Finally found a manual transmission used car for one of my kids (age=17), after searching far and wide for about 4 weeks. He really wanted a manual, having been contaminated by my training him on it.
But, when I talked about how it will be even harder to find a manual the next time he is looking for a used car, even he felt that this will be less of an issue for him as time goes on. This is because of the recent advent of 5-6 speed automatics, CVTs, and DSGs and also because of the minimal mpg difference in newer models as well as the "design for racing" mentality that seems to rule manuals now. In his price range we were looking at '98 and earlier cars...the advatages of manuals were much more apparent back then.
Where is all the growth in auto sales going to be in the next few years? In India and China, that's where. And at least three (and maybe more) of the car companies in those countries are deadly serious about selling cars in the U.S. in the 5-10-year timeframe. And since those are lower-priced bargain models designed with an eye to emerging markets, I think we can count on manuals being around for quite a while. Which I think may well prompt competing automakers to continue offering manuals.
I will certainly continue to buy exclusively manuals until they are totally unavailable. I am trying to warm up to DGSs a little if/when the day comes that no-one sells manuals any more. So far it isn't working....
I am somewhat encouraged that when Toyota recently redesigned the most popular car in America, it continued to offer a 5-speed manual, and that in fact there are a few out there in dealer stock, ready for purchase.
I was at a local consignment lot last weekend, and was pleasantly surprised to find that there were a large number of used cars with manuals available, mostly in sporty cars and smaller econoboxes, but intriguingly including a full-size Dodge Ram. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'd like to throw my opinions out there on some of the statements: In the market place today more than 90 percent of the population have decided the manual is not a necessary part of the tool they are buying. Can that be denied? No, can't be denied. But it has been that way for 20 years and we seem to be at some kind of level in this country. In the rest of the world, manuals are dominant.
On skid control...I have that on my stick shift and it has made no difference to the transmission. Since mine is a FWD car, it has actually helped control the torque steer. In my opinion, skid control is a non-factor in relation to transmission choice.
...how do you predict the manual will stand up against the present trend of automation in the name of safety? How will it stand up in the quest for fuel economy and hybrid drive or even EV vehicles? Automation for safety-see above. You cannot convince me that an automatic is safer. Fuel economy- an automatic transmission is heavier, it always will be. Weight is the biggest single factor in mileage. Gearing is certainly a factor and in the US many manuals seem to be geared for performance not mileage. They can equally be geared for mileage. The EPA 'rewards' an automatic simply based on its pre-set shifts. Hybrids and EV vehicles may be a part of the future in improving mileage but they are not the whole future. They don't work in larger vehicles and diesel appears to be equally beneficial in improving mileage- and works fine with a manual.
Where will the future defenders of tradition verses technology come from? I guess the same place the current defenders of tradition come from??
You tell my why more than 90 percent of the market in the US drives automatics? I don't want to mud-sling but because it is easier and 90% of people want things to be easy. Again, the US is not the only car-market and is 50% behind the rest of the world in mileage achieved, a standard we may have to address.
You tell me why two of the most dependable manufacturers sold in the US today stopped making manuals available Not sure who you are referring to. I'm not aware of any manufacturer that does not make manuals available. If you are referring to the RAV-4 and the CRV, I would say only that they were pretty unusual in the SUV segment by ever having stick shifts. The Camry and Accord both offer manuals.
Like another poster said earlier I wouldn't want to have to turn to a german car simply because the car of my choice didn't come in a manual. ? If you want an SUV the Germans can't help you. If you want a small car, they all offer stick. If you want a sports car, the Corvette offers a manual as well as Porsche. If you want a family car, you can get it in stick from Germany, Japan or the U.S.
In summary, I would say that the new developments in DSG/ SMG etc are more a threat to the traditional automatic than they are to the traditional stick shift.
Finally 10% of the approximately 13 million vehicles sold in the US is still a large number of manuals.
Food for thought - easier and more accepted does not mean better.
It would be better for our health as a country if people took the stairs instead of elevators for 4 floors or less. We would save energy, save time waiting for an elevator and people would be in better shape. But it is easier to take the elevator so that is what 90+ percent of the people do.
Maybe we should eliminate stairs because they are used so rarely by a bunch of "tradionalists". Buildings would then have more space for offices etc.
It is also better for people to stay in shape, but it is easier to eat cheetos and watch TV.
I don't doubt that the manual will be a major player in the third world countries that my friend Nippon mentioned. But if hybrids are the future in the US that won't be the case here.
I have never thought that the reason for automatics in the US was for any other reason other than it was easier. But I have thought that the mass market will be the factor that effects the choices more than 10 percent of consumer demand. Hybrids will have to be taken into account along with EV and other new vehicles if fuel is indeed a crisis in the US. If not then you are correct manuals have nothing to fear because we will always have a flow of gas to splurge on performance or discretionary income.
The only reason I mentioned Toyota and Honda in relation to the CR-V and the Rav4 is because they once were offered in manual and now they aren't. At what point did they become un-necessary? Weren't there any people driving these vehicles that still wanted a manual? There had to be a reason they were dropped and someone had to make the decission to do so. The Nissan Maxima was once offered in a manual. So what some say, get a different car. That isn't the point, the point is that even the manufacturers are finding that it simply isn't worth offering manuals to the majority of the buying public. And while the US isn't the end all of auto manufacturing it is about 50 percent of the cars sold in the world. We do have more paved roads than any other country and out people do drive more miles in a year than most other people.
I am sure no one thought that the dog leg would be completely replaced in F-1 racing. I don't imagine anyone would have considered that WRC cars would do away with the H pattern either. ALMS cars followed as did LMPT. Yes these are extream racing examples and as Habitat has pointed out have nothing to do with street cars. But it does show that there is a better mouse trap out there than the dog leg. The only people effected however by SMT and DSG will be the manual drivers. The people that are simply looking for easier will be just as satisfied with the slush box as they always have.
The real question will be will things get better for the manual or will the be relegated to a niche market? I just don't see them advancing in the American market place to better their position passed the less than 10 percent they already have.
Food for thought - easier and more accepted does not mean better.
Amen to that.
I just had the 2 year service done on my 911S and the dealer gave me a 911 Turbo Tiptronic to test drive when I was waiting to pick it up yesterday. I almost said no thanks when I saw it was an automatic, but I figured I'd give it a try. What a horrible thing to do to a sports car. Compared to the 480hp Turbo emasculated with a slushbox, I had a big smile on my way home with 125 less horsepower, but 6 real gears and a clutch to play with.
Bristol2 didn't want to mud sling, but the "trend" towards lazy, fat, lethargic Americans and the 90%+ automatic transmissions probably has more correlation than some slushbox drivers would care to admit. Hell, now we even have Lexus selling self-parking sedans for those that find this too challenging.
The ironic thing is that as silly as we all think the self parking sedan is right now, 20 years from now another argument will be going on.
"The future of park yourself cars."
Some will say give in, let the car park itself, don't get in the way of technology, it is easier. Others will say they can fit in smaller spaces manually, they can park faster and they prefer the control.
Well you are correct, we are a nation of gadget people. And new and improved has become synonymous with easier to use. That seems to simply be the american way. After all cruise control has almost become standard on most cars today. They have radar to help us see in the fog. ABS because we couldn't learn to pump our brakes. Skid control because we couldn't learn to heal and toe or practice proper entry into and out of corners. Automatic parallel parking might have been unnecessary if people still knew how to parallel park. It isn't even on the drivers test in my state. But now they are going to add a device that helps slow your cruise control down automaticaly when you start getting too close to the vehicle in front of you. even big rig trucks now have cruise control. One of my favorite options available today is remote start. It is great for those cold morning or extra hot days when you simply would like the car warmer or cooler for the drive to or from work. The only thing is it isn't offered with most manuals. I simply don't see Americans changing their attitudes any time soon. In the US easier is almost always considered better.
How many cars are offered with remote start from the factory? I may be in a different car market than you but I cannot think of one, they are all after market.
I'd just like to say that they can have my manual transmission when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. I love the absolute control you wield over your engine, and it makes driving more interesting. People complain that MT's are "hard", "confusing", "annoying", and so on... I learned to drive on a manual, and every time I get into my car I mentally thank my parents for teaching me to drive on both of their manual cars. So yes, I absolutely HATE driving automatics, because I try to accelerate or slow down the engine, but the blasted tranny won't let me. Besides, I always feel lazy, and get distracted by anything I happen to notice (I'm kinda ADD that way).
So in short, I love my manual transmissions! I'll never own anything different. It gives me more freedom to play with my car, and I'm NEVER giving that up. :shades:
In the US easier is almost always considered better.
Speak for yourself and/or the 30%+ of Americans that are obese. The only thing "easy" fast food is good for are keeping cardiologists and "plus size" clothiers fully employed. And "easy" to maintain vinyl siding and production building techniques has made our suburbs look like pitiful tract housing slums compared to the architecturally attractive neighborhoods of custom built stone, brick and stucco homes from the early 1900's. I could go on, but while many technological scientific advancements have significantly improved our quality of life, the quest for "easier" has led to some fairly detrimental consequences.
We may disagree on manual vs. automatic transmissions, but I sure as hell hope as a parent you have/had the ability to distinguish between "easy" and "better". As in, better to read to and cook a real meal for your kids than easily plop them in front of a TV or drive them to McDonalds.
I enjoy many of the same things you do. My house is made of wood and there is little chance you will see another one just like it. I live in the mountains because I want to. I read and love to cook.
I do see part of the impasse we come to on this issue. I see the whole debate as theoretical or hypothetical. It matters little to me what happens to cars or trucks in the future because I will be happy to drive them no matter what they are. To me it doesn't matter if cars are ICE or EVs manuals or automatics. All I care about is that they get me to where I want to go so I can enjoy the things I want to do.
To some in this forum it is more personal than that. It is a change in lifestyle or options.
I see a future where gas consumption is a major concern even in the US and where we will be looking at Hybrids and EVs to replace ICE gas and diesel cars and trucks. I don't see those technologies lending themselves to manuals. You talked about things that are better for us? Wouldn't air quality be better for us if we embraced Hybrids and EVs? Is it easier to use technology to improve our quality of life when it comes to vehicles? Looking at the solutions that we are being offered I would say the manufacturers and the government believe we need a big change in the vehicles we drive.
Do you see a different future? If so I am not offended, it is simply an opinion. By the way, my son grew up without getting in any trouble and is now serving his country in Iraq. He reads but I am not sure he gets real meals.
Hybrids and EVs can as well be manual as automatic, if they employ changeable gear ratios at all. There is nothing inherently automatic in the technology. Toyota's particular implementation of hybrid technology is automatic, which is one reason I much prefer Honda's approach although the market seems to be driving them to automatics as well, pity.
I don't dispute that a majority of buyers, like you, see cars as an appliance and are satisfied as long as the vehicle gets them where they want to go and doesn't interfere with whatever else they're doing in the process. I must be involved in the process of travel, if for no other reason because I'm not wealthy enough to dismiss expenditures of tens of thousands of $ as appliances. I expect such expensive equipment to make my use of it effective and enjoyable, or at least pleasant, terms that are anathema to an automatic transmission vehicle, IMO.
And "easy" to maintain vinyl siding and production building techniques has made our suburbs look like pitiful tract housing slums compared to the architecturally attractive neighborhoods of custom built stone, brick and stucco homes from the early 1900's.
How many could afford to actually own one of those custom homes in the early 1900s?
Getting a bit far afield here aren't we? I guess you are a better and more virtuous person than me, because you live in an old house and shift gears.
I live in a 10 year old vinyl sided house, watch quite a bit of TV, and drive an automatic...yet somehow I am not overweight (5'10", 165 lbs). Amazing, eh?
Guess what? When I drove a manual I lived in a vinyl sided house and watched quite a bit of TV as well.
I do apparantly get a bit more enjoyment than you out of getting from point a to b and hence have chosen a manual transmission for all but out most recent SUV purchase, where it wasn't offered. But frankly, I fully respect your choice to care more abut the destination and the environment.
I'm not sure about embracing Hybrids, inasmuch as most of them actually get only average mpg on the highway. My marketing directors 2006 E320CDI gets 35+ mpg at 75 mph on the highway carrying 4 adults and luggage in comfort, whereas her husband's commuter Prius is a sardine can and barely gets any better mileage on the highway just carrying him. But...your point about seeking to improve air quality and social responsibility is acknowledged.
How many could afford to actually own one of those custom homes in the early 1900s?
Just about everybody, back then. And now, as well, if people weren't so focused on quanity over quality. The 3 bedroom 2 bath stone and brick home we inherited from my grandfather and aunt is about 1,500 square feet, not including the basement. With one TV in the house and the original mahogany and oak furniture that they purchased over 50 years ago. They lived modestly, but comfortably. Today, in my area (DC) there are entire subdivisions of cookie cutter tract houses that are 4,000+ s.f. and have all of the architectural character and build quality of a 3 car garage. People make their choices, but you don't need to be rich to have class.
I'm surely not a social reformist, and I am indeed getting more than a bit far afield here, so I'll cut the commentary.
P.S. My grandfather and aunt both drove automatics, at least from 1970 on, so there really isn't an on-topic point here. Sorry for the digression.
Y'all may be interested in the Houses cost too much! discussion. Not sure I agree with old being better - never much trusted the knob & tube wiring in one I owned - check out my post there.
I am in the same position with diesels as I am with with transmissions. I drive manuals and have for years, unless the vehicle i want isn't offered in manual. I prefer diesels often for their longevity and their fuel savings. However they are dirty when compared to a ULEV gas engine. I know they have improved in Europe with some filter traps that have made their diesels close to a LEV gas engine but the traps have to be serviced more often than emission equipment is allowed in my State. So when i wanted a pickup a few years ago I had to 3/4 ton so i could have a diesel because the restrictions were less on them. It was a loop hole but it was the only way I could get a diesel truck.
The point is even more evident if I were interested in getting a passenger car. About my only choice would have been a VW because even MB wasn't offering diesels for at least a few years. So it has never been what I like but rather what I can get. VW will never darken my driveway again if i can help it. I have had three and they have to have the worst dealer parts and service of any company in the world. And not being close to the top of the dependability list service becomes a big issue. So many of the vehicles I might be interested in simply don't come in the configuration I want. I don't see that changing in the near future.
Let me just say that I do agree with you as far as what people think they need...re: 4000 sf houses. (This is sort of like how people think they need a giant SUV to cart around a couple of kids).
Our plastic house is "only" 1900 sf. Brick is nice, but we were not willing to shell out an extra $20,000 or so when we built it. No way do I want wood, not interested in spending the rest of my life repainting.
We did make our choices...we cared more about getting a nice partially wooded lot, having minimal maintenance, and saving some money on construction costs than we did about some other things.
Well, my 4Runner is finally chewing on its transmission. I can hear it nibbling and chewing away at the gears(all too happily so it seems). Bad boy - no more eating gears!
:P
A remanufactured, extra heavy-duty replacement from the best company in the business for off-road transmissions is $950. Ship it, drop it in - no worries. Rebuilding it myself would take maybe $400-$500. It's not rocket science to rebuild a purely mechanical gearbox, which is why I like my old truck.
On an older vehicle, what would probably make the most sense is to throw in a used lower mileage automatic transmission. No idea what that costs, but surely well under $3000.
1 - the torque converter itself is several hundred dollars. ($$) even on a used swap, the converter is always necessarry to replace unless you like taking chances.
2 - the gears and hydraulics are way more expensive to fix and replace. And that's if the computers are okay. Any used one is going to require replacing hoses and clamps and other parts due to age.($$$)
3 - The thing is seriously heavy. My manual is only 62lbs. I don't need special tools or a lift to get it out. needing special tools costs even more money.
Well, I was not thinking of it from a do-it-yourselfer point of view. For me any fixing/replacing means I say "I have money, make this work again...thanks" to someone with experience, knowledge, and tools .
I hear ya. I predict there will be a renewed interest in learning to fix things yourself, if for no other reason than to challenge oneself.
I purchased a mini-Van with an AT, but it was my first vehicle with an AT. The 4 or 5 other vehicles I have owned were MTs, and I miss them all. No problems ever with the powertrains. Nada, zip. Super reliable. Super cost effective. Fun fun fun to drive. I was always actively engaged in the process of controlling the vehicle.
I think next go around, I want a highly stripped down MT vehicle without all the unnecessary junk.
Old cars are just about the only things left that a person could fix any more. Appliances, TVs Stereos and the like are all designed to be replaced, not fixed. This is because we live in an age when Labor is costly and Technology is cheap. Back in the Bugatti era it was the opposite.
You have made a very valid point. Fixing or even servicing a new car is almost out of reach for the average person. The black box in most new cars isn't something many of us can repair. While it can be very helpful to have a hand held code reader often all it can do is tell you where to begin looking for a problem. Simply letting the hose for the Air Mass Sensor slip off before you try and start you engine after putting in a new filter will cause the check engine light to come on and stay of. It has to be reset. In fact many of the new front engine cars just dropping the the transmission to replace the throw out bearing is $1000.00 on a manual. At least that was the labor for my old Saturn. I doubt if there will be much of a renewed interest in wrenching on you own car again. Not with the warrentee restrictions so many companies have.
that is one nice thing about Honda. They make the EX-L (most loaded model) with the stick or AT. At least they still do with the 4 cyl on the '08 sedan. Only with the V6 on the coupe now.
This drove me nuts with a few cars I looked at 2 years ago. The Subaru, you couldn't have leather or a power seat. Hyundai (Sonata) and VW Passat, no moonroof (or power in the VW IIRC). I'm sure there were other cases, but you get the idea.
At least BMW still offers the good stuff with a stick, if you are shopping a higher price point.
Yesterday I was on the Kelly blue book site looking for used Crossovers on their site. I put in the price I was looking to pay within 4k and asked for a Subaru outback, forester, Honda CR-V and a RAV-4. All hits within 100 miles of me were automatics. This is not to say a manual can't be found but it takes more research that most people are willing to spend. I want AWD or 4X4 and I would like reasonable fuel mileage. If I type in 50 miles manuals are in the minority even for 2WD crossovers. This leads me to believe one of two possibilities. Manuals are are a smaller minority in crossovers than suggested or manual drivers simply aren't trading in their cars.
Oh an 18k new Forester simply isn't going to happen here. We have one Subaru dealer within 50 miles and they know they have the mountain area all to themselves. I know I can find one and i have time to look but for the normal consumer that only starts looking when they are ready to buy it is simply another reasons automatics do so well in sales. I am looking for about 60 to 90 days out and I am thinking a two to three year old car. I have had no more problems with my used cars than I have with my new cars. Between 2001 and today I have had two new cars and three used cars. So I am hoping to avoid the drive off the lot loss on a new car. Maybe I can't.
I think if you look consistently during the time frame you want to purchase, you will probably find something that fits your bill. I recently sold my '07 Outback with MT after owning it about 6 months. It took me two months to sell it, but the first person who seriously looked at it snapped it up. So, it is not just the buyers who have a small market.
I am considering taking a trip to the lower 48 in the next few months to drive an F350 down to my mother in Oregon. If we do this, I will purchase a slightly used Subaru wagon, drive it around to visit family down there, then back up to Alaska. Once I get home and clean it up, I will sell it. Regrettably, that means I would buy an automatic as I do not want the headache of looking for a manual nor the headache of trying to sell it again. :sick:
I am still not sure we will make the trip, but I am doing a feasibility study on it now to determine if it is even worth the effort. I would be satisfied with just having the car pay for itself (not including fuel, food, etc for trip, as the car is not the purpose of the trip), but my wife wants it to mostly finance the trip. That might be a tough sell.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
but my wife wants it to mostly finance the trip. That might be a tough sell.
That's a gutsy move, getting into the used car business to finance a trip...
Are Subaru's getting that much of a premium up there? My brother is up in Fairbanks and he only ever drives Toyota's, I guess the Japanese reputation for reliability means a lot more when breaking down on the highway means surviving -40f weather!
I think you may be correct with the time frame I have been looking at. Like I said the dealer closest to me isn't going to help me at all because they have no reason to. They sell all mountain people a Subaru and don't have to worry that someone else is going to offer them a better deal. But the draw back is Toyota and Honda are selling boat loads of crossovers because they have to deal. Of course every new resident that moves up here gets a Jeep anyway and there are jeep dealers in every town. There are two big ones within 20 miles of my house.
Like I said, I doubt we could finance the trip with it. But I really do not care if it finances the trip. I just want to be able to basically get the transport itself at no cost. Fuel should be about $1000, and we have taken enough road trips to have food and lodging down to an art. I expect that if we were to do it, we could get the car to slightly subsidize the trip, but if nothing else it will save the cost of a rental.
It really all depends on how good of a deal I can work out down south. For a used Subaru, I should be able to pick one up for ~$2000 less than what I could here in Fairbanks without much effort. However, now I am digressing from MT discussion altogether.
I love MTs, and unfortunately the only vehicle I own with a manual right now is my 1969 Chevy C20 pickup. That said, the automatic transmission on the Subaru is far more versatile in adverse conditions than the manual... but I still preferred the manual! It killed me to have to sell the car, but I still think it was the best choice.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I think our days driving a slushbox MDX are looking numbered. Porsche and BMW offered manuals in there least powerful base models, but Porsche has finally offered it in their more powerful V8 "S" that is the most popular model.
Doesn't help the buyer looking for a $30k SUV with a stick, but it reinforces my position that if there are consumers out there with a manual preference and money in their wallet, somebody will serve the market. And, in this case, the somebody happens to be a company that sells a tiny fraction of the volume of the Big three, but is more PROFITABLE than all of them combined.
Unfortunately, just found out that the base MSRP for that GTS will be $70,000 +/-.
As far as the "face", maybe I'm unwittingly becoming a Porscheholic. Although it certainly doesn't have the appeal to me of a 911 or Cayman, I'd still gladly take it over the square box flat face exterior style of the Range Rover. I know it's considered "classic" by some, but their proportions remind me too much of our old Isuzu Trooper. And even though I'm sure RR improved their driving dynamics over the years, the shape hasn't changed much from a colleague's old Range Rover Country that used to sway in a mild crosswind on the highway. I think that Country model had the lowest lateral cornering ability of any vehicle tested by Road and Track, 0.03g below our tipsy Trooper.
In any event, I think the MDX will be with us for awhile to come, as my wife continues to utilize the third row seating too often to justify a $40,000 trade-up to the GTS just to get a stick. And, apparantly, it only seats 4, replacing the second row 3 seat bench with 2 bucket sport seats. Heck, for our family, the only thing the Cayenne GTS would give us over our 911 is a bigger trunk.
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GM for instance, sells more manual equipped vehicles worldwide than it sells cars in the U.S. and Canada.
But, when I talked about how it will be even harder to find a manual the next time he is looking for a used car, even he felt that this will be less of an issue for him as time goes on. This is because of the recent advent of 5-6 speed automatics, CVTs, and DSGs and also because of the minimal mpg difference in newer models as well as the "design for racing" mentality that seems to rule manuals now. In his price range we were looking at '98 and earlier cars...the advatages of manuals were much more apparent back then.
I will certainly continue to buy exclusively manuals until they are totally unavailable. I am trying to warm up to DGSs a little if/when the day comes that no-one sells manuals any more. So far it isn't working....
I am somewhat encouraged that when Toyota recently redesigned the most popular car in America, it continued to offer a 5-speed manual, and that in fact there are a few out there in dealer stock, ready for purchase.
I was at a local consignment lot last weekend, and was pleasantly surprised to find that there were a large number of used cars with manuals available, mostly in sporty cars and smaller econoboxes, but intriguingly including a full-size Dodge Ram. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In the market place today more than 90 percent of the population have decided the manual is not a necessary part of the tool they are buying. Can that be denied?
No, can't be denied. But it has been that way for 20 years and we seem to be at some kind of level in this country. In the rest of the world, manuals are dominant.
On skid control...I have that on my stick shift and it has made no difference to the transmission. Since mine is a FWD car, it has actually helped control the torque steer. In my opinion, skid control is a non-factor in relation to transmission choice.
...how do you predict the manual will stand up against the present trend of automation in the name of safety? How will it stand up in the quest for fuel economy and hybrid drive or even EV vehicles?
Automation for safety-see above. You cannot convince me that an automatic is safer.
Fuel economy- an automatic transmission is heavier, it always will be. Weight is the biggest single factor in mileage. Gearing is certainly a factor and in the US many manuals seem to be geared for performance not mileage. They can equally be geared for mileage. The EPA 'rewards' an automatic simply based on its pre-set shifts.
Hybrids and EV vehicles may be a part of the future in improving mileage but they are not the whole future. They don't work in larger vehicles and diesel appears to be equally beneficial in improving mileage- and works fine with a manual.
Where will the future defenders of tradition verses technology come from?
I guess the same place the current defenders of tradition come from??
You tell my why more than 90 percent of the market in the US drives automatics?
I don't want to mud-sling but because it is easier and 90% of people want things to be easy. Again, the US is not the only car-market and is 50% behind the rest of the world in mileage achieved, a standard we may have to address.
You tell me why two of the most dependable manufacturers sold in the US today stopped making manuals available
Not sure who you are referring to. I'm not aware of any manufacturer that does not make manuals available. If you are referring to the RAV-4 and the CRV, I would say only that they were pretty unusual in the SUV segment by ever having stick shifts. The Camry and Accord both offer manuals.
Like another poster said earlier I wouldn't want to have to turn to a german car simply because the car of my choice didn't come in a manual.
? If you want an SUV the Germans can't help you. If you want a small car, they all offer stick. If you want a sports car, the Corvette offers a manual as well as Porsche. If you want a family car, you can get it in stick from Germany, Japan or the U.S.
In summary, I would say that the new developments in DSG/ SMG etc are more a threat to the traditional automatic than they are to the traditional stick shift.
Finally 10% of the approximately 13 million vehicles sold in the US is still a large number of manuals.
It would be better for our health as a country if people took the stairs instead of elevators for 4 floors or less. We would save energy, save time waiting for an elevator and people would be in better shape. But it is easier to take the elevator so that is what 90+ percent of the people do.
Maybe we should eliminate stairs because they are used so rarely by a bunch of "tradionalists". Buildings would then have more space for offices etc.
It is also better for people to stay in shape, but it is easier to eat cheetos and watch TV.
Easier is not better - it is often worse.
I have never thought that the reason for automatics in the US was for any other reason other than it was easier. But I have thought that the mass market will be the factor that effects the choices more than 10 percent of consumer demand. Hybrids will have to be taken into account along with EV and other new vehicles if fuel is indeed a crisis in the US. If not then you are correct manuals have nothing to fear because we will always have a flow of gas to splurge on performance or discretionary income.
The only reason I mentioned Toyota and Honda in relation to the CR-V and the Rav4 is because they once were offered in manual and now they aren't. At what point did they become un-necessary? Weren't there any people driving these vehicles that still wanted a manual? There had to be a reason they were dropped and someone had to make the decission to do so. The Nissan Maxima was once offered in a manual. So what some say, get a different car. That isn't the point, the point is that even the manufacturers are finding that it simply isn't worth offering manuals to the majority of the buying public. And while the US isn't the end all of auto manufacturing it is about 50 percent of the cars sold in the world. We do have more paved roads than any other country and out people do drive more miles in a year than most other people.
I am sure no one thought that the dog leg would be completely replaced in F-1 racing. I don't imagine anyone would have considered that WRC cars would do away with the H pattern either. ALMS cars followed as did LMPT. Yes these are extream racing examples and as Habitat has pointed out have nothing to do with street cars. But it does show that there is a better mouse trap out there than the dog leg. The only people effected however by SMT and DSG will be the manual drivers. The people that are simply looking for easier will be just as satisfied with the slush box as they always have.
The real question will be will things get better for the manual or will the be relegated to a niche market? I just don't see them advancing in the American market place to better their position passed the less than 10 percent they already have.
Amen to that.
I just had the 2 year service done on my 911S and the dealer gave me a 911 Turbo Tiptronic to test drive when I was waiting to pick it up yesterday. I almost said no thanks when I saw it was an automatic, but I figured I'd give it a try. What a horrible thing to do to a sports car. Compared to the 480hp Turbo emasculated with a slushbox, I had a big smile on my way home with 125 less horsepower, but 6 real gears and a clutch to play with.
Bristol2 didn't want to mud sling, but the "trend" towards lazy, fat, lethargic Americans and the 90%+ automatic transmissions probably has more correlation than some slushbox drivers would care to admit. Hell, now we even have Lexus selling self-parking sedans for those that find this too challenging.
"The future of park yourself cars."
Some will say give in, let the car park itself, don't get in the way of technology, it is easier. Others will say they can fit in smaller spaces manually, they can park faster and they prefer the control.
Well put.
http://www.izoom.com/2006_chevy_malibu_maxx.htm
So in short, I love my manual transmissions! I'll never own anything different. It gives me more freedom to play with my car, and I'm NEVER giving that up. :shades:
Speak for yourself and/or the 30%+ of Americans that are obese. The only thing "easy" fast food is good for are keeping cardiologists and "plus size" clothiers fully employed. And "easy" to maintain vinyl siding and production building techniques has made our suburbs look like pitiful tract housing slums compared to the architecturally attractive neighborhoods of custom built stone, brick and stucco homes from the early 1900's. I could go on, but while many technological scientific advancements have significantly improved our quality of life, the quest for "easier" has led to some fairly detrimental consequences.
We may disagree on manual vs. automatic transmissions, but I sure as hell hope as a parent you have/had the ability to distinguish between "easy" and "better". As in, better to read to and cook a real meal for your kids than easily plop them in front of a TV or drive them to McDonalds.
America the Fat
I do see part of the impasse we come to on this issue. I see the whole debate as theoretical or hypothetical. It matters little to me what happens to cars or trucks in the future because I will be happy to drive them no matter what they are. To me it doesn't matter if cars are ICE or EVs manuals or automatics. All I care about is that they get me to where I want to go so I can enjoy the things I want to do.
To some in this forum it is more personal than that. It is a change in lifestyle or options.
I see a future where gas consumption is a major concern even in the US and where we will be looking at Hybrids and EVs to replace ICE gas and diesel cars and trucks. I don't see those technologies lending themselves to manuals. You talked about things that are better for us? Wouldn't air quality be better for us if we embraced Hybrids and EVs? Is it easier to use technology to improve our quality of life when it comes to vehicles? Looking at the solutions that we are being offered I would say the manufacturers and the government believe we need a big change in the vehicles we drive.
Do you see a different future? If so I am not offended, it is simply an opinion. By the way, my son grew up without getting in any trouble and is now serving his country in Iraq. He reads but I am not sure he gets real meals.
I don't dispute that a majority of buyers, like you, see cars as an appliance and are satisfied as long as the vehicle gets them where they want to go and doesn't interfere with whatever else they're doing in the process. I must be involved in the process of travel, if for no other reason because I'm not wealthy enough to dismiss expenditures of tens of thousands of $ as appliances. I expect such expensive equipment to make my use of it effective and enjoyable, or at least pleasant, terms that are anathema to an automatic transmission vehicle, IMO.
How many could afford to actually own one of those custom homes in the early 1900s?
Getting a bit far afield here aren't we? I guess you are a better and more virtuous person than me, because you live in an old house and shift gears.
I live in a 10 year old vinyl sided house, watch quite a bit of TV, and drive an automatic...yet somehow I am not overweight (5'10", 165 lbs). Amazing, eh?
Guess what? When I drove a manual I lived in a vinyl sided house and watched quite a bit of TV as well.
I do apparantly get a bit more enjoyment than you out of getting from point a to b and hence have chosen a manual transmission for all but out most recent SUV purchase, where it wasn't offered. But frankly, I fully respect your choice to care more abut the destination and the environment.
I'm not sure about embracing Hybrids, inasmuch as most of them actually get only average mpg on the highway. My marketing directors 2006 E320CDI gets 35+ mpg at 75 mph on the highway carrying 4 adults and luggage in comfort, whereas her husband's commuter Prius is a sardine can and barely gets any better mileage on the highway just carrying him. But...your point about seeking to improve air quality and social responsibility is acknowledged.
And tell your son, "thanks".
Just about everybody, back then. And now, as well, if people weren't so focused on quanity over quality. The 3 bedroom 2 bath stone and brick home we inherited from my grandfather and aunt is about 1,500 square feet, not including the basement. With one TV in the house and the original mahogany and oak furniture that they purchased over 50 years ago. They lived modestly, but comfortably. Today, in my area (DC) there are entire subdivisions of cookie cutter tract houses that are 4,000+ s.f. and have all of the architectural character and build quality of a 3 car garage. People make their choices, but you don't need to be rich to have class.
I'm surely not a social reformist, and I am indeed getting more than a bit far afield here, so I'll cut the commentary.
P.S. My grandfather and aunt both drove automatics, at least from 1970 on, so there really isn't an on-topic point here. Sorry for the digression.
I am in the same position with diesels as I am with with transmissions. I drive manuals and have for years, unless the vehicle i want isn't offered in manual. I prefer diesels often for their longevity and their fuel savings. However they are dirty when compared to a ULEV gas engine. I know they have improved in Europe with some filter traps that have made their diesels close to a LEV gas engine but the traps have to be serviced more often than emission equipment is allowed in my State. So when i wanted a pickup a few years ago I had to 3/4 ton so i could have a diesel because the restrictions were less on them. It was a loop hole but it was the only way I could get a diesel truck.
The point is even more evident if I were interested in getting a passenger car. About my only choice would have been a VW because even MB wasn't offering diesels for at least a few years. So it has never been what I like but rather what I can get. VW will never darken my driveway again if i can help it. I have had three and they have to have the worst dealer parts and service of any company in the world. And not being close to the top of the dependability list service becomes a big issue. So many of the vehicles I might be interested in simply don't come in the configuration I want. I don't see that changing in the near future.
Our plastic house is "only" 1900 sf. Brick is nice, but we were not willing to shell out an extra $20,000 or so when we built it. No way do I want wood, not interested in spending the rest of my life repainting.
We did make our choices...we cared more about getting a nice partially wooded lot, having minimal maintenance, and saving some money on construction costs than we did about some other things.
:P
A remanufactured, extra heavy-duty replacement from the best company in the business for off-road transmissions is $950. Ship it, drop it in - no worries. Rebuilding it myself would take maybe $400-$500. It's not rocket science to rebuild a purely mechanical gearbox, which is why I like my old truck.
http://www.marlincrawler.com/
Compared to a typical automatic($3000?!?)... No brainer as to why I have a manual.
1 - the torque converter itself is several hundred dollars. ($$) even on a used swap, the converter is always necessarry to replace unless you like taking chances.
2 - the gears and hydraulics are way more expensive to fix and replace. And that's if the computers are okay. Any used one is going to require replacing hoses and clamps and other parts due to age.($$$)
3 - The thing is seriously heavy. My manual is only 62lbs. I don't need special tools or a lift to get it out. needing special tools costs even more money.
I purchased a mini-Van with an AT, but it was my first vehicle with an AT. The 4 or 5 other vehicles I have owned were MTs, and I miss them all. No problems ever with the powertrains. Nada, zip. Super reliable. Super cost effective. Fun fun fun to drive. I was always actively engaged in the process of controlling the vehicle.
I think next go around, I want a highly stripped down MT vehicle without all the unnecessary junk.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
You and me both.
It can be done, but it's not easy.
Best Regards,
Shipo
This drove me nuts with a few cars I looked at 2 years ago. The Subaru, you couldn't have leather or a power seat. Hyundai (Sonata) and VW Passat, no moonroof (or power in the VW IIRC). I'm sure there were other cases, but you get the idea.
At least BMW still offers the good stuff with a stick, if you are shopping a higher price point.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And that's why I drive a 4 cyl EX-L with Navi. It was hard to find a fully loaded model with a stick, but not impossible. :shades:
Last quote I got, $900 for Katskins, $1300 with heaters.
You can find used manual Foresters, though, keep looking. I kept mine for 9 long years. :shades:
You can get a brand new Forester with a manual for about $18k.
I am considering taking a trip to the lower 48 in the next few months to drive an F350 down to my mother in Oregon. If we do this, I will purchase a slightly used Subaru wagon, drive it around to visit family down there, then back up to Alaska. Once I get home and clean it up, I will sell it. Regrettably, that means I would buy an automatic as I do not want the headache of looking for a manual nor the headache of trying to sell it again. :sick:
I am still not sure we will make the trip, but I am doing a feasibility study on it now to determine if it is even worth the effort. I would be satisfied with just having the car pay for itself (not including fuel, food, etc for trip, as the car is not the purpose of the trip), but my wife wants it to mostly finance the trip. That might be a tough sell.
That's a gutsy move, getting into the used car business to finance a trip...
Are Subaru's getting that much of a premium up there? My brother is up in Fairbanks and he only ever drives Toyota's, I guess the Japanese reputation for reliability means a lot more when breaking down on the highway means surviving -40f weather!
Good luck with your trip.
It really all depends on how good of a deal I can work out down south. For a used Subaru, I should be able to pick one up for ~$2000 less than what I could here in Fairbanks without much effort. However, now I am digressing from MT discussion altogether.
I love MTs, and unfortunately the only vehicle I own with a manual right now is my 1969 Chevy C20 pickup. That said, the automatic transmission on the Subaru is far more versatile in adverse conditions than the manual... but I still preferred the manual! It killed me to have to sell the car, but I still think it was the best choice.
Example: their market share in Vermont is FOURTEEN times what it is in Florida. :surprise:
To shop a 2-3 year old used one I'd give myself a good 3 months or so to find the right one.
Porsche USA
I think our days driving a slushbox MDX are looking numbered. Porsche and BMW offered manuals in there least powerful base models, but Porsche has finally offered it in their more powerful V8 "S" that is the most popular model.
Doesn't help the buyer looking for a $30k SUV with a stick, but it reinforces my position that if there are consumers out there with a manual preference and money in their wallet, somebody will serve the market. And, in this case, the somebody happens to be a company that sells a tiny fraction of the volume of the Big three, but is more PROFITABLE than all of them combined.
Face only a mother, or a Porscheholic, could love unfortunately.
:surprise:
As far as the "face", maybe I'm unwittingly becoming a Porscheholic. Although it certainly doesn't have the appeal to me of a 911 or Cayman, I'd still gladly take it over the square box flat face exterior style of the Range Rover. I know it's considered "classic" by some, but their proportions remind me too much of our old Isuzu Trooper. And even though I'm sure RR improved their driving dynamics over the years, the shape hasn't changed much from a colleague's old Range Rover Country that used to sway in a mild crosswind on the highway. I think that Country model had the lowest lateral cornering ability of any vehicle tested by Road and Track, 0.03g below our tipsy Trooper.
In any event, I think the MDX will be with us for awhile to come, as my wife continues to utilize the third row seating too often to justify a $40,000 trade-up to the GTS just to get a stick. And, apparantly, it only seats 4, replacing the second row 3 seat bench with 2 bucket sport seats. Heck, for our family, the only thing the Cayenne GTS would give us over our 911 is a bigger trunk.