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dudelyr is mentioning small cars with small engines, where a manual would shine.
When you look at a bigger V6 it makes far less difference. I get 25mpg overall in my huge Sienna van. I've seen 31.3 mpg on the highway. I'm fairly certain a manual, if it were available, would do no better. Once the torque converter locks up it pretty much makes no difference, so for highway driving it's all about how tall the gearing is.
Just browsing a buyer's guide I have here, the TSX does better city and highway with an automatic, and that's a 4 banger. Audi's SMT splits the difference, auto is better in the city but less on the highway. Same for BMWs, also split.
CTS' 5EAT does better city than the six speed manual, both 2.8 and 3.6 liters. Highway's a tie.
HHR 2.4l does better city with the auto.
Some small cars with autos are dogs, though, for instance the base PT Cruiser auto loses 4mpg highway compared to the manual. Ouch.
That's only A-B-C for manufacturers, but the point is there are plenty of exceptions.
That's EPA, I realize, but it's a quick and easy source. In the Subaru threads we did observe a 1-2mpg advantage for manuals with the normally aspirated 2.5l engine vs. auto, but then again with the turbo Foresters it was the reverse - the manuals are thirsty.
911 C2: $75,000 x 46.52% depreciation = $34,889
Caddy : $45,000 x 72.8% depreciation = $32,770
and
I imagine anyone who asks gets at least invoice minus the $4000 rebate...which would be about $6000 and a 15% discount
To make this more realistic, I looked up some actual street pricing. Fitzmall.com sells Caddys and they're no haggle. My family has bought 5 cars there so the prices are very much REAL.
OK, they list an SRX with an MSRP of $46,270 for a no-haggle price of $39,999. We're talking about a $6271 discount, more than hinted at above.
This is without haggling. You can easily beat that price by a few hundred if you simply ask a neighboring dealer to beat that price.
But let's assume you're lazy and don't want to hassle at all with that, and pay that price.
depreciation != $32,770
actual depreciation = $26,770
So the Porsche costs you $35k minus whatever you can negotiate off list (good luck with that), while the Caddy costs a reasonable $27k or less.
The Porsche will not cost less in any scenario. 2 year, 3 years, doesn't matter. It will cost more.
Of course! Otherwise we'd all be driving Porsches!
That will also add to the cost.. Plus, in some cases... higher insurance rates (though Porsches can be surprisingly cheap to insure).
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It's hard to sell a Porsche. You have a very limited market. Not a lot of people can afford to finance $40 grand on a used car past warranty.
It's still for sale, if anyone's interested.
It's hard to sell a Porsche. You have a very limited market. Not a lot of people can afford to finance $40 grand on a used car past warranty.
It's still for sale, if anyone's interested.
Yeah I think a lot of the post-993 air cooled ones are a little harder to unload.
We are asking 39,xxx for it which is the lowest price for hundreds of miles. Have only gotten an couple of bites so far but it is basically a cash car which takes a lot of people out of the market.
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So resale is nice, but it's simply harder to sell a higher-priced used car, and that counts for something.
( It already has a 5YR/100,00 mile powertrain warrantee. )
Even if I never use it, I have the peace of mind & a second potential buyer has a warrantee well beyond the 3/36K mile Chevy B2B.
Almost any such complex conveyance ( Porsche, Corvette, Audi, M-B, etc ) can be breathtakingly expensive to have problems diagnosed & repaired out of warrantee.
Some $40K used cars ( particularly used sports \ GT cars ) are clearly second or third or fourth vehicles in a stable, are not driven many miles per year. And having one tied up for repair or awaiting parts is just not a big deal.
BTW: The 6L80 Automatic Trans. in my 2007 Corvette did have an issue recently:
Now I hasten to add here: I do ** NOT ** in any way abuse my vehicles. Ever. Not that I don’t accelerate quickly, etc. – but I do not indulge in anything anyone cold term ‘ abuse’.
Yet - after many, many years of driving automatics with absolutely no issues or repairs required, 2 consecutive GM vehicles have had major transmission issues – each within the first 12,000 miles.
A few details may be of interest to those here regarding my Corvette’s failure:
My 2007 Coupe had been near perfect in over 10,500 miles ( 7 months of Daily Driver \ commuter duty, as well as a couple of longer trips ) but I began to encounter a problem that seriously concerned me:
On acceleration, at shift points, the RPM would rise significantly as an upshift executes. [ flare? ] Sounded \ felt to me ( not a trans. engineer ) like the trans. was slipping.
This had happened to me, to a lesser degree, every once in a while over the past few months – say once a week or so. But one day, driving to lunch, it happened on something approaching half of all the shifts.
Did not seem to matter if it was in “S” w/paddles active ( as I typically drive ) just “S” shifting for itself, or “D”. Accelerator position seemed not to be a factor.
It happened as I drove out of my work parking lot, after sitting for over 4 hours – thus the trans. was as cool as it will be in 80+ degree weather. The trans. temp typically tops out at 207 on the stop-n-go portion of my commute home, and it did not seem any worse ( or any better ) on that drive than earlier when the trans. was cooler.
Once in any gear, things seem fine. Meaning: The TCC unlock \ lockup appears to be working fine & downshifts appeared unaffected – no unexpected RPM fluctuations. Though it was still intermittent, I called my dealer and scheduled an appointment for the next Monday.
A couple of days later ( a Saturday, of course ), after a couple of apparent shift attempts with long neutral between gears, the trans. stuck in second gear. And the CEL lit, at the same time. ( I was afraid that before the end of that drive, I might end up with a ‘box “full of neutrals” . . . ) Parked it.
On Monday AM, after another few shift problems, the trans. locked in third gear – and I continued directly to my Dealer.
I stuck to relatively rural roads, kept my speed under about 50 ( about 2,500 RPM ) and made it without further incident to my Dealer. But not much fun.
When I received the car back ( after a week ) it shifted as new.
It took 5 business days for all the parts to arrive – and less than an hour on a lift for the actual repair.
This was particularly annoying to me, since I had waited for a 2007 – after the 6 speed automatic trans was introduced for model year 2006 on the Corvette – specifically hoping that any potential issues with the transmission would be resolved, before mine was built.
[[ sigh ]]
Yet the 2008 Pontiac G8 V8 ( another GM product, with virtually the same trans. that failed on me a couple of months ago ) remains at or near the top of my list as a possible replacement for the Corvette – when that time comes . . .
- Ray
Not necessarily always ( ever? ) logical – when it comes to cars .
Seriously... most of those never get advertised.. If you bought a new '97 911, it's probably depreciated less than 50% in ten years.. :surprise:
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All of my excitement faded when I saw that auto shifter sticking out of the center console. :confuse: :sick: :mad:
ans: people that shouldn't be buying or driving that kind of vehicle.
New question: Why would Porsche make an Automatic?
Literally.
I'd pick a manual, sure, but my left knee makes a funny creaking sound after an hour in bumper to bumper traffic and on those days I (almost) wish my Miata were an automatic.
Fortunately for me that sort of traffic is something I see only a few times per year.
If it were every day, well then...I would ride the bus or take the subway.
But if I had to drive and wanted an auto a Tiptronic wouldn't be so bad I suppose. :P
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Yeah I know Porsche puts a lot of extra work into that platform but really it is still a VW. Just compare the repair records on a Cayenne to all the other Porsches.
It amazes me that Porsche can stay number one on the IQS with all those Cayennes dragging the surveys scores down.
I happened to get $10.8k off my new 2005 C2S Cab, but I was definitely in the right place at the right time (September 2005).
The Porsche will not cost less in any scenario. 2 year, 3 years, doesn't matter. It will cost more....Of course! Otherwise we'd all be driving Porsches!
OK, I'll give you that.
But let's look at another way. Before a 2005 C2S Cab found it's way into my garage, I put 11 years and 150,000 miles behind the wheel of a 1995 Nissan Maxima SE. That car cost me $21,000 brand new and other than routine oil changes and service, didn't have it's first repair until a water pump broke at 110,000 miles. (Some would even call that a maintenance item). Hardly anything since. I've kept that car at our second home, but have twice turned down offers from freinds to sell it to them (for their kids) at $4,500+. The car looks very good and runs perfect.
Show me a Caddy at 13 years old with (now) 157k miles that looks 1/2 as good and drives 1/2 as well as my old Maxima and I'll buy it for you. :surprise:
Anybody that thinks a Porsche is expensive, but then goes and buys a $40k Caddy that really does cost two or three times as much to own as a higher build quality Toyota, Honda or Nissan, is, I suspect, NEVER going to own a Porsche.
Still not sure what that has to do with Caddy vs. Porsche, though.
That if you can't (yet) afford a Porsche, buy a Honda or Nissan and maybe someday you can. But not if you pee away money on a Caddy.
And, before the Host says so, none of this has anything to do with the future of manual transmissions, so I'll stop digressing now.
Ditto the Lexus IS and '08 Merc C300. Acura goes the other way, making it only available in the sport packaged TL, costing $6K more.
There is a lot of that in the marketplace now: manuals are shaking out of the midmarket, to the cheapie entry-level models (IS250 for instance) and high-priced specialized sport packages, like the TL-S.
Nothing in between.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not true.
See current C+T pg. 54-61.
That's supposed to be: C+D = Car and Driver.
Sorry....
Anyway - the top CTS engine option ( 300+ HP ) ** IS ** available with the manual trans.
Cheers,
- Ray
Wondering what the 'take rate' or % sold of the manual will be . . .
At the risk of getting flamed (and I am one of the true believers that drives 3 pedals every day!), some cars, including the caddy, just make more sense with an AT.
Most big, overly poserful cars (unless they are a sports car) are in the same boat. After driving my BILs 550I BMW, I actually thought it would have been better with the auto tranny. Myabe because the 340HP engine was just overkill.
But, a 325i would be a different story. That car should have a stick.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
". . .overly poserful cars. . ."
Don't tell me about Chrysler's "lifetime" powertrain warranty. Assuming it could even make it that long, if I was stuck driving a Chrysler product for 13 years and 155k miles, I'd probably just shoot myself and end my life.
Due to launching a new business in a niche that may or may not ultimately succeed (and the fact that I have a very long commute to my current contract), my business partner and I are both driving old Chrysler products. Furthermore, the one that I'm driving is going to hit 150,000 miles in the next couple of weeks. :surprise:
One does what one must, I'll be back in a new BMW with a stick sooner or later. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Hope it is SOONER!!
Best Regards,
Shipo
I started the search by looking at some of the cars I might be interested in and seeing if the came in AWD or 4WD. Several did and I even found the Ford 500 came with AWD but not with a manual. When I factored in the idea that I might want the most practical vehicle with AWD and the fuel mileage I was pushed into hybrid vehicles and once again manuals are rare in that kind of vehicle. The search narrows a bit if I factor in cost and fuel mileage and you pretty much end up with Subaru, Honda, and Toyota. Subaru has a lot of manual options but their reliability isn't up to Honda and Toyota standards. Subaru is also not a fuel saving king. Now it gets narrowed to the CR-V and the Rav4 and it looks like neither the new CR-V nor the new Rav4 come with manuals. The Rav4 is rated as about the best bet if fuel mileage and cost are giving equal value to the transmission type. I did notice that a lot of these crossovers are getting CVT transmissions as an option.
Also, don't forget Suzuki, Kia, and Hyundai. Mitsubishi, too.
Ironically a lot of lower-end cars offer the desirable option of a true manual.
Was gonna go manual tranny's with either of those cars but wound up moving over to a CVT automatic in my Lancer GTS. It's splendid, you can play with the paddle shifters or just eat your jelly donut and change CD's while you drive with the automatic tranny simply in 'D'.
We've got choices and more are coming out all the time in small cars. The Kia Optima was too big...needed to stay small with the Lancer GTS.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
While this is much less than a new automatic transmission, I guess it is possible to run into some pretty expensive repair costs on manuals.
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Bummer that Toyota dropped the manual option. I think they still have them in Europe.
I had a '98 Forester that served me well for 9 years, and highly recommend those. Resale was amazing for its age, I got back about a third of what I paid for it.
I wouldn't sweat a 1 or 2 mpg difference, the fact is Subarus with manuals get better mileage than the automatics even when the autos have higher EPA numbers.
Honda also dropped the manual on the CR-V. Suzuki does sell a Grand Vitara with a manual, but it's not very fuel efficient.
What about a Scion xD? Or xB? Outback Sport? Suzuki SX4?
These sedans are geared relatively tall, I am still short shifting somewhat for break-in/fuel economy (try to keep revs 2-3k) and the engine seems to be responding nicely. I am looking forward to having the first couple of tanks of gas out of the way so I can get on it a bit more.
The car is considered a LEV at least, and I am sure I can beat the 34hwy with my driving style.
You might look at the Jeep Patriot as well. The 4x4 system has a manual "lock" mode, like the Rav-4, But you can get it with manual as well. Now, you won't get low-range 4x4 with it(Freedom drive II only comes with automatic), but it's great full-time 4x4 for tamer thing than crawling over rocks.
Yes, the Rav4 seems to get the best fuel mileage and only in the last year or so would I have cared.
I talked to the wife tonight and she has been thinking about a new ride herself. However fuel mileage seems to be of less concern to her than I thought. She wants one that will pull a small camping trailer so I believe Subaru is out. I may be able to put her on another track in that respect because we haven't been camping together in years. I can sleep on a cot in a sleeping bag and she isn't into that kind of camping. I have been known to sleep in the car with the seat tilted fully back.
Well maybe fuel mileage isn't all that important but I was surprised to see that the Rav4 was the crossover mileage champ at the 20k mark.