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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    when I "shift" the water bottle in the center console of my wife's Odyssey? At least it gives my hand something to do.

    As long as I don't pretend clutch, since that would involve jamming on the emergency brake!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    True, but then so does Power Steering. You lose feedback from the road, it numbs the steering, changes the steering ratio, the turns lock to lock, and changes the whole experience just as significantly.

    You are more than welcome to start a new forum: "The future of manual steering", if you'd like to debate that point. ;)

    IMO, I don't give up anything in terms of control or feedback when I drive my former Honda S2000 or current 911 with power steering. The steering on those cars, and even my 2004 Acura TL, is tight and direct. Maybe a manual steering version of a current S2000 or 911 would be even better, but I certainly don't long for my former 1978 Datsun B210GX.

    However, when I've had the opportunity to drive some of the very best of the current automatics and SMG's available, I felt like I was giving up a lot. Those include the BMW M3, new M5, Boxster/911 Tiptronic and all the AMG cars. Can't say I've been lucky enough to drive a Ferrari 430 F1 and 6-speed manual back to back, but that's one of the few.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    To the person who does not care about the driving experience in the way you do, not having a clutch is just another convenience, that is no different to them from power windows, etc. There is no difference between the two transmissions to them ...or having an automatic instead of manual is an improvement in their driving experience.

    I hope we aren't heading towards a battle of semantics, but I don't by this, "I don't care" equals "there is no difference".

    Even though I go to a monthly "cigar night" (i.e. excuse to get together with the guys) I don't actually give a rats [non-permissible content removed] about fine cigars. I wouldn't enjoy smoking a $100 Cuban rolled by Fidel himself. But I'm not so arrogant to say that there's no difference between it and a King Edward. I can admit to being apathetic regarding cigars, without losing my dignity or having to justify it in some other way.

    So, like I said, I respect someone's opinion that the difference in control and feel of a manual vs. automatic transmission isn't important to them. As long as it's not extrapolated into some arrogant or ignorant claim that there is no difference - and that those that can tell the difference must be hallucinating.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I can remember the complaints about ABS. Still have a few because it didn't reduce accidents.

    They changed the type of collision...rear end crashes went down and single vehicle-off-road crashes went up. The moron not paying attention was used to swerving and his locked up front wheels kept going straight, but with ABS, the car actually turned and he went off the road and hit a tree.

    No one seemed to notice rev limiters. and fuel cut offs.

    Earlier on, they were much lower and much more invasive. Now even when I am on the track I don't notice it.

    Some complain about electronic power steering as if a belt and hydrolic fluid somehow gives more connection than a servo.

    It does. I have to fake "steering feel" (and brake feel) as part of my job, and its REALLY hard to get right without an actual hydraulic pump.

    For years I have preferred 4wd to AWD. 4wd allows me to decide when and if I need all 4 wheels connected. Many today would freely debate the logic I might have for that older system.

    I miss the Audi CS Turbo Quattro that let you manually lock individual differentials and activate and de-activate ABS.
  • catherinercatheriner Member Posts: 2
    Even if they're not learning to drive a manual in driving
    schools, there is still hope.

    I learned to drive on automatic. My fiance' taught me how
    to drive a standard. Went back to automatic,but missed the
    fun of the stick. Now I'm the new,proud owner of a mitsbushi
    spyder and having a blast! Driving an automatic is like auto
    pilot-with the standard tran- the driver IS the pilot ;)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I think I perhaps misinterpreted your comment: Perhaps those that don't recognize the difference don't fall into redsoxgirl's "lazy" category, but they would qualify for the "ignorant" or "apathetic" classification. as meaning that anyone who does not care about the difference is ignorant or apathetic...and as meaning to be a criticism of the "values" (for lack of a better word) of anyone who would not prefer to drive a manual.

    I did not mean to imply that there was no difference but that the differences are unimportant to some (which I now think is the same thing that you meant). As in someone might say "it makes no difference to me whether I drive an automatic or manual either one will serve its function adequately for me". Just as operating power windows is different from operating manual ones, but I may not care one way or the other which my car is equipped with.

    As for myself, I certainly recognize the differences but see it as a trade off. There are some things I like better about a manual and some things I like better about an automatic. So while I do care about the differences it is not all positive for the manual and all negative for the automatic to me. So I guess maybe that is another variation.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669
    However, when I've had the opportunity to drive some of the very best of the current automatics and SMG's available, I felt like I was giving up a lot. Those include the BMW M3, new M5, Boxster/911 Tiptronic and all the AMG cars.

    With all due respect, if you haven't driven a twin-clutch DSG, you probably haven't experienced the best of modern gearboxes.

    BMW is dropping their roundly criticized SMG in favor of a twin-clutch and it is being adopted by everyone from Porsche to Mitsubishi as well. You can try one at your VW or Audi dealer right now.

    From what I've read the new ZF automatic in the BMW 335i/535i is the best of the TC "automanuals", have you tried it?

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    "They changed the type of collision...rear end crashes went down and single vehicle-off-road crashes went up. The moron not paying attention was used to swerving and his locked up front wheels kept going straight, but with ABS, the car actually turned and he went off the road and hit a tree."

    I hadn't thought of this... It seems that in the last couple of years, in rush-hour traffic... when interstate traffic stops abruptly, other drivers will swerve out of their lane into the emergency lane on either side. 95% of the time, it isn't actually necessary as they never get past the bumper of the car in front of them.

    Most of the time, if these drivers aren't paying enough attention to prepare for the traffic in front of them, they sure haven't scanned ahead to see if the emergency lane is clear. I always thought it was a pretty dangerous maneuver in most cases.

    I always wondered to myself why this seemed to be a relatively new phenomenon. Maybe they were teaching this in Driver's ED, or something. It never occurred to me that drivers were doing this because they can, but couldn't do it before because their brakes would lock up.

    It seems they are exchanging the possibility of a slight fender-bender for a potential disaster.

    Even at my advanced age, I learn something new every day.. ;)

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some complain about electronic power steering as if a belt and hydrolic fluid somehow gives more connection than a servo.

    You can put me in that first group.

    I guess the reason is execution, though. Go drive the outgoing Saturn Vue. Numbest steering in the world. It's like operating a joystick, with no feel or feedback to the road. None. Worst steering I've ever sampled by a long shot.

    Hydraulic systems are fluid (literally) and linear, though they're screwing those up with variable boost, too.

    I haven't sampled electric power steering that I've liked, but maybe if I did I'd change my mind. VW makes them now.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The MINI Cooper S has or had not sure about the 2007 plus MY hydraulic steering with an electric pump. It is an interesting mix of the two systems.

    I never had any problems with it.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    BMW has servotronic steering as an option on the X3..

    It changes the ratio at low speeds, so the vehicle takes less steering input to make sharp turns at parking lot speeds..

    I had a loaner with that option, and it was undetectable at other speeds.. Pretty neat option for an SUV and only $250.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Better executed than the Saturn Vue's steering, for certain.

    The Vue's steering was bad enough to be a deal killer all by itself!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It seems they are exchanging the possibility of a slight fender-bender for a potential disaster.

    Having been rear ended while stopped at a red light in a brand new car with my whole family in it because the lady behind me was distracted, I would've preferred if she took out some flora/mailboxes as opposed to the rear 1/3 of my car.

    Most vehicle off road crashes aren't more severe than a rear end collision, and most aren't even reported in the national databases, as they require one or more vehicles to be a "tow away."

    My competition driver training instructor used to always say "be somewhere else." If a collision is imminent, pretty much anything you can do to avoid that is a good first step. If that center or parking lane can avoid an collision, I would definitely use it. If I can see something starting to happen, I try to make my lane clear for the vehicles ahead to swerve into to avoid a crash.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think we can conclude much from one single crash. It all depends on what angles the impact came from, where the frame rails are, etc.

    Over in the Subaru Crew threads a Volvo hit a Forester head on and the Volvo was totalled (I have photos if you want to see them).
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    I disagree. (not about wanting someone to hit something else, instead of you).

    SUV rollovers? Almost all of them happen because of the vehicle leaving the roadway. It is really hard to roll a car while on the pavement.

    I agree that if a collision is imminent, you should take evasive action. But, I see that maneuver multiple times weekly and it is almost always unnecessary. As I noted above, they don't ever make it past the rear bumper of the car in front of them.. Most of the time, these maneuvers come as a result of driver inattention. I don't think they could even tell you if the emergency lane is clear, before they do it.

    If you've ever seen a car strike the rear of a parked semi on the interstate emergency lane, you'll know what I mean.. I don't like seeing the EMTs getting the tarps out to screen off the accident site. :(

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,733
    well, totalled is OK. Its even pretty darned easy to total a car these days with the way they are designed and the expense of safety components. Its the injuries that count.

    but your point that one crash means nothing is absolutely correct.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    But still the argument can be made that we have been willing to give up a lot of road feel and connection for ease of use. I have had several cars with no power stearing, power brakes, or even power windows. Manual brakes gave you a direct feel even if they were a bit hard to mash down on at times. Once you are rolling not having power stearing was no big deal and you had direct feel of the corners in your vehicle. We were taught to pump the brakes to avoid locking the wheels in a skid. So all of that was related to driving feel. Yet today ABS is not a debatable issue. No one has complained about the loss of non assisted stearing. We simply get used to it and move on. In 2010 the manufacturers will be installing skid control on all new vehicles. These choices are things we simply learn to do without. I don't miss carburetors all that much even though I used to have a complete set of jets for class D or E Carters. Manuals offer something for people that simply prefer to try and do what a computer or machine will do for you. It is like people that prefer hand tools over power tools. If driving is a hobby or entertainment for someone maybe a manual is the transmission for them. But for the vast majority driving is a task and anything that makes the task easier will always be preferred.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The real reason it's better to avoid than lock up is because while they might have made it, the person behind them.. well, I can tell you my old 4x4 takes about 200 ft to stop from 70mph.

    Living here in L.A., I see it every day. And the number of times I see semis smoke their tires trying to avoid a car that ducked in front of them then hit the brakes - at least once a week.

    Also, hitting another car at an oblique angle is a good thing - 0 and 90 degrees are the worst of course, so swiping their rear a bit versus ramming them full-on...
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    "But still the argument can be made that we have been willing to give up a lot of road feel and connection for ease of use. "

    What do you mean, "We" and "willing"? "We" have had the choice taken from us kicking and screaming! I would be thrilled to once again have a car that did not NEED boosted steering or brakes or other "conveniences" that burden the bloated vehicles of today.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    With all due respect, if you haven't driven a twin-clutch DSG, you probably haven't experienced the best of modern gearboxes...BMW is dropping their roundly criticized SMG in favor of a twin-clutch and it is being adopted by everyone from Porsche to Mitsubishi as well. You can try one at your VW or Audi dealer right now.

    I have read positive things about the Audi DSG. Unfortunately, I haven't tried one, since Audi doesn't make a single car that appeals to me, with their insistence on producing excessively obese AWD cars. Not much into VW's either.

    I have driven a few BMW "steptronics" and was not impressed. No worse than the AMG automanuals, but still simply torque converter slushboxes in my book. Perhaps the new ZF automatic in the 335i/535i you refer to is better, but I doubt it wuld ever tempt me away from BMW's excellent 6-speed manuals.

    Interesting, by the way, that the "best" of the modern automatic gearboxes, according to Automobile magazine is the Ferrari F1 transmsission in the 430 and 599. It is an SMG, not a DSG. And, if I'm not mistaken, the actual Formula One race cars use SMG's, not DSG's. Wonder why Ferrari hasn't gone to DSG technology?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    SUV rollovers? Almost all of them happen because of the vehicle leaving the roadway. It is really hard to roll a car while on the pavement.

    SUV rollovers happen when the vehicle tries to get back on the pavement before they have enough stability in the vehicle. If you have a lip like -_, that can flip and SUV.

    I agree that it is very hard to roll a car while on pavement, a car requires a "trip" to roll (skidding sideways into a curb would constitute a trip), while an SUV does not. As soon as the roll center is no longer in a plane over the wheels, you're done (this is an EXCELLENT application for stability control).

    As I noted above, they don't ever make it past the rear bumper of the car in front of them.

    This is partially because humans suck at 2nd order estimations. It is pretty easy for a person to look and gauge their speed, or the speed of a vehicle at steady state, but humans are not so hot at gauging acceleration or deceleration.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,441
    No "locking up" with ABS... That's kind of the point.. ;)

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  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    If driving is a hobby or entertainment for someone maybe a manual is the transmission for them. But for the vast majority driving is a task and anything that makes the task easier will always be preferred.

    Once again, I'm not sure why you feel the need to generalize your own personal preferences into some absolute proclamation. Are you that insecure with your own personal choice as to feel the need to justify it with blanket statements like "always will be preferred"?

    First, I certainly don't find driving a hobby or do it for entertainment. But that doesn't mean I don't care about how a car drives, handles, accelerates or feels when I'm going somewhere. There is nothing wrong with making a task more enjoyable, and a manual transmission is a significantly more enjoyable (and not any less "easier") driving experience for me.

    Given that you can buy a perfectly fine base model Honda Accord or Toyota Camry for well under $20,000, what makes anyone spend considerably more? Or even a little more? Some folks want to be treated to a 20 speaker concert hall while their butt is being massaged and their car is parallel parking itself. I'd just as soon have a car that is fun to DRIVE.

    And, for the last time, I consider the manual transmission analogous not to a hand drill, but rather to natural fibers. Sure, polyester blends are more convenient and make the "task" of wearing clothes "easier" for some. But count me among those that will be old-fashioned cotton, wool or silk wearers that prefer the feel of those to a petrochemical based alternative. I may have to get them dry cleaned and pressed a little more often, but I can live with that "inconvenience".

    P.S. Had my old 1995 Nissan Maxima with 155,000 miles in for inspection last week and, although it is fine, I asked the Nissan service manager how much a clutch replacement would be. He had to look it up ($650), claiming that he can't ever remember doing one on a Maxima. On the other hand, he had just wrapped up a CVT repair that kept a 2 year old Maxima sidelined for a few weeks. So even for those with less discretionarly income, there is an economical consideration in this convenience trade off. And I can assure you, not everyone will prefer a CVT, SMG, or DSG when something goes wrong with it out of warranty.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    the generalization is easy to make when people put their choice on ease of use 9 to 1. I did mis-speak to daysaler when I said "we" gave up rather than had taken away our choices. But it is because of the 9 to 1 buying power of the consumer and the insistence of the government that I see things like the control of the driver input to be a issue. I am sure you have read the proposed legislation for skid control? Do you deny that it will mandate away some of the feel some might have for their car in a corner? Will you be able to fight such a legislation or will you like the masses simply accept it?

    daysaler is correct in that many gave up non boosted stearing reluctantly but it went away none the less. People could say they preferred the feel or direct connection all they wanted but power stearing is standard and that is the name of that game. Like I have said many times, with all the excellent reasons you have given for manuals they are still the minority transmission. And most people simply don't care enough to worry what the manufacturers offer as long as it is easy to use.

    The question in this forum has always been the future of the manual. Looking at issues that face auto-manufacturing in the US there is no reason to believe there will be any large scale return to manuals and every reason to suspect that manuals will occupy a smaller and smaller place in the future.

    It is easy to advertise 20 speaker sound systems and you can instantly hear the advantages of such a system without even leaving the showroom. It is easy to advertise heated seats and power moon roofs because sliding a small piece of plastic or glass two feet by hand is just not cool. But it simply is not easy to explain to someone that driving a dog leg in daily traffic is simply more fun. I am sure you have seen the new Altama commercial? They can say it is available with the new advanced CVT and 260 HP. That is easy to advertise because anyone can drive it and it is easier to sell. New and improved equates to ease of use in our culture and that isn't likely to change in the future. Manuals are already a niche market how will it get any better?

    You mentioned warrentee and one other selling point for many people is that with the ten year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warrentee offered by some manufacturers the transmission is covered 100 percent. Unless you opt for a manual and if heaven forbid you have to replace a clutch disk it is on your dime. Even if the disk has to be replaced at 30k miles.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    actually, what might happen is a group of people might become more vocal about their displeasure with increased complexity and cost for marginal advantage that a back-lash develops...

    manuals get better mileage, are less expensive to maintain, are cheaper, and more fun to drive.

    it's as simple as that.

    i highly doubt Honda for example will abandon the manual transmission.

    now the day Honda goes to drive by wire steering is the day my allegence to the company's automotive products goes bye-bye. there's no need to pursue it when they already produce a car with very competent driving dynamics and road force feedback.

    come to think of it, i prefer a cable linkage to the throttle body. i don't really want a drive by wire throttle system.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,617
    Thanks for doing a post that saved me the effort. Bring on the sailing, along with cotton & wool fabric.

    Oh yeah, and manual transmissions.

    When I bought my first Miata, in '91, I had to search a bit, but found one without power steering -- just like I wanted it. In '94, when I bought my second one, I got the "R" package which proudly did not include power steering.

    Oh, and my '71 KW came with "armstrong" steering. Wonderful control on the road, and good for the shoulders when spotting trailers.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    ""We" have had the choice taken from us kicking and screaming! I would be thrilled to once again have a car that did not NEED boosted steering or brakes or other "conveniences" that burden the bloated vehicles of today"

    Amen brother, and HALLELUJAH! I will most fervently second that sentiment. Of all the modern "conveniences", the only one I would perhaps keep is the power brakes, and that's it. And that's not exactly modern, my Corolla had power brakes 32 years ago.

    All these other so-called "innovations" are nothing more than weight-increasing annoyances that remove the driver from the drive, and they are one reason BMW is right now in the middle of losing its edge.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    no conversion needed here. i'm singing with you.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I am sure you have read the proposed legislation for skid control? Do you deny that it will mandate away some of the feel some might have for their car in a corner?

    I'm not sure what rock you've been sleeping under, but all of our vehicles (2004 TL 6-speed, 2005 MDX, 2005 911S) have stability control standard. As far as I know, all BMW's, Mercedes, Acuras, and most other premium brands have had stability control systems in their cars for several years if not a decade or more. You need to get out more.

    In the case of the 911, you can turn the PSM (Porsche stability management) system off, but it will still override and kick in under a severe, uncontrolled skid. The Porsche 911 Turbo and GT3 have identical systems, and I have never heard a single complaint from an owner, including those that go to a track. As a matter of fact, the lack of stability control in my former 2002 Honda S2000 was one of my few complaints - and they made it standard in the 2004 model.

    So once again, you are making a comparison that I think is far fetched. I don't know of any sane people that power slide around corners on their way to the office, such that even an undefeatable stability control system would be a detriment. But I personally don't appreciate the noticable hesitation I get taking a left turn at 10 mph from a dead stop with a slushbox (or M3 SMG).

    As far as your 9 to 1 majority rules claim, if we extrapolated that out, we'd all be living in vinyl sided tract houses in ubiquitous subdivisions. I only care that I have the choice to be in that 10% that drives a stick and the 10% that can tell the difference between Fallingwater and passing water.

    P.S. The only option I have on my 1995 Maxima SE 5-speed is ABS. I was on a tight budget, but with our first child on the way, valued safety. ABS cost $950 back then. No 10 speaker Bose stereo, no leather seats, no automatic climate control, no sunroof and NO $1,000 automatic transmission. But those ABS brakes saved me a couple of times, once when an 18 wheeler started sliding in a heavy downpour at night on the DC beltway. The resulting crash, which I narrowly avoided thanks to not locking up and sliding myself, sent a few people to the hospital and one to the cemetary.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I am sure you have read the proposed legislation for skid control? Do you deny that it will mandate away some of the feel some might have for their car in a corner? Will you be able to fight such a legislation or will you like the masses simply accept it?

    Apparently its easier to mandate an electronic system to drive the car by lowering the capabilities and limits than it is to teach people how to drive. That might be a parallel with the automatic transmission vs the manual...

    Most performance based systems have over-rides or some type of performance setting that gives the driver a little more control, but the Toyotas, Hondas and Fords aren't going to get that advanced a system. It will be like the "electronic traction control" where it just cuts power or grabs a brake instead of a true limited slip differential.

    At least it means that ABS is likely going to be standard across the board.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    As a matter of fact, the lack of stability control in my former 2002 Honda S2000 was one of my few complaints - and they made it standard in the 2004 model.

    That vehicle didn't need stability control, it needed a rear suspension redesign, which it also got in the 2004 model. Electronics don't compensate for design (re: "traction control" versus a real limited slip differential).
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "That vehicle didn't need stability control, it needed a rear suspension redesign, which it also got in the 2004 model."

    Not to digress, but I am not sure what you are talking about relative to the S2000 - and not sure if you know. As of the 2002 model year S2000, virtually no car under $100,000 could match its slalom speed and times. The 2005 Boxster S and Lotus Elise were the first to do so that I am aware of. Handling, steering and balance were exceptional. And, for what it's worth, the 2004+ model was tested as slightly slower through the slalom than the 2002, but I was under the impression that that was because of the lower revving 2.2 liter engine that replaced the 2.0 liter one. I have never heard any current or former S2000 owners claim any difference in the suspension setup for the 2004+ model (other than increase to 17" wheels), although you are free to enlighten me. Certainly among enthusaists I know, the 2003 model with it's 9,000 rpm engine is preferred to the 2004 model with the 8,000 rpm redline.

    Regardless, my point was that, even in a serious sports car, I wouldn't find a stability control system anywhere near as offensive as a slushbox in a daily driver.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Not to digress, but I am not sure what you are talking about relative to the S2000 - and not sure if you know. As of the 2002 model year S2000, virtually no car under $100,000 could match its slalom speed and times.

    The nickname for S2000s at Buttonwillow and Southern California autocrosses was "Frisbee," stealing the nickname from the mid-80s MR2.

    The S2000 and the Acura Integra Type R both had exceptionally high limits, but were incredibly unforgiving when they were reached or exceeded. The E36 M3 and Mazda RX7 were both easier to catch should one be caught on the wrong side of the envelope.

    The S2000 had a mild redesign of its rear suspension to make it a little more forgiving at the limit. That probably did more for stability and driver confidence than something retarding engine output and pushing the brakes.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Ah, there you have the proverbial nail on the head. It is easier to give people skid control, ABS than to teach them to drive. How far is that from it being easier to drive an automatic on a daily basis. I might understand Habitat's example about not hanging the rear end out on the way to work but then their isn't a lot of joyful fun driving on the way to work in any major city here in southern California. And there is no fun in rush hour traffic anywhere. As far as Honda not giving up on the manual. Maybe they won't. But what did they offer in the hybrid line? Just in case that is a direction we take? I know they offer a manual in a non hybrid civic but do they for their hybrids?
  • ggurr54ggurr54 Member Posts: 30
    In ten years there will be no more manual transmissions. They are obsolete now. There is very little advantage in mpg. As far as cost of ownership. Price a clutch replacement that comes with teaching a teenager to use one. I grew up with "manuals" on all types of heavy equipment I will not mourn their passing.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    There is very little advantage in mpg. As far as cost of ownership. Price a clutch replacement that comes with teaching a teenager to use one.

    8 Teenagers learned to drive manual transmission on a clutch that lasted 125,000, at which point it was replaced for under $500 (the maximum my Dad would allow me to put into a car with 12500 miles on it :P ).

    In contrast, a number of my friends got to shell out $1200 - 1800 to rebuild the automatic transmissions in their vehicles. If you think a teenager is hard on a clutch, you should see them with an auto.

    I also disagree that there is little difference in MPG. Both of our current manual equipped cars can beat their automatic counterparts in real world driving by 20%.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    In ten years there will be no more manual transmissions. They are obsolete now.

    Just out of interest, why is the manual obselete now?

    I come from a country in which virtually everyone learns to drive on a manual, somehow they are not in a severe clutch shortage.
  • leyrerleyrer Member Posts: 8
    I think we'll be seeing more manual transmissions in the future, not less. I belive that the equivalent of $3.50/ gallon gas years ago is what compelled European drivers to drive cars with manual transmissions (and diesels). If US gas prices sustain $3+ prices, drivers will change their preferences. In the meantime, I'll hang on to my '96 until auto manufacturers offer European drivetrains. This is why, despite being in the market for a new small SUV, I won't buy a Toyota RAV4, Honda CRV or Ford Escape (no manual XLT). If VW offers a 6-speed manual Tiguan, they will get my business. For all you manual transmission affectionados, vote with your wallet and auto manufacturers will get the message.
  • exner60exner60 Member Posts: 11
    I recently purchased a 2007 Mercury Milan Premier 5-speed. This is my first FoMoCo product since 06/86. I had wanted to stay with MoPar. However, they made the choice for me. Gone from the Avenger/Sebring line was the manual transmission. Since I didn't want a Caliber/Compass or Nitro, I had to look elsewhere.

    As has been mentioned in other posts, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan offer manuals in their mid-size (Accord, Camry, and Altima) offerings as well as their entry-level offerings (Civic, Corolla, and Sentra). The Europeans do the same.

    Getting back to my new purchase, I expected a "gotcha" as I started building my Milan on-line. Surely there would be the option conflict: fog lights and/or heated seats can't be had with the manual, etc. Nope. The only combo that I couldn't get with the manual was the navigation system which I hear FoMoCo has changed for '08.

    I purchased the Mercury because the Camry SE didn't allow fog lights or leather with the manual (as a matter of fact, the Camry SE 5-speed is only available in the Pacific Northwest or in the Southeast: I'm in Connecticut). Neither did the Altima. The Accord EX-L was approaching way more than I wanted to spend.

    Ironically, the Mazda6 allows buyers to select the I4 or V6 with a manual. (The Ford/Mercury limits the manual to the I4.) The navigation system is available with either the manual or the automatic. The problem here was that no dealer had a manual with navigation system so I would have to wait 6 to 8 weeks for one.

    Manuals will never outsell automatics in the U.S. However, by dropping manuals, the domestic brands are conceding buyers to the imports. For some, this will be their first purchase. What chance will there be to get them to consider domestics after starting with imports?
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669
    I came across this from an old issue of Winding Road
    it dovetails with my experience of driving a DSG equipped Audi TT:

    Running through the twisties is a blast in the A3. The flat torque curve is part of the deal, but the DSG transmission helps as well. The DSG shifting is amazingly smooth – smoother than most automatics. It’s also fast. This paired with the paddle shifters makes it easy to whip across a country road, doing your best Schumacher imitation. With just a pull on the paddles or the floor lever, the transmission snaps upshifts and downshifts at will. And, because there’s no torque converter as you’d have in an automatic, getting on the power provides an immediate response. Certainly, you could have just as much fun with a regular manual. The A3, which is also available with a six-speed manual, might feel faster in that configuration because of the little extra burst of acceleration you get as you let out the clutch on each shift. In other words, your best shift will never be as smooth as what DSG does with its two clutches, but that very lack of smooth shifting can feel a little faster.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    That no-V6-manual is the gotcha that stopped me from trying a Fusion/Milan.

    I'm sure your new car is great but you can't leave the Accord at the on-line price, dealers are discounting in preparation for the '08 release.
  • exner60exner60 Member Posts: 11
    I understand about the 5-speed V6. However, I was coming from a 2004 Dodge Ram 2500 HEMI 5-speed that averaged 11 mpg. As a real estate agent, I do a lot of "around town" kind of driving. The I4 is actually OK for me.

    Here in Connecticut, imports sell better than domestics. I visited two different Honda dealerships and no one had the EX-L 5-speed. It's harder to negotiate a discount when they don't have one in stock.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I have never heard any current or former S2000 owners claim any difference in the suspension setup for the 2004+ model (other than increase to 17" wheels), although you are free to enlighten me.

    Lil' is right. After the babies started complaining about the zero-margin setup on the original S2000, Honda continuously tweaked the suspension each year through 2002 or 3 to put more transition in the car, then redid it one last time for the boat anchor 17s. The MY 00s have the best grip, but the snap oversteer is wholly unforgiving. The early 350Zs and G35s also got dinged for that behavior, which seems to be one of the perils of a front-midship layout.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    It will be interesting to see what a Porsche's DSG feels like in a real sports car like the 911 or Cayman S.

    As for the Audi system, as I've said before, it's a shame it can only be tested in Audi's mimicry of a sports car, the still highly obese TT Quatro. It may be less obese, with the most recent redesign, but that would be like giving Rosie O'Donnell credit for losing 20 lbs. Still an extra 80 lbs of blubber. (I wouldn't be critical of the TT as much if they would just call it a GT coupe or something other than a "sports car".)

    But, in any event, even I will give the Posrche DSG's a try, even though I expect I will never be able to justify spending an extra $3,500+ for a transmission that is "just as much fun" as a regular manual.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Ahh yes but even you can see the temptation of the DSG. And even admitting that one might try it will in the mind of some be a move towards the dark side.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I'm never afraid to try something (legal and moral, that is). Even if the only purpose is to be able to speak intelligently and from personal experience.

    I tried the BMW SMG's, the Porsche Tiptronics, the BMW steptronics and the AMG manumatics. Why wouldn't I try the Porsche DSG? But so far, nothing I've tried has given me the slightest temptation to go to the "dark side". And even if the Porsch DSG addressed all of my performance and "feel" issues, I sure as heck wouldn't pay $3,500 for it, plus face the potential of much more costly repairs down the road. It would have to be a no-cost, 100k warranty option to begin to tempt me. And if you know Porsche, there is no such thing as a no cost anything. ;)
  • trispectrispec Member Posts: 305
    My RX-8 AT paddle sifter with Dynamic Stability Control and Limited Slip Differential rear drive is essentially the future minus the rotary engine of course.

    Three years running the RX-8 won Car & Drivers best sports coupe and the last comparison of the Audi TT, 'Stang Shelby, 350 Z, and RX-8 had the RX-8 winning because of RX-8's comprehensively stunning driving manners.

    As with all other mechanisms, removal of the human ego and reflex, vastly improves the machines purpose and performance. My RX-8 paddle shifts smoother, more efficiently and ten time faster than any human. A computer controls the shifting process, which some find evil, but really, how can a human hope to possible optimize three dimensional G forces along with dozens of other inputs never making a single mistake.

    NASCAR continues to require the manual shift, but all other racing forms have dropped the requirement. What happens when engines move to majority electric shifting gears?

    Lastly, driving a manual shift in huge areas of the United State's urban landscape it plain silly. The days of building new roads to end traffic congestion are over. Congestion is here to stay, and manual shifting transmissions are going away very soon.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116

    Three years running the RX-8 won Car & Drivers best sports coupe and the last comparison of the Audi TT, 'Stang Shelby, 350 Z, and RX-8 had the RX-8 winning because of RX-8's comprehensively stunning driving manners.


    I don't share their enthusiasm for that particular model. I am glad that you are enjoying it as much as CD.

    removal of the human ego and reflex, vastly improves the machines purpose and performance.

    So it steers itself as well?

    Lastly, driving a manual shift in huge areas of the United State's urban landscape it plain silly. The days of building new roads to end traffic congestion are over.

    And man oh man do I feel sorry for people who have those horrendous commutes so they could buy a house and take up more space...oh wait, no I dont.

    Congestion is here to stay, and manual shifting transmissions are going away very soon.

    Yeah, sucks to live there ;) I have a 25 minute commute on an interstate and a state highway and then a couple of feeder streets. I think "going away" is too vague of a term, I don't think they are a big chunk of the market now because Americans are, on the whole, lazy and dull, and just see vehicles as transportation and don't understand mass transit.
  • trispectrispec Member Posts: 305
    ...Americans are on the whole lazy and dull....?

    In all of human history, no society or culture has every been so opposite of lazy and dull. American's have taken over the whole world because we are positively hyper actively energetic and insideously genius.

    Traditional manual stick shifts in cars is just becoming a dumb technology given the driving environment and levels of technology currently available.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    You have got to be kidding. The RX-8 is probably one of the best examples I could cite for illustrating the negatives of a slushbox in a so-called sports car.

    Mazda/Ford, in their infinite stupidity, took the RX-8 from a weirdly decent quasi-sports car/coupe in 6-speed manual mode and turned it into a wounded duck in slushbox mode. They dropped the engine power by 20 hp and the redline/peak output by 1,000 rpm. The performance went from fair to downright anemic. They took a low efficiency 1.3 liter rotary engine and further castrated it of its only redeeming quality - a smooth high revving powerband. Honda got it right with the S2000 - 6-speed manual only. And I don't need to tell you which car has far superior performance, far better fuel efficiency, considerably better resale value and infinitely more respect among serious enthusiasts.

    I never got it. RX-8 slushbox for what purpose? Perhaps so somebody who can't drive a stick can try to look good? But for someone who can (drive a stick), to buy a detuned slushbox version so they can play game boy on the steering wheel while stuck in bumper to bumper traffic on a suburban sprawl commute? Come on. Tell me that you opted for a comfy automatic, smart cruise controlled E320 Bluetec that will run like clockwork for 12+ years and 200k+ miles, sipping diesel at 30-35+ mpg in traffic. I can understand and appreciate that. But an underpowered paddle shifted 16-18 mpg wannabe sports coupe? If that's your vision of a bright future, you have my deepest condolences.

    The manual gearbox in the RX-8 is crisp, easy to use and complimentary to the engine characteristics. The A/T in the RX-8 is an embarassment. Period.
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