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GM for instance, sells more manual equipped vehicles worldwide than it sells cars in the U.S. and Canada.
But, when I talked about how it will be even harder to find a manual the next time he is looking for a used car, even he felt that this will be less of an issue for him as time goes on. This is because of the recent advent of 5-6 speed automatics, CVTs, and DSGs and also because of the minimal mpg difference in newer models as well as the "design for racing" mentality that seems to rule manuals now. In his price range we were looking at '98 and earlier cars...the advatages of manuals were much more apparent back then.
I will certainly continue to buy exclusively manuals until they are totally unavailable. I am trying to warm up to DGSs a little if/when the day comes that no-one sells manuals any more. So far it isn't working....
I am somewhat encouraged that when Toyota recently redesigned the most popular car in America, it continued to offer a 5-speed manual, and that in fact there are a few out there in dealer stock, ready for purchase.
I was at a local consignment lot last weekend, and was pleasantly surprised to find that there were a large number of used cars with manuals available, mostly in sporty cars and smaller econoboxes, but intriguingly including a full-size Dodge Ram. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In the market place today more than 90 percent of the population have decided the manual is not a necessary part of the tool they are buying. Can that be denied?
No, can't be denied. But it has been that way for 20 years and we seem to be at some kind of level in this country. In the rest of the world, manuals are dominant.
On skid control...I have that on my stick shift and it has made no difference to the transmission. Since mine is a FWD car, it has actually helped control the torque steer. In my opinion, skid control is a non-factor in relation to transmission choice.
...how do you predict the manual will stand up against the present trend of automation in the name of safety? How will it stand up in the quest for fuel economy and hybrid drive or even EV vehicles?
Automation for safety-see above. You cannot convince me that an automatic is safer.
Fuel economy- an automatic transmission is heavier, it always will be. Weight is the biggest single factor in mileage. Gearing is certainly a factor and in the US many manuals seem to be geared for performance not mileage. They can equally be geared for mileage. The EPA 'rewards' an automatic simply based on its pre-set shifts.
Hybrids and EV vehicles may be a part of the future in improving mileage but they are not the whole future. They don't work in larger vehicles and diesel appears to be equally beneficial in improving mileage- and works fine with a manual.
Where will the future defenders of tradition verses technology come from?
I guess the same place the current defenders of tradition come from??
You tell my why more than 90 percent of the market in the US drives automatics?
I don't want to mud-sling but because it is easier and 90% of people want things to be easy. Again, the US is not the only car-market and is 50% behind the rest of the world in mileage achieved, a standard we may have to address.
You tell me why two of the most dependable manufacturers sold in the US today stopped making manuals available
Not sure who you are referring to. I'm not aware of any manufacturer that does not make manuals available. If you are referring to the RAV-4 and the CRV, I would say only that they were pretty unusual in the SUV segment by ever having stick shifts. The Camry and Accord both offer manuals.
Like another poster said earlier I wouldn't want to have to turn to a german car simply because the car of my choice didn't come in a manual.
? If you want an SUV the Germans can't help you. If you want a small car, they all offer stick. If you want a sports car, the Corvette offers a manual as well as Porsche. If you want a family car, you can get it in stick from Germany, Japan or the U.S.
In summary, I would say that the new developments in DSG/ SMG etc are more a threat to the traditional automatic than they are to the traditional stick shift.
Finally 10% of the approximately 13 million vehicles sold in the US is still a large number of manuals.
It would be better for our health as a country if people took the stairs instead of elevators for 4 floors or less. We would save energy, save time waiting for an elevator and people would be in better shape. But it is easier to take the elevator so that is what 90+ percent of the people do.
Maybe we should eliminate stairs because they are used so rarely by a bunch of "tradionalists". Buildings would then have more space for offices etc.
It is also better for people to stay in shape, but it is easier to eat cheetos and watch TV.
Easier is not better - it is often worse.
I have never thought that the reason for automatics in the US was for any other reason other than it was easier. But I have thought that the mass market will be the factor that effects the choices more than 10 percent of consumer demand. Hybrids will have to be taken into account along with EV and other new vehicles if fuel is indeed a crisis in the US. If not then you are correct manuals have nothing to fear because we will always have a flow of gas to splurge on performance or discretionary income.
The only reason I mentioned Toyota and Honda in relation to the CR-V and the Rav4 is because they once were offered in manual and now they aren't. At what point did they become un-necessary? Weren't there any people driving these vehicles that still wanted a manual? There had to be a reason they were dropped and someone had to make the decission to do so. The Nissan Maxima was once offered in a manual. So what some say, get a different car. That isn't the point, the point is that even the manufacturers are finding that it simply isn't worth offering manuals to the majority of the buying public. And while the US isn't the end all of auto manufacturing it is about 50 percent of the cars sold in the world. We do have more paved roads than any other country and out people do drive more miles in a year than most other people.
I am sure no one thought that the dog leg would be completely replaced in F-1 racing. I don't imagine anyone would have considered that WRC cars would do away with the H pattern either. ALMS cars followed as did LMPT. Yes these are extream racing examples and as Habitat has pointed out have nothing to do with street cars. But it does show that there is a better mouse trap out there than the dog leg. The only people effected however by SMT and DSG will be the manual drivers. The people that are simply looking for easier will be just as satisfied with the slush box as they always have.
The real question will be will things get better for the manual or will the be relegated to a niche market? I just don't see them advancing in the American market place to better their position passed the less than 10 percent they already have.
Amen to that.
I just had the 2 year service done on my 911S and the dealer gave me a 911 Turbo Tiptronic to test drive when I was waiting to pick it up yesterday. I almost said no thanks when I saw it was an automatic, but I figured I'd give it a try. What a horrible thing to do to a sports car. Compared to the 480hp Turbo emasculated with a slushbox, I had a big smile on my way home with 125 less horsepower, but 6 real gears and a clutch to play with.
Bristol2 didn't want to mud sling, but the "trend" towards lazy, fat, lethargic Americans and the 90%+ automatic transmissions probably has more correlation than some slushbox drivers would care to admit. Hell, now we even have Lexus selling self-parking sedans for those that find this too challenging.
"The future of park yourself cars."
Some will say give in, let the car park itself, don't get in the way of technology, it is easier. Others will say they can fit in smaller spaces manually, they can park faster and they prefer the control.
Well put.
http://www.izoom.com/2006_chevy_malibu_maxx.htm
So in short, I love my manual transmissions! I'll never own anything different. It gives me more freedom to play with my car, and I'm NEVER giving that up. :shades:
Speak for yourself and/or the 30%+ of Americans that are obese. The only thing "easy" fast food is good for are keeping cardiologists and "plus size" clothiers fully employed. And "easy" to maintain vinyl siding and production building techniques has made our suburbs look like pitiful tract housing slums compared to the architecturally attractive neighborhoods of custom built stone, brick and stucco homes from the early 1900's. I could go on, but while many technological scientific advancements have significantly improved our quality of life, the quest for "easier" has led to some fairly detrimental consequences.
We may disagree on manual vs. automatic transmissions, but I sure as hell hope as a parent you have/had the ability to distinguish between "easy" and "better". As in, better to read to and cook a real meal for your kids than easily plop them in front of a TV or drive them to McDonalds.
America the Fat
I do see part of the impasse we come to on this issue. I see the whole debate as theoretical or hypothetical. It matters little to me what happens to cars or trucks in the future because I will be happy to drive them no matter what they are. To me it doesn't matter if cars are ICE or EVs manuals or automatics. All I care about is that they get me to where I want to go so I can enjoy the things I want to do.
To some in this forum it is more personal than that. It is a change in lifestyle or options.
I see a future where gas consumption is a major concern even in the US and where we will be looking at Hybrids and EVs to replace ICE gas and diesel cars and trucks. I don't see those technologies lending themselves to manuals. You talked about things that are better for us? Wouldn't air quality be better for us if we embraced Hybrids and EVs? Is it easier to use technology to improve our quality of life when it comes to vehicles? Looking at the solutions that we are being offered I would say the manufacturers and the government believe we need a big change in the vehicles we drive.
Do you see a different future? If so I am not offended, it is simply an opinion. By the way, my son grew up without getting in any trouble and is now serving his country in Iraq. He reads but I am not sure he gets real meals.
I don't dispute that a majority of buyers, like you, see cars as an appliance and are satisfied as long as the vehicle gets them where they want to go and doesn't interfere with whatever else they're doing in the process. I must be involved in the process of travel, if for no other reason because I'm not wealthy enough to dismiss expenditures of tens of thousands of $ as appliances. I expect such expensive equipment to make my use of it effective and enjoyable, or at least pleasant, terms that are anathema to an automatic transmission vehicle, IMO.
How many could afford to actually own one of those custom homes in the early 1900s?
Getting a bit far afield here aren't we? I guess you are a better and more virtuous person than me, because you live in an old house and shift gears.
I live in a 10 year old vinyl sided house, watch quite a bit of TV, and drive an automatic...yet somehow I am not overweight (5'10", 165 lbs). Amazing, eh?
Guess what? When I drove a manual I lived in a vinyl sided house and watched quite a bit of TV as well.
I do apparantly get a bit more enjoyment than you out of getting from point a to b and hence have chosen a manual transmission for all but out most recent SUV purchase, where it wasn't offered. But frankly, I fully respect your choice to care more abut the destination and the environment.
I'm not sure about embracing Hybrids, inasmuch as most of them actually get only average mpg on the highway. My marketing directors 2006 E320CDI gets 35+ mpg at 75 mph on the highway carrying 4 adults and luggage in comfort, whereas her husband's commuter Prius is a sardine can and barely gets any better mileage on the highway just carrying him. But...your point about seeking to improve air quality and social responsibility is acknowledged.
And tell your son, "thanks".
Just about everybody, back then. And now, as well, if people weren't so focused on quanity over quality. The 3 bedroom 2 bath stone and brick home we inherited from my grandfather and aunt is about 1,500 square feet, not including the basement. With one TV in the house and the original mahogany and oak furniture that they purchased over 50 years ago. They lived modestly, but comfortably. Today, in my area (DC) there are entire subdivisions of cookie cutter tract houses that are 4,000+ s.f. and have all of the architectural character and build quality of a 3 car garage. People make their choices, but you don't need to be rich to have class.
I'm surely not a social reformist, and I am indeed getting more than a bit far afield here, so I'll cut the commentary.
P.S. My grandfather and aunt both drove automatics, at least from 1970 on, so there really isn't an on-topic point here. Sorry for the digression.
I am in the same position with diesels as I am with with transmissions. I drive manuals and have for years, unless the vehicle i want isn't offered in manual. I prefer diesels often for their longevity and their fuel savings. However they are dirty when compared to a ULEV gas engine. I know they have improved in Europe with some filter traps that have made their diesels close to a LEV gas engine but the traps have to be serviced more often than emission equipment is allowed in my State. So when i wanted a pickup a few years ago I had to 3/4 ton so i could have a diesel because the restrictions were less on them. It was a loop hole but it was the only way I could get a diesel truck.
The point is even more evident if I were interested in getting a passenger car. About my only choice would have been a VW because even MB wasn't offering diesels for at least a few years. So it has never been what I like but rather what I can get. VW will never darken my driveway again if i can help it. I have had three and they have to have the worst dealer parts and service of any company in the world. And not being close to the top of the dependability list service becomes a big issue. So many of the vehicles I might be interested in simply don't come in the configuration I want. I don't see that changing in the near future.
Our plastic house is "only" 1900 sf. Brick is nice, but we were not willing to shell out an extra $20,000 or so when we built it. No way do I want wood, not interested in spending the rest of my life repainting.
We did make our choices...we cared more about getting a nice partially wooded lot, having minimal maintenance, and saving some money on construction costs than we did about some other things.
:P
A remanufactured, extra heavy-duty replacement from the best company in the business for off-road transmissions is $950. Ship it, drop it in - no worries. Rebuilding it myself would take maybe $400-$500. It's not rocket science to rebuild a purely mechanical gearbox, which is why I like my old truck.
http://www.marlincrawler.com/
Compared to a typical automatic($3000?!?)... No brainer as to why I have a manual.
1 - the torque converter itself is several hundred dollars. ($$) even on a used swap, the converter is always necessarry to replace unless you like taking chances.
2 - the gears and hydraulics are way more expensive to fix and replace. And that's if the computers are okay. Any used one is going to require replacing hoses and clamps and other parts due to age.($$$)
3 - The thing is seriously heavy. My manual is only 62lbs. I don't need special tools or a lift to get it out. needing special tools costs even more money.
I purchased a mini-Van with an AT, but it was my first vehicle with an AT. The 4 or 5 other vehicles I have owned were MTs, and I miss them all. No problems ever with the powertrains. Nada, zip. Super reliable. Super cost effective. Fun fun fun to drive. I was always actively engaged in the process of controlling the vehicle.
I think next go around, I want a highly stripped down MT vehicle without all the unnecessary junk.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
You and me both.
It can be done, but it's not easy.
Best Regards,
Shipo
This drove me nuts with a few cars I looked at 2 years ago. The Subaru, you couldn't have leather or a power seat. Hyundai (Sonata) and VW Passat, no moonroof (or power in the VW IIRC). I'm sure there were other cases, but you get the idea.
At least BMW still offers the good stuff with a stick, if you are shopping a higher price point.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And that's why I drive a 4 cyl EX-L with Navi. It was hard to find a fully loaded model with a stick, but not impossible. :shades:
Last quote I got, $900 for Katskins, $1300 with heaters.
You can find used manual Foresters, though, keep looking. I kept mine for 9 long years. :shades:
You can get a brand new Forester with a manual for about $18k.
I am considering taking a trip to the lower 48 in the next few months to drive an F350 down to my mother in Oregon. If we do this, I will purchase a slightly used Subaru wagon, drive it around to visit family down there, then back up to Alaska. Once I get home and clean it up, I will sell it. Regrettably, that means I would buy an automatic as I do not want the headache of looking for a manual nor the headache of trying to sell it again. :sick:
I am still not sure we will make the trip, but I am doing a feasibility study on it now to determine if it is even worth the effort. I would be satisfied with just having the car pay for itself (not including fuel, food, etc for trip, as the car is not the purpose of the trip), but my wife wants it to mostly finance the trip. That might be a tough sell.
That's a gutsy move, getting into the used car business to finance a trip...
Are Subaru's getting that much of a premium up there? My brother is up in Fairbanks and he only ever drives Toyota's, I guess the Japanese reputation for reliability means a lot more when breaking down on the highway means surviving -40f weather!
Good luck with your trip.
It really all depends on how good of a deal I can work out down south. For a used Subaru, I should be able to pick one up for ~$2000 less than what I could here in Fairbanks without much effort. However, now I am digressing from MT discussion altogether.
I love MTs, and unfortunately the only vehicle I own with a manual right now is my 1969 Chevy C20 pickup. That said, the automatic transmission on the Subaru is far more versatile in adverse conditions than the manual... but I still preferred the manual! It killed me to have to sell the car, but I still think it was the best choice.
Example: their market share in Vermont is FOURTEEN times what it is in Florida. :surprise:
To shop a 2-3 year old used one I'd give myself a good 3 months or so to find the right one.
Porsche USA
I think our days driving a slushbox MDX are looking numbered. Porsche and BMW offered manuals in there least powerful base models, but Porsche has finally offered it in their more powerful V8 "S" that is the most popular model.
Doesn't help the buyer looking for a $30k SUV with a stick, but it reinforces my position that if there are consumers out there with a manual preference and money in their wallet, somebody will serve the market. And, in this case, the somebody happens to be a company that sells a tiny fraction of the volume of the Big three, but is more PROFITABLE than all of them combined.
Face only a mother, or a Porscheholic, could love unfortunately.
:surprise:
As far as the "face", maybe I'm unwittingly becoming a Porscheholic. Although it certainly doesn't have the appeal to me of a 911 or Cayman, I'd still gladly take it over the square box flat face exterior style of the Range Rover. I know it's considered "classic" by some, but their proportions remind me too much of our old Isuzu Trooper. And even though I'm sure RR improved their driving dynamics over the years, the shape hasn't changed much from a colleague's old Range Rover Country that used to sway in a mild crosswind on the highway. I think that Country model had the lowest lateral cornering ability of any vehicle tested by Road and Track, 0.03g below our tipsy Trooper.
In any event, I think the MDX will be with us for awhile to come, as my wife continues to utilize the third row seating too often to justify a $40,000 trade-up to the GTS just to get a stick. And, apparantly, it only seats 4, replacing the second row 3 seat bench with 2 bucket sport seats. Heck, for our family, the only thing the Cayenne GTS would give us over our 911 is a bigger trunk.