.

jmcdon7230

I had never used the word "hesitation" to describe my problem with our Camry until the Toyota service advisor mentioned it. I had been calling it "delayed
acceleration". His use of the word "hesitation" led me to this website through Google. Which in turn led me to the TSB. Strange that the service advisor was aware of the hesitation problem, but unaware of the TSB solving it.

scoti1

bkinblk, I am still fuming over your experience yesterday. Maybe it will still work out in your favor, but I can't believe the things the Toyota rep told you and the arbitrator.

We discussed the Pittsburgh article extensively before, but I thought I would look at it again in light of what the Toyota rep stated to you in arbitration:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05102/486687.stm

It is clear that the original intent of the reprogramming was to correct the hesitation problem (from the TSB language as well as this article). Did you present this article or the actual TSB to the arbitrator during your meetings? Will there be a transcript of your findings? If they say that the hesitation is in every vehicle and that there is no fix, I would take that to the media. The Pittsburgh reporter would probably run with it.

bkinblk

What the heck, I've gone this far. However, last time I didn't get a transcript of our meeting, only the arbitrators decision. I left the meeting feeling I made a good case for "ourselves", but I'm just one little guy going up against a multi billion dollar corporation. Can you imagine the pandoras box that would be opened if the arbitrator ruled in my favor based on the design of the drivetrain? (i.e. hesitation) . I don't have much hope for a victory, but maybe I made it a little easier for the next guy. I did give the arbitrator a copy of the TSB, so he can evaluate it himself and determine if "hesitation" is specifically being addressed.

bkinblk

Strange, the first time I had the TSB performed, the car performed as bad, if not worse than before. The second time I took the car in, the regional bigwigs were apparantly there. They checked everything and took the car on a 15 mile test drive. They reported the car performed normally in all aspects. Interesting, I am positive that there has been an improvement in the shift patterns since the last "inspection". Perhaps slightly paranoid, but I'll bet some unreported "tweaking" was done to provide the incremental shift quality improvement. Who knows.

jim70

Well, my wife loves the Highlander and there are some good deals to be had on the 05s this weekend, so we are going to go see what we can find. We have test driven the cars a lot, and even asked complete strangers what they think of their cars. Everyone we have talked to loves them, and none are aware of the hesitation issue. (A very unscientific sample of 8 people we stopped in parking lots and gas stations). After reading this board my personal opinion is that, more than anything else, it is personal perception. I am 50 and have driven a lot of cars, and all of them occasionally exhibited some hesitation in certain circumstances, depending on vehicle speed, engine RPM etc. Whatever hesitation may be built into this drivetrain is basically undetectable to us, and obviously many others. I understand that some people may have different expectations and are disappointed with their cars. I have not however seen anything that would come close to a safety issue. I do detect on this board some anger that seems to exceed the actual facts.

I have appreciated the opportunity to hear some various opinions on this. Now we are off to try and see what kind of deals we can get with no further concern. I wish those who are unhappy to find success with some solution that allows you move past this issue.

jmcdon7230

"Now we are off to try and see what kind of deals we can get with no further concern."
Good luck....and may you never have to brace yourself, as I have done, for the oncoming impact after pressing on the accelerator and oozing out into a break in traffic.

scoti1

I do detect on this board some anger that seems to exceed the actual facts.

I am not sure what you mean by that. Oh well.

Luck to you. At least you did your research well and there should be no surprises, whether you detect the hesitation or not. Happy trails.

mert2

Sad, but not surprising. I clench up everytime I discover a bad part on my wife's '99 camry that is dealer-only. If it's not an oil-change & carwash, get ready to part with your wallet as they try to figure out the problem one part at a time.

My friend that has the Hesitating Lexus, or as I like to say the Lexus that demonstrates the situation described in the TSB bought a new Acura MDX. He says it's nice not having any hesitation when driving the Acura, I told him that his Lexus & my Camry don't really hesitate, it's just our perception.

jim70

I wanted to offer an apology and explanation because I believe there may have been a misunderstanding from what I said in my previous post. When I say that I think the problem has a lot to do with perception, this is what I mean:

There have been many posts on the board indicating that the transmission performance issues discussed here can be found in all Toyota 6 cylinder, 5 speed drivetrains. If that is true, then the question is why do some people feel their cars have a serious safety issue while other owners have no concerns at all and are perfectly happy? The only explanation I can come up with is personal perception. And by that I DON’T mean that it is all in your head or that you are blowing it out of proportion. I mean that we are all different, and there are things that may bother you a lot that may be insignificant to someone else, and vice verse. That does not make you wrong and them right; it just makes us all different. It also must play at least a small part in why some people are perfectly happy with their transmissions and others just the opposite.

So no insult intended towards anyone. Just trying to make sense of it all.

I would speculate one thing however. I think you could choose any make and model of car at random. Then tell everyone who owns one of those cars that they likely have a drivetrain that may hesitate or have other shifting irregularities, and perhaps even a safety issue. I would bet that at least 10% of those owners would come back and tell you that indeed they have perceived something unusually about how their transmission shifts. Some may even agree it is a safety issue

If you want my advice and you want to taken really seriously; dont exagerate, and accept the fact that not everyone is as unhappy with their car as you are. It was actually some of the posts of the unhappy people here that convinced me to dismiss this whole discussion and form my own opinion. I also think that any truthful investigation into a problem needs to look at the owners who have no problems just as closely as those who do.

We picked up our car today, but I won’t go into any more detail because I don’t want to upset anyone further. It is clear that the only type of posts that are truly welcome here are either those that tell how much a person hates their car, or simply just bash Toyota. So if you don’t ever hear from me again you can assume that I am one of those people who does not perceive any problems with his car.

Good luck to all.

pilot130

Re Your most objective assessment Jim.
COMPLETE and TOTAL AGREEMENT!!

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, okay, but to be really fair about it, if you DO have problems with the transmission, I hope you are brave enough to come back and tell everyone about it and about your possible change in perception.

PS: Actually a 10% dissatisfaction rate with a car is considered quite enormous as far as complaints go. That's no small number to an automotive exec---it's a scary number actually.

And last of all -- "brand-bashers" are in fact not at all encouraged in the Edmunds.com forums and are often chastised to not do that.

thank you

MrShiftright
Host

Please continue!

wwest

when you first start (after the ignition was off) these vehicles in motion they begin anew to learn the driver's "style". Within a minute are so the new driver is "binned" in one of four categories. After 3 minutes the binning is refined into one of sixteen categories. Thereafter the "learning" system keeps a running record of the past 3 minutes of your driving and will recategorize you if necessary.

My guess is that those that are having these problems are being categorized in the non-aggressive sections of the learning. That isn't to say that the problem will be restricted to those non-aggressive drivers, many of us, aggressive or not, spend many miles driving "benignly".

So, when a driver experiences one of the three circumstances (TSB) known to lead to experiencing the engine hesitation problem, just what was their driving style, overall, for the previous three minutes?

The driver style learning timing, 1 minute and 3 minutes, is taken from an engineering white paper found here on the internet.

user777

there are people here that have been advocating that there is the possibility that a non-conformance in a critical part (or parts) in the system is at root cause.

yes - it is reasonable to assume that perception plays a role here, but what some are reporting cannot be explained away by a hyper-sensitivity or perception.

for some reason, the system is retarding application of torque and the delay is more than marginally perceptable and is completely unacceptable.

why there are those trying to convince those with the problem that it doesn't exist is quite explainable. why there are those claiming people are bashing toyota is equally explainable.

why this issue exists is not so explainable.

jmcdon7230

Why, after Toyota issued the TSB's, are there still deniers, agnostics and lecturers advising us that a problem doesn't exist?

However, don't stop....it's fascinating.

spencer327

Let me sum up what I have gotten from this forum
There may or may not be a perceived problem?
There may or may not be a real problem?
Toyota issues aTSB for the real or perceived problem ( to be used only on customer complaint) acknowledges 1 second delay?
TSB results are questionable.
Forum members technical analysis of "problem" inconsequential
Forum members legal experts want more proof

Does anyone wonder why this chaos exists
Its time to move on. I give up. This has been a total waste of my time
Thanks for everybodies efforts.

scoti1

Apology accepted. It does sound as though you were saying it is all in your head when you call it a "perception" issue. However, I can agree that some are more perceptive or concerned about their cars performance and may find a slight delay more annoying than others. When the delay slips into the 1 sec or more category, I think anyone will feel it and be concerned. For whatever reason, not all hesitate this long (even though that is what the Toyota rep told bkinblk). So, it it my opinion that is a performance issue that varies by car, or maybe it is from the learning that wwest describes, so that the less aggressive drivers are more apt to have a longer hesitation. I don't know. I do believe that you and others do not notice the problem. I commend you on researching this. It sounds like this is the vehicle you really wanted when you started out and I hope it lives up to your dreams and expectations.

rsw41

A new (old) guy wades in...

2005 V6 Highlander - drove off the lot June 3, 2005.

Cruise control behaves erratically, often feeling like it "floors" it just because we've falling a couple of mph behind desired speed.

Requesting "pass this turkey" yields different results, sometimes awkward downshifts and rapid acceleration, sometime preceded and/or followed by hesitation.

Approaching village intersection, downhill, foot on brake, take foot off brake, begin left turn onto desired street, apply a bit of gas...nothing, apply a bit more gas...nothing, add just a bit more, THEN acceleration too fast, causing driver's and passenger's head to tip back. This is a narrow Main Street in a Maine village. There are lots of possible targets, cars and kids and bikes and others.

And then there is the unanticipated downshifting for braking effect that tips heads forward... but that's another story for another day, and not quite as annoying or of nearly the same concern.

The dealer's service manager (Waterville, Maine) first asserted there were no adjustments accessible for his mechanics. Nothing he could do. Get used to it. After applying a bit more gas from me and a hesitation or two from him, he searched for TSBs that might apply. Found none. Then found one dated June 3, 2005...that related to recalibration of the transmission. Absolutely no mention of these expressions of concern or earlier TSBs.

I expected better from Toyota, much better. I still expect better, and mean to try to get it.

I agree that these reports are the results of my perceptions. I perceive stuff that is happening.

So, has anyone written Toyota? What's the next step?

05camry33se

Welcome aboard.

Sounds like you might have a particularly acute case of the hesitation dose. Too bad, because despite this one issue, Toyotas in general are still overall nice vehicles.

There is a way to safely drive in crowded areas. You just need to come to a COMPLETE stop and then SLOWLY apply a LITTLE throttle UNTIL the tranny engages. In my experience, the worst hesitation happens when trying to do a slow (2-5 mph) rolling stop.

That's the best I can give you for now. Bkinblk said he saw improvement after some regional honchos got their hands on his ride, so maybe if you want to take it that far you'll see results. Otherwise, your prospects appear fairly bleak.

Sorry and best of luck, and I do mean that. I spent a bit of time trying to find a solution to this issue, in fact just to find this forum, and here I still am. I've never had such an abnormal problem with any other vehicle I've driven or owned (except the '74 Pinto with the exploding on rear impact gas tank), and certainly never spent a minute on the internet to try to track such a thing down.

I would never let anyone drive my car as it is now without giving them a detailed, specific warning about its acceleration properties.

Chris

john_dallas

Hello all. I am joining this forum as another consumer who is dissatisfied with my new Toyota Highlander 2005 because of the engine hesitation, shifting lag, lurching or whatever you want to call it. Thirty grand and this is what I get! My Highlander was built in July 2005 and has no sticker on the inside of the hood (as described in TSB TC004-05) telling me if the internal software has been upgraded. Since the TSB came out in June 2005, no one in this forum, or the dealers that I have called, seem to know if post-June vehicles have been upgraded. I can only hope NOT—but, I’m nervous about having the fix done since it may make things worse. As of today, I am planning to take it in next week (~Sept. 14) to get the TSB applied, if it hasn’t been already. Like others have said in the forum: why hasn’t there been more press about this—the problem is 2 years old? This is our seventh Toyota since 1984, and assumed (poorly) that this one would be as terrific as the past ones. Whoever in the forum said there is anger about this situation, is damn right, and the problem justifies it!

dino01

I tried to trade my 05 Camry LE V6 with my wife 99 Honda CRV and she absolutely refuse. She claimed that her underpower high milage CRV is accelate, and shift much more smootly than my new Camry.
I have tried 2 different dealers, and have the lastest TSB done. I don't know to explain it but it just not the same to other car that I have driven. It is the jerky, shift up and down at around 40 MPH that drive me nut. All of the dealers involved said the car is performed as design. Heck, wish they have let me know before hand. On other hand my inlaw 's 2005 LE 4 cylinder is a pleasure to drive, no hesitation none of that jerky motion, and I "perceive" that this car is accelerate faster than much more powerful car.
And by the way, Welcome to the club.

wwest

It appears that somewhere about the year 2000, possibly earlier, Toyota made a design change in the ECU control firmware for ALL transaxle, FWD, type automatic transmissions. Basically the modification involved upshifting the transaxles to a higher gear, say O/D, or maybe even into neutral, during coastdown circumstances wherein the gas pedal was fully released.

Many owners of the RX300 made note of this aspect, describing it as a feeling of being bumped lightly from behind just before coming to a full stop. At higher coastdown speeds owners described the feeling as the "slingshot effect", the vehicle "apparently" gaining speed upon throttle closure.

It is relatively easy to see that this design change would result in improved fuel economy and lower overall emissions. But if that were the real, or core reason, why not apply the same modification to Toyota's RWD based vehicles?

Why only the FWD or front biased AWD vehicle models?

The only possible answer, seemingly, was to eliminate or substantially reduce the instances of loss of control due to inadvertent, otherwise unavoidable, engine compression braking on, potentially, a very slippery roadbed.

And if you browse about here and there on the internet you will find that many RX300 owners are complaining about premature transaxle failures at 70,000 to 80,000 miles. And there is yet another clue. The owners manual for the RX300 series makes not recommendation for ATF flushing and replenishing for the life of the vehicle.

Yet at 40,000 miles the ATF in my 2001 AWD RX300 smelled burned and looked more brownish than pink. When I enquired of Lexus corporate about this I was informed that the new recommendation was to drain and replenish the ATF each 15,000 miles of standard usage.

WHY?

The hip bone is connected to the leg bone!

Let's assume that I am correct and my RX300 transaxle quickly shifts into O/D, engaging the lockup clutch. Now when I suddenly decide to accelerate the engine will respond to my gas pedal depression INSTANTLY. The O/D lockup clutch is clearly not designed to withstand strong engine torque, nor is likely the 4th, O/D, clutches within the transaxle.

So the transaxle must now be downshifted into the proper gear for acceleration given the current roadspeed, and QUICKLY before the engine starts delivering a really serious level of torque.

But the problem is that with the transaxle being configured for coastdown mode with the ECU having commanded LOW transaxle hydraulic pressure and with the engine at low RPM there is insufficient pressure to fully engage the new downshift clutches fully and quickly.

So the RX300 transaxle clutches SLIP for a few milliseconds during each of these "unexpected" downshifts. Slipping clutches generate lots of HEAT and frictional surface wear beyond that planned during the design phase.

Upon reading some of the posts from owners I have come to suspect that Toyota has instituted an "unspoken" warranty program for otherwise out of warranty transaxle owners with premature failures.

wwest

So what does Toyota do about these premature transaxle failures?

Basically NOTHING!

Except for future models.

Those get an e-throttle which allows the engineers to delay the onset of engine torque developement long enough for the hydraulic pressure to rise substantially and thereby fully and firmly engage the "downshift" clutches.

Why not just eliminate or delay the upshifting?

CAFE & CARB regulations.

Or

The automotive insurance industry has picked up on the fact that FWD vehicles have a significantly higher accident and injury rate during adverse weather conditions that their RWD brotheren.

Regardless it has now become pretty obvious that there is no going back insofar as eliminating coastdown upshifts are concerned.

And please remember that Toyota is now on record saying that the hesitation symptom is a result of the need to protect the drivetrain.

bkinblk

To all the naysayers, there IS a problem here. I believe we have only scratched the surface on this one and I believe Toyota will do nothing to change the situation. (It's always about the money!) To all those who are effected by this problem (perceived or otherwise), I wish I had a suggestion to offer . For now, file a complaint with Toyota Customer Experience and also National Highway Traffic and Safety. I believe the phone numbers are in your owners packet.

scoti1

You can file complaints on-line at NHTSA at http://www.nhtsa.gov.

It can't hurt to also file with the Center for Auto Safety at http://www.autosafety.org. They have had some success in getting auto manufacturers to respond to problems.

jmcdon7230

When I bought my V6 Camry the salesman tried to steer me towards the 4 cylinder model. He even insisted I drive one, which I did. It was fine. Had surprisingly strong acceleration....but I wanted the "better" 6 cylinder model. Big mistake.

rsw41

Chris,

Thanks for the thoughts.

I understand your suggestion about coming to a complete stop...however, in the village scenario I described, I need to drive through the intersection to clear the way for the guy behind me, or coming rapidly up the hill, or entering from my right. In other words, it's not a good place to stop.

Of course, every single change in course or speed presents a different set of circumstances, and there will be times when I can stop.

Thanks, again, for your message.

Steve

330owner

Hi,

I have a 05 Lexus ES330 that does have some hesitation. It is not so severe as to be what I would consider a serious problem though. It would appear however that at least a few people here have a much more serious problem. Reading back I see statements like "my wife won't drive it" or "I would not let anyone else drive it". My question is that if the problem is really that serious, I would think it would be easily demonstratable to Toyota and if needed, and arbitrator. If Toyota claims it is normal performance for that drive train, certainly an arbitrator would support your claims, if they are as serious as you say.

I read that at least one person, bkinblk, went the arbitration route. The first time the arbitrator said the concerns were valid but that Toyota needed the opportunity to fix the car. Now Toyota has taken their best shot at fixing the problem and it sounds like there was some improvement. Now a second arbitration has taken place and I guess we are waiting on the arbitrator's decision now.

I guess my point is for those of you who say you have such a serious problem that you feel it is a safety issue, why not pursue it rather than just complaining here. Take it down the arbitration route and show the arbitrator just how serious it is. If your claims have merit I would certainly think you would get resolution.

05camry33se

"I guess my point is for those of you who say you have such a serious problem that you feel it is a safety issue, why not pursue it rather than just complaining here. Take it down the arbitration route and show the arbitrator just how serious it is. If your claims have merit I would certainly think you would get resolution."

We'll see. Bkinblk has been investing a considerable amount of his time and energy in attempting to resolve this over several months now and still has no resolution. I personally do not have the time to pursue the arb route.

That's one reason I bought another Camry, so I wouldn't have to invest time I don't have into this type of problem. (My 1997 Camry was totalled when someone in a minivan ahead of me made a U-turn, corralling me. I've been spending an extensive amount of time since then attempting to recover from injuries, and was hard pressed to just locate and purchase my new one.)

When depressing the accelerator from a rolling stop under 5 mph, my new Camry takes just over 2 seconds to engage the transmission and start accelerating, I've timed it out several times. I would call that a very serious defect no matter how conservative one's mindset may be.

Of course, the severity of a defect is not the determining factor in what action is or is not taken in this type of situation, money is. Until someone is seriously injured or killed due to this defect, (or more likely, until a number of people meet this end) and Toyota loses a few lawsuits, it is my opinion that no significant steps will be taken to remedy it, and that arbitration would be a non-productive waste of time that I simply don't have to waste.

Finally, I am happy that your 330 is satisfactory. Since my Camry has the same engine and transmission, I hope that down the line a way to fix mine of this defect will appear.

Chris

330owner

I am not saying that my car is perfect, it has some hesitation. But if it was as bad as some people are saying their cars are here, you can believe I would be looking into the arbitration route. If it is a valid complaint an arbitrator should be able to substantiate that claim. It is not about money for them, it is whether there is truly a valid concern that needs to be addressed.

scoti1

Arbitrators and arbitration have been discussed here quite a bit. I think when you have a novice (the customer) and the expert (Toyota Motor Sales) presenting the case to the arbitrator, the customer is at a bit of a disadvantage, so rulings are not always in the customers favor even when they have a valid complaint. The arbitrators don't even always take a drive in the vehicle, which doesn't seem very fair to me. Then of course, we have discussed before whether who pays the arbitrator has any bearing on the findings, but of course, if the arbitrator is a true unbiased professional that shouldn't be an issue.

user777

well written.

the issue of "safety" seems to be subjective in many people's mind. a 2 second hesitation in any or all scenarios is evidently acceptable to the manufacturer and some people, while a hesitation of a fraction of a second is rather unacceptable to others.

same thing with driveability and product acceptance: some people find a hesitation acceptable as they try to adapt to the behavior of the complex system and accept the arguments that "they all do it" and it is designed that way for the protection of the components. for others, it clearly does not support any learning and experience they have with several decades of driving other vehicles.

i think if you're going to go the arbitration route, and you really want out of the vehicle, you're going to have to capture some OBD-II datum in real-time using a laptop and show in a very objective and quantitative manner the failure of the system to honor the change in throttle request.

i think you can support your efforts if you contact a humans factors specialist in the transportation domain and have them provide factual reasons why hesitation in human-machine transportation systems, which contradicts prior learning and a simple mental model is inherently inappropriate and unsafe in some scenarios, not only to the primary driver and passengers of the vehicle, but other vehicles on the road.

you'd do great if you could force the manufacturer to reveal how many complaints or inquiries exist to correct the behavior of the system or attempts to improve driveability of these vehicles by re-flashing the ECM/TCM, but unfortunatley for everyone, they seem not to have to reveal that information.

330owner

Is it really necessary for the consumer to gather such a lot of technical info when from what I read the flaw is such an obvious problem? I mean, if the issue is so bad that the owner does not feel that it would be safe to let some else drive it, the arbitrator should be able to determine that with just a simple test drive. Even if it only affected one car, an arbitrator driving that car should be able to substantiate any truly valid concerns.

scoti1

I am not sure if the arbitrator always rides in the car. bkinblk said the first arbitrator rode in the back seat and from there was able to determine that his claim was valid:

"#1625 of 1738 Re: hesitation report of TSB [scoti1] by bkinblk Aug 23, 2005 (8:45 pm)
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Replying to: scoti1 (Aug 19, 2005 11:59 pm)

At my arbitration, the arbitrator rode in the back seat while the Toyota rep and myself took turns driving. He stated in his report that my concerns about the erratic shifting and hesitation were "valid". We'll see what the next guy says at the next meeting. "

We don't know the results from his round with a second arbitrator yet, but since the hesitation complaint was determined to be a valid complaint and it still existed after the TSB was applied (which he said it did) then the arbitrator should find in his favor. If he doesn't, the process is somehow flawed.

By the way, the Toyota rep stated at bkinblk's second arbitration hearing that a 1 sec. hesitation exists in all of the Toyota's with automatic 5-speed transmissions and cannot be fixed -- do you feel the 1 sec delay?

wwest

only occurs in certain specific circumstances as is defined very well in the applicable TSB. Additionally it may not occur at all depending on how the driver's driving style has been categorized by the "learning" system.

scoti1

Yeah, I know. It just bothers me how the Toyota rep at bkinblk's arbitration hearing said that they all do it for 1 sec., it's for safety of the drive train, and it can't be fixed. B.S.!

330owner

I do notice a hesitation but it is only occasionally and I would estimate it at 1 second or maybe less. I actually had thought it was simply engine hesitation because I do not detect any transmission involvement but from reading these posts it sounds more complex than that. I know all cars have some tiny delay between pressing the pedal and the acceleration kicking in, I wonder if there is some accepted standard. For me thankfully it is noticeable but not dangerous.

A 2 or 3 second delay though sounds huge, and if it is really that long I cant believe that any legitimate arbitrator would disagree with a customer that was a problem that needed attention.