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Its in the same boat as those people who wait 15 minutes for the front spot at the gym, instead of walking in from the spot in the back.
The gym in town is right next door (literally) to an office building. As I am walking the mile to the gym I pass by and see people drive out one driveway and turn in the next (<200 yards away).
I am totally in awe at the paradox.
Many other examples - waiting 5 minutes to take the elevator up one floor, running the car for 15 minutes in the drive through when there is no line inside etc. etc.
Unfortunatly we are a society that puts a huge premium on convenience, simplicity and the path of least resistance. The venerable manual transmission is not those things. It is a product of logic and action.
Quite the opposite. I meant to imply that someone that gets even a modicum of real exercise would find it hard to claim that pressing in a clutch is "tiring", and that automatics let you "rest a leg".
I didn't even ask the price. Window sticker was around $135k. But if you like the Boxster S Tiptronic, you should love the 911 Turbo one. And you could probably cut a decent deal on one with only 180 miles. :surprise:
I want to shift and the rest happens like hitting a tennis ball or any other physical activity that you have done so often that you no longer notice the basics - or the activity anymore.
but I sure notice it when I get stuck in an automatic on a trip. The lag, the sluggardly behavior in traffic. The numbness and lack of feedback... And when I get home, I am happy. Usually I take an hour before work the next day to hi a few mountain roads for fun.
Because two clutches are better than one.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I spoke with him yesterday, and he tells me that he prefers driving the Subaru to any of the automatics he has access to - one of them being his mom's 300C with a Hemi! He tells me he still stalls it from time to time, but is learning quickly.
So, another driver who prefers stick to slushbox.
I grew up in a 1 car household (not counting my father's work truck, but even most of them were sticks!), so for me and my 2 sisters, it was learn stick or walk. Needless to say, no one wanted to walk.
And, we all bought sticks for our first (and in some cases, many past that) cars.
I am the last hold out of the siblings. One gave it up for a TL and the Washington beltway, the other for a Maxima and kids learning to drive (my neice has some driving "issues")
My mother, at 75, still drives a stick (Saturn). My late grandmother drove a stick ('86ish Excel, what a piece of crapola) into her 80's when she had to give up driving entirely.
Must be a genetic thing.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I don't see you complaining about those things.
I remember my wife had a Mirage with no power steering, talk about an upper body workout!
Managing a clutch is nothing compared to that.
Shifting gears a bit (pardon the pun)....
At Zoom Zoom Live, groups of people were driving Miatas around a short track, and the numbers for the automatics were consistently quicker. Quicker fastest laps and quicker on average.
Perhaps it's because people can keep their heads up, or keep their feet on the dead pedal, who knows, they were just faster.
Oh, and as far as a Mirage with manual steering. You had it easy! ;b
Try a Jeep CJ7 with 33x10.50 tires and manual steering! (my first vehicle)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Still, the clutch is light and easy to learn. You'd think any experienced clutch operator would be pretty familiar with those.
It was surprising because a slush box usually kills a small displacement 4 banger.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The lines were LOOOOONG so I didn't do that particular course. I drove a stick Miata on the course where you had to try to keep a golf ball from slipping out of a bowl they had secured to the hood.
I did not see any evidence of this at the zoom zoom live event that I attended. Quite the opposite, lots of sqealing, smoking tires.
But I am surprised at the report of automatic being faster. Can not say that I noticed this, but I drove RX-8 more than anything...that was definitely faster with the manual.
There was not much shifting needed on the courses, pretty much it was shift to second and stay there.
The first car I actually paid for was a '74 CJ-5. I had learned to shift on a manual steering '57 Chevy, so the shifting was ok. But when I took the Jeep on the test drive, I turned right out of the dealership into a neighborhood and promptly jumped the curb. :shades:
I haven't kept up with the off-road debate - lots of people say you have more control at Moab or mudding with an automatic Jeep though.
We watched people drive while we were in line for something else. The results kept surprising us - auto was faster almost every time.
Wonder if 2nd gear is just shorter on the auto? Doubt it, though.
The manual transmission speed6 was much faster, but was not really a fair comparison with the speed6 being AWD and having ESC, plus less weight in front. The V6 was suffering from much more understeer and many drivers went off the course hitting cones.
It had much more to do with better weight distribution, the aforementioned AWD an extra 70 horsepower and real performance tires than anything with ESC.
Oh, mine was a 3-speed manual, by the way. I think if you learn on an old manual jeep, you can drive just about any pedestrian car.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
My tires were only 31 X 10.5, though....
Wait a minute... maybe that was the Pathfinder? :confuse:
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I do remember that the clutch was a bit stiff.
Mine was the only one in town that had the wide all-terrain tires, but didn't have the rubber fender extensions. If I went 4-wheeling, it would throw mud up on the inside of my windshield, and all over my left arm..
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Mine was also an I6. That 4.2 was a great engine, IMHO. Of course, I always imagined doing a 5.9 conversion for fun.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't see you complaining about those things.
I remember my wife had a Mirage with no power steering, talk about an upper body workout!
Eh, if moving 155SR13 tires around on a sub-2500lb car constitutes a workout, that is sub-optimal. Check your tire inflation pressure. Or, really hit the gym.
I don't know of anyone that got a workout from adjusting a non-power mirror, and I don't even know if you can get non-power windows on a mainstream midsize car, but I really never minded them. My Galant and Civic were small enough that I could manually roll down each window from the driver's seat, including the back ones.
Eh I suppose that is one argument. I personally don't buy it, but that is because I think most drivers are lazy, and would be happier/better served on the train.
I have no experience with DSG transmissions so am not qualified to hold an opinion on them, however my arguement against automatics is not related to the whether the driver is lazy.
It's the control and pleasure in driving that I think gets lost in a regular automatic (including the manumatics since they will still shift themselves if they deem it necessary).
I would not find it convenient to lose the ability to get my engine revs exactly where I want them based on what I need the car to do.
I do like power locks and windows on a 4 door because you can't reach all 4 doors, but on a two door forget it. Best car I had was an '80 Scirocco manual everything (except for power brakes). Imagine something similar today. Take a Civic, lose 150 lbs of fluff (power stuff) , gain some hp from fewer accessories (power steering) - suddenly the car is much faster, handles better with better road feel, stops quicker, and gets better gas mileage. Just for losing a little "luxury"
Seems like we have all become like the princess and the pea - some of us just need more mattresses to isolate us than others.
Yeah, some were slightly heavy when parking, but not too bad. You just cranked a lot!
Best of the bunch was my '85 Colt. Had the turbo suspension and tires (185/60s, huge for the day!), but not the turbo engine
Anyway, the colt probably handled better than just about any other car I have owned. Great steering feel, stuck like glue. Nice weight to it.
It is nice to feel the road and be connected. Much different than my Accord, where the steering is actually a bit too light.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
"Conveniences" such as power windows are simply that - convenient ways to do the same thing easier, better or more efficiently. And no, I wouldn't call someone lazy for wanting to be able to push a digital button to get their desired radio station rather than fuss around with a rotating analog dial to manually tune in a frequency.
But, as bristol2 said, going from a manual transmission to an automatic (slushbox, smg or dsg) fundamentally changes the driving experience and reduces the amount of direct control. Perhaps those that don't recognize the difference don't fall into redsoxgirl's "lazy" category, but they would qualify for the "ignorant" or "apathetic" classification. The latter of which I can accept. I know many people who consider driving a necessary evil to get for point a to point b and have absolutely no interest or desire in having more control. They would prefer to be back seat passengers. But while it's a choice to say "I don't care", it's ignorant to say, "there's no difference".
IMO, the lack of a clutch pedal is more comparable to power windows that require the window to be all the way up or all the way down.
the lack of the manual clutch changes the experience of driving in a pretty fundamental way
habitat1 wrote:
fundamentally changes the driving experience and reduces the amount of direct control
True, but then so does Power Steering. You lose feedback from the road, it numbs the steering, changes the steering ratio, the turns lock to lock, and changes the whole experience just as significantly.
Our grandparents might say the automatic starter took away the only direct mechanical connection our hands had to the engine!
I had a motorcycle with a manual choke button. I was in touch with the engine, tuning it on the fly myself. You guys rely on modern ECUs to do that, that takes away all the soul, you're not involved at all with the actual engine besides throttle position, and guess what - even the throttle is by wire nowadays! HEAVENS! :surprise:
I never said I don't recognize the difference, but you both seem to draw the line at a very arbitrary place - the clutch pedal.
So my question is this - why is the clutch pedal more sacred than manual steering? Manual starters? Manual choke adjustment? Linear (vs. by-wire) throttle control?
I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. 2 of our 3 cars are manuals.
Most people do not consider driving to be a recreational activity. Perhaps those of you who do, ought to consider the possibility that you are the odd ones.
Even some people who *do* care about the driving experience may want to be able to keep their left foot firmly on the dead pedal so they better stay in their seat.
How many of us have racing harnesses in our cars to hold us in place? Probably none. We rely on the dead pedal, which you can't use when you're clutching.
Look at modern race cars - sequential shifters sans clutches are common, and having a clutch could be a significant disadvantage.
For me, the manual is convenient because I am never caught flat footed in the engine. If I need to pass at the moment of my choosing I can, if I need the engine to enhance my stopping distance I can do that too.
I guess that, for me, the manual is just MORE convenient than an auto.
What I don't care about is playing with a clutch pedal and shifter. I find my new automatic to be pretty good at choosing the proper gear to be in and quickly shifting to it. They have really improved in this regard.
About the only negative to me is when initially starting up from a stop, that is really the only time the slushiness detracts a bit from the experience for me. But I am pretty happy with the trade-offs in going to an automatic, after 20+ years of mostly manuals, so far.
If I were to get a CVT or DSG, I imagine I would be 100% happy with the switch.
OK, I'm happy now.
I think your comment applies more to the generic slush boxes, though, and not the better systems like DSG.
I believe DSG actually shifts quicker, so you can still choose your gear, only sooner and by having to do far less, including not having to remove your foot from the dead pedal.
Certainly I am referring to the traditional slush-box. I will say that as much as they may improve, my wife's old 3-Series auto was great with quick reflexes, but it was still slower to kick in than I am by selecting the gear at the moment I want it.
Finally, I know we have been round and round on reliability, but I believe that my manual's life-span is firmly up to me. An auto's life span is more dependant on the engineers and manufacturer of the car.
That I can understand as a sacrifice. Often they are good, but they still won't get the ratio you want every time. The best ones come close, though.
DSG gives you full control of the ratio, so there's far less of a trade-off.
I do find that I feel more comfortable on slippery surfaces with a manual transmission and a manually operated clutch pedal, and I find I get better fuel economy than in automatic transmission versions of the same vehicles. When I am involved in a contest of speed, I am much more comfortable because I know the car isn't going to shift in the middle of a turn or something. For track events, it is usually just a matter of shifting between 2nd and 3rd anyway, and for auto-cross, the guy who typically lays out the courses for our region seems to favor staying in 2nd gear the whole time.
If all the manual transmissions go away, will I find something else? I think so, but at that point all the cars will run on cow farts and wont be a whole lot of fun to drive anyway (if we even drive them at all, vs just sitting there and letting them take us to our destination). Maybe I can just ride the Cannondale.
I still think the clutch is being singled out as an arbitrary line in the sand where we suddenly lost control of our cars.
I'd argue that we've been losing control for a long time.
I'd argue that we've been losing control for a long time.
I think it is somewhere between throttle-by-wire and stability control where we "lost control," figuratively speaking. I am not saying these new technologies are bad though, there is something almost romantic about pushing the gas pedal and operating a linkage that is holding open a number of butterflies on a large carb, but man, fuel injection doesn't care if its hot or cold or if you are in the mountains or at the ocean...
Introducing the Underscore Phake Clutch Pedal and Shifty's Sham Shift Lever. Both connect easily with Velcro to any make or model car with an automatic. Gives you the real feeling of a 6 (or 8 or 10!) speed without the hassle and depreciation of owning a real stick shift car. Enjoy doing something while you are stuck in a 30 mile backup on your commute. Impress your friends and mechanic. Only $600 the pair or $325 individually.
Squeaky clutch return springs optional. Patent pending. :shades:
For years I have preferred 4wd to AWD. 4wd allows me to decide when and if I need all 4 wheels connected. Many today would freely debate the logic I might have for that older system. It is simply personal preference. Still for Americans it is what is more convenient. Gear selection? You can get more with a automatic. Ease of use? Shorter learning curve. Larger selection? Most people seem to agree but still the clutch pedal seems to be the dividing point.