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Subaru's fortunes sinking - can they turn it around?
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Special editions, refreshes, and other product tweaking is the kind of thing done to maintain marketshare with a given model. It's not really an advancement of the design (though it may include clues about future models). So I don't see the need to bring any more low-volume versions of existing cars to the market. They already make enough changes to keep customers coming.
As Sweet_Subie suggested, the lack of brand new models for the US market is a more important concern. Major moves come pretty slowly. The Forester was introduced as a 1998 model. Then came the Baja in 2003 and now the Tribeca for 2006. I'm tempted to include the WRX because it had the impact of a brand new car. But the truth is it had been developed a while back and the costs would not have been the same for a brand new model in the US. I think this modest pace really highlights one of the difficulties with remaining so small.
We don't even get the H6 Spec B here, and it's MADE HERE, in the USA, and shipped out to Japan as well as several other tiny markets.
I mean, it's just absurd!
It can't even make sense of it from a financial perspective. It's the same engine in the Outback VDC and Tribeca, so it's emissions tested. Only the tranny is different, so do an EPA testing and it's a go.
-juice
Bob
Unfortunately, a different tranny = new crash test required.
DaveM
No kidding! They could give the folks in the "GM: will it survive?" thread a serious run for their money...
They're quoting an estimated 7 seconds 0-60 for the base model 2.5X? Is that a misprint, or is it for real?
Here's a little bit of fluff: "while many have called the Baja a flop, Subaru says it is more than satisfied with the sales the sedan-[non-permissible content removed]-pickup is generating". Oh yeah? Then why are they cancelling it?
Sounds like from what folks have said above that SoA really needs to assert itself - think what it could do if it had more control over the product it offers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://gm.co.in/content_data/AP/IN/en/GBPIN/001/BRANDSITE/index_forester.html
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
Which name is better known in India - Chevy or Subaru?
Perhaps somebody else owns the distribution rights to India for Subaru.
Bob
I was thinking that perhaps Fuji signed some silly distribution agreement they can't get out of and someone else owns the rights to sell Subies there.
More likely is that the market doesn't present itself as viable for Subaru to go it alone. But somehow Chile is??
http://www.subaru-global.com/worldwidenetwork/
Bob
Wrong - THIS is what is sick!
From the technical specs page for the Indian Chevrolet Forester:
Suspension
Front McPherson strut type, independent, coil spring and stabilizer bar
Rear Dual link type, independent, coil spring and stabilizer bar
Self-levelizer Standard
Please note that last line.
And WE have to go all the way up to some overpriced LL Bean version to get it!
I could just cry . . .
We would love to see that feature standard here too. We have requested it many times over the past several years.
Bob
I am beginning to get this mental image, from all the related posts in the last few days, of FHI almost INTENTIONALLY hampering its American affiliate in terms of product. Do they just want to keep Subarus quirky and limited in popularity for the American audience?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
nippononly: 0-60 in 7.0s for a Forester X is a typo. And the XT is "under 6 seconds" according to Subaru so that's gotta be a mistake.
Baja cost them little to do, it's PR spin to say it wasn't a flop, because it was, but the bean counters might have kept it around long enough to at least claim they broke even on it. Remember - it was all recycled Outback hardware.
Dave: new crash test for the 6 speed, eh? Bummer. I guess having crash tested it in the STi doesn't help the Legacy platform.
India probably NEEDS that self-leveling suspension due to the road quality, don't be too jealous, our roads are a lot nicer.
All Foresters are made in Gunma, Japan, I believe. That 2.0l powertrain is also probably made in Japan.
-juice
Things that Subaru has done that I dont like:
1) The H6. I dont like it at all. Its not very impressive in the VDC and its anemic in the Tribeca. My hope was they would bore it out to 3.5L or just ditch it and start over. The 2.5 and the 2.5t on the other hand are gems.
2) The Tribeca is like the Pacifica. It manages to capture the worst of minivan and SUV. Its slow, only tows 3500lbs, and only 15% bigger than an Outback (way too small). I'm not sure why anyone would get one over the Outback or Legacy with the 2.5t unless they like the looks. I dont think its a disaster but I dont think that it will attract new buyers to the brand.
Still, Subaru still makes the best car value on the plant right now: Legacy GT Limited wagon (and sedan, if you are into those weird things).
Edit: Not sure what they were thinking with the Baja but it would not have cost much to cut the back off an Outback. I see some around and they really dont look that bad. Not really my style but really not that bad.
Bore and stroke it, sure.
Tribeca handles better than any similar mininvan or SUV, so in that area it's better than either. Pacifica did not deliver there.
-juice
And you'll know this better than I do...are there any plans to redesign or replace the Saabaru 9-2X within, say, the next two to three years?
The Tribeca does handle better than my Sienna XLE AWD. Its on par, or a little better than, the Murano and Freestyle.
If it were 8-10" longer, 3-4" wider, and had an engine with a better power band to keep current performance, it would really impressive. Still, I'm sure some people buy it becasue its smaller. Cant please everyone.
I agree, it was a tough choice for me between Forester XT & OB XT. i went with OB XT for overall package. I think Forester XT is an awesome alternative to any sports car/sedan.
2 big issues:
1. Grossly under advertised. Even WRX owners don;t know much about Forester XT.
2. It didn't feel premium to me as OB XT did. no electro guages pseudo-auto climate etc.that's why i went with the latter. i read somewhere that OB/Leg XT/GT engine is a little better/different from that of forester XT.
But l always wanted the Forester XT for its sportiness though.
Except in the turbos, which have a different block but oddly are designated EJ257. Go figure. I guess a lot of the hard points are similar.
WRX is getting a face-lift, I doubt the 9-2x will get many changes. Rumor has it the Aero model will be dropped and they'll sell only Linears.
I haven't driven a Freestyle, but I drove a Murano and a Tribeca back-to-back. Subaru had set up an accident avoidance manuever and we drove through at 25mph, took a hard left, then a hard right, simulating the moose avoidance test that freaked out would-be Mercedes buyers a while ago.
The Murano leaned like crazy, squeeled its tires, knocked down cones. It struggled to even make it through. One driver got it up on 3 wheels, it was wild.
The Tribeca drove through uneventfully, no tire squeel. Much less lean, quicker steering. This despite having much better ground clearance, if that matters to you.
The funny thing is that they've been bragging about the boxer engine and the low center of gravity all along, but only now does it become so blatantly apparent even to a non-enthusiast. Too bad they can't let all potential shoppers conduct the same test I did.
Then again, maybe they can. They had a Ride-n-Drive for the Legacy and brought along competitors, so maybe it would be a good idea to bring a Murano along to several cities and do something similar with the Tribeca.
-juice
This was discussed over in the Tribeca Thread a while back. Subaru built the H6 with pretty tight tolerances between the cylinders. I think the walls are something like 9 or 10mm thick. 9mm is pretty much as low as you can go. If you make the cylinders any wider, the walls between them would be like tissue paper.
There are ways around this. (Official NOT promoting Honda disclaimer.) It was first done in a production engine with the 1996 CR-V. But this is not easy, and Honda owns the patents.
Subaru could stroke the EZ30 to 3.3-3.5l or so, or why stop there? Who would object to an H8, which would scale up to 4.0l nice and round?
To be honest I think given a choice I'd still opt for the 3l engine, it's more than enough for my needs. Sure it'd be fun to see an STi version with twin scroll turbos and 700hp but I think we can get the kids to school just fine with 250hp.
-juice
As far as the H6, the peak power is impressive but torque is less impressive and the overall characteristics are not all that great. Its just not acting like a 250hp motor. I mean my porky (probably 500lbs heavier than the Tribeca) AWD Sienna is being pulled around by a 3.3L V6 making making 230hp but I bet its faster or at least as fast (acceleration).
Looking at the peak HP and torque numbers:
250 hp @ 6600 rpm and 219 lb-ft @ 4200 rpm for the H6
230 hp @ 5600 rpm and 242 lb.-ft. @ 3600 rpm for the Toyota 3.3L in the Sienna.
One has more peak HP and the other has more peak torque but the Toyota engine has both lower. Quite a bit lower. A small low pressure turbo would really help out the H6 and make it more lively.
Supposedly they handle even better than the Tribeca, too bad they're so small inside.
Can't disagree that a LPT (light pressure turbo, not liquid propane torch) would make it more fun, but I really think it's not necessary in a family hauler. Even a fun-to-drive one.
My Miata has 99 lb-ft of torque at 5500rpm IIRC and it's loads of fun. I get 28mpg too.
-juice
Bob
Its pretty late to the market and did show up with some nice features but the lack of power (for a sporty SUV) and a decent 3rd row (in the 7-passenger) are going to really going to hurt.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I measured the hip point a while back and posted results on the Tribeca board. Outback is a few inches higher up than a Legacy, and the Tribeca is a few inches higher still. So the seat height difference from a Legacy to a Tribeca is rather huge. That'll be a selling point to a lot of folks that like the high vantage point.
TrailBlazer is a bit different, the 3 row model has a much longer wheelbase.
Would be interesting to see how many Highlanders are sold with the 3 row option.
-juice
Of all the Subaru-related topics on edmunds this one has held the most interest for me of late. It's interesting to read posts from people with a fresh perspective. Granted there are a few people here who are long-time Subie loyalists, as well as a few people who seem to be dead set against Subaru no matter what. In any case those new to Subarus have been making some points well worth considering, regardless of whether they think the company is in decline, on the rise or treading water.
Ed
DaveM
I think the image of the SUV is more than half of the appeal for the majority of the buyers out there. I question whether or not the Tribeca's styling will deflate some of that image, but I don't question Subaru's strategy in producing it. These are the kind of vehicles that I believe will allow Subaru to move out from the niche markets and earn the company a wider audience.
hey they already have a wider audience, look at juice :P
imagesandwords - not sure who Tribeca is for? It's for folks like me. I have 1 wife (couldn't handle more than 1!) and 1 toddler. Maybe once or twice a month we all go somewhere with friends who have smaller cars than ours, so we cram four adults and a carseat into our Outback. Very tight in the backseat. Tribeca alleviates this problem with more width and with the option of putting an adult or child in the third row on occassion. Tribeca also gives us room to grow if we have another kid or if our friends have a kid.
I think that's the way most families are today... one or two kids with the occassional extra passenger or two, so I think Tribeca's audience could really be quite large (not a reference to juice!). I think Tribeca's just the perfect size for my oh-so-common situation.
I don't want my daily driver to be a minivan or Suburban or Fordasaurus when I only need extra seating maybe a couple times a month. If I want to take a long trip with kids and friends and lots of gear once a year, I'll rent a full-size van or even a van-based motorhome.
Now the 06 Forester sounds like it has some decent improvement in the comfort area, but then the 05 A4 has sustancial improvements in all areas. While I have not priced either of these, I suspect that an unloaded (not easy to find) 05 A4 Quatro would come within 15-20% of the Forester Turbo.
I think that the Forester is a great car (afterall, I just bought one), but if comfort & luxury was my prime concern, I would not buy an 06 Forester XT until I test drove the 05 A4 2.0T. FWIW
1. styling, interior, luxury to Audi
1a. Comfort to Subaru
2. AWD/LSD to Subaru
3. Performance to Subaru (the 5.3 to 60 doesn't hurt)
4. Overall road manners to Audi
4. Practicality to Subaru (unless 4 seats are all you need)
5. Value to Subaru
6. Reliability to Subaru
7. Cost of ownership to Subaru
8. Cost of extended maintenance agreement for 5 years (cheap, cheap, cheap) to Subaru.
There's also the perception of having more room. I doubt that I could convince my wife that the B9 Tribeca only has 15% more room than my Outback.