Sounds like the typical dealer cost.. I'm guessing an independent could bring that down to the $450-$550 range..
Perhaps...it was a Saturday so dealer was open. I had planned to check elsewhere on monday but the seller changed his mind about selling the car "as is" and decided he was going to get the clutch fixed himself.
Even the few mfrs that still offer the option of a manual trans. ( on non-EconoBoxes ) - including Porsche on their Turbo, and BMW on the 335s are building automatics that are quicker in acceleration.
With quicker shifts ( according to GM ) and a more aggressive final drive ratio available, I’m expecting that the 2008 Corvette A6 ( I drive a 2007 ) will be quicker than the M6, under many conditions.
Not that straight-line acceleration, or any cold set of numbers, fully defines any car, but such test results as C+D’s – as well as comments about well-managed ‘rev match on downshift’ certainly imply to me that the automatics continue to advance. While most manual trans. seem like they have not.
I could be wrong.
- Ray Who will likely test drive a 335 when the time comes to trade . . .
well, I take the numbers from the magazines with a grain of salt.
By that, I mean that I (and I doubt many others) drive like they do. I have a stick, and my wife has an AT.
I don't rev my car up to 5K at stop lights, and then drop the clutch, and shift up at redline.
I don't brake torque my wifes minivan, and then floor it to make it shift at redline.
And since that is how C&D gets performance numbers, it isn't a direct comparison.
Actually, the best magazine for "real world" test results is consumers reports. They drive the cars like a normal person would (at least one driving their own car!), and the manual usually has an advantage.
One key thing is the size of the engine. IMO, the bigger the motor, the smaller the difference between stick and AT. An auto takes a much bigger toll on something like a Fit than it does on a 550i BMW, or a COrvette.
So, yes, ATs are continually being improved, and have closed the gap in many applications as to 0-60 and mpg (at least on the highway). But so what? The fundemental differences still exist (sense of control, etc.).
Yes, Foresters can definitely tow, 2400 lbs nowadays I believe.
Plus they are pre-wired. The harness is plug-and-play. I installed the hitch and harness myself, it was very easy. 7 bolts, one grommet, and just plug in the harness. Very easy.
My guess is I towed about 1500 lbs with my '98 Forester. The new ones have a bit more power and torque and are rated to tow 20% more weight than mine was.
My loads were mostly wood chips for a large playground in my back yard. I'd haul in about 3 yards at a time, often wet. I once towed 2 yards of pea gravel and that was a HEAVY load, boy was it heavy! I was really pushing the limits that time.
I also did a couple of 3 hour runs to my beach condo and back, hauling furniture. No problem with the long trip, temp gauge never moved.
The Forester ran strong for 9 years, 'til I sold it. I still miss the utility it had. We just needed a bigger family car (2 kids, a nanny, a dog, plus luggage).
Jeep says 2000lbs with the towing "kit" - which looks like a giant U-shaped bracket that bolts on - sort of similar to how they used to make Volvo 240s able to tow. 1000lbs normally.
The Patriot seems to be the lowest cost full-time 4x4/full time AWD system on the market that's any sort of SUV or truck. Of course, it's full-time only when you engage it manually, which many people like myself prefer.
It is just under 2000 pounds. So a Forester might work. I will put it back on my list. We are down to two people and one dog so it should be plenty big enough. Still I am surprised that both Honda and Toyota have left the manual off of their two offerings.
I guy I know recently got a patriot AWD 5 speed manual. I sat in it, and it was pretty nice. Extremely roomy. He loves it, and said he got over 30 MPG on a trip to NH from NJ, even with a canoe on it. Said it drives very nice.
I kind like the Patriot's packaging, it's Forester-sized and the price is right.
The interior is a bit utilitarian, though, just make sure you're OK with that. It's based on the Dodge Caliber platform, but Jeep takes it to a differnet level with even a low-range option and a trail rating.
But you can get the off-road options with the Freedom Drive I/4x4 model. That would be fine - like having full-time 4wd High(no Low range). Good for dirt roads, rain, and the like.
Plus, if you look at the manual gearing differences versus the CVT, it's not a huge difference in first gear versus the CVT.(something like 9 or 10:1 vs 19:1. A Wrangler and most 4x4s with a proper low-range is 35:1-40:1(Rubicon).
The Subaru is also nice, of course. My uncle has a Forester and loves it.
Inside Line (that's us!) is giving away a trip to Frankfurt to see the auto show and drive a Saturn Astra around for a few days. You have to write an essay to enter, and then you get to blog about your trip on Inside Line.
US residents, valid driver license, a clean driving record and a valid passport, and you have to be able to drive stick..
Enter by 8/22 and be ready to travel from 9/8 through 9/13 (so hurry up and start composing!).
I've got the class 2 (3500lb) "Hidden Hitch" on my Legacy wagon, and got the "plug and play" wire harness adapter. It took me about 45 minutes to install the hitch, about 2 hours to find the stupid connector, and about 10 minutes to hook it up once I found it.
I have pulled the 5x8 and 5x10 (which has surge brakes) trailers with it and had no issues. Well, except for that learning curve remember how to back up with the trailer :P. Oh, and a pop-up (with surge brakes) and a motorcycle trailer with a crotch-rocket on it. The Subie with the big uHaul trailer is still easier than the 90s Accord with the 4x6/5x8 uHaul trailer.
I have to say, the majority of the time its used for a bike rack, but when we go bargain shopping on craigslist or at an estate sale, its nice to know we can get our new-found treasure home.
I wasn't thinking real off road here. We have a serious rock crawler Yota that replaced our old CJ with a 8 inch lift.
I just wanted a vehicle with a bit more room and AWD or 4WD because of the few days of snow we get. I have just been disappointed in the fuel mileage of most of the AWD offerings compared to some of the little FWD sedans.
Yeah, the trailer I borrowed was 5'x8' and weighed about 700 lbs dry. The Forester towed it just fine on many occasions, including those 3 hour trips to the beach.
A great article. It's at the bottom-end of "trail-worthy", but it does do real off-road. The only difference between the Freedom Drive 1 and 2 is the CVT and low-ratio.
In snow, it'll eat it up like no AWD will(well, maybe a Subaru, but let's hope the snow isn't very high or the streets are plowed - lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0 Why part-time AWD systems are junk. A Rav-4 in locked mode or a Patriot wouldn't have problems at all.(except the OLD Rav-4 could be had in manual. Toyota doesn't even offer the Tundra in manual, they've gone so far into the automatic territory lately...)
Agree. I am just waiting for all the Consumer Reports (CR) haters to say that the people testing for CR don't know anything about cars, just washing machines!!
Subaru has improved ground clearance, both Forester and Outback offer more than 8" now.
The problem is actually long overhangs, which hurt the approach and departure angles. You're more likely to get stuck on an incline vs. high-centering.
Yup I had less problems clearing a snow bank in my demo forrester then I did in a Jeep Liberty this past winter.
The solid rear axle of the Liberty dragged through the snow and almost got me stuck. In the forrester I had a lot less drag and just slid over the top of the snow.
Another advantage is they're so light, so they don't "sink".
I took my Forester on the beach several times, and it was great in the sand. Just air down to 18 psi, drive all over the place. No worries.
It was funny to see an HD pickup get stuck. He had not aired down, and I'm sure his truck weighs 3 times what the Forester did.
This was always fun when driving out to the Pismo dunes or Crawley Lake. You have to drive over the sand to get to the camping area or the water. Drop the tire pressures down and go gentle on the gas and you're fine.
Even the few mfrs that still offer the option of a manual trans. ( on non-EconoBoxes ) - including Porsche on their Turbo, and BMW on the 335s are building automatics that are quicker in acceleration.
You forgot to include the fine print. A 911 Turbo Tiptronic has a "launch control" process in order to get that quicker acceleration. You have to hold the brake, push the gas to 5,000 +/- rpms, allow the turbos to spool up for 3-4 seconds, and then release. If you add that time to the 3.4 second 0-60 claim by Porsche, you get a nice 0-60 time of about 8.4 seconds. I'll take my actual 3.55 seconds that I was timed at with my 6-speed at the track a few weeks ago - and I did with a smooth 3,000 rpm start, not a 6,000 rpm clutch dump.
With regards to the 335i, BUNK. Those tests were done a year apart, possibly with different drivers. My nephew, using the same sensible technique as I did, was timed at 4.85 seconds in his 335i manual transmission.
Clearly, BMW and Porsche make some fine automatic transmssions that have narrowed the straight line acceleration gap. But you hit the nail on the head that no set of cold numbers defines a car. And if you think the manual transmission has not advanced, try driving a 997 model 911S or Turbo. Back to back with a 10+ year old 993 or earlier model, if you can find one. The 993 required leg squats as part of your pre-drive routine and extreme finesse to hit the gears. The 997 is as crisp and precise as a laser cut scalpal and is as easy to get used to as your average Honda.
I did finally get the opportunity to drive a Ferrari 430 F1 and concede that it's SMG is the best I've driven. Far, far superior to the crazy unit BMW uses in the M5. But, we are talking about a $11k additional charge for a transmission that will cost $20k to replace if it breaks and is potentially subject to electronic gremlins. And their 6 speed manual is a blissful unit. So, I have to ask, why bother?
P.S. Over the past 10 months I have had no fewer than 3 offers to "trade" my 2007 911 Turbo 6-speed with people that bought the Tiptronic version, only to find out they didn't like it. In one case, the buyer took a $15k hit on a car with under 400 miles and bought a 6-speed manual.
Yet I will back the C+D numbers up with this confirmation:
Edmunds tested a manual trans. 335 & then an automatic.
The automatic was tested at the same venue ( I presume, based on the elevation being identical ) and at an ambient temperature over 15 degrees higher, and in their testing, the automatic was also quicker.
If you are aware of any testing where a manual and an automatic version of the 335 were tested back-to-back on the same day, by the same driver, please post?
Keep in mind that the driver makes a big difference in these tests, at least for the manual.
It takes a little bit of time to get used to a particular car, find the sweet spot to release the cluthc, feel comfortable with the shifter, etc.
A test driver that is new to the car might not be getting optimal times right out of the box. Or, he might not have been a real good stick driver.
Remember, andbody can launch an automatic! Not really any skill involved, just punch it and hold on.
But, as I have said before, drag racing start 0-60 times don't have much relation to real world driving. But I will concede that modern ATs, at least in high powered cars, have become much more efficient (at least quicker) in recent years.
One thing though, do the same test with some smaller, more economical cars (say, a Honda Fit) and see if the AT beats the stick.
Oh, and I know that turbos tend to work better with one type of tranny, but I just can't remember if they are better or worse with the automatic.
From Edmunds 335 ( automatic ) acceleration test comments:
Acceleration Comments: Left in Drive with the traction/stability control on, the car attempts to quell wheelspin and stumbles off the line at full throttle. Even with traction control shut off, the automatic transmission would short-shift to second to quell wheelspin. Finally, with traction control defeated and manual gear selection, I maintained just the right amount of wheelspin and timed the 1-2 upshift at redline. Doing so lowered the 0-60 time by more than 1 second. The car pulls hard throughout the rev range, as if it were a naturally aspirated engine. Upshifts are blazingly quick and strangely shock-free.
Left in Drive with the traction/stability control on, the car attempts to quell wheelspin and stumbles off the line at full throttle. Even with traction control shut off, the automatic transmission would short-shift to second to quell wheelspin. Finally, with traction control defeated and manual gear selection, I maintained just the right amount of wheelspin and timed the 1-2 upshift at redline. Doing so lowered the 0-60 time by more than 1 second.
Am I the only one that sees the humor in the above?
Driven normally, the automatic is slow. Putting it into "manual mode", turning traction control off and taking it up to redline shifts, it can essentially match a manual transmission in terms of acceleration. :surprise: Do you have to add to the 0-60 time all of the steps you need to remember to do there? :confuse: .
And what about a real world driving situation, rather than stop light drag racing. I'm cruising along the highway in 6th and need to accelerate quickly to get around slow traffic. Do I need to switch to manual mode and turn off LSD before or after I signal a lane change? Sorry, I can do a 6th to 3rd or 4th downshift in my sleep. I guess I just don't have the skill to drive a modern automatic.
“And what about a real world driving situation, rather than stop light drag racing. I'm cruising along the highway in 6th and need to accelerate quickly to get around slow traffic. Do I need to switch to manual mode and turn off LSD before or after I signal a lane change? Sorry, I can do a 6th to 3rd or 4th downshift in my sleep. I guess I just don't have the skill to drive a modern automatic.”
From BMW, regarding the 6 speed automatic \ Steptronic and just such a scenario as you describe:
“The new six-speed automatic transmission completes every gearshift process faster than even the vast majority of sporting drivers experienced in shifting gears manually. This is borne out particularly clearly by the extreme demand made by BMW’s development engineers in defining a kick-down signal at a speed of 70 km/h or 50 mph in sixth gear. The requirement even in this case is to ensure maximum acceleration – and precisely that is what the new six-speed automatic transmission provides, responding in just 100 milliseconds to the driver’s commands. At the same time the automatic transmission sends a positive force pulse to the engine, which immediately increases its speed from approximately 1,400 to more than 5,000 rpm while the transmission itself shifts back from sixth to second gear.”
This appears likely translated from German, so not quite 100% US English, but the point is that this automatic ( and some others ) will perform a 6 to 4, 6 to 3, or even 6 to 2 direct downshift, skipping intermediate gears. All that is required is a very quick depression of the accelerator.
That is true we have the same ZF 6 speed in many of our Rovers that BMW uses and when you give them the pedal hard they will skip a gear or two when downshifting.
Still the point about going through all that trouble to launch the car just to equal or slightly better the manual is well made.
And BMW. Great car company, for sure, but if they have so brilliantly mastered the 100 millisecond downshift from 6 to 4th 3rd or 2nd, depending upon the exact situation, how is it that they haven't mastered the relatively easier side of controlling inopportune upshifting under hard acceleration?
And I don't really buy BMW's selfless promotion. In order to to induce a downshift of 3 or 4 gears, you need to MASH the accelerator. There may be an occassion when I need or want to do that, but not normally. I can downshift from 6th to 3rd, rev match the shift and then take off as quickly as I CHOOSE, without having to force the shift on an automatic with a lead foot, only to then mash the brake after the pass is completed.
If you think you can do a better job of controlling a car using only your right foot and relying on BMW's slushbox, go for it. I don't buy it. Nor do most people I know that have a left foot that still works.
I am with habitat on this one. One problem with most ATs is that they like to upshift ASAP, and are reluctant to downshift. So, they end up lugging along somewhat on the highway.
So, when you look for some more acceleration, at first they resist the temptation to give it to you.
You end up having to punch the gas hard enough to initiate a downshift, so the car ends up (after 1-2 secs usually) dropping a gear or 2 and lurchin gforward (making the obnoxious AT engine sound).
As H said, you end up having to nail the brakes, in which case it upshifts right back up, and you start the yoyoing process again.
I think the fundemantal difference between MT and AT (or maybe it is their drivers?), is that the MT lends itself to anticipating a situation, and the AT is more reactionary. That, and the tendancy for an AT to do something because it felt like it, not because I wanted it to.
At least with my stick, if it is in the wrong gear, I pretty much have to blame myself!
Anyway, I guess some of this can be overcome with a manumatic, if you actually drive it in that mode, which I didn't think most people did (at least not on the highway, or in normal driving).
Although I will admit that as far as ATs go, the BMW unit is certainly state of the art.
I based my statement upon inopportune upshifting on your previous post quoting the Edmunds review:
Left in Drive with the traction/stability control on, the car attempts to quell wheelspin and stumbles off the line at full throttle. Even with traction control shut off, the automatic transmission would short-shift to second to quell wheelspin. Finally, with traction control defeated and manual gear selection, I maintained just the right amount of wheelspin and timed the 1-2 upshift at redline.
Lest anyone get the wrong impression, I'm probably closer to Tiger Woods on the golf course than I am to Michael Schumacher behind the wheel of a sports car. And I rarely break 80 even with a foot wedge or two, if that says anything. I haven't even mastered heel-toe shifting in my 911 (please don't publicize this).
But, as stickguy said, if I'm in the wrong gear, I know who to blame. When I test drove the M3 SMG a couple of years ago, it hesitated slightly from a dead stop (i.e. not drag racing, but making left hand turns) and in spite of claimed "xxx millisecond downshifts", seemed to hesitate at equally inopportune times. To the point where I asked the dealer if this was normal, or was I doing something wrong.
I don't know how you quantify "control" in this world of 0-60 times and millisecond shift times. But in my subjective judgement, I've yet to drive any automatic that had virtues that outweighed the negatives in this regard.
I know they're not for everyone, but I love my manual transmissions and have made it the subject of today's blog entry in the Alternate Route Be sure to leave your comments! :P
My one gripe with the v6 6-speed Accord is the metal shifter, gets warm in Texas. I end up shifting with my fingertips only until the AC cools it down.
about some preferring manuals. Some just simply like them better. The question has always come down to if manuals will always be offered? If BMW and Porsche is spending the R&D money to develop and sell new SMG and DSG transmissions and they are supposed to be drivers cars you have to ask why. It isn't like they don't already have a good manual and most automatic drivers aren't looking for manual performance. The day of the manual in most mainstream cars is already fading. More than 90m percent of the cars sold in the US are automatics and with the introduction of the CVT many entry level cars seem to be moving in that direction as well. The family people movers don't offer manuals. I haven't seen a Mini Van will a manual in years. The most popular vehicle in the US offers a manual, the Pickup truck, but I would venture to say 99 percent of them are automatic. So while there may be many valid reasons for some to prefer manuals it gets harder and harder to find them. Like I posted Honda and Toyota gave up on the manual for the CR-v and Rav4 all together. You might prefer one but if you want a Rav4 or Cr-v you aren't getting one.
I continue to neglect regular maintenance on my Quest. I think I'm hoping deep down that it'll throw a rod or something and give me an excuse to go test drive a Mazda5. My wife misses driving stick too....
Now just stick the Mazdaspeed 3 turbo 4 cylinder in their and have a real fun time.
Opel / Vauxhall already does this in Europe .. the Zafira comes with the 2.0L turbo (same as what is found in the Saturn Sky Red Line), but, surprisingly, it doesn't discuss what kind of transmission choices there are:
You sound a bit like the nagging stock market bear who keeps claiming the sky is just about ready to fall and then, when there is a 400 point drop in the DJIA, wants to proclaim victory. Well, even with the recent market volitility, the $50k I put in a managed equity fund when I sold my original BMW M1 is still now worth slightly over $2 million. Had I put it in the highest paying CD's over that time, it would be worth just under $180,000. I'm not a blindly optimistic bull market advocate by any means, but I hope all this negativity from you doesn't creep into your home life or financial planning.
In any event, since I happen to own a BMW M5 and a Porsche 911 Turbo, I think I can say with reasonable confidence that their advancements in SMG and (soon) DSG transmissions may ultimately make their slushbox automatics obsolete, but not their true manual transmissions. BMW had to rather embarassingly reintroduce the M5 manual transmssion because of an outcry from their loyalists. And when you are selling $100k sedans, it makes reasonable sense to listen to your customers. Less so, if you are selling $25k pick-up trucks.
Have a good day and cheer up. Your broken record approach to forecasting the demise of the manual transmission isn't going to make it happen. Many GM engineers and executives predicted the same thing back in the 1950's when the automatic transmission really came into it's own. And yet 50 year's later, Porsche makes boatloads more money than GM selling a fraction as many cars, 60%+ of which are still manual transmissions. GM may have weaned the manual from their line-up, but many Americans with discretionary income weaned GM fron their list of brands they would consider.
I predict the manual transmission availability in a 911 will outlast GM as a viable public company.
And what percentage of the market do you predict manuals will hold onto? But still many Americans have not turned to the Germans for their cars, they turned to the Japanese and isn't Toyota bigger and has more money in the bank than BMW and Porche combined? If the future of the manual is in the hands of the Uber rich I wonder how that translates? More than 90 percent of the americans driving today are not buying manuals. What percentages are buying Porche and BMW? And if we as a nation turn to hybrids where will the manual stand?
I may agree that I am a bit skeptical of the Germans to hold the interest of the rest of the world as we look to more and more dependable cars. But GM is not the only company moving away from manuals. The juggernaught Toyota is offering and selling more cars in Automatic configuration than Porche will sell 911s in the next ten years.
I don't see the sky falling but I do see many problems for the manual in the future. Having just started shopping for some small crossovers I have already discovered there are fewer choices in manuals than I had even five years ago.
Or is it your contention that I will have more choices of manuals from the big companies in the future?
But still many Americans have not turned to the Germans for their cars, they turned to the Japanese and isn't Toyota bigger and has more money in the bank than BMW and Porche combined?
Go re-read your post that I responded to. YOU cited Porsche and BMW as examples to support your dire prediction that the manual transmission is on it's last legs. Then you turn around and claim these are not good examples, but rather cars for the "uber" rich. What the hell is it? Clearly, you seem to have a bad case of ADD in your shotgun like approach to trying to make your point here, whatever it is.
Your apparantly sudden realization that the automatic transmission is taking over the world is embarassingly silly. Wake up. It's only been about 40 years since the automatic has completely replaced "three on the tree" offerings by Ford and GM. If Edmunds was around back then, you'd probably have 20,000 posts to your credit expressing that "the end is near". There is nothing that you are noticing in 2007 trends that wasn't the case in 1967.
If you want a small crossover, why don't you give the X3 6-speed a try. In addition to a manual transmission, I'm sure it will outhandle and be a far more enjoyable to drive car than just about anything else you are considering. And you don't even need to be uber rich.
Sorry, did we have a movement in the US towards Hybrids in 1967?
A car or truck is nothing more than a tool. A more complicated tool than a hand drill but a tool none the less. The transmission is nothing more than a piece of that tool. In the market place today more than 90 percent of the population have decided the manual is not a necessary part of the tool they are buying. Can that be denied?
I agree with Habitat that there may always be a niche market for manuals. But I would add the caveat that we have to assume the country will not embrace the green economy because of government mandates. We already know that once the government mandates the skid control option after 2007 part of the control some feel the manual adds will dissapere.
Are you assuming these factors will have no effect on manuals?
The subject of this forum is simply our opinion on the future of manual transmissions. It has evolved into the future of the dog leg. The manual has been redefined to be only transmissions with third pedals. That being the case how do you predict the manual will stand up against the present trend of automation in the name of safety? How will it stand up in the quest for fuel economy and hybrid drive or even EV vehicles?
Look at the new generation of drivers coming into the market today. Where will the future defenders of tradition verses technology come from? What do these trends say to you? You tell my why more than 90 percent of the market in the US drives automatics? You tell me why two of the most dependable manufacturers sold in the US today stopped making manuals available After all if they will always be available or desirable why would Toyota and Honda stop offering them in their two small crossovers?
Like another poster said earlier I wouldn't want to have to turn to a german car simply because the car of my choice didn't come in a manual.
Comments
Perhaps...it was a Saturday so dealer was open. I had planned to check elsewhere on monday but the seller changed his mind about selling the car "as is" and decided he was going to get the clutch fixed himself.
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/13548/tested-2007-bmw-335i-coupe-automatic- -performance-payoffs-page3.html
Even the few mfrs that still offer the option of a manual trans. ( on non-EconoBoxes ) - including Porsche on their Turbo, and BMW on the 335s are building automatics that are quicker in acceleration.
With quicker shifts ( according to GM ) and a more aggressive final drive ratio available, I’m expecting that the 2008 Corvette A6 ( I drive a 2007 ) will be quicker than the M6, under many conditions.
Not that straight-line acceleration, or any cold set of numbers, fully defines any car, but such test results as C+D’s – as well as comments about well-managed ‘rev match on downshift’ certainly imply to me that the automatics continue to advance. While most manual trans. seem like they have not.
I could be wrong.
- Ray
Who will likely test drive a 335 when the time comes to trade . . .
By that, I mean that I (and I doubt many others) drive like they do. I have a stick, and my wife has an AT.
I don't rev my car up to 5K at stop lights, and then drop the clutch, and shift up at redline.
I don't brake torque my wifes minivan, and then floor it to make it shift at redline.
And since that is how C&D gets performance numbers, it isn't a direct comparison.
Actually, the best magazine for "real world" test results is consumers reports. They drive the cars like a normal person would (at least one driving their own car!), and the manual usually has an advantage.
One key thing is the size of the engine. IMO, the bigger the motor, the smaller the difference between stick and AT. An auto takes a much bigger toll on something like a Fit than it does on a 550i BMW, or a COrvette.
So, yes, ATs are continually being improved, and have closed the gap in many applications as to 0-60 and mpg (at least on the highway). But so what? The fundemental differences still exist (sense of control, etc.).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Plus they are pre-wired. The harness is plug-and-play. I installed the hitch and harness myself, it was very easy. 7 bolts, one grommet, and just plug in the harness. Very easy.
My guess is I towed about 1500 lbs with my '98 Forester. The new ones have a bit more power and torque and are rated to tow 20% more weight than mine was.
My loads were mostly wood chips for a large playground in my back yard. I'd haul in about 3 yards at a time, often wet. I once towed 2 yards of pea gravel and that was a HEAVY load, boy was it heavy! I was really pushing the limits that time.
I also did a couple of 3 hour runs to my beach condo and back, hauling furniture. No problem with the long trip, temp gauge never moved.
The Forester ran strong for 9 years, 'til I sold it. I still miss the utility it had. We just needed a bigger family car (2 kids, a nanny, a dog, plus luggage).
How much does your trailer weigh?
The Patriot seems to be the lowest cost full-time 4x4/full time AWD system on the market that's any sort of SUV or truck. Of course, it's full-time only when you engage it manually, which many people like myself prefer.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The interior is a bit utilitarian, though, just make sure you're OK with that. It's based on the Dodge Caliber platform, but Jeep takes it to a differnet level with even a low-range option and a trail rating.
They just set up the CVT to give you a super low granny gear combined with a decently low final drive.
You can't get the low range option with the manual transmission.
Plus, if you look at the manual gearing differences versus the CVT, it's not a huge difference in first gear versus the CVT.(something like 9 or 10:1 vs 19:1. A Wrangler and most 4x4s with a proper low-range is 35:1-40:1(Rubicon).
The Subaru is also nice, of course. My uncle has a Forester and loves it.
US residents, valid driver license, a clean driving record and a valid passport, and you have to be able to drive stick..
Enter by 8/22 and be ready to travel from 9/8 through 9/13 (so hurry up and start composing!).
Heh. There is some justice in the world afterall...
All my Rovers, except for the LR2, have around 45:1 or better and that is with an automatic.
The Manual Transmission Defenders are around 65:1.
The H3, overall bad vehicle that it is, I think offers a package to go beyond 65:1.
I can't find the first gear ratio for the Rubicon but with a 4:1 XCase and a 4.10 final drive it must have a crawl ratio well past 65:1.
I have pulled the 5x8 and 5x10 (which has surge brakes) trailers with it and had no issues. Well, except for that learning curve remember how to back up with the trailer :P. Oh, and a pop-up (with surge brakes) and a motorcycle trailer with a crotch-rocket on it. The Subie with the big uHaul trailer is still easier than the 90s Accord with the 4x6/5x8 uHaul trailer.
I have to say, the majority of the time its used for a bike rack, but when we go bargain shopping on craigslist or at an estate sale, its nice to know we can get our new-found treasure home.
I just wanted a vehicle with a bit more room and AWD or 4WD because of the few days of snow we get. I have just been disappointed in the fuel mileage of most of the AWD offerings compared to some of the little FWD sedans.
A great article. It's at the bottom-end of "trail-worthy", but it does do real off-road. The only difference between the Freedom Drive 1 and 2 is the CVT and low-ratio.
In snow, it'll eat it up like no AWD will(well, maybe a Subaru, but let's hope the snow isn't very high or the streets are plowed - lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0
Why part-time AWD systems are junk. A Rav-4 in locked mode or a Patriot wouldn't have problems at all.(except the OLD Rav-4 could be had in manual. Toyota doesn't even offer the Tundra in manual, they've gone so far into the automatic territory lately...)
The problem is actually long overhangs, which hurt the approach and departure angles. You're more likely to get stuck on an incline vs. high-centering.
The solid rear axle of the Liberty dragged through the snow and almost got me stuck. In the forrester I had a lot less drag and just slid over the top of the snow.
I took my Forester on the beach several times, and it was great in the sand. Just air down to 18 psi, drive all over the place. No worries.
It was funny to see an HD pickup get stuck. He had not aired down, and I'm sure his truck weighs 3 times what the Forester did.
I took my Forester on the beach several times, and it was great in the sand. Just air down to 18 psi, drive all over the place. No worries.
It was funny to see an HD pickup get stuck. He had not aired down, and I'm sure his truck weighs 3 times what the Forester did.
This was always fun when driving out to the Pismo dunes or Crawley Lake. You have to drive over the sand to get to the camping area or the water. Drop the tire pressures down and go gentle on the gas and you're fine.
You forgot to include the fine print. A 911 Turbo Tiptronic has a "launch control" process in order to get that quicker acceleration. You have to hold the brake, push the gas to 5,000 +/- rpms, allow the turbos to spool up for 3-4 seconds, and then release. If you add that time to the 3.4 second 0-60 claim by Porsche, you get a nice 0-60 time of about 8.4 seconds. I'll take my actual 3.55 seconds that I was timed at with my 6-speed at the track a few weeks ago - and I did with a smooth 3,000 rpm start, not a 6,000 rpm clutch dump.
With regards to the 335i, BUNK. Those tests were done a year apart, possibly with different drivers. My nephew, using the same sensible technique as I did, was timed at 4.85 seconds in his 335i manual transmission.
Clearly, BMW and Porsche make some fine automatic transmssions that have narrowed the straight line acceleration gap. But you hit the nail on the head that no set of cold numbers defines a car. And if you think the manual transmission has not advanced, try driving a 997 model 911S or Turbo. Back to back with a 10+ year old 993 or earlier model, if you can find one. The 993 required leg squats as part of your pre-drive routine and extreme finesse to hit the gears. The 997 is as crisp and precise as a laser cut scalpal and is as easy to get used to as your average Honda.
I did finally get the opportunity to drive a Ferrari 430 F1 and concede that it's SMG is the best I've driven. Far, far superior to the crazy unit BMW uses in the M5. But, we are talking about a $11k additional charge for a transmission that will cost $20k to replace if it breaks and is potentially subject to electronic gremlins. And their 6 speed manual is a blissful unit. So, I have to ask, why bother?
P.S. Over the past 10 months I have had no fewer than 3 offers to "trade" my 2007 911 Turbo 6-speed with people that bought the Tiptronic version, only to find out they didn't like it. In one case, the buyer took a $15k hit on a car with under 400 miles and bought a 6-speed manual.
Yet I will back the C+D numbers up with this confirmation:
Edmunds tested a manual trans. 335 & then an automatic.
The automatic was tested at the same venue ( I presume, based on the elevation being identical ) and at an ambient temperature over 15 degrees higher, and in their testing, the automatic was also quicker.
Manual:
0 – 60: 5.0
Quarter: 13.6 @ 102.5
Automatic:
0 - 60 (sec): 4.8
1/4 Mile (sec @ mph): 13.3 @ 105.9
If you are aware of any testing where a manual and an automatic version of the 335 were tested back-to-back on the same day, by the same driver, please post?
Thanks,
- Ray
Apparently filled with BUNK . . .
Keep in mind that the driver makes a big difference in these tests, at least for the manual.
It takes a little bit of time to get used to a particular car, find the sweet spot to release the cluthc, feel comfortable with the shifter, etc.
A test driver that is new to the car might not be getting optimal times right out of the box. Or, he might not have been a real good stick driver.
Remember, andbody can launch an automatic! Not really any skill involved, just punch it and hold on.
But, as I have said before, drag racing start 0-60 times don't have much relation to real world driving. But I will concede that modern ATs, at least in high powered cars, have become much more efficient (at least quicker) in recent years.
One thing though, do the same test with some smaller, more economical cars (say, a Honda Fit) and see if the AT beats the stick.
Oh, and I know that turbos tend to work better with one type of tranny, but I just can't remember if they are better or worse with the automatic.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Acceleration Comments:
Left in Drive with the traction/stability control on, the car attempts to quell wheelspin and stumbles off the line at full throttle. Even with traction control shut off, the automatic transmission would short-shift to second to quell wheelspin. Finally, with traction control defeated and manual gear selection, I maintained just the right amount of wheelspin and timed the 1-2 upshift at redline. Doing so lowered the 0-60 time by more than 1 second. The car pulls hard throughout the rev range, as if it were a naturally aspirated engine. Upshifts are blazingly quick and strangely shock-free.
Am I the only one that sees the humor in the above?
Driven normally, the automatic is slow. Putting it into "manual mode", turning traction control off and taking it up to redline shifts, it can essentially match a manual transmission in terms of acceleration. :surprise: Do you have to add to the 0-60 time all of the steps you need to remember to do there? :confuse: .
And what about a real world driving situation, rather than stop light drag racing. I'm cruising along the highway in 6th and need to accelerate quickly to get around slow traffic. Do I need to switch to manual mode and turn off LSD before or after I signal a lane change? Sorry, I can do a 6th to 3rd or 4th downshift in my sleep. I guess I just don't have the skill to drive a modern automatic.
Let me think...ummm, oh yeah, I know...you step on the gas pedal in an automatic.
From BMW, regarding the 6 speed automatic \ Steptronic and just such a scenario as you describe:
“The new six-speed automatic transmission completes every gearshift process faster than even the vast majority of sporting drivers experienced in shifting gears manually. This is borne out particularly clearly by the extreme demand made by BMW’s development engineers in defining a kick-down signal at a speed of 70 km/h or 50 mph in sixth gear. The requirement even in this case is to ensure maximum acceleration – and precisely that is what the new six-speed automatic transmission provides, responding in just 100 milliseconds to the driver’s commands. At the same time the automatic transmission sends
a positive force pulse to the engine, which immediately increases its speed from approximately 1,400 to more than 5,000 rpm while the transmission itself shifts back from sixth to second gear.”
This appears likely translated from German, so not quite 100% US English, but the point is that this automatic ( and some others ) will perform a 6 to 4, 6 to 3, or even 6 to 2 direct downshift, skipping intermediate gears. All that is required is a very quick depression of the accelerator.
- Ray
Thinking most drivers have this skill . . .
Still the point about going through all that trouble to launch the car just to equal or slightly better the manual is well made.
You may be giving me too much credit.
And BMW. Great car company, for sure, but if they have so brilliantly mastered the 100 millisecond downshift from 6 to 4th 3rd or 2nd, depending upon the exact situation, how is it that they haven't mastered the relatively easier side of controlling inopportune upshifting under hard acceleration?
And I don't really buy BMW's selfless promotion. In order to to induce a downshift of 3 or 4 gears, you need to MASH the accelerator. There may be an occassion when I need or want to do that, but not normally. I can downshift from 6th to 3rd, rev match the shift and then take off as quickly as I CHOOSE, without having to force the shift on an automatic with a lead foot, only to then mash the brake after the pass is completed.
If you think you can do a better job of controlling a car using only your right foot and relying on BMW's slushbox, go for it. I don't buy it. Nor do most people I know that have a left foot that still works.
I don't understand this statement - under exactly what circumstances?
Thanks,
- Ray
So, when you look for some more acceleration, at first they resist the temptation to give it to you.
You end up having to punch the gas hard enough to initiate a downshift, so the car ends up (after 1-2 secs usually) dropping a gear or 2 and lurchin gforward (making the obnoxious AT engine sound).
As H said, you end up having to nail the brakes, in which case it upshifts right back up, and you start the yoyoing process again.
I think the fundemantal difference between MT and AT (or maybe it is their drivers?), is that the MT lends itself to anticipating a situation, and the AT is more reactionary. That, and the tendancy for an AT to do something because it felt like it, not because I wanted it to.
At least with my stick, if it is in the wrong gear, I pretty much have to blame myself!
Anyway, I guess some of this can be overcome with a manumatic, if you actually drive it in that mode, which I didn't think most people did (at least not on the highway, or in normal driving).
Although I will admit that as far as ATs go, the BMW unit is certainly state of the art.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Left in Drive with the traction/stability control on, the car attempts to quell wheelspin and stumbles off the line at full throttle. Even with traction control shut off, the automatic transmission would short-shift to second to quell wheelspin. Finally, with traction control defeated and manual gear selection, I maintained just the right amount of wheelspin and timed the 1-2 upshift at redline.
Lest anyone get the wrong impression, I'm probably closer to Tiger Woods on the golf course than I am to Michael Schumacher behind the wheel of a sports car. And I rarely break 80 even with a foot wedge or two, if that says anything. I haven't even mastered heel-toe shifting in my 911 (please don't publicize this).
But, as stickguy said, if I'm in the wrong gear, I know who to blame. When I test drove the M3 SMG a couple of years ago, it hesitated slightly from a dead stop (i.e. not drag racing, but making left hand turns) and in spite of claimed "xxx millisecond downshifts", seemed to hesitate at equally inopportune times. To the point where I asked the dealer if this was normal, or was I doing something wrong.
I don't know how you quantify "control" in this world of 0-60 times and millisecond shift times. But in my subjective judgement, I've yet to drive any automatic that had virtues that outweighed the negatives in this regard.
Be sure to leave your comments! :P
My one gripe with the v6 6-speed Accord is the metal shifter, gets warm in Texas. I end up shifting with my fingertips only until the AC cools it down.
Now just stick the Mazdaspeed 3 turbo 4 cylinder in their and have a real fun time.
Opel / Vauxhall already does this in Europe .. the Zafira comes with the 2.0L turbo (same as what is found in the Saturn Sky Red Line), but, surprisingly, it doesn't discuss what kind of transmission choices there are:
Zafira VXR
It would be a blast if that was imported to the US and sold as a Saturn.
EDIT: Looks like it comes with a stick shift only .. don't know if it's a 5-speed or a 6-speed, however.
In any event, since I happen to own a BMW M5 and a Porsche 911 Turbo, I think I can say with reasonable confidence that their advancements in SMG and (soon) DSG transmissions may ultimately make their slushbox automatics obsolete, but not their true manual transmissions. BMW had to rather embarassingly reintroduce the M5 manual transmssion because of an outcry from their loyalists. And when you are selling $100k sedans, it makes reasonable sense to listen to your customers. Less so, if you are selling $25k pick-up trucks.
Have a good day and cheer up. Your broken record approach to forecasting the demise of the manual transmission isn't going to make it happen. Many GM engineers and executives predicted the same thing back in the 1950's when the automatic transmission really came into it's own. And yet 50 year's later, Porsche makes boatloads more money than GM selling a fraction as many cars, 60%+ of which are still manual transmissions. GM may have weaned the manual from their line-up, but many Americans with discretionary income weaned GM fron their list of brands they would consider.
I predict the manual transmission availability in a 911 will outlast GM as a viable public company.
I may agree that I am a bit skeptical of the Germans to hold the interest of the rest of the world as we look to more and more dependable cars. But GM is not the only company moving away from manuals. The juggernaught Toyota is offering and selling more cars in Automatic configuration than Porche will sell 911s in the next ten years.
I don't see the sky falling but I do see many problems for the manual in the future. Having just started shopping for some small crossovers I have already discovered there are fewer choices in manuals than I had even five years ago.
Or is it your contention that I will have more choices of manuals from the big companies in the future?
Go re-read your post that I responded to. YOU cited Porsche and BMW as examples to support your dire prediction that the manual transmission is on it's last legs. Then you turn around and claim these are not good examples, but rather cars for the "uber" rich. What the hell is it? Clearly, you seem to have a bad case of ADD in your shotgun like approach to trying to make your point here, whatever it is.
Your apparantly sudden realization that the automatic transmission is taking over the world is embarassingly silly. Wake up. It's only been about 40 years since the automatic has completely replaced "three on the tree" offerings by Ford and GM. If Edmunds was around back then, you'd probably have 20,000 posts to your credit expressing that "the end is near". There is nothing that you are noticing in 2007 trends that wasn't the case in 1967.
If you want a small crossover, why don't you give the X3 6-speed a try. In addition to a manual transmission, I'm sure it will outhandle and be a far more enjoyable to drive car than just about anything else you are considering. And you don't even need to be uber rich.
A car or truck is nothing more than a tool. A more complicated tool than a hand drill but a tool none the less. The transmission is nothing more than a piece of that tool. In the market place today more than 90 percent of the population have decided the manual is not a necessary part of the tool they are buying. Can that be denied?
I agree with Habitat that there may always be a niche market for manuals. But I would add the caveat that we have to assume the country will not embrace the green economy because of government mandates. We already know that once the government mandates the skid control option after 2007 part of the control some feel the manual adds will dissapere.
Are you assuming these factors will have no effect on manuals?
The subject of this forum is simply our opinion on the future of manual transmissions. It has evolved into the future of the dog leg. The manual has been redefined to be only transmissions with third pedals. That being the case how do you predict the manual will stand up against the present trend of automation in the name of safety? How will it stand up in the quest for fuel economy and hybrid drive or even EV vehicles?
Look at the new generation of drivers coming into the market today. Where will the future defenders of tradition verses technology come from? What do these trends say to you? You tell my why more than 90 percent of the market in the US drives automatics? You tell me why two of the most dependable manufacturers sold in the US today stopped making manuals available After all if they will always be available or desirable why would Toyota and Honda stop offering them in their two small crossovers?
Like another poster said earlier I wouldn't want to have to turn to a german car simply because the car of my choice didn't come in a manual.