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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    edited January 2013
    I don't know, my mechanic knows them inside and out and says the newer ones are very reliable and good cars.

    Proper maintenance is required, and you should have no issues.

    I bet 90% of the problems with Audi's on the road are from neglectful maintenance, and/or from incompetent mechanic's and shops.

    I got quoted "Multi-ATF Fluid" for my DSG transmission service from one shop. Needless to say, I didn't get the service from them as it requires a DSG Oil; not a fluid.

    I bet there's a lot of issues with cars where the maintenance has been done by shoddy mechanic's that do things like put ATF fluid in the DSG transmission.

    Also, the car repair business seems to be filled with crooks and criminals. Over-recommending replacement parts, or at least recommending them way too early can raise your running costs considerably. Recommending things you don't need at all does the same.

    Find a good honest mechanic; that's the key.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Audi has improved over the last few years wrt to published owner repair and complaint numbers and even made top 10 in the last CR survey. Go back a few years and it doesn't go so well. You got a good one, so run with it. Most complaints when I looked and considered buying were electrical, so maintenance and ATF would have no effect.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Exactly. Audi's reliability performance has gone from dismal to merely bad and now is actually acceptable. Probably the biggest complaint is maintenance costs. Audi parts are punishingly expensive.

    Still, it's a nice driving and nice looking car and I see the appeal. I wouldn't mind having a new one. But not on my life would I ever buy a miled-up used one.

    As for association with VW, that's not a plus.
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    edited January 2013
    Ahhh yes, I got an A3 with barely any options. It was the options I heard that had the worst reliability (the open sky clips and electrical gadgets as you've mentioned).

    You get a basic simple version of the model and you'll probably be just as lucky. As you've stated, CR has now confirmed Audi has improved over the years to be top 10 material. It's been more than a few years, I'd say the QC became important to them starting around 2000. It takes awhile to erase old perceptions though.

    That being said, yes, I've left my rear windshield washer fluid spray nozzle non-functional as it's not important (and probably would cost a lot for someone to find where in the tubing the leak is). I've also been living with a center console that won't lock closed as the latch is broken.

    It's far from perfect, but when you compare to '95 Dodge that I had:

    Head gaskets, auto transmission, AC system, parking brake, o2 sensors, gas tank o-ring seal/gaskets, battery terminals, starter wires/cables, fuel pump, and belts that none of which could last more than 60,000 miles; it's a no brainer.

    Not to mention the Dodge at 65,000 miles had 1,000 literal rattles, while the Audi remains quiet, composed, and bank vault tight at 95K +
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's the parts that kill you on an A3.

    Steering gear (rack) $1350

    Xenon headlamp assembly (if say someone backs into you) $740 each

    ECM -- $980

    transaxle -- $6199

    So you really want a new one, or maybe a car like yours, one-owner, complete service history, low miles, etc.

    These cars will beat you up and leave you for dead if you go in blind.
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    hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Are there not good non-dealer sources for Audi parts, where one can get original equipment quality parts at lower prices, or OEM parts at a discount?

    My wife's '07 A4 2.0T Quattro automatic has 65,000 miles on it. It had problems which were dealt with under warranty, but none in the past 15,000 miles.

    Andres 3, have you changed the timing belt on your A3, and, if not, at what mileage do you plan to do it?
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Yes, many times a knowledgeable shop can go direct to the manufacturer rather than through Audi (say Bosch, Bilstein, or whoever)

    There's also a lot of good after-market parts of high quality, or better than OEM for performance, and I think a need for a replacement part is an excellent excuse to upgrade.

    I changed my timing belt at about 85,000 miles. They used to recommend them in the old days at 100K miles, but they were getting some breakages in the 90 to 100K mile range, so they've made the recommendation for a new timing belt a very conservative 75K miles. You can look at the belt and see how it is wearing and adjust accordingly.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Xenon headlamp assembly (if say someone backs into you) $740 each

    Sounds like an option to me, not a standard feature (doo-dads and gadgets).

    How much would my regular halogen light assembly cost to replace?

    Besides, I've heard I can buy Korean-made Xenon light assemblies for my A3 for around $100/piece.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    It's the parts that kill you on an A3.

    Steering gear (rack) $1350

    Xenon headlamp assembly (if say someone backs into you) $740 each

    ECM -- $980

    transaxle -- $6199

    To be fair, how much would these parts cost on say, a Japanese Audi (oops), I mean Subaru, or Honda?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I think a closer comparison would be Acura TSX vs. Audi A3, and Acura TL vs. Audi A4. I did a comparison a while back on a couple of parts and components, since we have a TL and an A4, and the Acura was somewhat less expensive than the Audi, but more expensive than the same part and component for an Accord. Wish I could remember the part and component, but it was a while ago.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2013
    I would say, on an out of warranty car, that comparing an Acura to an Audi, that the Audi would cost you 2X to 3X as much to maintain and repair.

    I've grilled a lot of people on maintenance for out of warranty German cars--I mean people who will share ALL the repair and maintenance bills---plus I've had a fair number of such vehicles myself, and it always works out about the same---$125/$150 a month to keep one on the road....IF....you take it to a good indie shop and ....IF....you are thorough in your maintenance...and IF....you don't do any, or little, of the work yourself.

    Given the pleasure I get out of a German car driven with elan and a manual transmission, it's worth it.
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    hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited January 2013
    I fully expect that maintenance and repairs are more for a German car than for an Acura, but I would have guessed ~1 1/2X rather than 2-3X. Parts are more expensive and maintenance and repairs more frequent, but labor should be about the same or slightly more per visit. I accept that your estimates are more accurate than mine, though.

    I think the German cars are worth the extra expense, but I could quickly change my mind when I'm hit with a big repair bill. I could avoid it by trading the A4 with, say, a new Accord 4-cylinder EX-L or Mazda 3 with manual. The manual would make the Accord kind of a rare duck, but would restore a modicum of elan. I know someone with a 2011 model of the Accord I described, and he loves it.
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    bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Looking that way. Apparently Motor Authority didn't get any CVT-ness from the turbo tranny.

    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1081914_2014-subaru-forester-2-0xt-turbo-firs- t-drive

    Apparently there's no rubber-band-ness at all in the sport modes. Between that and the low take rate previously, no wonder they're not bothering with a manual (I still think they should but apparently the ROI just isn't there). Only thing the CVT needs is a way to rev into boost before launch, have to see if it's possible to do torque-locking or if they've got throttle-cutoff technology hooked into the brakes....
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    dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Just bought a 2013 Accord with the I4 and stick. It is a hoot. I already have a 2007 that is similar, but the new one is a different animal. Much quieter and smoother. My' 07 is nearly silent at idle, but you could feel a slight vibration in the wheel. In the '13 you really have to pay attention to know if the car is running. Faster, smoother, better mpg, more solid handling (not necessarily better but feels more german). Loads of tech goodies and safety features - even reads my texts to me as they come in.

    Unfortunately no EX-L is available with the stick in the sedan (I bought the EX) - I think the coupe has that combo available. Also rear headroom is down a tad and the trunk pass through is gone.

    It is fun driving such a roomy (drives small though) smooth car and still having a stick. Wish they made a wagon and/or diesel. I can dream.

    As far as maintenance my 2007 has 160k miles. Only repair in that time was $100 for an o2 sensor. Front brakes original, clutch original. replaced spark plugs at 120k (they were fine but I already had the new ones so I replaced them). Replaced rear brake pads at 130k (long story - e-brake cable froze after hitting a rock). No need for a new timing belt as it has a chain. Change oil about every 8-9k (per maintenance minder) with mobil 1 0w-20. I expect the '13 to be about the same.
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    hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Lots of good characteristics. It's disappointing that Honda doesn't offer the EX with leather when ordered with a stick, but as compromises go that wouldn't be a deal breaker. Thanks.
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    benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Great story on your old Accord and new one. What you write shows why many people who own Accords keep buying them....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bless them for even offering a stick at all.
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    road....IF....you take it to a good indie shop and ....IF....you are thorough in your maintenance...and IF....you don't do any, or little, of the work yourself.

    Comparing any car to Acura or Lexus is unfair. Those two companies are like gods when it comes to durability and dependability (Honda and Toyota run them after all).

    Your right, the German cars are so fun you sometimes forgive and forget some costs. I forgot, at about 93K it was time for new motor mounts in my A3. That was expensive, about $700 I think. Also, I had a window regulator go bad, that's another $300. That's $1K in repairs I forgot about! Of course, I remember my parents Camry needed motor mounts around 100K miles...so... not too early of a death.

    Of course, an A6 or A8 will probably cost a lot more than an A3 or A4 to keep running.

    It helped that Audi sent me a check for the intake runner control module repairs I've done in the past (twice); amount of about $650 (thought it cost me about $725). They've sent me letters extending the warranty on that part to 7 years and 120,000 miles, as well as 3 other parts I haven't needed to replace or use yet. Getting reimbursed felt great. That's $650 I can potentially give Audi back on my next purchase!

    They did cause me trouble when I requested the reimbursement because I admitted getting the letter prior to the 2nd repairs being completed, and I should have gone to the dealer and had it done for free. The problem was my Indy mechanic had already done diagnosis and part order. They tried to use that against me to deny my claim anyway, but I made them come to their senses with some forcefulness.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    In general, we liked everything about the turbo/CVT setup except the way it launched from a standing start. Surprisingly sluggish is how we'd describe its launch—and seriously not any faster by the seat of the pants than the 2.5i model

    You must of missed that part of the Forester's review. IMHO that makes the CVT unacceptable. They've got the gimmick down to the point where it's a good gimmick, but it is still Gimmicky.

    It's like back in the old days with surround sound, and all those different gimmicky surround formats (hall, concert, theater, and such). All of them were lousy sound quality and Blu-Ray uncompressed Dolby Digital HD or DTS-HD blow them all away.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Keep in mind the turbo manual had the exact opposite problem. It was geared very short, and shot out of the hole like a rocket, but people complained that they had to shift by the time they crossed the intersection and about how gas mileage was lousy.

    One article said the turbo had a 10% take rate and the manual sub-model only had a 15% take rate. That means only 1.5% of Foresters rolled off the line with the turbo/manual combo.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My friend really got creamed on his A8----$6000 for a rebuilt transmission plus 14 hours of labor to R&R---ouch! That's tough on a $15,000 car.
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    My friend really got creamed on his A8----$6000 for a rebuilt transmission plus 14 hours of labor to R&R---ouch! That's tough on a $15,000 car.

    I don't have much sympathy for A8 owners. After all, he's probably in the 1% group. What's 6K to him?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well he's upper middle class. Remember, a couple of million in "assets" in the year 2013 is chump change.

    I'd be more upset by the depreciation on an A8 than the repair bills. :cry:
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,175
    edited January 2013
    Most who own those cars by the time they fail are not the original owner - more like someone trying to look rich cheap/fake it before they make it (good luck) who probably can't afford the maintenance, not to mention the repair. The running cost of generation or two old luxobarges is almost like a regressive tax.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    True...in France they call those "look rich for cheap" cars -- "baker's cars".
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    AWD + aluminum + flagship = awesome.

    Awesome ain't cheap, even used.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,175
    Especially when engineered to be complex for the sake of complexity.

    A8 resale value ranges from merely poor to catastrophic. There's a reason.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    Would be like dating that hot but trashy European exchange student back in the day. I'm sure it would have been exciting but I'd probably be paying for it long after she left. :D
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,175
    The masochist's choice :shades:

    In the case of Audi, also (according to some) developing a BMW style image crisis. That will make it all the more painful.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cute girl, cute accent (she was Dutch), and boy could she party!

    I was 17 at the time. She would have eaten me alive. LOL
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    or an S8 from the previous generation. It would have to be well kept, low mileage, and low cost though.

    I saw one on Carmax a few years ago for around 20K but it has high mileage.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,506
    . . .is almost like a regressive tax.

    Yea, verily.

    When the people who can actually afford cars of this sort recognize that no sane person should own one out of warranty, it's time to set up bleachers and sell popcorn.

    The phrase that pays, at least in terms of Audis is "breathtakingly expensive," as posited by Mark many times.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Cute girl, cute accent (she was Dutch), and boy could she party!

    I was 17 at the time. She would have eaten me alive. LOL

    Probably, but just think about all the cool things that could have been written in the epitaph on your tombstone...
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bet I would have woken up hung over, missing a kidney and my wallet. :D
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    bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    You must of missed that part of the Forester's review. IMHO that makes the CVT unacceptable. They've got the gimmick down to the point where it's a good gimmick, but it is still Gimmicky.

    IMHO I think there are three things that make CVTs unacceptable to you. Those would be the letters C, V, and T. :shades: :D :shades:
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    hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'd be more upset by the depreciation on an A8 than the repair bills."

    If I didn't know you better from reading your comments over the years I'd conclude that you're a candidate for a nicely depreciated used A8.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,175
    Those are reasons why early A8 and S8 are very rare today - keeping one on the road makes a similar era S or 7er look like maintaining a Lexus. Parts availability is sketchy, and I believe some shops don't want to touch them.

    Not all used higher end cars are bad, but you really have to be careful. There are some MBs for instance, say an 00-02 S600, that I wouldn't take for free.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,343
    Worth it. You only need one kidney.

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nice car the A8 but I really can't afford to keep a car like that up AND take vacations, eat out, etc. I don't mind stretching a bit to own a unique car but I'm not going to diminish my life for one.
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Being as my two favorite (thus far) car makers that I've owned in the past are using CVT... I guess I better get used to it.

    Does Honda offer a real automatic transmission option? I know Audi does.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Honda has actually never offered a real automatic transmission, technically. :shades: Their "automatics" have always been unique in that they're not constructed of planetary gearsets, they look more like manual transmissions with a torque converter and some automation added on.

    And yeah, they're still in the Civic, CR-V, and everything else. So far their new CVT is limited to the Accord. I'm assuming if it's successful there it'll be deployed to other models.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure they will to meet future CAFE standards. You almost have to.
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    bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Almost. You know the EPA's website actually says DCTs are capable of a higher percentage of fuel savings than CVTs? Maybe due to parasitic losses, some CVTs are using torque converters to get rid of the rubber-band sensation. But I did find that kind of curious.

    DCTs seem to be harder to implement "right" however, at least partially because they're being marketed as "automatics" rather than "automated manuals." The two have a different connotation and a different expectation when it comes to smoothness.
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    automated manual or a manual-amatic is a good term. Basically, it means a manual transmission that works with automation.

    Or in simple terms, a manual transmission without the 3rd pedal.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,798
    It's not a manual transmission at all, though. It's an automatic. ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    edited January 2013
    Oh.... but you have to shift the paddles manually in manual mode. :P
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,798
    Naw, just rev it high enough and they generally shift on their own. Or, stop the car and it will automatically reset to first gear. :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Naw, just rev it high enough and they generally shift on their own. Or, stop the car and it will automatically reset to first gear.

    That's true, but then, how often do you find yourself driving in a way that your:

    A) lugging the engine so low that you stall it out.

    B) revving so high that your bouncing off the rev limiter at red-line over and over again.

    As I've said before, I have NO problem with it shifting itself as long as it doesn't do so until the red line (every time consistently). I've seen some automatics that shift me well before the red-line and I get mad at that. That is indeed, upsetting. Perhaps the car hasn't been "trained" right, as I do remember the manual saying something about a "learning" transmission in my Audi, that adapts to your style.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    automated manual or a manual-amatic is a good term. Basically, it means a manual transmission that works with automation.

    Or in simple terms, a manual transmission without the 3rd pedal.

    Careful, that's not just blasphemy in the Church Of The Almighty Clutch Pedal, it's actually heresy, and could spark a holy war. :shades:
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "Or in simple terms, a manual transmission without the 3rd pedal. "

    AND without the gearshift...just those cute little dollhouse buttons. :P
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