Yep, I've seen photos of the concept with only 4 seats too. I'm purely basing my guess on the fact that there is no confirmed MPV past '06 and that the Mazda5 is already out. And I'm not saying it's a direct replacement, but more of a push back to the original Gen1 version - which essentially was a crossover.
The new Sedona is a whole bunch more competitive and Hyundai will have a version called the Entourage that will even offer NAV. The Koreans are here for real and will steal even more market share from Ford and GM, some from Dodge and Honda/Toyota as well.
Let's see how the Mazda5 does, I happen to like it a lot but the US market has not embraced such small vans in the past (remember the Axxess, Vista, Expo LRV?).
The Impreza-based people mover might slot in to that niche but I suspect they'll try to make it more SUV-ish and less van-ish, i.e. no sliding doors would be my guess.
Any how, having that small van means the Tribeca-based van has to be significantly bigger.
Brian - yes, sadly that's very familiar. I believe the MPV in Japan gets AWD, trays for the 2nd row, stuff like that, right?
Argh - the news service I use (Factiva) still doesn't have yesterday's articles about the Subaru minivan.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I think the new corporate nose might look better on a minivan than it does on the Tribeca. The narrow grille doesn't work on the traditional, block-nosed look of an SUV (even cross-overs). However, the low, sloping facade of a minivan wouldn't need as much in-your-face emphasis for the grille.
From that (admitted narrow) perspective, the van could be more successful than the cross-over.
As for the size, I think Subaru should start with the parts they already have. Using the Tribeca as a basis, Subaru could build a decent 112" wheelbase vehicle. The problem is going to be width, which is something Subaru's don't offer in large quantities. But with room for 7 (adults) and the same style interior as the Tribeca, Subaru could easily add another 30-40 sales per year.
I'd love to see Subaru take the bulk of the market head-on. They just don't have the parts or platform to build a 120" wheelbase van like the Sienna, Ody, Grand Caravan, and others. This smaller van would get them a foothold, allow them to build a reputation in the segment, give them some cash, and allow them to move to a larger platform later on.
The only problem I can see is if they completely blow it. They can't hold to some of their corporate values like a safety blanket. It can have plenty of Subaru-unique features, but cannot ignore the basic van formula. They'd end up with another Baja.
Why not just offer a LWB version of the B9 Tribeca, give it a proper 3rd-row seat and plenty of legroom, and call it a B10 Tribeca? It would have a similar family relationship as the Tahoe and Suburban have.
I'd rather see it with a wheelbase of around 115" minimum.
I read the article today. It will be a replacement for the Traviq (sic?). Vanlet with 4 swinging doors. Subaru spokesperson said it would have to be global proportioned since they have few resources to design market specific products. It sounded like it might come to North America after being introduced in other markets.
Sube could go the luxury van route, and make it a 6 seater (6 captains basically). That hides the narrower body a bit, and helps with the whole niche thing.
The latest issue of Autoweek has a picture of the next Impreza, showing the corporate nose. Not a very big (or clear) picture, but it seems to look better on the WRX shown.
Traviq was an Opel clone, GM sold their van in Japan in very small numbers and Subaru sold a mild rebadge with a slightly more powerful engine. But it never even offered AWD and lacked a boxer engine.
You sure about the 4 swinging doors? AW omits that. Factiva is still useless...
Well, I think an MPV style van like the one they are describing is a good idea for the UK market and possibly the eastern Asia. Actually, i think it's a very good idea. But bringing it here would be a waste. It would likely suffer the same fate as the Colt Vista, Eagle Summit, Mitsubishi Axxess, and other micro-vans. These vehicles tried, failed, and came back in another form... compact SUVs.
Given that compact SUVs are still around, still growing, and Subaru already offers two models that are competitive with the segment, there's not much hope. Adding a 3rd row of seats doesn't change the formula quite enough. Just ask Suzuki.
It sounds like they are waiting. The design is on the table, it will be produced, but I believe the remarks in that article stated that they'd bring it to NA "eventually".
As for SWB vans, the Mazda did okay. The Quest and Sienna did okay when they were smaller. The market isn't as big as LWB vans, but it's not inconsequential. If Subaru merely matched Mazda, they'd add about 30-40K units to their yearly total. That's as much as they expect to get from the Tribeca.
I posted a couple links to those old graphics over in the Future Vehicles II forum. The red one was very similar to Tribeca, very close on the nose design and it even had the "wings" that slightly protrude from the rear quarter panel.
once the MPV goeas away, there really is no competition. The Mazda 5 is a different (microvan?) class, with a 4 cyl, and the Dodge is pretty much just a stripper/fleet unit at this point IIRC.
The Quest did OK, and the Sienna was actually the hot ticket for a while, until the '99 Ody came along, and even after thai it sold fine.
XL7 was a truck, though, low-range and body-on-frame and all. I don't think it forecasts success or failure for a unibody with AWD.
I do wonder if the US is ready for such a car, the Mazda5 seems to be a decent attempt, but I wish them luck with what will be an uphill battle.
Saw the pics, Jeff, thanks.
The red sketch had sliding or suicide doors. You can tell by the door handle position. Plus it looks smaller, even smaller than a Mazda5.
The blue one seemed bigger and had 4 swing-open doors, and a D-pillar like the Tribeca's. But the lights look just like the sketch of that WRX that turned out to be waaaaay off the final product, so I don't put much faith in it.
Again, they could do both, the red one could be the Impreza-based one we've heard about and the blue one might end up bigger and based on the Tribeca.
Whether it's BOF or not is beside the point. The Liberty is BOF. It's the extra seating in a tiny vehicle that matters. Or rather, doesn't matter. Adding a third row did not turn the BOF Grand Vitara into a hit.
People who think they may seat more than 4 or five passengers are not going to look at something the size of a Forester. Not in this market. Subaru has a tough time getting buyers who want to seat three people into a Forester. (Toyota has the same problem with the RAV4.) How are they going to sell a people-mover with 3 rows taking up interior space?
But the VItara/Grand Vitara was never very popular to begin with. CR-V and RAV4 ate its lunch.
It was basically way too narrow, making it longer didn't help because it still felt cramped. I test drove one and I could reach out and touch the passenger side glass from the driver's side.
Mazda5 threads are busy, let's see if it catches on. They got the styling right, IMO, but they are not bringing key options like NAV and power sliding doors to the US to keep costs down, and that might hurt it.
I'm with Bob on this one - a B10 or B11 Tribeca is probably ideal, because the segment is less price sensitive.
Mazda5 will come in at $18k, with the upper model still under $20k. Could Subaru meet that price? I say no. It would be hard to keep it at $24k or so, even.
The bigger Tribeca could come in at $35k and would have a better chance.
Yes, the Grand Vitara (and later XL-7) is a very flawed vehicle. Chock-full-o-flaws. A virtual flaw on wheels. We could list the flaws for days.
The point is, adding a 3rd of seats didn't help it any. So adding a 3rd row of seats to an Axxess, Colt Vista, or any other the other essentially flawed vehicle is a dubious way to make it better. So I don't see Subaru pulling it off here in the US.
from the story at the link: "All future Saabs will be true Saab designs, not hybrids such as the Subaru-derived 9-2X or the Chevrolet TrailBlazer-derived 9-7X," the European dealer said. "The model strategy will be based on crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive."
If Saab's focus is gonna be crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive, they'll be going head-to-head with Subaru. Maybe GM wants Subaru to struggle so they can purchase more of FHI at a lower price.
But this would be a mostly new vehicle, they're not really adding a 3rd row to an existing one, at least that's not what I would expect.
The XL7 was a stretch Grand Vitara. Same front end (small mistake). Same width (big mistake).
Mazda took their 3 and built the 5 off that platform. The new model is very distinctive, doesn't resemble the 3 much at all.
I think if Subaru did the same it would be similarly different from the Impreza/Forester.
Jeff: that's what the PR wags at Saab told Autoweek. Translated, it means future Saabs based on Subarus will have a lot more differentiation.
Note he points to the 9-2x and 9-7x, and not the 9-3 or 9-5. The 9-3 is based on a GM platform shared with an Opel, the G6, and the Malibu. So that's what they mean - they'll use the platform but the final product will look and feel a lot different.
Doubtful. If anything, Saab is going to lose the rest of its uniqness with the next generation. First was 9-3 (Malibu platform), then 9-2X, now 9-7X, next is 9-3 Aero V6 from Opel. I bet 9-5 will be the last...
It's just getting a refresh, not a new platform at all for the coming one.
So those might seem dated pretty quick. They already depreciate like crazy, so this won't help.
9-3 could move to a Legacy GT platform and then add all the things missing from the Subaru - telescoping wheel, HIDs, power up/down windows. Basically add all the things German car fans complain are missing from the Legacy.
9-5 could share a platform with the large sedan Subaru is supposed to be planning.
9-3 could move to a Legacy GT platform and then add all the things missing from the Subaru - telescoping wheel, HIDs, power up/down windows. Basically add all the things German car fans complain are missing from the Legacy. Wow, that would be something. I would be first at Saab dealership, buying for a sticker I can see hell freezing over before this happens, though.
My concern wasn't really with the way the Saabs will look, but with the second part of the quote: "The model strategy will be based on crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive."
The article says to me that Saab's planning on introducing 8 models in 8 years with crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive as the model strategy. That's the part that has me worried. Crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive is Subaru.
The article says to me that Saab's planning on introducing 8 models in 8 years with crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive as the model strategy. That's the part that has me worried. Crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive is Subaru.
Well remember that FHI is only 20% owned by GM so Subaru is technically a competitor to Saab. Is FHI that subservient to GM that they'd be forced into sharing platforms with a direct competitor?
They seem determined to kill one or the other. Even if Saab sells premium AWD crossovers that limits what Subaru can offer in terms of feature content, and I don't like that either.
Saab is about FWD and turbos. I guess they've had a negative image with torque steer but that's what they've always been about.
When the 9-2x came out I thought they should only have sold the turbo, in fact they could have done a 9-2x Aero (WRX) and a 9-2x Viggen (STi), and it really should have added a lot more content to truly justify the price.
The 9-7 made no sense at all but I guess dealers wanted a truck to sell.
The next 9-2x could share a WRX platform but sell turbos only, and add all the things that european cars (even the Jetta) has standard - one-touch up/down windows, telescoping wheel, full-size spare, etc.
The way it is now, 9-2x selling for less than a WRX? That's just plain stupid.
Well Saab sold a whopping 47 9-7X's in May. I realize that's only the first month of sales but me thinks the Baja may be considered a comparative runaway hit.
Do we really need 17 TrailBlazer clones for sale? They didn't even change the doors/windows. New bumpers and grille and they call that a Saab. Looks just like the Olds model that also failed.
Funny thing is I heard they actually moved the ignition key to the middle console, something they did not do for the 9-2x.
It so happens I have a 2003 XL-7 Limited and a 2005 Subaru Outback Sport. It is true the XL-7 may not be the best of everything but for what we wanted it was just right. It takes my wife, myself and two or three of our Greyhounds any place we want to go. The ride is nice. I drove the RAV-4 and it was like a tin can. The XL-7 is solid as a rock. There is also one thing the XL-7 has that none of the others in the segment has: rear A/C. With the dogs it is perfect. The third seat is a joke but it is never up and the second row slides back so there is plenty of room for four plus bags behind the second row. It has a timing chain (unlike the OBS that uses a belt) it is direct ignition, and the long wheelbase makes for a better ride than many of the smaller ones, even those with 4 wheel independent suspension.
The Outback will handle two dogs and with the AWD it is very nice. Rides well, good MPG (epa 23 for the OBS, 20 for the XL-7) and is also solid. It is not exactly a big vehicle either. I can reach the passenger door with no problem. I tried to get her into a B9 but she wants to wait till next year.
You buy what you need. The OBS is for the wife, the XL-7 is mine. We are both very happy with them and in the long run that is what matters.
That is just so weird, that GM can misconstrue Saab's history and heritage like that. Saab has had turbos (for better or worse) for many many years now. Most of its cars were FWD (also for better or worse). I think that instead of simply copying Subarus and GM's they should take the basic architecture, turbo them, and add better driving dynamics. Not a tough equation.
For a vehicle over 30K they better be using a chain and it had best be self adjusting and self lubricating. The belt is the easy way to go, also cheaper.
The problem Saab has hit just a natural limitation with FWD. Anything with more than 200hp is likely to have wicked torque steer. They hit that ceiling, IMO. It wasn't an issue when even their turbos made 150hp.
Saab has a new 2.8l turbo V6 that is rated for about 250hp. Rumor is that Saab is under-rating this engine just to avoid torque steer hysteria. I mean, the Legacy GT makes the same power from 4 cylinders and less displacement. I bet that Saab engine dynos at 280+.
I don't think Saab could proceed without AWD. Volvo did it across their lineup, I predict Saab will follow. Heritage points to FWD, but that was when everyone else had RWD, so FWD had an advantage in snow.
I've got two greyhounds (rescued via Greyhound Friends in MA). Currently, I'm carting them around using a CR-V with the seats folded flat.
However, my wife and I have a baby on the way and the CR-V probably won't accommodate both hounds, a baby seat in the back, and the cargo which comes with a baby. So, I'm looking at slightly larger alternatives. So, here's my question.
Can you get two hounds in the back of your OB without folding the back seats? I know they will fit back there if you fold them up, but I'd like to give them enough room that they don't step on one-another.
He's got the small Outback Sport, which is Impreza-based. I think what you would want is the larger Legacy-based Outback, which is what most people think of when they hear the word "Outback."
Actually the Tribeca would even be better as it's: (A) taller in the cargo area (good for tall dogs), (B) with the sliding 2nd-row seat you can increase the cargo load area and (C) you can make that 2nd-row seat "church-pew-like" bolt upright if need be, as the seat backrest adjusts too. I would recommend getting the optional rear bumper step pad so that you don't scratch the bumper finish. There's also an optional dog/cargo guard for the cargo area.
Those features is available on both 5-passenger and 7-passenger models. Now if you can just get past the nose... it's really the best Subie for your dog/passenger needs.
Comments
Again, all speculation on my part. :shades:
-Brian
Let's see how the Mazda5 does, I happen to like it a lot but the US market has not embraced such small vans in the past (remember the Axxess, Vista, Expo LRV?).
The Impreza-based people mover might slot in to that niche but I suspect they'll try to make it more SUV-ish and less van-ish, i.e. no sliding doors would be my guess.
Any how, having that small van means the Tribeca-based van has to be significantly bigger.
Brian - yes, sadly that's very familiar. I believe the MPV in Japan gets AWD, trays for the 2nd row, stuff like that, right?
Argh - the news service I use (Factiva) still doesn't have yesterday's articles about the Subaru minivan.
-juice
From that (admitted narrow) perspective, the van could be more successful than the cross-over.
As for the size, I think Subaru should start with the parts they already have. Using the Tribeca as a basis, Subaru could build a decent 112" wheelbase vehicle. The problem is going to be width, which is something Subaru's don't offer in large quantities. But with room for 7 (adults) and the same style interior as the Tribeca, Subaru could easily add another 30-40 sales per year.
I'd love to see Subaru take the bulk of the market head-on. They just don't have the parts or platform to build a 120" wheelbase van like the Sienna, Ody, Grand Caravan, and others. This smaller van would get them a foothold, allow them to build a reputation in the segment, give them some cash, and allow them to move to a larger platform later on.
The only problem I can see is if they completely blow it. They can't hold to some of their corporate values like a safety blanket. It can have plenty of Subaru-unique features, but cannot ignore the basic van formula. They'd end up with another Baja.
I'd rather see it with a wheelbase of around 115" minimum.
Bob
Since they're using trendy city names.
-juice
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Factiva still not updated. :-(
-juice
I read the article today. It will be a replacement for the Traviq (sic?). Vanlet with 4 swinging doors. Subaru spokesperson said it would have to be global proportioned since they have few resources to design market specific products. It sounded like it might come to North America after being introduced in other markets.
The latest issue of Autoweek has a picture of the next Impreza, showing the corporate nose. Not a very big (or clear) picture, but it seems to look better on the WRX shown.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The word "global" is used, suggesting a smaller minivan, and not Odyssey-sized.
Also...
Meanwhile, Mori says the company plans to freshen the Legacy in 2007 and redesign it in 2009. The Legacy is Subaru's best seller in the United States.
Bob
You sure about the 4 swinging doors? AW omits that. Factiva is still useless...
-juice
The forum where I read it showed an illustration with 4 swinging doors.
The only SWB minivan now is the Caravan, and I bet 3/4 of the sales are to fleets. The Grand Caravan is the number one sellling Chrysler minivan. LWB.
Now, a B10 Tribeca, with a third row seat real people can sit in? yeah, sure, that sounds like a good idea.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There was a graphic that came out long ago that pretty much revealed the shape of the Tribeca, we didn't even realize how accurate it was.
That same graphic has a smaller people mover that is supposed to be based on the Impreza. I wonder if we'll see that and a Tribeca Plus?
-juice
Given that compact SUVs are still around, still growing, and Subaru already offers two models that are competitive with the segment, there's not much hope. Adding a 3rd row of seats doesn't change the formula quite enough. Just ask Suzuki.
As for SWB vans, the Mazda did okay. The Quest and Sienna did okay when they were smaller. The market isn't as big as LWB vans, but it's not inconsequential. If Subaru merely matched Mazda, they'd add about 30-40K units to their yearly total. That's as much as they expect to get from the Tribeca.
The Quest did OK, and the Sienna was actually the hot ticket for a while, until the '99 Ody came along, and even after thai it sold fine.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I do wonder if the US is ready for such a car, the Mazda5 seems to be a decent attempt, but I wish them luck with what will be an uphill battle.
Saw the pics, Jeff, thanks.
The red sketch had sliding or suicide doors. You can tell by the door handle position. Plus it looks smaller, even smaller than a Mazda5.
The blue one seemed bigger and had 4 swing-open doors, and a D-pillar like the Tribeca's. But the lights look just like the sketch of that WRX that turned out to be waaaaay off the final product, so I don't put much faith in it.
Again, they could do both, the red one could be the Impreza-based one we've heard about and the blue one might end up bigger and based on the Tribeca.
-juice
This would also help set it apart from other minivans.
Bob
We're just a self-centered bunch.
-juice
People who think they may seat more than 4 or five passengers are not going to look at something the size of a Forester. Not in this market. Subaru has a tough time getting buyers who want to seat three people into a Forester. (Toyota has the same problem with the RAV4.) How are they going to sell a people-mover with 3 rows taking up interior space?
It was basically way too narrow, making it longer didn't help because it still felt cramped. I test drove one and I could reach out and touch the passenger side glass from the driver's side.
Mazda5 threads are busy, let's see if it catches on. They got the styling right, IMO, but they are not bringing key options like NAV and power sliding doors to the US to keep costs down, and that might hurt it.
I'm with Bob on this one - a B10 or B11 Tribeca is probably ideal, because the segment is less price sensitive.
Mazda5 will come in at $18k, with the upper model still under $20k. Could Subaru meet that price? I say no. It would be hard to keep it at $24k or so, even.
The bigger Tribeca could come in at $35k and would have a better chance.
-juice
The point is, adding a 3rd of seats didn't help it any. So adding a 3rd row of seats to an Axxess, Colt Vista, or any other the other essentially flawed vehicle is a dubious way to make it better. So I don't see Subaru pulling it off here in the US.
from the story at the link: "All future Saabs will be true Saab designs, not hybrids such as the Subaru-derived 9-2X or the Chevrolet TrailBlazer-derived 9-7X," the European dealer said. "The model strategy will be based on crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive."
If Saab's focus is gonna be crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive, they'll be going head-to-head with Subaru. Maybe GM wants Subaru to struggle so they can purchase more of FHI at a lower price.
The XL7 was a stretch Grand Vitara. Same front end (small mistake). Same width (big mistake).
Mazda took their 3 and built the 5 off that platform. The new model is very distinctive, doesn't resemble the 3 much at all.
I think if Subaru did the same it would be similarly different from the Impreza/Forester.
Jeff: that's what the PR wags at Saab told Autoweek. Translated, it means future Saabs based on Subarus will have a lot more differentiation.
Note he points to the 9-2x and 9-7x, and not the 9-3 or 9-5. The 9-3 is based on a GM platform shared with an Opel, the G6, and the Malibu. So that's what they mean - they'll use the platform but the final product will look and feel a lot different.
-juice
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So those might seem dated pretty quick. They already depreciate like crazy, so this won't help.
9-3 could move to a Legacy GT platform and then add all the things missing from the Subaru - telescoping wheel, HIDs, power up/down windows. Basically add all the things German car fans complain are missing from the Legacy.
9-5 could share a platform with the large sedan Subaru is supposed to be planning.
-juice
Wow, that would be something. I would be first at Saab dealership, buying for a sticker
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"The model strategy will be based on crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive."
The article says to me that Saab's planning on introducing 8 models in 8 years with crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive as the model strategy. That's the part that has me worried. Crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive is Subaru.
Well remember that FHI is only 20% owned by GM so Subaru is technically a competitor to Saab. Is FHI that subservient to GM that they'd be forced into sharing platforms with a direct competitor?
They seem determined to kill one or the other. Even if Saab sells premium AWD crossovers that limits what Subaru can offer in terms of feature content, and I don't like that either.
Saab is about FWD and turbos. I guess they've had a negative image with torque steer but that's what they've always been about.
When the 9-2x came out I thought they should only have sold the turbo, in fact they could have done a 9-2x Aero (WRX) and a 9-2x Viggen (STi), and it really should have added a lot more content to truly justify the price.
The 9-7 made no sense at all but I guess dealers wanted a truck to sell.
The next 9-2x could share a WRX platform but sell turbos only, and add all the things that european cars (even the Jetta) has standard - one-touch up/down windows, telescoping wheel, full-size spare, etc.
The way it is now, 9-2x selling for less than a WRX? That's just plain stupid.
-juice
Funny thing is I heard they actually moved the ignition key to the middle console, something they did not do for the 9-2x.
-juice
Yes they did.
Actually the Bravada was a pretty good seller for Olds.
The Outback will handle two dogs and with the AWD it is very nice. Rides well, good MPG (epa 23 for the OBS, 20 for the XL-7) and is also solid. It is not exactly a big vehicle either. I can reach the passenger door with no problem. I tried to get her into a B9 but she wants to wait till next year.
You buy what you need. The OBS is for the wife, the XL-7 is mine. We are both very happy with them and in the long run that is what matters.
I think Subies went to direct ignition a while ago, the spark plug wires are long gone.
-juice
My 01 XL-7 had direct ignition also.
Saab has a new 2.8l turbo V6 that is rated for about 250hp. Rumor is that Saab is under-rating this engine just to avoid torque steer hysteria. I mean, the Legacy GT makes the same power from 4 cylinders and less displacement. I bet that Saab engine dynos at 280+.
I don't think Saab could proceed without AWD. Volvo did it across their lineup, I predict Saab will follow. Heritage points to FWD, but that was when everyone else had RWD, so FWD had an advantage in snow.
-juice
I've got two greyhounds (rescued via Greyhound Friends in MA). Currently, I'm carting them around using a CR-V with the seats folded flat.
However, my wife and I have a baby on the way and the CR-V probably won't accommodate both hounds, a baby seat in the back, and the cargo which comes with a baby. So, I'm looking at slightly larger alternatives. So, here's my question.
Can you get two hounds in the back of your OB without folding the back seats? I know they will fit back there if you fold them up, but I'd like to give them enough room that they don't step on one-another.
Sorry about the OT post!
Bob
Those features is available on both 5-passenger and 7-passenger models. Now if you can just get past the nose...
Bob
BTW, how's Mrs. Varmint feeling?