"2. Is this the OTD price, or will there be other fees involved once I go to finance."
You should know this before you sign anything (would have been good to know before giving a deposit). Given that the car has not been delivered as promised, now is a good time to confirm with the dealer that there are no other fees involved. If they want to add something to the "deal," you can tell them no, ask for your deposit back, and shop elsewhere.
Firstly, you should essentially ignore the MSRP. You should negotiate from the invoice price, not the MSRP.
Secondly, you need to be aware of incentives available on the car, both in the form of factory-to-dealer payments and factory-to-customer payments. In the case of this car, there is $1,500-2,000 cash back available if you don't take the low APR financing (which being that the rate of the low APR program is 2% for 60 months, not 3%, it doesn't seem to include you.)
So here's the bad news -- if you are paying approx. $500 under MSRP for a car that is eligible for a $1,500 rebate, then you are effectively paying $1,000 OVER sticker. Not a good thing for a car that is not currently in high demand.
Nissan is offering incentives because there are high inventories that it would like to dump quickly. This is a good clue that this car is available in large quantities and that the dealers would like to clear their lots of them. (If you look at Automotive News' inventory report, you'll see that average inventories for the Altima as of 2/1 were at 72 days, which is a large quantity of cars and explains why there is an incentive program at this time.)
Given the nature of the car, I'd shoot for a price of roughly $100-300 over invoice, less the rebate, plus tax, license and reasonable doc fees if customary in your area. (In other words, if you are eligible for a $1,500 rebate, then you should shoot for $1,200-1,400 BELOW invoice.)
You can look up both the invoice pricing and incentives here at Edmunds. Don't ignore any incentives to the dealer ("marketing incentives" or factory-to-dealer incentives), factor those into your negotiations. I don't know the spread on your particular car, but I'm going to guess that a price in the range that I suggested, combined with incentives, is going to put you perhaps $3,000 or so below MSRP.
Your ability to negotiate may be affected by local market condition, and will definitely be affected by your personal negotiation skills. If you have a lot of new car dealers in your metro area, whether Nissan or otherwise, then you should be able to get pricing like this IF you negotiate properly.
Note: You don't want to name a low price like this in the first few minutes of shopping, the dealer is likely to let you walk if you begin too soon. Instead, take your time shopping, test driving, etc. with the salesman in tow before making that offer so that he has invested time and effort in closing you. If you budge from your offer, do so only once or twice, and then in very small increments, to establish that your price is pretty well set.
In the meantime, I'd go get your deposit back, and start over again. You really should avoid deposits whenever possible.
This might be a little drawn out so I apologize now, but here's my story.
I am looking into purchasing a new car in a couple of weeks. I did send out "feelers" by e-mail to find the dealership that I wanted to work with.
Now, I can get employee pricing on the new vehicle - though my brother -in-law, so I don't need to worry about haggling for price. The dealership I want to work with has the car I want on their lot, so I'm good there.
But here come the questions-
How do I know I'm not getting taken on my trade in? I have tried posting to Terry on the True value forum... but he seems really busy over there. Is TMV for trade in's accurate?? If so I'm willing to go $500 below before walking out. My car is a 2005 with very low miles on it, so I would figure its not going to the auction. And this is going to be the deal breaker.
Also, the "doc fees" are $399. Is this something that should come into play or should I just expect to pay them since I'm going the employee route?
Any advice, tips, etc would be great!!! Thank you all!!
399 seems a little high for a doc fee. Closer to 200 is normaly reasonable but it depends on the market.
Edmunds TMV is sometimes very good and sometimes not. I think it is better then most other price guides but it is not perfect. It works well when cars have about average miles and when you are not pricing a car that is very sensative to seasonal changes. A convertiable in the northeast in winter is just worth much less then most guides say it is because they don't take into account the seasonal change enough. Four wheel drive vehicles take a similar hit in the middle of summer.
Depending on the type of car you have and where you are trading it in it might still go to auction. Depends on if that dealership handles those kinds of vehicles or not.
Terry will get back to you eventually just repost every once in a while.
Some employee/family/supplier deals (GM) the selling dealer CANNOT charge a DOC fee or advertising fee...............
Why bother with e-mails? Go to the main GM/ford/etc. web site a search for the specific vehicle you want. Locate 3 choices at different dealers then "shop" your trade and buy from the dealer who offers you the best trade deal !
As you will find out on a employee/family/supplier deal MOST dealers will lowball your trade anyhoo. So IMO its best to shop it around..........
Good luck and yea Terrys prob. off golfing or at bike week in Daytona (me too!)!!!!!!! But at least he can give ya a good idea on what your trade is really worth!
I'm not up on all employee plans, but I know Ford's for one doesn't allow doc fees.
As far as trade-in value goes, if Terry's not answering on Real-World Trade-in Values, try asking the group's opinion on the value of your car. There are a number of other posters there that might be able to get you in the right ballpark anyway.
So should I bring that up?? I don't want to bicker over $200, but I thought it seemed steep as well.
The car is a 2005 Jetta, so weather shouldn't be to much of a factor.
The salesman didn't see my car the day I went in (we took my wife's) but he told me to look at KBB and then drop it $2000....which really seems ridiculous.
Now, he may have meant private party----but i didn't ask, also, like I said, he didn't know if it was a beater or not, we didn't get that far.
geo- I am looking at a Dodge Charger R/T. My brother-in -law can be tough to get a hold of these days so I haven't gotten into those details yet.
The only issue I have with shopping around, which I may consider, is that this is the only lot that has the color, options, etc that I am looking for.
I think its been on there for a while, so I'm hoping they will want it gone enough to get within my trade in range.
from Mirth's suggestion, here is my car's info, in case any of you can help me out:
Location: Denver, CO 2005 Jetta GLS 4cyl - Grey 9000 miles leather, heated seats, moonroof, stability control, front/side airbags. monsoon stereo, automatic, FWD Basically - all the options, except a spoiler. No damage, and its almost as clean as the day I bought it.
thanks again for all the help. On this and from all the other posts I've been reading!
Kyfdx, I'm not sure what your semi-bobst method is, but I bet it is more inconsiderate than a pure-bobst.
The pure-bobst method is to walk into the dealer with a piece of paper specifying the car you want and the OTD price you will pay. If you don't hear a Yes in a couple minutes, then you leave. If your offer is too low, then you have wasted very little of the sales person's time.
I assume your semi-bobst means that you sit and jawbone for awhile. If your offer ends up being unacceptable, then you have wasted quite a bit of the sales person's time, and that is very inconsiderate.
How's that? One can't retain their integrity by offering invoice or lower and bargaining up???
The dealership is free to accept or reject any "offer" that is thrown out there. Some people may not want to leave $200 (or whatever) on the table. While I don't condone lieing on either side, I see nothing wrong with someone who wants to negotiate down to the last penny...who am I to say they shouldn't do business that way.
That said, my last purchase was very similar to yours in what I wanted to give over invoice(about $200). They were a little more "stubborn" than your dealership. And I did get up a couple times to walk out. But, in the end it was a pleasant buying experience...with integrity still intact.
The pure-bobst method is to walk into the dealer with a piece of paper specifying the car you want and the OTD price you will pay. If you don't hear a Yes in a couple minutes, then you leave. If your offer is too low, then you have wasted very little of the sales person's time. I assume your semi-bobst means that you sit and jawbone for awhile. If your offer ends up being unacceptable, then you have wasted quite a bit of the sales person's time, and that is very inconsiderate.
I don't follow your reasoning :confuse: Are you saying that it's "inconsiderate" to spend time negotiating prices because it waste some of the sales person's time? If so, I completely disagree. Cars are an expensive purchase and buyers are fully justified in spending as much time as they need in the negotiation process.
I agree. I think it would be more "inconsiderate" to make a salesperson a "take it or leave it" offer without giving them a chance to "work with you".
Make an offer close(but lower) than what you are willing to pay...then go up two or three hundred bucks to what you initially wanted to pay. That way the salesperson looks good to their salesmanager and co-workers. And I look good because...well... I always look good.
>>> After negotiations we were able to get down to a base price of $21,916, with $3,500 down, interest rate at 3% for 60 months. This is making payments $356.62, including tax.
>>> We were unable to complete the deal, due to dealer not having the vehicle of our choice on his lot, however I did sign the finance sheet, and gave him $100 deposit, so he could "source" our new car. He told us he would have it in by Friday (today), if not sooner. Well, here we are and he has no vehicle, and said he hopes to have one on Monday, but not sure.
>> They agreed to locate and deliver a car with only $100 security?
> We do not locate a deliver a vehicle for less than $500.
The dealer was negotiating on a nonexistent car. The $100 was not a deposit, but rather was meant to take the customer out of the market as was all the phony paper work. Had the dealer been able to locate another car (if they even tried), the customer would have been asked for the $3500 down. When the customer gets tired of waiting, she'll return to buy an in stock car, or so the dealer hopes.
Alright, here's the deal...sorry to keep you waiting...I know how it feels, as I've been waiting myself! It's Monday, still no car. I called the sales guy at 8am this morning...has not returned my call yet, and it's 12:45. I am tired of this run around, so I did some more research. I located the car we want, with all the options we want, and called a dealer, which is less than 15 miles away. I explained the situation to the saleswoman, and she is delighted to help us. She told me what invoice was, $21,170, and told me she would sell me the car at invoice, along with the $1500 cash back, making the OTD price $19670, which includes taxes and fees. I feel better about this deal. It's nice to know the car is on the lot. We are going to pick it up and do paperwork at 6pm. I'll let you know what happens after we get back, as I learned that things change pretty quickly! Thanks for all your help!
Sounds like you're moving the price in the right direction, i.e. downward. Good job.
Don't relax yet, though, the deal isn't done until it has closed. And you don't want to close until you make sure that the car and the numbers are correct.
-Firstly, if you are buying the car at invoice (good job, by the way), make sure that the out-the-door price is actually based upon a price at $1500 BELOW invoice (plus tax, license and a modest doc fee, if necessary) -- otherwise, you've effectively given your rebate to the dealer as a gift. It's not Christmas, so no need to leave anything under the tree.
-Second, review the window sticker of the car to make sure that it has all of the option packages that you discussed in your deal -- don't inadvertently buy a car with less content because you were looking so closely at the numbers that you forgot what you were there to buy.
If the car doesn't have equipment that you expected it to have, then you have been bait-and-switched, and you need to have them either give you the car that you negotiated for, or leave.
-Chances are good that the F&I guy or the sales manager may try to increase the price in some way, or sell you add-ons. Avoid those -- pay only what you agreed to pay, not a penny more. If they try to add any price increases that were unanticipated, walk out and return only if they agree to the original deal.
-Also, you need to confirm the invoice yourself, don't just take the dealer's word for it. Use the Edmunds's site and Kelley Blue Book (they should both give you the same results) to verify the numbers. Bring a print out of one of these (I think some here would prefer that you use Edmunds) with you when you go to the dealership.
-Don't sign anything until you've checked out the car and all of the numbers, and confirmed them to your satisfaction. Bringing a calculator is a good idea. If you have a financial calculator that can calculate payments, so much the better; otherwise, you can find financing tables that should allow you to calculate the appropriate payment for a given sized loan, term and interest rate.
-If you are financing the car, go into the dealership pre-approved. If the dealer has better terms, fine, but don't depend on the dealer to give you your financing -- always have an alternative. And his terms for financing should also be negotiable, so don't assume that his first financing offer is his best. (And whatever you do, check his numbers VERY carefully, there is a lot of room for abuse here.)
By the way, readers note: This price is about $2,300 below what had been negotiated previously by the sales guy who was kind enough to compliment our customer on her negotiation skills. Nice guy, I'm sure, but someone who would have cost her a lot of money in exchange for his platitudes. (That warm-and-fuzzy relationship doesn't come cheap.) If you think that negotiation only saves you pennies and creates frustration, think how frustrating it is to pay more than you had to.
1) Look at the window sticker and make sure the car is a 2006 and not a 2005.
2) Try and get their in daylight to inspect the Car in the Sun. It is very hard to see any imperfections under lighting or even under the service bay lights. You dont want a car with a dent, scratch etc and then it becomes your HASSLE to get it fixed even if it is for free. You will have to take the time out to get it done and deal with all the additonal departments.
Never take a car with an imperfection with the promise we will fix it later..trust me DTDT and its a huge PIA.
YOU GUYS ROCK! We are FINALLY owners of a new Nissan Altima...and got a great deal, due to all your knowledge and encouragement!
I must admit, I'm pretty excited (and proud of myself) for negotiating a great deal!
First we dropped the "loaner" car off at dealer number 1, and got my $100 check back. The sales rep. tried to keep our business one last time, by offering a years free oil changes! YIPPEE!!! PLEEEZZZZEEE!!! Nice try!
So we got to the second lot, where they were really helpful. Our car was ready, cleaned, filled with gas, and waiting for us. We went over the car with a fine tooth comb, no dents, dings, scratches, 11 miles. Reviewed the window sticker, and it did indeed have all the options we had requested, plus floor mats and splash guards...woohoo! So, inside we went to negotiate. They showed us the invoice pricing, which was $21,170 (which is what Edmunds and KBB stated). Other fees were Title fee - $15, Tire Tax - $1.25, and Doc Fee - $185. This brought the selling price to $21,371.25. Added taxes of $1270.20 in, making a subtotal of $22641.45. They tried to add all that extra stuff like extended warranty, life and disability, etc, but of course declined. So next they deducted our Manufacturer's rebate of $1500, and Down Payment of $3500. Leaving us with $17,741.45 to finance.
I did go in with my own financing through Capital One, Blank Check, with a rate of 6%, but once we were there, we qualified for 5.75%. So, our payments are going to be $339.01 for 60 months. We are really happy with this, as we thought we were getting a good deal at "the other place" with a payment of $356.62! Not to mention having a few little extras added on the car!
I really learned a lot with this car buying experience, thanks to you guys!!! I'm actually looking forward to making my next purchase...If I could just convince my husband that I NEED to trade in my Pontiac Montana, for that BIG fancy Pathfinder we saw tonight!!!
Good job. Just to put things in perspective (if I've got this right):
-The original dealer wanted to sell you the car for $21,916, plus tax, license, etc.
-Instead, you bought the car for invoice ($21,170), minus a rebate of $1,500, for a price of $19,670, plus tax, license, etc.
Which means you saved a total of $2,246, plus whatever additional taxes, fees, etc, that you would have had to pay on that higher price. If your sales tax rate was 6% (not sure if that's right in your case, I backed into that figure), then you saved an additional $134.76 on taxes by getting the car at the lower price, which would bring your total savings to at least $2,381. And I guess you got a few free extras to boot. (Free floor mats are typical, by the way, so it's good that you got them -- I should have mentioned that earlier, sorry...)
So very nicely done. One thing for next time -- check on the doc fees to make sure that those are typical in your state, as that's somewhat on the high side. In this case, I wouldn't sweat it, being that you got the car at invoice. (I figured that you'd probably end up at about $100 over, so you pretty much hit the target full on.)
Glad you had fun. You saved money, and got yourself a good story tossed in free of charge. Aren't you glad you negotiated and got the facts?
"One thing for next time -- check on the doc fees to make sure that those are typical in your state, as that's somewhat on the high side."
When I was shopping for my last car (2 years ago), I contacted several dealers (as I was looking at 3 different make/models), and found that the doc fees in my area were ranging between $200-$400 among different dealers. While this is absurdly high (IMHO), I obviously made sure to factor this in to my out the door offer. So, $185 sounds high to you, but on the lower end to me...but as you also stated, they do vary state to state.
2 car purchases ago, we had a dealer waive the doc fee for us, as his doc fee happened to be the difference between his offer, and his competitor's (either he charged it and was about $200 higher, or waived it and was $200 lower). When I bought my last car, the dealer tried to tell me that if he waived the doc fee for me and then a previous customer found out about it, they could sue him. I keep a copy of a printout from my state attorney general's office in my "car buying binder" now that states clearly that doc fees are completely negotiable. I pull it out anytime I get handed a line like that.
Congratulations! I shared your post with all the other hosts & Edmunds management so that everyone could see how cool it is when our knowledgeable members take the time to share their advice & experiences to help others.
If you're here long enough, you'll see it dozens of times - the car buying experience doesn't have to be painful! In this case it sure sounds like everyone walked away happy.
C'mon... get the Pathfinder. You know you want to
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
***Congratulations! I shared your post with all the other hosts & Edmunds management so that everyone could see how cool it is when our knowledgeable members take the time to share their advice & experiences to help others. ***
Me thinks Edmunds management should be dolling out some free "cotton" (read as t-shirts) for those members involved in this classic helpful post *nodnod*
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
You did GREAT..... And (IMHO) more and more dealers are going the way of the dealer where you bought your car. That's the power of the internet.....sharing information.
One year of free oil changes from the original dealer? Gimme a break....
PS.....Pathfinders are NICE. Be sure to reward your salesman with your repeat business, but still go through the same process.
You did GREAT..... And (IMHO) more and more dealers are going the way of the dealer where you bought your car. That's the power of the internet.....sharing information.
As far as I can tell, most (although not all) dealers are going to avoid discussion of the invoice unless the customer mentions it first, but will then deal with the invoice thereafter. It's one reason to begin with invoice -- this immediately lowers dealer expectations, and the first offer you receive will probably be much lower than it would have been otherwise.
I should also clarify that to "begin with invoice" does not mean that your first offer has to be at invoice, it simply means that you attempt to understand the dealer's overall basis for earning cash from the sale (a combination of invoice, floor plan charges, holdback, incentives, advertising fee reimbursements and sometimes kickers that you won't know about) when preparing your offer. On a car that is not in high demand, starting below invoice, and even finishing at a price below invoice, can actually work effectively. And remember that the term "invoice" is a bit deceiving, because these other sources of cash available to the dealer make his true cost a fair bit below invoice.
Also, avoid the trap of thinking only in terms of $X over/ under invoice during the negotiations. One thing some dealers do to counter this approach is to add pack to the invoice, so that the "invoice" you see includes extra charges that you really shouldn't have to pay, making that "$500 over invoice" deal more costly than it should be. Be careful that when you talk about "invoice" that you know the specific number that this should translate into. One year of free oil changes from the original dealer? Gimme a break....
Based upon one year's of driving and the intervals used in the owner's manual, that might amount to just one oil change. (You can bet that this would be interpreted in the dealer's favor once you've driven off the lot.) Free oil changes are the sort of thing that you might want to have tossed in to seal the deal once you've already negotiated your near-invoice price. And if you did, I'd negotiate the number of actual oil changes, not the time period or the interval, so that you can get them on your schedule and get at least the number that you counted on.
"One year of free oil changes from the original dealer? Gimme a break...."
There is no free lunch is there? I worked for a dealership where they said they gave "free oil changes"...the fine print says free oil, not the filter or labor to do it. The oil was recycled and delievered bulk by tractor trailer. Pretty cheesy.
Then the fine print states something like having to pay for an alignment every 3 months, and pay for tire rotations every 5000 miles - and all has to be done at their dealership at their prices.
When I was shopping for my last car (2 years ago), I contacted several dealers (as I was looking at 3 different make/models), and found that the doc fees in my area were ranging between $200-$400 among different dealers.
This is a good illustration of how these "fees" can vary by quite a bit, and how they aren't sacred cows, but are just line item from which the dealer tries to obtain his profit. Some states such as California put a cap on the fee, but really, it's just another revenue source to the dealer that is just as negotiable as is any other.
First of all, congrats on your new car. Hope your ownership experience turns out to be an absolute joy.
The financing part struck home, as I had a similar experience a couple of months ago. Showed the dealer the original hard copy of my auto financing approval from a local credit union, and the dealer was able to give 3.99%, without any hesitation, for 60 mths (down from 5.24%). May not have shaved a lot off the monthly payments, but it is still money in the bank.
Also, was upfront with the dealer, that I would walk, if they tried any of that funny "show me your credit card for good faith" crap. As far as I am concerned, showing up at their doorstep and am talking money is plenty of good faith. By the way, I did walk on a dealer.
Congrats again on your purchase!
P.S. I've owned 2 Pathfinders back to back for about 12 years (until about 2-3 months ago). Loved the 1993, wasn't thrilled with the 2001. Good luck with your Pathfinder if you decide to go for it.
I have not seen a deal like this one. Combination of rebate and low APR? That's a steal!!! By the way, here in Texas, doc fee is $50.00 and sales tax is 6.25% Good Job..
Actually my free tires for life program that came with my 2004 Mazda MPV sounds pretty good. I have to have oil changes every 5,000 miles ($27) and tire rotations every 6,000 miles($22). After that, it's air filter at 2 years, coolant change at 40 or 60k and then tune up at 100,000. All of which I would have done at dealership anyway while vehilce under warranty.
The OEM stock tires that came witht the MPV (Dunlop SP 4000)are ultra high performance tires that get anywhere between 22k-32k(from what I've read) We have 14,000 miles on our van...they look as if they may get another 10,000. Those Dunlop tires are $130 apiece ...but, ...I would have to pay for mounting and balancing. Thats "if" they stay with the OEM Dunlops as the replacement tire. They have to put a "comparable" tire on when the worn ones are replaced.
Who knows...the dealership may try to put on something from Pepboys...like a cheap 40 dollar Futura tire. Saying, "Well it is comparable young man...it's round and made out of rubber...ya fill it with air...you crazy?"
The dealer doc. fee here in central Florida is $499, some will negotiate it, but then write up the invoice with it listed, after adjusting the purchase price accordingly. It's like it has to be written that way. Another reason to use the bobst method.
-Chances are good that the F&I guy or the sales manager may try to increase the price in some way, or sell you add-ons. Avoid those -- pay only what you agreed to pay, not a penny more. If they try to add any price increases that were unanticipated, walk out and return only if they agree to the original deal
Please listen to what the F&I has to say about their products, most repubable dealers sell things that benefit the customer. I have had many clients who go in the office and say "I want nothing do not add anything on" and when its too late, they wish they purchased GAP coverage ect, ect....
Extended service contracts are good to have if you have a short Manufacturer warranty , but do your homework on those too. GAP insurance is a must to purchase if you are trading in a car and have some neg equity, or and are purchasing something that has low resale. Most, states are state regulate GAP so there is no mark-up its auto calculated. If you total your car, and even if you are even with payoff/ loan value, The GAP coverage will pay your deductable.
If you a breadwinner who has little life insurance, and savings, credit life will protect your spouses credit and keep the car from be a hardship because it will be paid off clear title.
I agree, MOP andSLop and Vin Etching for 295 say a big no to, but listen before you sign.
I agree on the GAP insurance. If you put less then 10% down on a long note then you should always get gap. If you trade in some cars with negativy equity you should also always get GAP.
Extended warranties are only good if you tend to keep a car past the warranty and not many people do that anymore.
When looking at buying a new Toyota is the "advertising fee" a legitimate fee and does everyone have to pay it? Is this fee included in the invoice? In other words, if I want to pay invoice plus $500 for my new Toyota would I be paying invoice, advertising fee, and the $500?
I agree on the GAP insurance. If you put less then 10% down on a long note then you should always get gap. If you trade in some cars with negativy equity you should also always get GAP.
Ditto. I know two people who got themselves into some hefty credit card debt thanks to a totaled car and no GAP. One had $5000 of negative equity and the other had (wait for it)... $10,000!
The insurance company declares the car totaled, they pay your bank, and then look up the value of your car. The difference comes as a bill addressed to you.
If those two people would have listened to the finance manager and paid $300-$500 for GAP, it would have saved them HUGE bill... not to mention many headaches and lots of credit card interest.
Comments
You should know this before you sign anything (would have been good to know before giving a deposit). Given that the car has not been delivered as promised, now is a good time to confirm with the dealer that there are no other fees involved. If they want to add something to the "deal," you can tell them no, ask for your deposit back, and shop elsewhere.
Secondly, you need to be aware of incentives available on the car, both in the form of factory-to-dealer payments and factory-to-customer payments. In the case of this car, there is $1,500-2,000 cash back available if you don't take the low APR financing (which being that the rate of the low APR program is 2% for 60 months, not 3%, it doesn't seem to include you.)
So here's the bad news -- if you are paying approx. $500 under MSRP for a car that is eligible for a $1,500 rebate, then you are effectively paying $1,000 OVER sticker. Not a good thing for a car that is not currently in high demand.
Nissan is offering incentives because there are high inventories that it would like to dump quickly. This is a good clue that this car is available in large quantities and that the dealers would like to clear their lots of them. (If you look at Automotive News' inventory report, you'll see that average inventories for the Altima as of 2/1 were at 72 days, which is a large quantity of cars and explains why there is an incentive program at this time.)
Given the nature of the car, I'd shoot for a price of roughly $100-300 over invoice, less the rebate, plus tax, license and reasonable doc fees if customary in your area. (In other words, if you are eligible for a $1,500 rebate, then you should shoot for $1,200-1,400 BELOW invoice.)
You can look up both the invoice pricing and incentives here at Edmunds. Don't ignore any incentives to the dealer ("marketing incentives" or factory-to-dealer incentives), factor those into your negotiations. I don't know the spread on your particular car, but I'm going to guess that a price in the range that I suggested, combined with incentives, is going to put you perhaps $3,000 or so below MSRP.
Your ability to negotiate may be affected by local market condition, and will definitely be affected by your personal negotiation skills. If you have a lot of new car dealers in your metro area, whether Nissan or otherwise, then you should be able to get pricing like this IF you negotiate properly.
Note: You don't want to name a low price like this in the first few minutes of shopping, the dealer is likely to let you walk if you begin too soon. Instead, take your time shopping, test driving, etc. with the salesman in tow before making that offer so that he has invested time and effort in closing you. If you budge from your offer, do so only once or twice, and then in very small increments, to establish that your price is pretty well set.
In the meantime, I'd go get your deposit back, and start over again. You really should avoid deposits whenever possible.
I am looking into purchasing a new car in a couple of weeks. I did send out "feelers" by e-mail to find the dealership that I wanted to work with.
Now, I can get employee pricing on the new vehicle - though my brother -in-law, so I don't need to worry about haggling for price. The dealership I want to work with has the car I want on their lot, so I'm good there.
But here come the questions-
How do I know I'm not getting taken on my trade in? I have tried posting to Terry on the True value forum... but he seems really busy over there. Is TMV for trade in's accurate?? If so I'm willing to go $500 below before walking out. My car is a 2005 with very low miles on it, so I would figure its not going to the auction. And this is going to be the deal breaker.
Also, the "doc fees" are $399. Is this something that should come into play or should I just expect to pay them since I'm going the employee route?
Any advice, tips, etc would be great!!! Thank you all!!
Jef
Edmunds TMV is sometimes very good and sometimes not. I think it is better then most other price guides but it is not perfect. It works well when cars have about average miles and when you are not pricing a car that is very sensative to seasonal changes. A convertiable in the northeast in winter is just worth much less then most guides say it is because they don't take into account the seasonal change enough. Four wheel drive vehicles take a similar hit in the middle of summer.
Depending on the type of car you have and where you are trading it in it might still go to auction. Depends on if that dealership handles those kinds of vehicles or not.
Terry will get back to you eventually just repost every once in a while.
Some employee/family/supplier deals (GM)
the selling dealer CANNOT charge a DOC fee
or advertising fee...............
Why bother with e-mails? Go to the main
GM/ford/etc. web site a search for the specific
vehicle you want. Locate 3 choices at different
dealers then "shop" your trade and buy from the
dealer who offers you the best trade deal !
As you will find out on a employee/family/supplier
deal MOST dealers will lowball your trade anyhoo.
So IMO its best to shop it around..........
Good luck and yea Terrys prob. off golfing
or at bike week in Daytona (me too!)!!!!!!!
But at least he can give ya a good idea on
what your trade is really worth!
As far as trade-in value goes, if Terry's not answering on Real-World Trade-in Values, try asking the group's opinion on the value of your car. There are a number of other posters there that might be able to get you in the right ballpark anyway.
So should I bring that up?? I don't want to bicker over $200, but I thought it seemed steep as well.
The car is a 2005 Jetta, so weather shouldn't be to much of a factor.
The salesman didn't see my car the day I went in (we took my wife's) but he told me to look at KBB and then drop it $2000....which really seems ridiculous.
Now, he may have meant private party----but i didn't ask, also, like I said, he didn't know if it was a beater or not, we didn't get that far.
I am looking at a Dodge Charger R/T. My brother-in -law can be tough to get a hold of these days so I haven't gotten into those details yet.
The only issue I have with shopping around, which I may consider, is that this is the only lot that has the color, options, etc that I am looking for.
I think its been on there for a while, so I'm hoping they will want it gone enough to get within my trade in range.
from Mirth's suggestion, here is my car's info, in case any of you can help me out:
Location: Denver, CO
2005 Jetta GLS 4cyl - Grey
9000 miles
leather, heated seats, moonroof, stability control, front/side airbags. monsoon stereo, automatic, FWD
Basically - all the options, except a spoiler.
No damage, and its almost as clean as the day I bought it.
thanks again for all the help. On this and from all the other posts I've been reading!
The pure-bobst method is to walk into the dealer with a piece of paper specifying the car you want and the OTD price you will pay. If you don't hear a Yes in a couple minutes, then you leave. If your offer is too low, then you have wasted very little of the sales person's time.
I assume your semi-bobst means that you sit and jawbone for awhile. If your offer ends up being unacceptable, then you have wasted quite a bit of the sales person's time, and that is very inconsiderate.
Or here.. before you get up and walk out..
semi-bobst story
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From what I can tell, you are the only person who uses the term 'semi-bobst'. You first used it on Nov 20, 2005.
How's that? One can't retain their integrity by offering invoice or lower and bargaining up???
The dealership is free to accept or reject any "offer" that is thrown out there. Some people may not want to leave $200 (or whatever) on the table. While I don't condone lieing on either side, I see nothing wrong with someone who wants to negotiate down to the last penny...who am I to say they shouldn't do business that way.
That said, my last purchase was very similar to yours in what I wanted to give over invoice(about $200). They were a little more "stubborn" than your dealership. And I did get up a couple times to walk out. But, in the end it was a pleasant buying experience...with integrity still intact.
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I assume your semi-bobst means that you sit and jawbone for awhile. If your offer ends up being unacceptable, then you have wasted quite a bit of the sales person's time, and that is very inconsiderate.
I don't follow your reasoning :confuse: Are you saying that it's "inconsiderate" to spend time negotiating prices because it waste some of the sales person's time? If so, I completely disagree. Cars are an expensive purchase and buyers are fully justified in spending as much time as they need in the negotiation process.
Make an offer close(but lower) than what you are willing to pay...then go up two or three hundred bucks to what you initially wanted to pay. That way the salesperson looks good to their salesmanager and co-workers. And I look good because...well... I always look good.
$21,916, with $3,500 down, interest rate at 3% for 60 months. This
is making payments $356.62, including tax.
>>> We were unable to complete the deal, due to dealer not having
the vehicle of our choice on his lot, however I did sign the finance sheet,
and gave him $100 deposit, so he could "source" our new car. He told us
he would have it in by Friday (today), if not sooner. Well, here we are
and he has no vehicle, and said he hopes to have one on Monday,
but not sure.
>> They agreed to locate and deliver a car with only $100 security?
> We do not locate a deliver a vehicle for less than $500.
The dealer was negotiating on a nonexistent car. The $100 was not
a deposit, but rather was meant to take the customer out of the market
as was all the phony paper work. Had the dealer been able to locate
another car (if they even tried), the customer would have been asked
for the $3500 down. When the customer gets tired of waiting, she'll
return to buy an in stock car, or so the dealer hopes.
Please update us, did he ever come through on the car? *headtilt*
Enguiring minds want to know *bobblenod*
Don't relax yet, though, the deal isn't done until it has closed. And you don't want to close until you make sure that the car and the numbers are correct.
-Firstly, if you are buying the car at invoice (good job, by the way), make sure that the out-the-door price is actually based upon a price at $1500 BELOW invoice (plus tax, license and a modest doc fee, if necessary) -- otherwise, you've effectively given your rebate to the dealer as a gift. It's not Christmas, so no need to leave anything under the tree.
-Second, review the window sticker of the car to make sure that it has all of the option packages that you discussed in your deal -- don't inadvertently buy a car with less content because you were looking so closely at the numbers that you forgot what you were there to buy.
If the car doesn't have equipment that you expected it to have, then you have been bait-and-switched, and you need to have them either give you the car that you negotiated for, or leave.
-Chances are good that the F&I guy or the sales manager may try to increase the price in some way, or sell you add-ons. Avoid those -- pay only what you agreed to pay, not a penny more. If they try to add any price increases that were unanticipated, walk out and return only if they agree to the original deal.
-Also, you need to confirm the invoice yourself, don't just take the dealer's word for it. Use the Edmunds's site and Kelley Blue Book (they should both give you the same results) to verify the numbers. Bring a print out of one of these (I think some here would prefer that you use Edmunds) with you when you go to the dealership.
-Don't sign anything until you've checked out the car and all of the numbers, and confirmed them to your satisfaction. Bringing a calculator is a good idea. If you have a financial calculator that can calculate payments, so much the better; otherwise, you can find financing tables that should allow you to calculate the appropriate payment for a given sized loan, term and interest rate.
-If you are financing the car, go into the dealership pre-approved. If the dealer has better terms, fine, but don't depend on the dealer to give you your financing -- always have an alternative. And his terms for financing should also be negotiable, so don't assume that his first financing offer is his best. (And whatever you do, check his numbers VERY carefully, there is a lot of room for abuse here.)
By the way, readers note: This price is about $2,300 below what had been negotiated previously by the sales guy who was kind enough to compliment our customer on her negotiation skills. Nice guy, I'm sure, but someone who would have cost her a lot of money in exchange for his platitudes. (That warm-and-fuzzy relationship doesn't come cheap.) If you think that negotiation only saves you pennies and creates frustration, think how frustrating it is to pay more than you had to.
1) Look at the window sticker and make sure the car is a 2006 and not a 2005.
2) Try and get their in daylight to inspect the Car in the Sun. It is very hard to see any imperfections under lighting or even under the service bay lights. You dont want a car with a dent, scratch etc and then it becomes your HASSLE to get it fixed even if it is for free. You will have to take the time out to get it done and deal with all the additonal departments.
Never take a car with an imperfection with the promise we will fix it later..trust me DTDT and its a huge PIA.
I must admit, I'm pretty excited (and proud of myself) for negotiating a great deal!
First we dropped the "loaner" car off at dealer number 1, and got my $100 check back. The sales rep. tried to keep our business one last time, by offering a years free oil changes! YIPPEE!!! PLEEEZZZZEEE!!! Nice try!
So we got to the second lot, where they were really helpful. Our car was ready, cleaned, filled with gas, and waiting for us. We went over the car with a fine tooth comb, no dents, dings, scratches, 11 miles. Reviewed the window sticker, and it did indeed have all the options we had requested, plus floor mats and splash guards...woohoo! So, inside we went to negotiate. They showed us the invoice pricing, which was $21,170 (which is what Edmunds and KBB stated). Other fees were Title fee - $15, Tire Tax - $1.25, and Doc Fee - $185. This brought the selling price to $21,371.25. Added taxes of $1270.20 in, making a subtotal of $22641.45. They tried to add all that extra stuff like extended warranty, life and disability, etc, but of course declined. So next they deducted our Manufacturer's rebate of $1500, and Down Payment of $3500. Leaving us with $17,741.45 to finance.
I did go in with my own financing through Capital One, Blank Check, with a rate of 6%, but once we were there, we qualified for 5.75%. So, our payments are going to be $339.01 for 60 months. We are really happy with this, as we thought we were getting a good deal at "the other place" with a payment of $356.62! Not to mention having a few little extras added on the car!
I really learned a lot with this car buying experience, thanks to you guys!!! I'm actually looking forward to making my next purchase...If I could just convince my husband that I NEED to trade in my Pontiac Montana, for that BIG fancy Pathfinder we saw tonight!!!
Thanks again!
Good job. Just to put things in perspective (if I've got this right):
-The original dealer wanted to sell you the car for $21,916, plus tax, license, etc.
-Instead, you bought the car for invoice ($21,170), minus a rebate of $1,500, for a price of $19,670, plus tax, license, etc.
Which means you saved a total of $2,246, plus whatever additional taxes, fees, etc, that you would have had to pay on that higher price. If your sales tax rate was 6% (not sure if that's right in your case, I backed into that figure), then you saved an additional $134.76 on taxes by getting the car at the lower price, which would bring your total savings to at least $2,381. And I guess you got a few free extras to boot. (Free floor mats are typical, by the way, so it's good that you got them -- I should have mentioned that earlier, sorry...)
So very nicely done. One thing for next time -- check on the doc fees to make sure that those are typical in your state, as that's somewhat on the high side. In this case, I wouldn't sweat it, being that you got the car at invoice. (I figured that you'd probably end up at about $100 over, so you pretty much hit the target full on.)
Glad you had fun. You saved money, and got yourself a good story tossed in free of charge. Aren't you glad you negotiated and got the facts?
When I was shopping for my last car (2 years ago), I contacted several dealers (as I was looking at 3 different make/models), and found that the doc fees in my area were ranging between $200-$400 among different dealers. While this is absurdly high (IMHO), I obviously made sure to factor this in to my out the door offer. So, $185 sounds high to you, but on the lower end to me...but as you also stated, they do vary state to state.
2 car purchases ago, we had a dealer waive the doc fee for us, as his doc fee happened to be the difference between his offer, and his competitor's (either he charged it and was about $200 higher, or waived it and was $200 lower). When I bought my last car, the dealer tried to tell me that if he waived the doc fee for me and then a previous customer found out about it, they could sue him. I keep a copy of a printout from my state attorney general's office in my "car buying binder" now that states clearly that doc fees are completely negotiable. I pull it out anytime I get handed a line like that.
If you're here long enough, you'll see it dozens of times - the car buying experience doesn't have to be painful! In this case it sure sounds like everyone walked away happy.
C'mon... get the Pathfinder. You know you want to
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Me thinks Edmunds management should be dolling out some free "cotton" (read as t-shirts) for those members involved in this classic helpful post *nodnod*
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One year of free oil changes from the original dealer? Gimme a break....
PS.....Pathfinders are NICE. Be sure to reward your salesman with your repeat business, but still go through the same process.
As far as I can tell, most (although not all) dealers are going to avoid discussion of the invoice unless the customer mentions it first, but will then deal with the invoice thereafter. It's one reason to begin with invoice -- this immediately lowers dealer expectations, and the first offer you receive will probably be much lower than it would have been otherwise.
I should also clarify that to "begin with invoice" does not mean that your first offer has to be at invoice, it simply means that you attempt to understand the dealer's overall basis for earning cash from the sale (a combination of invoice, floor plan charges, holdback, incentives, advertising fee reimbursements and sometimes kickers that you won't know about) when preparing your offer. On a car that is not in high demand, starting below invoice, and even finishing at a price below invoice, can actually work effectively. And remember that the term "invoice" is a bit deceiving, because these other sources of cash available to the dealer make his true cost a fair bit below invoice.
Also, avoid the trap of thinking only in terms of $X over/ under invoice during the negotiations. One thing some dealers do to counter this approach is to add pack to the invoice, so that the "invoice" you see includes extra charges that you really shouldn't have to pay, making that "$500 over invoice" deal more costly than it should be. Be careful that when you talk about "invoice" that you know the specific number that this should translate into.
One year of free oil changes from the original dealer? Gimme a break....
Based upon one year's of driving and the intervals used in the owner's manual, that might amount to just one oil change. (You can bet that this would be interpreted in the dealer's favor once you've driven off the lot.) Free oil changes are the sort of thing that you might want to have tossed in to seal the deal once you've already negotiated your near-invoice price. And if you did, I'd negotiate the number of actual oil changes, not the time period or the interval, so that you can get them on your schedule and get at least the number that you counted on.
There is no free lunch is there? I worked for a dealership where they said they gave "free oil changes"...the fine print says free oil, not the filter or labor to do it. The oil was recycled and delievered bulk by tractor trailer. Pretty cheesy.
This is a good illustration of how these "fees" can vary by quite a bit, and how they aren't sacred cows, but are just line item from which the dealer tries to obtain his profit. Some states such as California put a cap on the fee, but really, it's just another revenue source to the dealer that is just as negotiable as is any other.
The financing part struck home, as I had a similar experience a couple of months ago. Showed the dealer the original hard copy of my auto financing approval from a local credit union, and the dealer was able to give 3.99%, without any hesitation, for 60 mths (down from 5.24%). May not have shaved a lot off the monthly payments, but it is still money in the bank.
Also, was upfront with the dealer, that I would walk, if they tried any of that funny "show me your credit card for good faith" crap. As far as I am concerned, showing up at their doorstep and am talking money is plenty of good faith. By the way, I did walk on a dealer.
Congrats again on your purchase!
P.S. I've owned 2 Pathfinders back to back for about 12 years (until about 2-3 months ago). Loved the 1993, wasn't thrilled with the 2001. Good luck with your Pathfinder if you decide to go for it.
The OEM stock tires that came witht the MPV (Dunlop SP 4000)are ultra high performance tires that get anywhere between 22k-32k(from what I've read) We have 14,000 miles on our van...they look as if they may get another 10,000. Those Dunlop tires are $130 apiece ...but, ...I would have to pay for mounting and balancing. Thats "if" they stay with the OEM Dunlops as the replacement tire. They have to put a "comparable" tire on when the worn ones are replaced.
Who knows...the dealership may try to put on something from Pepboys...like a cheap 40 dollar Futura tire. Saying, "Well it is comparable young man...it's round and made out of rubber...ya fill it with air...you crazy?"
The dealer doc. fee here in central Florida is $499, some will negotiate it, but then write up the invoice with it listed, after adjusting the purchase price accordingly. It's like it has to be written that way. Another reason to use the bobst method.
Please listen to what the F&I has to say about their products, most repubable dealers sell things that benefit the customer.
I have had many clients who go in the office and say "I want nothing do not add anything on" and when its too late, they wish they purchased GAP coverage ect, ect....
Extended service contracts are good to have if you have a short Manufacturer warranty , but do your homework on those too. GAP insurance is a must to purchase if you are trading in a car and have some neg equity, or and are purchasing something that has low resale. Most, states are state regulate GAP so there is no mark-up its auto calculated. If you total your car, and even if you are even with payoff/ loan value, The GAP coverage will pay your deductable.
If you a breadwinner who has little life insurance, and savings, credit life will protect your spouses credit and keep the car from be a hardship because it will be paid off clear title.
I agree, MOP andSLop and Vin Etching for 295 say a big no to, but listen before you sign.
Extended warranties are only good if you tend to keep a car past the warranty and not many people do that anymore.
Ditto. I know two people who got themselves into some hefty credit card debt thanks to a totaled car and no GAP. One had $5000 of negative equity and the other had (wait for it)... $10,000!
The insurance company declares the car totaled, they pay your bank, and then look up the value of your car. The difference comes as a bill addressed to you.
If those two people would have listened to the finance manager and paid $300-$500 for GAP, it would have saved them HUGE bill... not to mention many headaches and lots of credit card interest.