Tundra vs. Big 3

andy_jordan

with the handle 'woody24' - makes ya wonder!

present4u

I'm going to have to agree with you here, pal -- I also have a story to share.

During the Gulf War, my pal Ralph was a 4.2 mortarman in the US Army 2nd Cavalry. The 'four-deuce' 120mm mortar is mounted in the open-topped rear end of a GMC-built M-113 APC. During the 100 hour land war, his 'track's' engine failed and left him stranded. In that situation, the rest of the armored column continued with it's objective but radioed a recovery vehicle to assist my stranded buddy. He spent a day and a half in enemy territory defending his position in his disabled APC sweating bullets the whole time praying that an Iraqi Republican Guard unit wouldn't capture or kill him and his crew.

70 hours or so later, they spotted a dust cloud on the horizon. Grabbing their binoculars, they identified a lone vehicle making it's way toward their position. The vehicle stopped, fired a flare indicating they were friendlies, and drove up when Ralph returned the signal. It was a Toyota Land Cruiser carrying three Saudi commandos who had volunteered to bring the US soldiers to safety. Ralph made a point of telling me how delighted he was to be chauffered to a US Army rallying point in a leather-trimmed Toyota diesel LC with the air conditioner blasting away and Arabian disco music pounding from the tape deck. He said those Saudis had the best of everything - far superior Austrian rifles, equipment, Gore-Tex cold weather gear, radios, English boots, Italian designer sunglasses, rations (pre-grilled lambchops and a microwave), Cuban cigarillos, Swiss watches, German binoculars, Turkish hashish, French mineral water, and that awesome pimped-out Japanese Toyota Land Cruiser. Seems like the King of Araby only buys the absolute best for his Royal Army. The USA could learn something from this, I think considering that soldiers and Marines nowadays moonlight or take welfare to supplement their meager income.

The Saudis told him that a US Army HUMMWV rescue team was sent to get them, but they got hopelessly stuck in a sand dune 50 miles from Ralph's position.

I know one combat vet who'd rather go to war in a Toyota Land Cruiser than any UAW made iron deathtrap.

woody24

RE; 316, means nothing to me. I typed in my request, Edmunds gave me this user name. Don't read into it too much eh.

quadrunner500

GoreTex in Saudi Arabia? Land Cruisers for armored personnel carriers? Disco?

With friendlies like that, who needs enemies?

bmckenzie

I have a hard time believing the Hashish thing, after spending two years in the Gulf from 95 to 97, I know for a fact Drug posession is punishable by execution, and I have seen Public Execution in Saudi Arabia. The Japanese supplied Toyota Landcruisers, FJ40's and FJ40 pickups during the war, the American Armed Forces still drive them over there, I had over 50 in my Motor Pool, along with Land Rover Discos, Ford Crown Victorias, Chevy Caprices, and Chevy Suburbans, some were Fully Armored and Medium Armored (glass and body plates)..........Bill

Rocles

present4u,

Love to know the brand of those "superior" Austrian rifles. Must have been dropped only once, eh?

bud_light_dude

Post #321, Now THAT is a gut buster!!!!

LOL....:)

quadrunner500

Not sure where they come from, but it is indeed a very nice rifle.

One reason the Saudis get the Land Cruiser is because they don't know how to drive the Apache!

andy_jordan

I was in Northern Ireland at the time - no better believe me.

Anyway, I too know people who were delighted to see the Saudis approaching - after all the Americans were as likely to shoot at the Brits as the Iraqis.

rcoos

As a gulf war vet, I would like to know if that is some sort of cheap shot at the US Military? I realize that in war, things happen! I see from your profile that you are a canadian! It's ease to be a monday morning quarterback! Did you serve in your military?
rcoos (a proud US vet!!!)

andy_jordan

No offense meant, it was meant to be a light hearted throw away.

I am an ex pat Englishman, yes I served, that's why I was in Ulster at the time. If you read my posts frequently you would know I don't take cheap shots at people.

Genuinely, no offense meant

present4u

It's Ralph's story, but he's told it in my presence enough that the hashish part has always been part of the tale. As far as I am concerned, the Saudis execute you for bringing home C's on your report card, so I dunno. What I do know is that stemming the drug trade hasn't been successful anywhere on the face of the Earth, so why would Saudi Arabia be an exception? Beats my pair of Jacks.

He does have pictures of the Saudis and their Landcruiser, as well as his disabled APC-113. Another thing I should have mentioned is that the Saudi camouflage was so good, they seem to disappear into the landscape at close range. The pics are amazing. The US troops look like simple sand-colored soldiers easily seen at any distance, while the Saudis are almost invisible in every shot.

The rifles the Saudis use are Steyr AUGs. Ralph mentioned that his M-16 was impossible to keep clean, as the insides would fill with powdery talcum-like dust after the frequent sandstorms no matter how determined he was to protect it. They finally used plastic wrap and rubber bands to seal their rifles to keep them clean, while other nation's forces could keep theirs immediately ready for action.

But hey, this is a truck forum.

swobig

Saudi vs. USA???

Rocles

Yes, It's a truck forum but it incites me as an ex-Marine to hear about how freakin' great the Saudis are as a military force.
Let's get a few things straight. The entire Saudi military owes everything--EVERYTHING--to the USA. While your friend was mentioning the hashish--did he mention that he also high at the time? All tactics, strategy, logistics, and SUPERIOR USA AIR-Force was brought in by the Americans. Also brought in was BALLS! If it wasn't for Bush(A real hero), Baker, Powell and USA itself, Kuwait would be kissing Saddam's [non-permissible content removed].
The rest of the sand-jerks would be quaking in their boots as well since they (Saudis, et.all) had no spirit to fight Iraq. As the Brits in WW2 demostrated, it's easy to be a "supporting" ally. Sure, then you can claim how "you" would have fought, yadda yadda yadda........
As you can tell, I get flustered and pissed (and offensive) when I hear about the lackeys that sit in the background when action is needed. To show how Pathetic all other nations are--it took (which in my opinion was wrong) Clinton --gasp--Clinton to show leadership to the European weenies how to take care of their own backyard.
Personally, I would love for the US to lay off and watch teh critics sweat it out for a change. Our military deserves a higher respect that only it's own citizens can appreciate.


--OFF soapbox now--

I rarely invoke my past but when the I hear about those Saudis......oh--do they fly F-14s? Hmmmm...who taught them that?

obyone

flown from carriers? Maybe we are referring to F-15's? Nothing to do with Tundra's or Big 3 though. Anyway, I was just curious.

present4u

I don't think anyone said that the Saudi military was superior to US troops, just that they had far better equipment in all areas. I barely understand your screed, due to all of your saliva covering the text.

If you're a body builder, you may want to lay off the Andro N-19 and Creatine mix, because your testosterone level is far too high: You're quick to anger and are delusionally fabricating that strangers are deliberately trying to insult you.

Try reading for a change, instead of jumping to unfounded conclusions. You're exhibiting classic symptoms of 'Chevropathy'.

By the way, I'm a recovering US Marine too. Try to relax some.

tundrasaursrex

Yeah they were F-15's. I went to USAF pilot training with Saudi prince (Saw a picture of his F-15 waiting for him with his name painted on it...and he wasn't even a fighter pilot yet!!!) and Kuwaiti. Great guys, lacked any motivation.

I did see a lot of Land cruiser there. But not like the US versions. Much more utilitarian. Lots of Diesels They didn't have power windows, leather, CD changers, moon roofs, etc.

And as I Gulf war vet, I have to agree 100% with rocles. Easy to act tough when you're buddies with the neighborhood [non-permissible content removed]-kicker and he's standing right next to you!

Rocles

obyone,
Yes, I mis-spoke..(not a first), rather F-15s.

present4u,
Sorry that I'm not keeping a girlish figure like yourself but your response was jibberish. "Chevropathy"?? What is that? I'd love to see an explanation on that one.......

tundarsaurus,
In spite of your name, I thank you for actually understanding my rant.

swobig

out with a truck. Anyone know any specifics???

barlitz

It seems the best engine will be getting better.In 2003 the 5.4 will be upgraded from 2 valves to 3 along with vct and dual spark plugs.The HP will be 325 and tourque will be 385.

z71bill

But did Ford solve the piston slap problem with the 5.4? How can the best engine have this major problem? Do you have low standards? Does this improvement solve the poor gas mileage of the 5.4 or does it now get 12 MPG?

swobig

I hope it happens though...

barlitz

The piston slap was solved in early 99.I had two 99 5.4's my lightning built 5/99 and my F250 built 8/99 neither had the piston slap.The 5.4 3valve is a go and will be available in 2003.Swobig if you have a Ford now ,I would recommend the superchip I installed mine 2 days ago and there is a big improvement on transmission shifting alone and there's definately more power and tourque.

barlitz

At the pichuptruck.com site there is an article on the honda pickup it will have the GM engine.

swobig

don't have a ford, just bought a 1/2 ton Chevy Ext. Cab 4X4 with the LT package using the GMS employee plan. Nice truck, would have considered the ford, but fuel mileage is a concern for me and the Chevy gets 2 MPG better, is Ford's fuel mileage going to get any better?? I sure hope so, that was my biggest turnoff. I've driven them all and mileage was a big factor...

swobig

but just couldn't bring myself even close to buying it. Rear seat room, mileage, price were my biggest drawbacks. Although it does look like a good alternative for someone who's feed up with the Big 3. Nissan, Honda, Mercedes will probably all join the battle someday and before you know it we will have seven or eight brands to choose from instead of four...

barlitz

I've never driven a Chevy or Dodge for some reason I like the fords,someday I might go out and testdrive a Chevy and a Dodge maybe even a Toyota but I would have to wear a bag over my head so no one sees me.

bud_light_dude

Naaaw! Seems that many have jumped off the brand loyalty wagon. I would if I ever found a better truck for the money. My Chevy's have always been the best and most for my money. The day they aren't, I will have no problems looking elsewhere and I won't need a bag over my head.

swobig

I know what you mean. My dad worked at a GM plant until he retired 2 years ago. Grew up a chevy guy, didn't want anything to do with a Ford (Fill Oil Reservoue Daily), but have had many over the past 10 years and there good trucks. In my opinion there the only thing comparable to Chevy right now. When Dodge comes out with there new engines in the 1/2 & 3/4's they will be better. Toyota, I'd have to wear the bag, but to me it's all about value and I looked, but still feel Chevy's are the best value. But, not by a whole bunch...

ferris47

Seems like Toyota has hit a nerve with the size of the Tundra. Just checked out PUTC and it seems quite a few manufacturers are trying to make their own Tundra sized truck. I think the average person wants a nice mid to just under full sized truck. I personally like the artist rendition of the Honda and the new bigger S10. I can't wait to see a bigger S10 with Chevy's 4.8 in there. As for a Honda truck, the thought of a Honda "Quality Product" backed up by a good ole GM bulletproof V8 kinda gets me excited. I am not trying to start any wars here, just letting you guys know what PUTC had to say about some of the cool new toys on the horizon. I really need to make more money.

tracyo

I agree with your comments about test driving the other trucks. Before I got my superduty I did stop and look at the Chevy, my 7 year old son would not even get out and look at it,I did not drive it. I did not even stop and look at the toy tundra, I think you need to have a pair of panties on before driving one of them, that's not for me.

swobig

but when you can get a full sized for roughly the same price why not? My Silverado fits fine in my garage, handles pretty well, and has good power. I'm sure the midsizers are more garagable, probably handle a little better and have equal power, but it is a truck. Think it will take a little while longer for mid sized to take hold. Priced a quad cab Dakota against my Silverado (basically same equipment) and the quad cab was $2000 cheaper. Figured it was worth the extra $2K in the long run so I bought the Silverado...

Rocles

Chevy would be foolish to enlarge the S-10 to a mid-size level. Compete with the Tundra and Dakota would be a loss in more sales while the Tacoma and Ranger gobble up true compact buyers. And all of this is neglecting the full-size market which continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

quadrunner500

The S10 ZR2 is so big, I see no family resemblance to the little '90 S10 I have. It looks pretty close to the mid size level already.

swobig

I think the small ones will only get a little bigger. S-10 is getting bigger, wouldn't be suprised if Ranger grows a little and Honda and others come out with a mid-sized truck. I think compacts will grow a little. Just my 2 cents...

david6

In my book the key difference in what truck I buy is the space between the wheel-wells in the bed. If I want to work the truck and put plywood or drywall flat in the bed, as soon as the truck shrinks enough so that I can't do this, it doesn't much matter how big it is, so it might as well be tiny. The Tundra has the distance in the bed to make it "full-size"-ish in that I could lay materials flat, but otherwise is smaller in general, so makes a nice balance in fitting my needs. However, due to the price difference and no limited slip, I have decided to risk domestic and will almost certainly buy an F-150. And, no, I don't care about the extra room in the extended cab, since I will be storing tools back there, not people, except on rare occasion. So, the Tundra is sized right, but priced and optioned wrong for me.

david6

I meant to finish that . . . "so, the s-10 might as well stay small, because to get big enough to haul materials flat, it would compete with the silverado. If anything, make the silverado bigger, then get a Tundra-sized chevy in there so that I can get the bed capacity but not the amazing length (and width, I guess) of the current Silverado."
BTW, the trucks I have in mind when I say this are extended cab short-beds.

ferris47

I think the truck market right now is not made up of a majority of traditional truck buyers. What I mean by that is how many trucks do you see get sold or on the road that actually get used as a truck the majority of the time? Now the market for personal use pickups is booming. The market seems to want and most certainly be willing to pay for slightly smaller trucks that handle as well as cars, fit in all standard garages, are easy to park, and can still haul the toys around or get the stuff from Home Depot to finish that back porch off. I love my Tundra because it fits those needs better then any other competetor bar none for me.

Now I do agree that if you are hauling your big ole 5th wheel on a daily or weekly basis or you are a construction foreman or roofer etc. etc. Then you should be buying a heavy duty 3/4 or 1 ton that currently only the domestics offer. Hell I think the Ford Superdutys are incredible trucks. I don't think many people would ever use them to their full capacity though, unless they fall into one of the above categories. I think the 1/2 ton domestics are a bit too big for what they seem to be leaning towards right now which seems to be personal use pickups. I mean they all have very nice car like rides, all the options you could ever want etc. etc. Most people I see really still don't use them for working.

David6- When I was shopping. My Tundra Limited came in cheaper by about a grand then a Ford F150 Lariat to compare it to. As for the LSD I was extremely worried about not having this as I have always driven 2wd and always had LSD. So far, knock on wood, my Tundra is the best pickup I have ever driven in weather. Snow, Rain, ice whatever. I think it is the aggressive tires, but they grab right in and get you going no problem. Now if you are a boat ramp kinda guy, I don't know how the Tundra would do, but I would be scared of not having the LSD there. Just my 2 cents. I have heard some rumors that the 5.4 might see a slight boost in HP and Torque next year and then go to the new engine that, I think Barlitz was talking about. So you might wanna check into that too.

ferris47

Just curious. Everybody here has had good exp. bad exp. etc, etc. How many people who have had the my truck was wonderful for x1000 miles exp. are the kind of people who really take care of vehicles. To the people who seem to have had a lot of problems, Domestic, or otherwise do you honestly take care of your vehicles?

I am just curious, not setting up for a flame or anything. I am just of the mindset that todays cars and trucks should all be reasonably reliable assuming you take care of them. I have owned both domestic and forgein and have had no real problems with either but I really take care of my cars and trucks. I do have the perception that Honda and Toyota do seem to build a more consistantly quality product, probably due more to quality control then actual design but my little S10 that I had for 70 some thousand miles was bulletproof. No rattles, shakes, etc. Had a windshield wiper problem that was fixed under extended warr. in about 3 hours but big deal.

just curious to see how many people attribute quality of vehicles over a long time period to be willing to actually take care of it and not just drive it into the ground.

bigsnag

Were you comparing MSRP's? How much off MSRP did the Toyota dealer move when you bought your truck? Thanks.

ferris47

Comparing what I actually could have gotten the trucks for. The Ford dealers around Nashville are even greedier than your average Toyota dealer. I know I found it hard to believe also. I got about 1500 off of MSRP on my limited. Ford did not want to deal too much on their loaded lariat 2wds. They are in pretty high demand right now.

I am glad I ended up with the Tundra. I like it so much more then the Ford, again MHO,. As much as I agree that the 5.4 is a good engine I just didn't like it as much as Yota's 4.7 or the GM offerings. I don't really know why. Seemed like a harsh engine to me and it didn't seem to work well with the 3.73 gears. Maybe the examples I test drove were just bad examples I dunno. Know the Lightning is a whole different story. That package works well together.

My perfect truck would probably be Tundra sized, Toyota quality, GM powertrain, Tundra looks, with the guys from Fords SVT doing the hop up work. I can dream can't I. Oh yeah I want Hyundai's warrantee too.

quadrunner500

Well, my house is already finished, so putting plywood and drywall into the bed of my pickup is not a big deal.

But if you build in a rural area, you are going to make many, many trips of 25+ miles if you try to build your cabin from your compact truck.

A compact/mid-size truck may be fine for small odd jobs, where you can just hop in and drive a mile or two to the Home Depot. But in a rural area, you hitch up a loaded tandem axle trailer, and try for just one trip up the big hill.

ferris47

Ok I will agree with that one trip mentality. I hate making more then one trip to carry groceries in the house.

swobig

shouldn't say all, but most vehicles made today are very reliable, and many don't take care of them...

devil1

Check out this new website. My friend is making it and it had a LONG way to go, but it is for debating pickup trucks:

www.soar.to/trucks

bud_light_dude

You are one of the only Tundra owners I have read posts from that gives the GM powertrain the credit it deserves. GM is very well known for a very hearty and performing V8 engine. I am not stating a GM is best or better than any other make as it is subjective as to which is "best" as that is only ruled by the buyer. But, the GM V8 "IS" a proven bulletproof engine.

bud_light_dude

I take very good care of my trucks in that I don't "neglect them", i.e. oil changes and other regular maintenance. Do I abuse them....yeah, sometimes. I push my trucks to do things beyond the normal tow and payload ratings and I also don't keep my eye to the tachometer at all times like some would. In other words, there is a difference between abuse and neglect. To me, neglect will cause more failures than abuse.

I push my trucks hard, but they always have the best upkeep. "THATS" what makes the biggest difference in my book. Must work, I have never been left walking. All my trucks, even the older and higher mileage trucks that I have bought used, still never had major mechanical failures.
I plain wear out trucks long before they have failures, several over 200k miles worth of hard use.

bud_light_dude

I guess I should clarify my above post. All my "GM" trucks have never left me walking.....:)

ferris47

I think GM makes great 6 and 8 cylinder engines. There 4 cylinder have traditionally been pretty week in my opinion but engines like the 4.3 and 3.8 6s are excellent bulletproof engines and I think the new line of Vortechs are awesome. I also feel that GM designs excellent automatic transmissions. I have never had a problem with GM Trans. To all the people who have had probs. with the GM trans. I think it has more to do with quality control then design. I do think GM has some major quality control issues these days but when you do get a good one they are bulletproof.

Like I said if I were to design a vehicle I would very simply go to all the big players regardless of nationality and use what they do best. Of course my truck would cost 75,000 dollars but it wouldn't have any competition when it came to it's abilities.

Like I said I love my Tundra. I have no regrets and have had no problems, but being a "car guy" I give credit where credit is due. My best friend is very Nationalistic in thinking, and that is not all bad, but it clouds his thinking when he buys products. America does not make crap, but whenever competition is involved in a capitalistic society or world now, there is always somebody out there who will one up the other guy with a better product. One year it might be FORD, but the next it might be KIA who knows. I spend my money on what my research tells me is the best product for me. Unfortunitely I know too much for my own good, because the perfect car or truck for me has not been made because like I said, I want the salad bar car, a little bit of the good stuff from everybody.

quadrunner500

Not Kia. Daewoo is the one with the modern factories.