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But yeah, you can match revs and upshift and downshift a manual (ok, some manuals) all day long without using the clutch. Just can't shift into first or reverse unless there's some kind of synchro going on that my Tercel didn't have.
Most of the snow buttons you see in automatics now are just second gear start features. The only two I can think of that do more then start in second gear are the Snow/Grass/Gravel mode for terrain response in the Land Rovers and the new snow mode in the Jags.
A good point was raised - I doubt your insurance would cover you if you get in a crash driving a stick shift with a cast. They would basically assume you were at fault in any collision regardless.
Far too risky. Just rent an automatic.
Right, but ordinarily you'd clutch when you start off in second in the snow in those cases.
I was thinking there was a situation where you'd be stopped in a Jeep (excuse me, a manual Land Rover
Yeah in some situations you would disengage the clutch interlock and start the car in second, or even first under the right conditions, to bump the car forward. It is very, very hard on the starters though but some aftermarket companies sell extra heavy duty starters that can actually pull the car forward for quite a while.
I tore my ACL last summer and after complete replacement surgery in October, was able to drive a stick in 48 hours. It was my right leg, working the gas and brake. But I don't think it would have made any difference if it was my left clutch leg. If you are only going to have your foot in a cast, I suspect there is a pretty good chance you can drive a stick once you get used to moving it using your leg rather than ankle/foot muscles.
Tylenol #4 helps.
But I still can't recommend it. I was younger and dumber when I did it (which also explains my broken left leg, lol).
Once we got the hang of it we were pretty in synch. 1st-2nd was the tough one, had to be quick and well timed.
I would have driven but the car was borrowed from his sister, so I didn't really have permission to drive it.
If you don't mind explaining (I'm not that mechanical at least not as far as trannies), if you can successfully shift without the clutch, then why is there a clutch?
Thanks again for the great discussion!
Still, when it comes to my next car choice, I think you have to kind of foresee those things especially if you don't have anyone else's car to depend on, you have to think about how having a standard is going to potentially affect you. Ideally, I'd like to have one of each, but that's not realistic for me!
Thanks for your patience with me!
Mr_Shiftright, "How it Works! Welcome to Auto 101" #276, 11 Mar 2007 6:08 pm
Why is there a clutch? Well, you're getting over my head too, not to mention that there's several different flavors of clutches (wet, dry, cable operated ones, multiple pressure plates, etc.).
Someone else can do better explaining than me - I just think of a clutch as a gizmo that lets you engage the various gears without grinding them. Usually. :shades:
That is more of the job of the synchros on a modern transmission.
Our 1959 series II Rover has a non syncro first and second gear so you have to double clutch to match revs when shifting from first to second or third to second.
Keep going. Do you really need a clutch with today's 5 and 6 speed manuals?
Also, is that the same as double de-clutching?
If not, what on earth is that?
I can double clutch up and down through the gears, heel and toe down shift, throttle blip matching revs downshifts to stop without using the brakes but I have never wanted to try clutchless or power shifting.
I watched my mom do it one time in a car but I never tried it. She had the clutch go out in her VW bug many, many years ago and then had to shift without the clutch through Atlanta to get home.
You still need a clutch because you can only powershift in a very narrow RPM range and it is very hard on the gears.
I learned to power shift in my '65 VW Bug, which wasn't to hard because the flat 4 operated in a narrow rpm range (redline was probably no more than 4500rpm).
The knowledge came in handy one day when I was commuting to Manhattan with my brother and the clutch cable in his Capri 1600 let go. I told him to let me drive and managed to limp the car to the dealer on the West Side sans clutch.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Yes, IF you do it exactly right. Let off the gas, pull the shifter out of gear and push it toward the next gear with a light steady pressure to balance against the resistance you'll feel. When your rpms drop enough to match your speed and the gear you've chosen, the resistance against the shifter will lighten and it will slide into gear. This can take a second or three depending on the particulars, and it will wear out the transmission eventually (mostly the synchros). The clutch lets you do it a lot faster, and takes the wear off the tranny itself.
Some vehicles are pretty easy to do this with (most Hondas, for example), while others are just about impossible. It just depends on how the internal parts of the transmission are set up.
Honda research and development staff in Japan are working to increase fuel efficiency on the Fit subcompact and Civic compact for the 2008 model year, executive vice-president Jim Miller said.
The auto industry is furious with the ecoAuto program contained in the March federal budget because manufacturers say it is unfair to some models; forces consumers to choose between safety and the environment, and will have a negligible impact on emissions.
Honda, one of the country’s greenest automakers, was so upset with the program it took the unusual step of offering $1,000 on the purchase or lease of a 2007 Fit or a 2006-07 Civic with a manual transmission.
The program gives an advantage to the Toyota Yaris, which offers fuel consumption of 6.2 and 6.3 L/100km.
Hmm.. the Echo is around 170lbs lighter than both the Yaris and the Fit and I have to say that weighing 923kg with that 1NZ-FE engine pushing out 105lbs-ft makes this a fun car to drive and can give even better fuel economy 5.8L/ 100km if my memory serves me. But not the way I drive.
The Civic models starting from MY 2006 are nice sleds. My test drive being with the 5MT of course. It's definitely on my short list in a few years. However I couldn't help thinking that it would have been an equally nice car fitted with the 1.3L from the Civic Hybrid. The non hybrid version of this engine is available in Europe. Instead we get the 1.8L 140HP version. I realize that having the 1.8L Toyota Corolla in its class needs the Civic to cover that engine size as well, it could be Honda can't offer a 1.3L variant because someone might discover that up in the snow belt areas the Honda IMA hasn't been doing very much to help this engine fuel-wise.
So it may be the EcoAuto program that could push us back to manual transmissions. That's if we want to avoid the eco-tax that comes due when we couple these larger engines with automatic transmissions.
T2
One disincentive to getting a manual that is amply demonstrated by both the new Yaris and the Civic is that with the new emissions controls, many cars' accelerators tend to "hang" when you let off them at high revs, which makes engaging the next gear very lumpy and annoying. This "hanging" is on purpose so that the throttle doesn't snap shut and cause a spike in NOx emissions. It's getting worse with every passing generation of car models, and of course an automatic driver would never notice it at all...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
you have a dead battery and no one around to give you a jump. remember putting the vehicle in neutral, pushing it at a moderate speed (and i have done this solo with the door open...gosh being young and stupid was fun!
should bring back a memory or two for the other MT fans here.
i wonder if you can still do that with these modern cars... the last one i did this on was a mid-80s Jetta GLI.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I think I have more of an idea now of why people prefer automatics! I'm starting to think that after 20 years out of it, driving a manual is out of my league entirely with all this new vocabulary! At least I know that clutchless driving is doable. Maybe I need to study the basics, like how DO you brake without downshifting? Braking is always a good place to start.
how DO you brake without downshifting?
Use the brake pedal. :P As long as the tach doesn't drop too close to or below the idle rpm, nothing bad will happen. If I have brake more than that (60 down to 25 mph), I shift into neutral, slow down however much I'm slowing, then put the car back in gear. This is technically illegal in some places, and not the best idea on long downslopes.
Relating some recent discussions to this: I remeber once having to push (as in me pushing car) my moms 53' buick special with her behind the wheel. Had a lot of trouble trying to move that huge tank size machine until I went back towards front to see her right for resting on brake pedal. ( I mind have be thinking some bad words if I had been old enough at the time)
i think so.
i can't remember ever ever trying to brake from 5th gear to very low speed without using the clutch and downshifting, unless of course, i was comming up on something sudden, then i would engage the clutch and brake at the same time out of reflex. Not sure if that was a good move or not, but...
if you're at speed and your slowing using the brakes, you should just automatically sense when the engine has done it's thing with compression braking and down-shift.
i'm not sure i'm on the same page as you w.r.t. why you fully engage the clutch... i mean, do you just want to wear the brakes out quicker? do you think you're damaging the engine by braking some, then downshifting? are you on a patch of ice and don't wish to downshift then?
i'm confused.
"Riding" the clutch is a bad habit that a lot of people fall in to. I kept my foot off the clutch like a hawk with all of my rigs with sticks. The only rig of mine that needed clutch replacement was my first car, a '65 Mustang. That car was purchased used in 1978 and probably had 125,000 miles on it when I got it. It was probably bought with significant clutch wear already on it and I, while using it normally, put so many miles on it that it just wore out.
There is an art to driving stick that can be learned by a significant percentage of the U.S. population but it isn't being taught to them. Or they don't see the need to learn, or a combination of these things and several other things that is combining to doom the manual tranny in these United States.
Excuse me while I go play with my paddle shifters.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I can chose to drive a manual just in a regular manner or I can use all the fancy foot work I have learned over the years to maximize not only my driving enjoyment but also fuel economy. Oh I can also minimize brake, clutch and transmission wear by down shifting properly and matching revs with a little bit of throttle blip.
Not a single issue or wear on any of them.
The wife says how she feels more in control of the vehicle, especially in winter conditions.
I know it's made my 18 year old a better driver than if she was in a car where you can just stomp on it and go :P
I can take my Accord all the way down to about 10 mph in 6th gear before it starts to shake. My 350Z I used to be able to get down to around 5 mph in 6th.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Not slipping or riding the clutch IMO will have the biggest impact on longevity.
I will also use the throw it in neutral briefly technique when I am coasting to a slow down (not stop), and then put it in the right gear when it is time to accelerate. Not on downslopes though.
It's not rocket science, and on a modern car, in normal driving, pretty much unneccesary.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Blipping, heel and toe, double clutching... Those are all great if you are driving an old MG, or a commercial truck.... but, hardly worth the effort, otherwise...
Unless you just like to show off your skills!!
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No, I put the shifter in neutral instead of making the downshifts. Ride along at 60 mph in 5th, decide to brake, clutch-lift-neutral, brake as necessary and coast along in neutral down to 25 mph, clutch-3rd-gas.
qbrozen: what kind of car we talking about??
2000 Hyundai Accent, runs about 2700 rpm at 60 mph in 5th. Theoretically, it could go down to 19 mph at idle in 5th, but 5th doesn't have enough torque multiplication (torque division actually, since it's overdrive) for the 1.5L to keep the car rolling much below 1500 rpm or so.
I've never met anyone who drove a MT this way.
I personally wouldn't want to do this, and one of the reasons why is that by having the engine connected to the transmission, the compression braking is saving wear and tear on the brakes. Your engine has to do the revs anyway, why not use it in this manner to do some work... Your brakes will last longer.
Another very good reason for NOT AND NEVER EVER COAST, is that you are always in immediate position to re-apply gas to the vehicle and get moving. Yes, sometimes, power/acceleration is a safety feature.
I have learned, when on very slippery roads, not to make control input changes if possible, meaning applying brakes, shifting gears, turning the wheel. If you are crossing a patch of black ice for example, or on an iced over bridge, and you decide to shift then (up or down), if you aren't perfectly matched, i would think you'd induce a change of forces at the points of road/ice contact that could put you in a loss-of-control scenario.
I could be wrong about all this of course. :sick:
Now let's say you're in twisties. Do you
a). just brake going into the curve and accelerate out,
b). brake and apply clutch going in, then let out clutch and accelerate comming out,
c). brake and down-shift prior to entry, and accelerate on exit?
d). other?
a). just brake going into the curve and accelerate out,
b). brake and apply clutch going in, then let out clutch and accelerate comming out,
c). brake and down-shift prior to entry, and accelerate on exit?
d). other?
Well, that depends on many factors, not the least of which include your mood and the power of the car you are driving.
Answer a if not in a hurry and the curve is not very sharp. Answer c if you are having fun and the curve dictates slowing down enough to warrant a downshift (although, technically, the shift would occur just as you enter, not prior to entry).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Now let's say you're in twisties. Do you
a). just brake going into the curve and accelerate out,
b). brake and apply clutch going in, then let out clutch and accelerate comming out,
c). brake and down-shift prior to entry, and accelerate on exit?
d). other?
All of the above, depending on how tight the curve is, how fast I'm approaching, how much I need to slow, and whether I'm driving FWD or RWD.
There are some situations where you might need to brake and down shift going into a fairly slow corner at the bottom of the hill and if there is a series of turns after the first turn that changes things.
You want to go into that corner using a gear that will carry you through the entire series of curves without shifting.
Depending on the car and the course that could be second gear or third gear.
So it's 5th gear, put clutch in(technically optional here), stick in neutral, hit brakes. If red, come to complete stop(do nothing). If it's green, at ~20mph, put in in 2nd to take the turn. You can really minimize - actually cut your clutch use in half with a few simple changes to your driving style. Perhaps that's why I don't find heavy traffic to be a chore with stick.
P.S. - most all modern manuals can be taken out of gear/into neutral without a clutch. (well, technically all of them, but modern fully syncro'ed ones are a cinch)