In defence of whomever is making the decisions at corporate, I think one STi will bolster the image of the brand, but several STi products would not provide significant benefit in either sales or image. Diminishing returns and all that.
Special editions, refreshes, and other product tweaking is the kind of thing done to maintain marketshare with a given model. It's not really an advancement of the design (though it may include clues about future models). So I don't see the need to bring any more low-volume versions of existing cars to the market. They already make enough changes to keep customers coming.
As Sweet_Subie suggested, the lack of brand new models for the US market is a more important concern. Major moves come pretty slowly. The Forester was introduced as a 1998 model. Then came the Baja in 2003 and now the Tribeca for 2006. I'm tempted to include the WRX because it had the impact of a brand new car. But the truth is it had been developed a while back and the costs would not have been the same for a brand new model in the US. I think this modest pace really highlights one of the difficulties with remaining so small.
OK, an STi van is taking things a bit too far, but the Legacy could really benefit from a halo car.
We don't even get the H6 Spec B here, and it's MADE HERE, in the USA, and shipped out to Japan as well as several other tiny markets.
I mean, it's just absurd!
It can't even make sense of it from a financial perspective. It's the same engine in the Outback VDC and Tribeca, so it's emissions tested. Only the tranny is different, so do an EPA testing and it's a go.
My wife currently owns an Audi A4. What she is waiting for is "a more luxurious Forester" whatever that might be. I think she means higher level of interior quality. She loves the Forester Turbo already so she is getting closer.
I agree that the backup camera will be effective - what I believe Subaru has now for this is a backup warning sensor which you can get as an accessory. This should help. A friend of mine has told me that Echomaster is the name of the company.
It looks like current chronology won't see a change in the Legacy/Outback until 2010, which by that time it will be time to change the Foresters and Imprezas once more. I would not be surprised to see if, for 2007 MY, Subaru decides to import the R1e to the States and put it up against the Toyota Echo and Scion xA. Even with an All Wheel Drive system, they could get away with selling it for what, $16K? With All Wheel Drive, that's a sweet deal! This would appear to be Subaru's best way for grabbing a piece of a new pie.
of the '06 Forester, they mention "Subaru fans...members of a customer base rabid in their loyalty to the brand"
No kidding! They could give the folks in the "GM: will it survive?" thread a serious run for their money...
They're quoting an estimated 7 seconds 0-60 for the base model 2.5X? Is that a misprint, or is it for real?
Here's a little bit of fluff: "while many have called the Baja a flop, Subaru says it is more than satisfied with the sales the sedan-[non-permissible content removed]-pickup is generating". Oh yeah? Then why are they cancelling it?
Sounds like from what folks have said above that SoA really needs to assert itself - think what it could do if it had more control over the product it offers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Why the surprise? This is not "new" news, as the Forester has been sold in India for several years under the Chevy name. FWIW, Subaru does not sell cars in India, other than the re-badged Forester.
i am from india. i know about this, all Subaru is doing is using already existing GM network. i wonder how much sales would be affected by carrying the Chevy name. Why can't they sell under Subaru name & still use GM network.
From the technical specs page for the Indian Chevrolet Forester:
Suspension Front McPherson strut type, independent, coil spring and stabilizer bar Rear Dual link type, independent, coil spring and stabilizer bar Self-levelizer Standard
Please note that last line.
And WE have to go all the way up to some overpriced LL Bean version to get it!
Self-Leveling rear suspension is standard on many non-US market Foresters and Outbacks—and yes, that's been a bone of contention here among the Subaru Crew.
We would love to see that feature standard here too. We have requested it many times over the past several years.
the cost of American labor and parts limits what FHI can make available to SoA at any given price point. I mean, where would those Indian Foresters be built? If it is in India, where labor is pennies on the dollar to here or Japan, they can offer a lot more standard features for the same price.
I am beginning to get this mental image, from all the related posts in the last few days, of FHI almost INTENTIONALLY hampering its American affiliate in terms of product. Do they just want to keep Subarus quirky and limited in popularity for the American audience?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
rwoods: the '06 Forester has nicer fabric on the seats, sligthly softer padding too. Check out an '06 XT Limited for her, she might like it.
nippononly: 0-60 in 7.0s for a Forester X is a typo. And the XT is "under 6 seconds" according to Subaru so that's gotta be a mistake.
Baja cost them little to do, it's PR spin to say it wasn't a flop, because it was, but the bean counters might have kept it around long enough to at least claim they broke even on it. Remember - it was all recycled Outback hardware.
Dave: new crash test for the 6 speed, eh? Bummer. I guess having crash tested it in the STi doesn't help the Legacy platform.
India probably NEEDS that self-leveling suspension due to the road quality, don't be too jealous, our roads are a lot nicer.
All Foresters are made in Gunma, Japan, I believe. That 2.0l powertrain is also probably made in Japan.
rwoods: I agree with juice. The Forester XT is not a step down from the A4. I would contend its a step up. Its just as comfortable as the A4, the interior quality is just as good, and its crazy fast. Even with the auto its really blazing fast!!!!!!
Things that Subaru has done that I dont like: 1) The H6. I dont like it at all. Its not very impressive in the VDC and its anemic in the Tribeca. My hope was they would bore it out to 3.5L or just ditch it and start over. The 2.5 and the 2.5t on the other hand are gems. 2) The Tribeca is like the Pacifica. It manages to capture the worst of minivan and SUV. Its slow, only tows 3500lbs, and only 15% bigger than an Outback (way too small). I'm not sure why anyone would get one over the Outback or Legacy with the 2.5t unless they like the looks. I dont think its a disaster but I dont think that it will attract new buyers to the brand.
Still, Subaru still makes the best car value on the plant right now: Legacy GT Limited wagon (and sedan, if you are into those weird things).
Edit: Not sure what they were thinking with the Baja but it would not have cost much to cut the back off an Outback. I see some around and they really dont look that bad. Not really my style but really not that bad.
The H6 engine has been extremely reliable so far, not a single pattern of issues with that one. I can't imagine they'll ditch the EZ30. Better than the EJ25 in that regard.
Bore and stroke it, sure.
Tribeca handles better than any similar mininvan or SUV, so in that area it's better than either. Pacifica did not deliver there.
juice: The only advantage the Pacifica has over the Tribeca is that its got a useable third row. However, you an only have 2 in the second row of the Pacifica so its 5(+2) -vs- 6 passengers. The Pacifica is a decent driver but makes the Tribeca feel fast. Additionally, the driving position in the Pacifica is really low and visibiilty poor for a crossover.
The Tribeca does handle better than my Sienna XLE AWD. Its on par, or a little better than, the Murano and Freestyle.
If it were 8-10" longer, 3-4" wider, and had an engine with a better power band to keep current performance, it would really impressive. Still, I'm sure some people buy it becasue its smaller. Cant please everyone.
"rwoods: I agree with juice. The Forester XT is not a step down from the A4. I would contend its a step up. Its just as comfortable as the A4, the interior quality is just as good, and its crazy fast. Even with the auto its really blazing fast!!!!!! "
I agree, it was a tough choice for me between Forester XT & OB XT. i went with OB XT for overall package. I think Forester XT is an awesome alternative to any sports car/sedan.
2 big issues: 1. Grossly under advertised. Even WRX owners don;t know much about Forester XT.
2. It didn't feel premium to me as OB XT did. no electro guages pseudo-auto climate etc.that's why i went with the latter. i read somewhere that OB/Leg XT/GT engine is a little better/different from that of forester XT.
But l always wanted the Forester XT for its sportiness though.
Lives on, though modified it's still the same basic block.
Except in the turbos, which have a different block but oddly are designated EJ257. Go figure. I guess a lot of the hard points are similar.
WRX is getting a face-lift, I doubt the 9-2x will get many changes. Rumor has it the Aero model will be dropped and they'll sell only Linears.
I haven't driven a Freestyle, but I drove a Murano and a Tribeca back-to-back. Subaru had set up an accident avoidance manuever and we drove through at 25mph, took a hard left, then a hard right, simulating the moose avoidance test that freaked out would-be Mercedes buyers a while ago.
The Murano leaned like crazy, squeeled its tires, knocked down cones. It struggled to even make it through. One driver got it up on 3 wheels, it was wild.
The Tribeca drove through uneventfully, no tire squeel. Much less lean, quicker steering. This despite having much better ground clearance, if that matters to you.
The funny thing is that they've been bragging about the boxer engine and the low center of gravity all along, but only now does it become so blatantly apparent even to a non-enthusiast. Too bad they can't let all potential shoppers conduct the same test I did.
Then again, maybe they can. They had a Ride-n-Drive for the Legacy and brought along competitors, so maybe it would be a good idea to bring a Murano along to several cities and do something similar with the Tribeca.
This was discussed over in the Tribeca Thread a while back. Subaru built the H6 with pretty tight tolerances between the cylinders. I think the walls are something like 9 or 10mm thick. 9mm is pretty much as low as you can go. If you make the cylinders any wider, the walls between them would be like tissue paper.
There are ways around this. (Official NOT promoting Honda disclaimer.) It was first done in a production engine with the 1996 CR-V. But this is not easy, and Honda owns the patents.
juice: At the limit, I think you are correct but I was only refering to ride/feel balance and day to day handling. Which Murano did you dirve? I have only dirven the SE and I did push it pretty hard without much protest from the tries. The ride was a little more firm that I like. I guess I did not push it hard enough to test it at the limit......nor do I really want to .
I don't recall for sure. That one had 18" rims, but the tires were more narrow and not as low profile as the Tribeca's. I want to say they were 235/65, Tribeca had 255/55. And believe me you could tell.
Subaru could stroke the EZ30 to 3.3-3.5l or so, or why stop there? Who would object to an H8, which would scale up to 4.0l nice and round?
To be honest I think given a choice I'd still opt for the 3l engine, it's more than enough for my needs. Sure it'd be fun to see an STi version with twin scroll turbos and 700hp but I think we can get the kids to school just fine with 250hp. )
juice: I'm pretty sure all the Muranos come with 18" but I could be wrong. I only drove it because my brother likes its.
As far as the H6, the peak power is impressive but torque is less impressive and the overall characteristics are not all that great. Its just not acting like a 250hp motor. I mean my porky (probably 500lbs heavier than the Tribeca) AWD Sienna is being pulled around by a 3.3L V6 making making 230hp but I bet its faster or at least as fast (acceleration).
Looking at the peak HP and torque numbers: 250 hp @ 6600 rpm and 219 lb-ft @ 4200 rpm for the H6 230 hp @ 5600 rpm and 242 lb.-ft. @ 3600 rpm for the Toyota 3.3L in the Sienna.
One has more peak HP and the other has more peak torque but the Toyota engine has both lower. Quite a bit lower. A small low pressure turbo would really help out the H6 and make it more lively.
I'm thinking of the FX, perhaps. Those come with 20"s optional.
Supposedly they handle even better than the Tribeca, too bad they're so small inside.
Can't disagree that a LPT (light pressure turbo, not liquid propane torch) would make it more fun, but I really think it's not necessary in a family hauler. Even a fun-to-drive one.
My Miata has 99 lb-ft of torque at 5500rpm IIRC and it's loads of fun. I get 28mpg too.
just not in the Tribeca. It needs to be a 3.5 or larger engine, as the Tribeca is just too heavy for that engine. I suspect a power fix of some sort (turbo? larger H-6? Both?) is in the works. When we'll see is the question...
It depends on what Subaru wants to do with Tribeca. If they want to keep it as a family hauler with minivan like performance but better driving dynamics then its fine the way it is. Its IS a very nice vehicle but I'm not sure who its for. I keep going back to: only 15% more room than a Legacy wagon. Even if the Tribeca was around when we needed a larger vehicle to go with our 2k Outback Ltd, I stil would not have taken one home. It would have been somewhere below the Mazda MPV on my list, also a little too small.
Its pretty late to the market and did show up with some nice features but the lack of power (for a sporty SUV) and a decent 3rd row (in the 7-passenger) are going to really going to hurt.
the SUVs that offer both 5- and 7-passenger variants, I wonder what the mix of sales is. Do a lot of people go for those three-row vehicles where the third row won't fit anyone but kids? The Trailblazer is like that - the three-row version has the tiniest third row seat in the world.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's all most people really need. Mostly the dimension that matters is width - the Legacy is tight for 3 across so the Tribeca is much better in that regard. Plus the shape of the 40/20/40 seat makes it far more hospitable than a Legacy.
I measured the hip point a while back and posted results on the Tribeca board. Outback is a few inches higher up than a Legacy, and the Tribeca is a few inches higher still. So the seat height difference from a Legacy to a Tribeca is rather huge. That'll be a selling point to a lot of folks that like the high vantage point.
TrailBlazer is a bit different, the 3 row model has a much longer wheelbase.
Would be interesting to see how many Highlanders are sold with the 3 row option.
I used to be a lurker here, then a regular poster for several years, and have now gone back to lurking again.
Of all the Subaru-related topics on edmunds this one has held the most interest for me of late. It's interesting to read posts from people with a fresh perspective. Granted there are a few people here who are long-time Subie loyalists, as well as a few people who seem to be dead set against Subaru no matter what. In any case those new to Subarus have been making some points well worth considering, regardless of whether they think the company is in decline, on the rise or treading water.
Agreed. Most buyers of SUVs aren't really looking for a great deal of space. (They'd buy a minivan if that was their goal.) When the X5 was introduced, many reviewers noted that a 5 series wagon had more space and better performance. But look at how popular the X5 has become.
I think the image of the SUV is more than half of the appeal for the majority of the buyers out there. I question whether or not the Tribeca's styling will deflate some of that image, but I don't question Subaru's strategy in producing it. These are the kind of vehicles that I believe will allow Subaru to move out from the niche markets and earn the company a wider audience.
imagesandwords - not sure who Tribeca is for? It's for folks like me. I have 1 wife (couldn't handle more than 1!) and 1 toddler. Maybe once or twice a month we all go somewhere with friends who have smaller cars than ours, so we cram four adults and a carseat into our Outback. Very tight in the backseat. Tribeca alleviates this problem with more width and with the option of putting an adult or child in the third row on occassion. Tribeca also gives us room to grow if we have another kid or if our friends have a kid.
I think that's the way most families are today... one or two kids with the occassional extra passenger or two, so I think Tribeca's audience could really be quite large (not a reference to juice!). I think Tribeca's just the perfect size for my oh-so-common situation.
I don't want my daily driver to be a minivan or Suburban or Fordasaurus when I only need extra seating maybe a couple times a month. If I want to take a long trip with kids and friends and lots of gear once a year, I'll rent a full-size van or even a van-based motorhome.
Having owned an A4 1.8T FWD CVT for 20,000 miles and just purchased an 03 Forester XS, I can tell you that while our Forester is a very nice car, it cannot match the A4 for comfort, poise, luxury. Also we average about 28 mpg mixed driving and 34 highway with the A4. I doubt that I will be able to match that with the FXS. Forester would appear to have the upper hand on reliablity althought our the 04 A4 is doing quite well. No repairs on it, while my Forester (23,000 miles) goes in tomorrow for what appears to be a fairly common clutch problem (cold clutch judder).
Now the 06 Forester sounds like it has some decent improvement in the comfort area, but then the 05 A4 has sustancial improvements in all areas. While I have not priced either of these, I suspect that an unloaded (not easy to find) 05 A4 Quatro would come within 15-20% of the Forester Turbo.
I think that the Forester is a great car (afterall, I just bought one), but if comfort & luxury was my prime concern, I would not buy an 06 Forester XT until I test drove the 05 A4 2.0T. FWIW
I got the 2005 XT prem loaded for a little over $25K. These two vehicles are apples to bananas. However:
1. styling, interior, luxury to Audi 1a. Comfort to Subaru 2. AWD/LSD to Subaru 3. Performance to Subaru (the 5.3 to 60 doesn't hurt) 4. Overall road manners to Audi 4. Practicality to Subaru (unless 4 seats are all you need) 5. Value to Subaru 6. Reliability to Subaru 7. Cost of ownership to Subaru 8. Cost of extended maintenance agreement for 5 years (cheap, cheap, cheap) to Subaru.
Just another perspective: I need AWD where I live and that eliminates many cars (other than Subaru). So while I'd love to get a 5 series wagon, I can't justify the cost of it with AWD. Throw AWD as a option on a MINI and it's mine!
There's also the perception of having more room. I doubt that I could convince my wife that the B9 Tribeca only has 15% more room than my Outback.
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Special editions, refreshes, and other product tweaking is the kind of thing done to maintain marketshare with a given model. It's not really an advancement of the design (though it may include clues about future models). So I don't see the need to bring any more low-volume versions of existing cars to the market. They already make enough changes to keep customers coming.
As Sweet_Subie suggested, the lack of brand new models for the US market is a more important concern. Major moves come pretty slowly. The Forester was introduced as a 1998 model. Then came the Baja in 2003 and now the Tribeca for 2006. I'm tempted to include the WRX because it had the impact of a brand new car. But the truth is it had been developed a while back and the costs would not have been the same for a brand new model in the US. I think this modest pace really highlights one of the difficulties with remaining so small.
We don't even get the H6 Spec B here, and it's MADE HERE, in the USA, and shipped out to Japan as well as several other tiny markets.
I mean, it's just absurd!
It can't even make sense of it from a financial perspective. It's the same engine in the Outback VDC and Tribeca, so it's emissions tested. Only the tranny is different, so do an EPA testing and it's a go.
-juice
Bob
Unfortunately, a different tranny = new crash test required.
DaveM
No kidding! They could give the folks in the "GM: will it survive?" thread a serious run for their money...
They're quoting an estimated 7 seconds 0-60 for the base model 2.5X? Is that a misprint, or is it for real?
Here's a little bit of fluff: "while many have called the Baja a flop, Subaru says it is more than satisfied with the sales the sedan-[non-permissible content removed]-pickup is generating". Oh yeah? Then why are they cancelling it?
Sounds like from what folks have said above that SoA really needs to assert itself - think what it could do if it had more control over the product it offers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://gm.co.in/content_data/AP/IN/en/GBPIN/001/BRANDSITE/index_forester.html
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
Which name is better known in India - Chevy or Subaru?
Perhaps somebody else owns the distribution rights to India for Subaru.
Bob
I was thinking that perhaps Fuji signed some silly distribution agreement they can't get out of and someone else owns the rights to sell Subies there.
More likely is that the market doesn't present itself as viable for Subaru to go it alone. But somehow Chile is??
http://www.subaru-global.com/worldwidenetwork/
Bob
Wrong - THIS is what is sick!
From the technical specs page for the Indian Chevrolet Forester:
Suspension
Front McPherson strut type, independent, coil spring and stabilizer bar
Rear Dual link type, independent, coil spring and stabilizer bar
Self-levelizer Standard
Please note that last line.
And WE have to go all the way up to some overpriced LL Bean version to get it!
I could just cry . . .
We would love to see that feature standard here too. We have requested it many times over the past several years.
Bob
I am beginning to get this mental image, from all the related posts in the last few days, of FHI almost INTENTIONALLY hampering its American affiliate in terms of product. Do they just want to keep Subarus quirky and limited in popularity for the American audience?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
nippononly: 0-60 in 7.0s for a Forester X is a typo. And the XT is "under 6 seconds" according to Subaru so that's gotta be a mistake.
Baja cost them little to do, it's PR spin to say it wasn't a flop, because it was, but the bean counters might have kept it around long enough to at least claim they broke even on it. Remember - it was all recycled Outback hardware.
Dave: new crash test for the 6 speed, eh? Bummer. I guess having crash tested it in the STi doesn't help the Legacy platform.
India probably NEEDS that self-leveling suspension due to the road quality, don't be too jealous, our roads are a lot nicer.
All Foresters are made in Gunma, Japan, I believe. That 2.0l powertrain is also probably made in Japan.
-juice
Things that Subaru has done that I dont like:
1) The H6. I dont like it at all. Its not very impressive in the VDC and its anemic in the Tribeca. My hope was they would bore it out to 3.5L or just ditch it and start over. The 2.5 and the 2.5t on the other hand are gems.
2) The Tribeca is like the Pacifica. It manages to capture the worst of minivan and SUV. Its slow, only tows 3500lbs, and only 15% bigger than an Outback (way too small). I'm not sure why anyone would get one over the Outback or Legacy with the 2.5t unless they like the looks. I dont think its a disaster but I dont think that it will attract new buyers to the brand.
Still, Subaru still makes the best car value on the plant right now: Legacy GT Limited wagon (and sedan, if you are into those weird things).
Edit: Not sure what they were thinking with the Baja but it would not have cost much to cut the back off an Outback. I see some around and they really dont look that bad. Not really my style but really not that bad.
Bore and stroke it, sure.
Tribeca handles better than any similar mininvan or SUV, so in that area it's better than either. Pacifica did not deliver there.
-juice
And you'll know this better than I do...are there any plans to redesign or replace the Saabaru 9-2X within, say, the next two to three years?
The Tribeca does handle better than my Sienna XLE AWD. Its on par, or a little better than, the Murano and Freestyle.
If it were 8-10" longer, 3-4" wider, and had an engine with a better power band to keep current performance, it would really impressive. Still, I'm sure some people buy it becasue its smaller. Cant please everyone.
I agree, it was a tough choice for me between Forester XT & OB XT. i went with OB XT for overall package. I think Forester XT is an awesome alternative to any sports car/sedan.
2 big issues:
1. Grossly under advertised. Even WRX owners don;t know much about Forester XT.
2. It didn't feel premium to me as OB XT did. no electro guages pseudo-auto climate etc.that's why i went with the latter. i read somewhere that OB/Leg XT/GT engine is a little better/different from that of forester XT.
But l always wanted the Forester XT for its sportiness though.
Except in the turbos, which have a different block but oddly are designated EJ257. Go figure. I guess a lot of the hard points are similar.
WRX is getting a face-lift, I doubt the 9-2x will get many changes. Rumor has it the Aero model will be dropped and they'll sell only Linears.
I haven't driven a Freestyle, but I drove a Murano and a Tribeca back-to-back. Subaru had set up an accident avoidance manuever and we drove through at 25mph, took a hard left, then a hard right, simulating the moose avoidance test that freaked out would-be Mercedes buyers a while ago.
The Murano leaned like crazy, squeeled its tires, knocked down cones. It struggled to even make it through. One driver got it up on 3 wheels, it was wild.
The Tribeca drove through uneventfully, no tire squeel. Much less lean, quicker steering. This despite having much better ground clearance, if that matters to you.
The funny thing is that they've been bragging about the boxer engine and the low center of gravity all along, but only now does it become so blatantly apparent even to a non-enthusiast. Too bad they can't let all potential shoppers conduct the same test I did.
Then again, maybe they can. They had a Ride-n-Drive for the Legacy and brought along competitors, so maybe it would be a good idea to bring a Murano along to several cities and do something similar with the Tribeca.
-juice
This was discussed over in the Tribeca Thread a while back. Subaru built the H6 with pretty tight tolerances between the cylinders. I think the walls are something like 9 or 10mm thick. 9mm is pretty much as low as you can go. If you make the cylinders any wider, the walls between them would be like tissue paper.
There are ways around this. (Official NOT promoting Honda disclaimer.) It was first done in a production engine with the 1996 CR-V. But this is not easy, and Honda owns the patents.
Subaru could stroke the EZ30 to 3.3-3.5l or so, or why stop there? Who would object to an H8, which would scale up to 4.0l nice and round?
To be honest I think given a choice I'd still opt for the 3l engine, it's more than enough for my needs. Sure it'd be fun to see an STi version with twin scroll turbos and 700hp but I think we can get the kids to school just fine with 250hp.
-juice
As far as the H6, the peak power is impressive but torque is less impressive and the overall characteristics are not all that great. Its just not acting like a 250hp motor. I mean my porky (probably 500lbs heavier than the Tribeca) AWD Sienna is being pulled around by a 3.3L V6 making making 230hp but I bet its faster or at least as fast (acceleration).
Looking at the peak HP and torque numbers:
250 hp @ 6600 rpm and 219 lb-ft @ 4200 rpm for the H6
230 hp @ 5600 rpm and 242 lb.-ft. @ 3600 rpm for the Toyota 3.3L in the Sienna.
One has more peak HP and the other has more peak torque but the Toyota engine has both lower. Quite a bit lower. A small low pressure turbo would really help out the H6 and make it more lively.
Supposedly they handle even better than the Tribeca, too bad they're so small inside.
Can't disagree that a LPT (light pressure turbo, not liquid propane torch) would make it more fun, but I really think it's not necessary in a family hauler. Even a fun-to-drive one.
My Miata has 99 lb-ft of torque at 5500rpm IIRC and it's loads of fun. I get 28mpg too.
-juice
Bob
Its pretty late to the market and did show up with some nice features but the lack of power (for a sporty SUV) and a decent 3rd row (in the 7-passenger) are going to really going to hurt.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I measured the hip point a while back and posted results on the Tribeca board. Outback is a few inches higher up than a Legacy, and the Tribeca is a few inches higher still. So the seat height difference from a Legacy to a Tribeca is rather huge. That'll be a selling point to a lot of folks that like the high vantage point.
TrailBlazer is a bit different, the 3 row model has a much longer wheelbase.
Would be interesting to see how many Highlanders are sold with the 3 row option.
-juice
Of all the Subaru-related topics on edmunds this one has held the most interest for me of late. It's interesting to read posts from people with a fresh perspective. Granted there are a few people here who are long-time Subie loyalists, as well as a few people who seem to be dead set against Subaru no matter what. In any case those new to Subarus have been making some points well worth considering, regardless of whether they think the company is in decline, on the rise or treading water.
Ed
DaveM
I think the image of the SUV is more than half of the appeal for the majority of the buyers out there. I question whether or not the Tribeca's styling will deflate some of that image, but I don't question Subaru's strategy in producing it. These are the kind of vehicles that I believe will allow Subaru to move out from the niche markets and earn the company a wider audience.
hey they already have a wider audience, look at juice :P
imagesandwords - not sure who Tribeca is for? It's for folks like me. I have 1 wife (couldn't handle more than 1!) and 1 toddler. Maybe once or twice a month we all go somewhere with friends who have smaller cars than ours, so we cram four adults and a carseat into our Outback. Very tight in the backseat. Tribeca alleviates this problem with more width and with the option of putting an adult or child in the third row on occassion. Tribeca also gives us room to grow if we have another kid or if our friends have a kid.
I think that's the way most families are today... one or two kids with the occassional extra passenger or two, so I think Tribeca's audience could really be quite large (not a reference to juice!). I think Tribeca's just the perfect size for my oh-so-common situation.
I don't want my daily driver to be a minivan or Suburban or Fordasaurus when I only need extra seating maybe a couple times a month. If I want to take a long trip with kids and friends and lots of gear once a year, I'll rent a full-size van or even a van-based motorhome.
Now the 06 Forester sounds like it has some decent improvement in the comfort area, but then the 05 A4 has sustancial improvements in all areas. While I have not priced either of these, I suspect that an unloaded (not easy to find) 05 A4 Quatro would come within 15-20% of the Forester Turbo.
I think that the Forester is a great car (afterall, I just bought one), but if comfort & luxury was my prime concern, I would not buy an 06 Forester XT until I test drove the 05 A4 2.0T. FWIW
1. styling, interior, luxury to Audi
1a. Comfort to Subaru
2. AWD/LSD to Subaru
3. Performance to Subaru (the 5.3 to 60 doesn't hurt)
4. Overall road manners to Audi
4. Practicality to Subaru (unless 4 seats are all you need)
5. Value to Subaru
6. Reliability to Subaru
7. Cost of ownership to Subaru
8. Cost of extended maintenance agreement for 5 years (cheap, cheap, cheap) to Subaru.
There's also the perception of having more room. I doubt that I could convince my wife that the B9 Tribeca only has 15% more room than my Outback.