The Future Of The Manual Transmission

fintail

I can't find anything online about that one, either. As you say, it is a choice.

Overpaid clueless bureaucrats don't need to work against the stick shift - market demands will fill that role just fine. Such a niche product already, that it has negligible impact on the overall fleet.

Living in a hilly congested area, I still have no desire for clutch work - ESPECIALLY for a daily driver. Maybe for a Sunday driver, but maybe that's what bikes or the shift it yourself without a clutch fintail are for.

busiris

Since buying a car with a manual transmission is a matter of choice, I really don't see how ADA rules would even apply. The disabled person buying the manual transmission car would be discriminating against himself!

I agree, but I read in the local newspaper today that eating allergies, such as gluten intolerance, is now going to be covered as a disability, and institutions such as colleges will be required to offer gluten free (and I would suspect peanut free, etc.) menus.

Looks like we are headed for a system where anything someone else can do, but you can't, is going to be a disability.

So... Since I am not 7' tall, and can't play in the NBA, maybe I can get on disability now...

Mr_Shiftright

that's kinda different. If you are offered no choice, and are forced to eat something that might make you ill, I *suppose*, one could argue....kinda...sorta...maybe...that the element of choice has been taken away.

morin2

As far as I know, a one-legged driver on public roads would have a driver's license restriction that limits him to an auto trans.

bpizzuti

No, he's perfectly capable of operating any transmission except one with a clutch pedal. That would include sequential manuals, DCTs, and CVTs as well as automatics.

And while some cars might offer a choice, others do not. The so-called "manual only cars" that I refer to as "snobby."

stever

Hand controls should be available for manuals.

My hand control for downshifting is the overdrive off button. And the cruise increase/reduce switch gets a lot of use too. :shades:

Everyone, let's dial the snark level down a notch please. Is there a lot of cabin fever going around or what?

tlong

OK gang, need some help. I'm at 130K on my '05 Acura TL and am starting to think about a replacement. Problem is I love the Asian reliablity but also love the German handling and driving. And those generally don't go together.

I had a '98 Audi A4, stick, manual, sport package, and loved that car except for the reliablity and costs to repair.

I tend to like smaller premium interior sedans, and I actually am strongly considering a manual as well. I'm thinking that I'll either buy new if a less expensive vehicle, but would really rather buy a more premium sedan that's 3-5 years old and save a bunch of the depreciation.

Here's the issue - of the cars that I like or might consider, I'm not sure what would be available in a manual:

• My first choice (just on looks) is the MB C-class. Can this even be had in manual?
• I don't like the looks of the Bangle 3-series, so that's out. I do like the looks of the current 3-series, but I have generally not been real excited about the BMWs because I don't think the interiors are that nice for the price. But I still might be convinced.
• I still could consider a used A4 but am kind of ambivalent on the looks.
• I do like the previous gen TSX but would like something a bit nicer if possible. Don't like the newer one at all.
• Is there much else available in a nice sedan with manual? Other thoughts might be Mazda 3 (love the handling, might be a little too cheesy inside for me), Jetta (new one seems pretty bland and cheaper than before, then there's VW dealers and reliablity).

I don't want something at the family sedan size - too big. Even the current A4 is getting almost too big for me.

I just don't see a ton of choices that are exciting me all that much. Any ideas out there?

stever

2013 Mercedes-Benz CLA-Class Sedan? Arriving February mid-summer this fall.

Edmunds review ("out in Feb.")

Mercedes site ("this fall")

Edmunds Detroit Auto Show coverage "(out mid-summer")

fintail

I am pretty sure the current C is auto only, but manual could maybe be had until 2010-11 or so, I think anyway.

I will believe a manual CLA in NA when I see it. MBUSA marketing/product planning idiots are really not loving the stick shift anymore.

stickguy

I was going to suggest the Volvo S60, but it seems that they no longer have a manual option.

Other than that, the Jetta GLI is nice, and that still has a "premium" interior. I do like the TSX, though it seems that you don't.

Manual Benz is a rare bird, and not sure they have a worthwhile trans/clutch set up.

Might be best just going with a CPO 3 series. the 2010/2011 models (with the 6 cyl.) are better looking than the early bangle models.

kyfdx

Jetta GLI is a good idea..

ateixeira

We should bookmark that and see who is right!

tlong

Thanks everybody for the suggestions and information.

I might even consider a hatch, which would open up the Golf GTI and maybe even a fully decked out Mini Cooper, though that's a bit smaller than I'd like.

I do like the style of the S60 but I'm thinking no more than $30K, so that's either cheaper car that's new, or expensive car that's old. So a brand new MB is probably not a good idea, either.

Oh well, the Acura TL is still going strong and I can probably go another 5 years on it if I need to. It's too bad there are so few manual options left.

hpmctorque

Will the CLA have seating for two or three in back? I suspect two, since it's a coupe, buy I haven't read or seen anything to confirm that. Or, is it a sedan with coupe styling, with a bench back seat? I prefer the flexibility of being able to accommodate a third passenger in back, even if it's tight, for those occasions, admittedly infrequent, when it's useful to have it.

I wonder whether the displacement of the C-Class 4-cylinder will be bumped up to 2.0 for 2014, from 1.8, to match the displacement of the less expensive CLA?

scwmcan

Pretty sure the cla is a "four door" coupe, like the cls. I think it is supposed to have a rear bench, but not 100% sure on that. It should be somewhere in the range you want to pay unless ( likely) Mercedes jacks the price up because it is a "coupe". I know up here in Canada we can get the new B-class at the $30,000 point to start, but I have a feeling the cla will be more upmarket somehow.

Edit: sorry home, thought you had asked the original question about $30,000 cars.

stever

We should bookmark that and see who is right!

My money is on Fintail. :shades:

Sounds like it's intended to slot just below the C-Class.

nippononly

There's always the Volvo C30, which is about to go out of production but has been available (and actually in stock once or twice) in a manual. But it's a 2-door hatch, so I don't know if that puts it out of contention.

I like the throwback look to the '60s Volvos, and that it comes in something besides white, black, and six shades of gray. And the stick is not bad, although not super-inspiring like I find Honda manuals to be. ;-)

Since sales have not been great, you could probably get a real bargain on one new, for any they still have left.

For wide availability used in a stick, in a model with a decent interior and decently fun to drive, I think I would look to the GTI/A3 twins. But I know reliability and the cost to keep them on the road after the warranty is up is rumored to be nightmarish. I have a friend with a stick-shift A3 which is about 6 years old now, she loves that thing, held up well in a couple of wrecks and keeps on ticking without a lot of repair expense, contrary to said rumors....

stickguy

another option new is the Acura ILX with the 2.4l engine. Basically a luxury model (with a nice interior) of the Civic Si.

tlong

another option new is the Acura ILX with the 2.4l engine. Basically a luxury model (with a nice interior) of the Civic Si.

I'd buy a previous gen TSX before the ILX.
I might have to go for a 3-series unless I want to get brave with VW.

scwmcan

I know it may not be acceptable, being American and all, but what about a Buick Regal, maybe even a GS, with how poorly they are selling now I bet you could get a good deal on a GS, and may even be able to get in under our price target, and they do have a manual as well. The is also the Verano turbo with a manual, but it may not have the handling you are looking for ( the regal may not either for that matter, though it isn't supposed to be bad, you'd have to test drive either if there was any interest there at all). I know it may not be what you are looking for though but just thought I'd bring it up, it is always good to remember all your options anyway.

benjaminh

tlong wrote:

"OK gang, need some help. I'm at 130K on my '05 Acura TL and am starting to think about a replacement. Problem is I love the Asian reliablity but also love the German handling and driving. And those generally don't go together. "

It seems like you've gotten a great and reliable ride from your Acura, and yet you seem almost eager to leave the brand. Just curious as to why? Just ready to try something different?

most (if not all) of these have already been mentioned...

Mini Clubman
VW GTI 4 door
BMW 3 series
Honda Civic Si
Acura ILX 2.4
Audi A3

Just looked up the price of the A3:

2.0 TFSI® Premium Plus: Six-speed manual transmission with front-wheel drive
$ 30,165

My guess is that a Honda or Acura will have the best reliability.

I know you don't want to go to midsize, but the all new Accord manual EX might still be worth a test drive. It's a little smaller than the last generation, and it would save you a lot of money:

2013 Accord Sedan EX
Manual Transmission
$25,395

This is fairly loaded, with moonroof, pushbutton start, 17" alloys, power seat, dual climate, side and rear camera, etc. That's a lot more than you'll get on the A3, even with the premium pkg. It's almost exactly the size of your 2005 TL. Car and Driver says a 6 speed manual 2013 Accord can go from 0-60 in 6.6 seconds, which is probably about the same as your TL:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-honda-accord-four-cylinder-manual-test-- - review

kyfdx

A lot of used A3s around the $19K mark.... but, if you don't want to take a chance on a Jetta.... then...

srs_49

What about a 2 or 3 year old Infiniti G37, with the 6MT? Although that's what I have, I am less than happy with the shifter.

ateixeira

Or wait for the next WRX if you can. Those are manual only, and the interiors on the new Impreza improved a lot.

bpizzuti

I'm pretty sure the next WRX isn't going to be Impreza-based. They're taking too long if it is.

ateixeira

I think Gunma is running at full capacity so they figure why rush?

Thing is, WRX sells at higher prices, so if they want profits, HURRY UP!

plekto

I have an alternative that might work quite well. You want a car that's designed and tested in Germany, but is decently reliable and repairs won't cost you your second kid in collateral?

I'd get a Cadillac CTS. Specifically a 2007 (first generation) 3.6 with manual. This is the best CTS to get, IMO. Sure, the new one is prettier and has a much nicer interior, but it also is a lot more money.(plus trying to find one in manual is unobtanium). 2007 was the last year of the first body style and it's also depreciated a lot. As in you can get one with hardly any miles on it for the price of a new Yaris.

Things to be aware of are to NOT get the nav system - it breaks a lot and is garbage - get a Garman instead. Also, get the sport package if you can. Lastly, 2006+ had an Aisin 6 speed manual as standard - the same unit they use in the IS250 and the new CTS. (they thankfully dropped the old school 90s era Getrag 5 speed).

The car is utterly transformed with a manual - it's very fast and agile.

bpizzuti

WRX costs more to build too.

I'm wondering if they're running into technical issues. The thing is still well-shrouded in mystery. Except for the 2.0T engine it's probably going to get anyway.

ateixeira

Well, the Forester turbo is out, and the take rate is higher than with the previous model. I think the pretty-close fuel economy ratings help.

bpizzuti

Definitely does, but they can't just drop that powertrain into the WRX and go, there would be mass rioting if the only tranny in the WRX were a CVT.

On the other hand, the way they did the suspension on the XT, you could probably lower the thing and you'd effectively have a WRX. Maybe that's what they're planning, base it off the stiffer Forester rather than the lightened Impreza.

ateixeira

It needs a 6 speed, I wonder if the diesel's manual can handle WRX power levels? Probably, right?

I wonder if it bolts up without too much trouble.

I've seen a video from the product planners that say the XT performs better than the base model (suspension, steering) but there's still room for an STi. I doubt we'll get it, though.

bpizzuti

It might be able to, but I bet it doesn't bolt up easily.

I saw the same video, they really put a lot into the XT, sounds like they pretty much made it a lifted WRX, which is what got me thinking. I don't think a Forester STi would ever see our shores though, can you ever see that segment ever warming to a pure rally sport vehicle? We're talking compact SUV here, not sport compact.

cdnpinhead

I'd get a Cadillac CTS.

I used to agree, until I noticed the relatively large number of people who endured complete engine failure resulting from excessive oil consumption. I starated out thinking that the people who were complaining were the typical nanny-car folks who thought that checking the oil manually was for "those people," but eventually learned that some of the people who check oil carefully and often were hit as well.

I still follow the CTS Engine Failure (or some such) board, and the pattern continues: low oil all of a sudden followed by engine failure. It's somewhat of a user issue, as many think that they're looking at an oil level warning as opposed to an oil pressure warning. I guess we could call them low-information drivers.

andres3

ut I know reliability and the cost to keep them on the road after the warranty is up is rumored to be nightmarish. I have a friend with a stick-shift A3 which is about 6 years old now, she loves that thing, held up well in a couple of wrecks and keeps on ticking without a lot of repair expense, contrary to said rumors....

Nightmarish? What rumors are these? I have a similar experience with a '06 A3 with 96K miles now to your female friend. I love the car and it costs far less to keep running reliably than my '95 Dodge did.

Only thing I've had to pay out of warranty for is a recirculation valve $400, and intake runner control module (reimbursed by Audi extended warranty).

I'd say the reliability is great, and to people that pay attention, Audi's quality control is obviously way above VW's.

Mr_Shiftright

My friend runs a Porsche-Audi-Mini Cooper repair facility and he says that the Audi is the most maintenance-intensive of the three---and if you can out-maintenance a MINI, that's saying something. :P

andres3

This is fairly loaded, with moonroof, pushbutton start, 17" alloys, power seat, dual climate, side and rear camera, etc. That's a lot more than you'll get on the A3, even with the premium pkg

Moonroof: A lot of people don't even like that feature, or would prefer the Opensky version of it.

Pushbutton start: neat gadget, but keys work better.

17" alloys: Even a base stripper model A3 in 2006 offered this.

Powerseat: Okay, this is useful, if it has memory presets, but it also weighs more than a simple manual moving seat.

Dual Climate: Again, Standard in even base model A3's back in '06.

side and rear camera Pointless and useless options.

No serious driver would pay more than $0.10 for these things.

A side and rear camera has no place in an automobile. Learn to drive!

As you can see, no premium package required in the A3.

andres3

I bet you $1,000,000 if you really grilled him about what he means by "maintenance-intensive" he'd admit on the stand under penalty of perjury that it means he just hates to work on them because he's either ill-experienced, under-experienced, or just plain thinks they are a pain in the behind to work on (which is true on a lot of things).

A mechanic really has to know what they are doing or they will get really frustrated working on an Audi, and even when they are skilled, may get frustrated anyway.

Takes 3 hours to replace the $100 recirculation valve, as an example. Now, some Audi dealers might try and charge $250 for the part, but....

Still, I'd rather have to pay $400 then get a transmission rebuild on a domestic at 60K miles for example.

stever

An audible backup system saved me from banging the rear fender in a rental car in Chicago a few years back. My brother tows a large pop-up and likes the rear camera. Makes lining up the hitch a breeze.

Finding all the toys on a manual transmission may be getting harder since manuals too often mean a base model.

andres3

Maybe some auto manufacturer will invent an app where you can put your smart-phone on the rear bumper and "beam" the image to your car's display via bluetooth or something. Saves the extra cost of the camera.

Also, if someone rear-ends you, that camera may be toast and that'll add dollars to the Claim amount. $$$$ That means way more $$$ for insurance premiums.

ateixeira

Magellan sells a backup cam kit for $150. You get a 10% off accessories coupon when you buy one, so even less, and it is wireless.

I like them because you can place you car within an inch. I can leave just enough room for the trash cans and still open the hatch without getting wet under my car port.

I will stop short of recommending a Magellan because their Nav *blows* compared to Garmin. Simply no comparison.

If Garmin launches a GPS that accepts a video input for a backup cam I'd buy 2 of them tomorrow.

nippononly

My friend with the A3 does spend what I would consider to be an absolutely inordinate amount to maintain the car - it seems to need major servicing about every 10K miles if you go by the book? She considers it worth it. I test drove the A3 when it first came out, and almost bought it, so I can appreciate why she thinks it is worth it. But I drive too many miles in a year to purchase a car that is that maintenance-intensive.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, no. He loves his work, and he knows Audis inside out and backwards, so I think he's right in this case.Besides, he makes a good living working on Audis, as few technicians have the skill, or the desire, to do so.

Naturally, your results may vary, and based on your reports, you've been very fortunate.

Let's be fair about and perhaps say--an Audi is not a car you want to buy a) out of warranty and b) with a lot of miles on it.

That's the advice I give people anyway. Play the odds.

stickguy

I am guessing, as with BMWs, this applies more to the big/complicated models, and not so much the A4/A3, that should not really be much different to maintain or work on than a VW?

I imagine there is a heck of a difference between working on an A4 2.0T and an A6 2.7TT! Or one of the V8s.

plekto

The issue with the synthetic oil in the Cadillac cars was due to three factors:

1 - The synthetic "oil" is really just an oily goo with anti-wear additives added. Minus those additives, it's as effective as dish soap in keeping your engine parts from grinding together. The level has nothing to do with it. How clean it looks doesn't either. How much life the "oil" has left does.

2 - The oil life sensor was designed in typical German fashion and accurately reads the life left of the oil. Not how long it is until you need to change it! When it reads zero, it's not time to change the oil, it's your engine is about to destroy itself as the anti-wear additives are completely gone/used up. ie - 0% protection remaining. This was an oversight at GM and GM started telling its mechanics to recommend people come in when it showed 50% life remaining.

The new CTSs after about 2009 or so have new oil life sensors in them that are calibrated to be twice as sensitive (ie - they read 0% at the old one's 50%). If you change your synthetic oil every 5000 miles or 6 months, your car will be fine. Since it costs about twice as much as conventional oil, it works out to about the same price for upkeep.

3 - synthetic oils respond very poorly to being revved hard and extreme heat. That's because they use up their anti-wear additives quicker and then there's nothing to fall back on. The oil looks clean but as before, so does dish soap. You have really little warning before the oil just cooks itself. Dino-based oils on the other hand provide some protection no matter how old they are, so wear will happen but catastrophic incidents are less likely to happen (and you'll smell very hot oil in most cases when you park the car). People who run at high RPMs (manual drivers?) are advised to consider switching to a semi-sytnthetic instead of a pure synthetic and change every 3000 miles..

note - a lot of this info comes from S2000 and RX-8 forums where oil problems are common due to the high RPMs. Most people are advised to run semi-synthetic or racing oil. The CTS doesn't rev to 9000prm, so normal attention to the oil is fine.

Note - my dad has a CTS and changed it every 6K miles and it's still running like brand new.

But wait, it gets better!

GM recently is advising that new "performance" Cadillacs such as the CTS must use their Dexos approved oil. GM's own genuine Dexos appears to be fully synthetic on the package but it's actually a synthetic blend.

http://www.gmdexos.com/licensedbrands/dexos1licensedbrands.html
note the Castrol GTX semi-synthetic in the list.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-first-generation-forum-2003/25- 2363-gm-dexos.html

I feel for the people who didn't realize this, but anyone could have reasonably figured out that GM was figuring it out as it went along and using the consumers as test subjects.

tlong

I know it may not be acceptable, being American and all, but what about a Buick Regal, maybe even a GS, with how poorly they are selling now I bet you could get a good deal on a GS, and may even be able to get in under our price target, and they do have a manual as well.

Appreciate the ideas scwmcan.

Personally I think the Verano is ugly in the back, and I'm not going to buy a car from GM which has very spotty reliability, plus was bailed out even though a failure. I also think there's a good chance GM may fail again, and since I keep cars 8-10 years, I need the support for quite a while.

tlong

It seems like you've gotten a great and reliable ride from your Acura, and yet you seem almost eager to leave the brand. Just curious as to why? Just ready to try something different?

Hi benjaminh,

I appreciate your comments. I like my TL quite a bit and it's certainly been very reliable. It's a nice car. But I don't find it giving me the passion that my '98 A4 (stick, 6 cyl) did. The TL is more like a sport cruiser - a bit too big and it wallows in turns. It's steering is ok but a bit numb. That's why I like the previous TSX as it's smaller and pretty agile. The new one is just too big and is pretty numb as well. The ILX is a tarted up Civic and I want/need a bit more refinement than that.

I'm glad Honda is finally turning it around a bit with the new Accord, but I really do want something a bit smaller than the TL.

I appreciate the list; I'm just a bit appalled at how little choice us stick drivers have these days. And I guess overall I'm less impressed with some of the latest cars, even though they have more electronics gadgets than in years past.

Probably I'd love a loaded Mini Cooper if I could get past the really small size. I may have to go out and drive one.

tlong

What about a 2 or 3 year old Infiniti G37, with the 6MT? Although that's what I have, I am less than happy with the shifter.

I drove the G35 when looking and buying my TL. At that time I felt the engine was pretty harsh and the steering wheel jerked when I went over a curving ramp in my area that has some pavement repairs - something that neither my TL nor the A4 did. I also thought the interior was not that nice for the price. I should probably check out the G37 to see what's changed. Is it my imagination that in 2004 I saw a ton of G35s in my area, but in 2013 I see few G37's, as if the G's time has come and gone?

benjaminh

tlong wrote:

"Probably I'd love a loaded Mini Cooper if I could get past the really small size. I may have to go out and drive one."

As you almost certainly know, the Mini Clubman is a slightly enlarged Mini. The back has more legroom, and the cargo area has more space. It's still small, but given that you're coming from a midsize car it might seem more realistic. The turbo versions of these are very fast, and yet still get very good mileage.

As you know, the Mini is engineered and built by BMW in England, and so that's really what it is. Seems like they have a fairly good reliability record.

Hope you'll test drive it and tell us what you think....

scwmcan

No problem tong, I had a feeling that they had reasons for not being on the list, just wanted to mention them in case you had forgotten about them having manuals. I haven't driven them so don't know how they stack up in terms of driving enjoyment anyway ( though the regal at least should be in the ballpark) and it doesn't matter since they are off your list for other reason which are valid to you.

andres3

I'd be curious to know that maintenance costs she's buying every 10K.

An oil change yes, and it should be synthetic, which costs more, but can last you 10K. You probably also have to put in a 1/3 quart every 2,000 miles or so to top off again.

Timing belt is every 75-95K miles. Oh...it's probably a good idea to get a fuel and induction system cleaning every 40K miles or so to keep the carbon build up from happening. Other then that, I can't think of anything out of the ordinary.

Brakes and tires have been my biggest expense really, but those are wear and tear items that depend on how you drive. When I griped about the expense of them to my great mechanic, he said "no one ever said going fast was cheap."