Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Comments
You are correct, the Prius, new Civic hybrid, and the 1988 Subaru Justy all have a CVT (in addition to the Ford 500 and most Nissans...).
The Dodge Caliber has one, we talked about it in here earlier. It is programed to sound like a traditional automatic with stepped gears because in marketing groups people didn't like the sound of the engine racing for that long. There goes the advantage.
The Ford 500 went back to a standard auto trans, Saturn dropped thier CVT in the View, we will see how it gets implemented.
I don't know, I like being able to pick the gear ratio and make it stay there by not pushing the clutch and moving the lever. Third gear in my car is very tall and goes from about 20something mph up to about 80 mph. It makes merging a lot of fun.
on engine or over thr road speed.
I'm used to playing with the shifter with a Steptronic or Tiptronic setup and actually having an effect on the speed of the car.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I would argue that the NEED for a manual doesn't exist now since 92% of the population of the US does fine with out it. However, I like to be more involved in my driving than that, and a vehicle that doesn't have three pedals isn't as interesting to me, and I would be less likely to purchase it.
Am I a typical consumer? No. Do I care? No.
I don’t think I ever gave the future of manuals much thought until the EPA started giving Automatics better highway ratings than manuals. Still no big thing except the EPA started giving automatic equipped Accords and Civics better green scores than manuals ones. Not sure if that is still true because I haven’t been to the green vehicle site for the EPA in a while. Like most enthusiasts I ignored most of the signs that things are changing. When the CVT first came out I thought it was simply a novelty and might be interesting but I never thought it would make any serious inroads in peoples transmission choices. The Nissan Murano was an exception. Now they will be offering it in the Maxima and that was supposed to be Nissans sport Sedan. I can’t even begin to list all of the cars that will be offered with a CVT option this year. And the CVT is not a heavy or complicated transmission like a standard Automatic. Even automatics are now being offered as 7 speeds to improve fuel mileage and offer the engine some relief with more gear selection choices. I can’t see manuals with a dog leg going passed 6 speeds. The real eye opener came when the People in the US started accepting the Hybrid. I am no way a fan of the first Hybrids like the Prius and Insight but the Prius is doing better than I expected despite my doubts. The Civic hybrid seems to be going great guns. It is the move towards hybrids that causes the greatest concern. It seems as if the manufacturers are looking to hybrids to introduce to the American buying public a whole “new” direction for personal transportation. That direction at least for today doesn’t seem to include manual transmissions. Just because I see it that way doesn’t mean that is how I want it. I am just willing to go where the technology takes me. It is a lot easier that trying to swim against the current.
I have yet to achieve the mileage I get on my manual transmission car with its automatic counterpart. I also enjoy the interaction with the vehicle. I find cars that lack this interaction to be boring and dull.
I am glad your excited about new technologies, there is truly some amazing stuff out there now especially with respect to safety and driver assistance systems.
I know several people who have a Prius and seem to be very pleased, although none of them are getting anywhere near the mileage claims.
My current vehicles only have 5 forward speeds. That seems to be enough for now, although if I ever get off my bum and get the MazdaSpeed6, that is a 6 speed manual.
There has been some research on this, you would be truly amazed (maybe not) at how many people can't park. I wanted to post a link to a study but its not a freebee yet.
Take Nissan's lane changing warning system. This was a very useful device. An annoying buzz would alert the driver if the vehicle crossed a median line. This has many safety benefits (wakes up a sleeping driver, informs a driver that they are not using their signal to change lanes etc). What happens? The lazy idiots in the US embrace the useless gadget of parallel parking and demand removal of the actual safety benefit device from Nissan (presumably because all Nissan drivers are yahoos who can't signal and steer a wheel at the same time).
Excuse me for sounding non-technical but you are so right and that so sucks. That system was great and expanding. Lane departures are very well correlated with crash rate, so preventing lane departures should reduce the crash rate. This is a great idea, and it teaches the discipline to use your signals.
There is one question I do ponder when we discuss manuals here in these forums. Just how much less boring can an automatic be than a manual on city and residential streets? How impressive is a manual taking a corner with a stop sign on it? A posted 25 MPH downtown street can’t hold much thrill of the driving experience. The Freeway doesn’t give you any extra driving thrill with a manual because 55, 65, and 70 are simple cruising speeds. ( I will admit it is far more thrilling to have a manual in San Francisco when you are the second car in a line of cars at a stop light, waiting for it to change, and someone pulls up right behind you so you can’t even see their hood. Oh and while the hand break trick works ok the Frisco drivers will be on their horn one nano second after the light changes.) Now I live in the mountains and have a 16 mile winding road to work and the same going home. I can and often do shift two gears up and down going home, because it is uphill. So where do we as enthusiasts use these shifting skills to become more aware of our driving? Do we not drink coffee on our commute to work? Do we not have a CD changer? Do we not have cruise control? And do we keep two hands on the wheel more or less than our Automatic brothers and sisters? No we like manuals because once in a blue moon we get a chance to drive Ortega Highway at five in the morning on a Saturday. Manual drivers have all of the bad habits of Automatic drivers only there are fewer of us.
Maybe even more importantly, if manuals added to the driving experience to the degree we often hear espoused here, why aren’t more Americans interested in manuals?
Very logical, they are just unlikely to sell me an automatic. Since I am in the minority, that is my issue not theirs.
There is one question I do ponder when we discuss manuals here in these forums. Just how much less boring can an automatic be than a manual on city and residential streets? How impressive is a manual taking a corner with a stop sign on it? A posted 25 MPH downtown street can’t hold much thrill of the driving experience. The Freeway doesn’t give you any extra driving thrill with a manual because 55, 65, and 70 are simple cruising speeds.
Its getting to the cruising speed that is fun, or going from 5th to 3rd to pass someone.
( I will admit it is far more thrilling to have a manual in San Francisco when you are the second car in a line of cars at a stop light, waiting for it to change, and someone pulls up right behind you so you can’t even see their hood. Oh and while the hand break trick works ok the Frisco drivers will be on their horn one nano second after the light changes.)
Parallel parking on a hill in SF was one of my hardest regular tasks with a stick. I seemed to have mastered it alright though, if a little hard on the clutch at first.
Now I live in the mountains and have a 16 mile winding road to work and the same going home. I can and often do shift two gears up and down going home, because it is uphill. So where do we as enthusiasts use these shifting skills to become more aware of our driving? Do we not drink coffee on our commute to work? Do we not have a CD changer? Do we not have cruise control? And do we keep two hands on the wheel more or less than our Automatic brothers and sisters? No we like manuals because once in a blue moon we get a chance to drive Ortega Highway at five in the morning on a Saturday. Manual drivers have all of the bad habits of Automatic drivers only there are fewer of us.
Maybe even more importantly, if manuals added to the driving experience to the degree we often hear espoused here, why aren’t more Americans interested in manuals?
See this is just where my opinion will differ. If you don't get it, then me explaining it to you isn't going to help. Its fun for me, I like it. I like shifting gears and I like pushing the clutch. I don't live 2 hours from where I work because I think that is a bad choice. I can usually refrain from eating, drinking, and grooming on my 20 minute commute.
Most Americans don't like driving, they are lazy about it and just want to get from point a to point b. They should take public transportation but our country doesn't offer that option.
My goal isn't to convince you to drive a manual transmission, or even to get you to like one. I enjoy driving one and I am pretty sure I always will.
So far, I haven't been as impressed with the mileage of hybrids as I thought I would. The Prius I am most closely related to has yet to beat a 15 year old Civic 5spd with respect to mpg. If you are asking me which is more important, having a hybrid or having a stick, I would be very likely to go with having a stick. Small, light cars are usually pretty thrifty with fuel and don't have the technological surcharge associated with hybrids.
I am also more interested in diesel, specifically biodiesel than hybrids right now.
You don't have to convince me of anything. You just have to decide if the direction we seem to be heading into will include the kind of vehicles we are using today.
I think the vehicles we are using today will be around for the remainder of my lifetime. It will take some time before they are all in recycling centers or museums. By the time we run out of fossil fuel, there will be a substitute (alcohol, biodiesel, etc).
I think there will also always be a nitch market for manual transmissions, so I am not too worried about them going away entirely. Does that limit the vehicles I consider? Yes. Has it adversely affected me thus far? No.
In reading through this forum, you have succeeded in convincing me that you, personally, should be driving an automatic. The fact that you have to repeatedly ask these questions, it's obvious that you don't "get it", know how, or truly enjoy driving a manual. Not sure if and why you do.
As for hybrids taking over the automotive industry and turning our vehicle choices into equivalent of the Stepford Wives? Come on. You don't really believe that, do you? Visit a Mercedes/AMG dealership. Here in 2006, you can count on one hand the number of vehicles that have less than 200 horsepower. You'll have to take off your socks to count the one's with more than 500 horsepower. Even an automatic Toyota Camry now has 268 horsepower. Half of the 6,000+ lb 8 passenger SUV's I pass on the highway or pull up into the city have a solo driver with no passengers. And rather than getting hit with a gas guzzler tax, the IRS grants them a section 179 tax write-off. And yet you think fuel efficiency will be the stake in the heart of the manual transmission? Man, Jean Dixon is going to have to work hard to beat that prediction.
Please, by all means, relieve yourself of the pain of driving a stick. Get a slushbox, big CVT rubber band, or whatever. Load up on your Starbucks coffee and Egg McMuffin. Pop in the latest hip pop CD and throw in a cell phone call or three for good measure. You will be right at home with the masses. Happy motoring.
What do you predict will save the slide of the manual in this country? Just for kicks tell me if you "believe" there will be more manuals in 20 years. Please just a prediction? All of those big HP SUVs and Mercedes? How many of them are manual now? While I have debated this issue for some time with several people in here I have "never" suggested they give up their manual. Ask Nippon, a died in the wool manual driver. Even the people I disagree with most I have not suggested that they sell their manual just because the numbers are decreasing. I have presented my scenario for what I consider a bleak future for the manual over the next 30 years.
Now I suppose you must be an expert on either manuals or my abilities or desire to drive a manual, so tell me about the last time you took the transmission out of you car and replaced the throw out bearing? Do you know what the shifting fork looks like in your transmission? I love rock crawling and I don't happen to do it with a liquid pumper. I have pulled my share of manuals out and put them back in, have you? Yes I know, I am a wrencher and I look at cars as machines and nothing more. One machine part is pretty much like another and I can neither love nor hate one. I can like the way they work and the ease of repair. But I can't be anthropomorphic about it so I can't get upset if they are replaced by something else. Doesn't make sense to me.
However I might feel about manuals doesn't change the fact that manuals are a minority in the transmission world and in the US they are becoming more of one every day. As such things as CVT, seven speed automatics, SMGs and DSGs, Paddle shifters are introduced what do you think that does for the chances of the manual? No one would take away our choice of what we want to buy and drive in this country? Try buying a New Diesel passenger car in California. But if my questions bother you ignore them and don't worry about the percentage of Hybrid cars or groups like CAFE and CARB. They will look out for your interest I am sure. Oh wait, I am sorry, if I don't talk about these things they won't happen and things will go along just as they are. forgive me. :confuse:
I will admit it is passion like Nippons, Habitat and yours that will keep manuals going for a long time. It is just that I see a technological future rushing at us that I can't see being stopped by a handful of enthusiasts standing their ground and shaking their collective fists and yelling, that is enough. So once again, you tell us how manuals are going to regain market share over the next 20 years. I will be interested to hear and believe me read and consider every word of you logic rather than judge you as a person.
One point of view is from those who insist that they will always be able to get some sort of vehicle with a traditional manual transmission featuring 3 pedals. Well, yes, certainly there will be cars of some sort or another available that way for a long time.
The other perspective, is that fewer and fewer people are going to buy manual transmissions therefore fewer and fewer cars will be available with one. This is also a certainty.
I see enough of us out here that there will continue to be a percentage of cars built with gas pedals, clutch pedals and brake pedals. If costs were to rise the manual tranny's might be done but I don't see why that would happen.
If anything a slushbox costs more to make and install. Eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Eh, cool! SO are we done? This thread is closed? :P
Almost nobody learns how to drive in a manual tranny automobile anymore. I mean in driver's ed classes and the like. I personally think that a lot of the "anti manual" attitude is because of many, many people who have never experienced the joy of a good stick shift automobile.
Of course, at Honda I am left with the option of Element, a vehicle I rather like for lots of reasons, but just look at the very crappy fuel economy: 21/24. And geez, the automatic makes 21/26! Oh grok!
I checked around. In the world of manual shift AWDs, I am left with the rather unimpressive and aged Escape XLS, which you will NEVER EVER find at a dealer in California, and the Hyundai Tucson, with the pathetic little 2.0 hauling around more than 3500 pounds of car. No thanks. :-(
Thank goodness, if I want a honkin' V-6, trucky handling and 18 mpg, I still have lots of choices, including XTerra and FJ Cruiser. :lemon:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Please consider the Subaru Outback. I believe the Outback is available in the 250 hp/5speed manual combination. The base model Outback with the 2.5l 165hp/5speed is a little pokey but does fine.
"as long as companies think that they can sell vehicles with manual tranny's they will make them." :confuse: I guess Honda doesn't think manuals are worth building for a CR-V.
On a serious note my friend I understand how you feel. Honda and Toyota are two major forces in the American auto industry but from listening to many of these posts they simply would never stop making manuals available in vehicles people are interested in. You could do as some have suggested and look at a vehicle you are not interested in because it has the right transmission. But that doesn't change the fact that a vehicle you are interested in made by a company you respect no longer offers the option you want in the car you want. I would like to have the option of getting a small diesel rather than a Hybrid but my State isn't allowing that choice either. I am sure you will work it out because you always have. Knowing your stand on manuals I know you aren't going to move over to the dark side. I doubt if you want to pay as much or more for an outback as you would for a CR-V or Rav4 but you might. I know you aren’t a Ford fan but doesn’t the Escape come with a manual? It is a bit more in the RAV4 or CR-V class.
The only fear you have to consider now is that by mentioning this fact on the CR-V and putting it out in the public you might be labeled as Anti-Manual. You are not supposed to see what is happening and heaven forbid you mention it. (but then, sometimes things just have to be said.) :confuse:
Not only would you risk going to slushbox big box-land, you would also risk what you know to be true...that Subaru's are body-designed by the Subaru engineers using their late-model Etch-a-Sketches.
Thankfully big boys Scion, Suzuki and Kia all continue to keep the manual transmission produced and going. Not only that they realize that a true car enthusiast would like a car with some body design integrity to go with that 5-speed.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Lighten up on redsoxgirl. I had the same reaction when I saw the post of yours she was responding to:
"There is one question I do ponder when we discuss manuals here in these forums. Just how much less boring can an automatic be than a manual on city and residential streets? How impressive is a manual taking a corner with a stop sign on it? A posted 25 MPH downtown street can’t hold much thrill of the driving experience. The Freeway doesn’t give you any extra driving thrill with a manual because 55, 65, and 70 are simple cruising speeds."
The fact that you drive a manual or can build one in your garage doesn't mean B.S. when you keep throwing in subjective comments/opinions like the ones above and expect them to be taken as some objective statement of fact. What apparantly excites you in taking an engine apart wouldn't give me a goosebump if I did it on the North Pole. And I think watching World Cup soccer is about as thrilling as watching the friggin grass grow. But I realize that if I state those opinions as a question/comment to the effect of "why would anyone do it or watch it?", I'm going to elicit some pretty strong negative responses.
So maybe if you stuck to one point and didn't keep contradicting yourself or vascilating between objective facts and YOUR subjective opinions, you would have to keep reposting and recontradicting and reresponding. Just a thought.
I still had to laugh at her post. It was so full of meaningless emotion because I dared to mention that there is very little objective difference between a car cruising down the highway in a manual or automatic at 65 or 70 MPH. There is no reason to avoid such questions because we are talking about "MACHINES". Like your feeling for my fondness for taking apart things to see how they work is worthless I can see no earthly reason to take one bit of offense when someone questions the worth of one type of transmission over another. Give me a break, these things are not related to us by blood. Questioning a manual transmission isn't like questioning the abilities of someone's mother or their child. We didn't make them we bought them and they were bought from someone else that made them out of rubber, metal, and fluids. That is all they are nothing more. Nothing to get your, in this case her, feelings in a twit about. I didn't attack her, and I haven't attacked you or made reference to you personally. (other than to place you firmly on the side of manuals with Nippon and some others.) I never asked you to give up your favorite transmission or your favorite car. These forums are simply for entertainment and discussion. I try to leave the personal attacks out and if I slip, I will apoligise. But thank you for you suggestion. I have said manual transmissions have several hurdles to face and one might be hybrids. If you don't think they do, that is your opinion. One of many in here. (One question just for kicks? Did you believe you needed to chastise me in this forum? And if so did you believe it would be effective?)Remember this is all in fun isn't it?
I also think there are a number of people that play devil's advocate for the sake of conversation, so sometimes I'm not even sure an opinion is genuine.
Based upon your measuring stick, there would be very little objective difference between a $15,000 Ford Focus and a $140,000 911 Turbo cruising down the highway at 65 or 70. Not by my metric. See, different "opinions" of something you would define as objective fact.
Maybe because driving a stick is second nature to me, I don't ever consider it a burden. But under a lot of driving situations, it's a lot more fun and just (subjectively) feels better to be able to row my own. Even if I had to put up with 10,000 miles of commuting a year to get 100 miles of row your own fun, I'd wouldn't see any reason to get an automatic. Hell, I've been known to pay $100+ for the privilege of carrying a 30 lb bag over my shoulder for 4+ miles walking up and down hills just to get one or two shots that look remotely like the ones Tiger Woods gets paid millions to make every week.
I certainly don't think I've "chastised" you for having your own opinions. I've challenged the appropraiteness of stating your opinions as objective facts, especially when they contradict mine. For example, your previous statements regarding SMG's and DSG's vs. "dog-leg" manuals (no chastising there, right?). Whatever your opinion is about what you would rather drive is fine. Same goes for me. But there is no "fact" that makes one universally and objectively superior to another on US roads.
It is my opinion that the manual is here to stay, at least in sports cars and sporty sedans. Fewer drivers, perhaps, but things go in funny cycles. We now have about 10 times as many roadster options as there were 15 years ago, after they fell out of favor from their heyday 30 years ago. At some point, we may all be carrying transponders and simply need to say "beam me up Scotty" to get from point A to B. At that point, I'll concede.
And just to be clear, by my measuring stick there would be no difference between cruising down the highway in a $140,000 Porche with a manual or a $140,000 automatic, not objectively. No rowing required to cruise. That is how the statement was made and that is how I intended it.
But just look at sporty cars - the take rate on a manual in a Miata is well over 50%, and stuff like the WRX is at least half manual shift as well. Sporty cars will keep the manual around for a while, but what I fear will be the next major casualty in the manual extinction is the econocars. Little commute-mobiles have until now always been sold as manuals because it was cheaper by $600-1000, and price counts a lot in that segment. But as autos get cheaper (especially the dreaded CVTs) and price comes down, we may see them leave that segment forever. Which will be a blow to me - I guess I will have to spend more on something genuinely sporty to drive to work in, just so I can get a manual shift.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It was you that put me on the track of where hybrids are heading transmission wise as well as the story on the Maxima with the CVT. So the disdain some of the more passionate manual drivers have for me in this forum is partially you fault. :P Oh well, but I like talking to you anyway.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The Prius and other cars (Toyotas and non-Toyotas like the Ford Escape) using Toyota's HSD or something similar don't have a transmission at all, despite being widely mis-reported to use a CVT. The electric motor IS the "transmission" in the technical sense that it varies the amount of power from the gas engine that it sends to the wheels, and therefore how fast they go. In practice, it sounds and acts a lot like a CVT, which I think is where that misapprehension came from.
So yes, as hybrids take off, it is highly unlikely that we will see new ones introduced with a manual like the early Honda hybrids were. But I don't think we will see hybrids permeate the market either - I think diesel and hybrid will race neck and neck to eventually control perhaps 50% of the market, by which time we will see other hydrogen-related powertrains taking some portion of the market as well.
And of course, lots of diesel-powered cars offer manual shifters today. Whether they continue to do so in the future is open to debate....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But if you are correct and Diesels and hybrids split 50 percent of the market we know 25 percent of that portion will not be manuals.
Sure. The Altima has been Nissan's 4DSC since it got the VQ35, and the Maxima became the cruiser for people who want something livelier than an Avalon but don't want to spring for a G35 or TL. If I couldn't drive stick for some reason, I'd take a CVT if I could program the computer to operate it the way I like (make the "gas pedal" a linear rpm controller).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Same thing.
Not only would you risk going to slushbox big box-land, you would also risk what you know to be true...that Subaru's are body-designed by the Subaru engineers using their late-model Etch-a-Sketches."
Are you kidding me? When was the last time you looked at Subarus? The past two or three generations of Legacy/Outback models have been ANYTHING but designed with "Etch-a-Sketches." The current Legacy has one of the most attractive bodies around...and it's offered with a range of engines (three) and transmissions (two) and all have AWD.
Suffice this one to say that I am so glad that there are more choices for body design besides Subaru out there. Eeek.
If your car is mechanically sound and doesn't look good it doesn't work for this padre. Subaru's don't work for me...not even close.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Suffice this one to say that I am so glad that there are more choices for body design besides Subaru out there. Eeek.
If your car is mechanically sound and doesn't look good it doesn't work for this padre. Subaru's don't work for me...not even close.[/b]
Absolutely...looks are subjective. But you're the first person I've heard of who thinks the current Legacy is ugly. I find its design to be modern and attractive and hardly anything that could be described as begin designed by an Etch-o-sketch. The car I'm looking at could be European, belying its Japanese origin.
What do YOU find to be attractive in the under $30k range?
I like the 2007 Kia Rio, the 2006 Scion xA and, my current front-runner, the 2007 Suzuki SX4.
Ya want to know the truth, I find more design integrity in the 1999 Kia Sephia than the entire current stable of Subaru automobiles. Don't snort that coffee up your nose digesting that one.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I still don't know what I am going to get for a sedan. I think I'm just going to fix the hoopty and not worry about it right now.
The SX4 is firmly up at the top of my futures list, though. I still want one.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I've looked at sites such as volvo.com and found they offer manual station wagons in Europe that are offered in the US only as automatics. Volvo does have a program to purchase their vehicles overseas.
My question is, does anyone know if it's possible to use a manufacturers overseas purchasing program to purchase vehicle models with manual transmissions that are only offered as automatics in the US?
TIA
Phil