Subaru's fortunes sinking - can they turn it around?

rsholland

There's also the perception of having more room. I doubt that I could convince my wife that the B9 Tribeca only has 15% more room than my Outback.

Go to a dealer and sit in both the Outback and B9, back-to-back, you and your wife will see the difference immediately. The B9 feels much roomier than the Outback, especially in second row seating legroom. The B9 has a sliding 2nd-row seating (7" or so), in both the 5 and 7 passenger versions, so you can adjust your cargo-to-passenger space relationship as needed. That's a very nice feature to have. On the 7-passenger version the sliding feature has a safety 2-position slide so that you don't accidentally crush 3rd-row passengers legs.

Bob

ateixeira

5er wagon is a whole lot better than the X5 in every practical way, especially in the way it drives. I drove them back to back in the Susan G. Kolhman fund raiser. Gimme the 5 wagon any day. It's a lot roomier.

My wife wants a bigger vehicle plus likes the image of an SUV. I'd prefer a Legacy GT wagon but she won't go for another Legacy wagon, been there done that perhaps. She'd like a sedan but admits we need more space, so Tribeca could fit the bill.

Before anyone says she would have bought another Subaru anyway - not really. She was leaning towards an Avalon and would likely have left the brand.

Even with RL Polk's top loyalty cars keeping 40% or so of buyers, 60% buy something else. Subaru could likely thrive by merely keeping a bunch of Outback buyers that might otherwise have left for another brand.

swampy: wider is better? Does size matter? Nah, I'm down one pant size lately, actually.

A4 compares more closely in price to a Legacy GT, to be honest. And an Audi without Quattro is like non-alcoholic beer. Not too bad, but why would you drink it?

The Forester XT is probably still cheaper than even the A3 2.0FSI Quattro. I'm sure it is, actually. A3 is nice inside but it is *TINY*, almost a 2+2 with no luggage space.

-juice

imagesandwords

Yes it does have a little more width but its not enough. My guess that there is about 3-4" more room over the Legacy but its still a little cramped relative to the Pilot, which probably 8" wider than the Outback. Its the width the Tribeca should have been. I also have a toddler and when his seat is in middle of the second row of the Outback its basically a 3 passenger. Its really cramped to put any adults back there for more than a 5 minute trip. When he as in an infant seat it was not as bad but now in the front facing toddler seat there is not enough room for my dog back there. You can put 2 adults and a car seat in the Tribeca but its not all that comfortable. A few inches (about 3 more) would have helped a ton. I think thats how Honda planned the width of the Pilot.

You cannot put adults in the 3rd row of the Tribeca with the second row all the way back even for short trips unless they like kissing their knees. In that position its cramped for anyone over 50lbs, who should still be in a car seat anyway. If you want want to put adults back there you have to move the seat all the way up. Then the second row is only for short trips. The Tribeca should have been 8" longer to solve this problem.

So 3-4" wider and 8" longer would have made it a 7 passenger and big enought to make the step up from the Outback/Legacy a nice step up in useable space.

ateixeira

Pilot is rather large and heavy, though. Besides, the Highlander was outselling it last time I checked. And in the luxury arena the smallish RX330 is by far the best seller.

Bigger is not always better. The Tahoe outsells the Suburban, too.

How often, honestly, do you cart around 6-7 adults? For most people I'd venture to guess "never".

I bet it's usually 2, sometimes 4 adults, if that. Mostly kids sit in the back. Adults have their own schedules and have their own cars.

Far more typical is a family like mine, 2 kids, a dog, with the nanny coming along occasionally. The 3rd row would to give a kids' friend a ride home in a pinch.

An Aviator owner I know removed the 3rd row completely after never using it once. Another one with a Highlander also hasn't used it yet. I honestly think people over estimate how many seats they might need, and trying to meet the worst-case scenario means you're stuck driving something a bit more cumbersome than it needs to be.

-juice

dino001

Mother-in-law comes once a year so 7-passenger vehicle is a must...

varmint

I don't think Honda benchmarked a particular width when they designed the Pilot (or the MDX which came before it). The platform simply was wide to begin with. Those two are built on the same lines as the Odyssey, after all.

Having said that, I agree the extra width is a big factor in the perception of space within the interior. I just don't think Subaru could do the same. As Juice mentioned, adding extra girth would add weight. And while there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that compromise, Subaru doesn't yet have an engine designed for that kind of load. They have to build within the boundaries of their production facilities and parts bin. From that perspective, I think they did a pretty good job with the Tribeca.

imagesandwords

All I'm saying is that Tribeca does not have much more useable space than an Outback. I wish it was bigger and more minivan like. They could have just made a Grand Outback or Forrester by making it a couple of inches wider and a couple of inches longer and either one would have had more space than the Tribeca. They would probably have been lighter too. As it stand you have to like to looks to by the Tribeca because it cant be all the extra space you get.

rsholland

They have to build within the boundaries of their production facilities and parts bin. From that perspective, I think they did a pretty good job with the Tribeca.

I think that sums it up nicely.

I know a more powerful engine is in the works, or at least there have been just too many rumors to ignore.

Bob

imagesandwords

As a sporty SUV the 5-passenger would be sweet. Not for me but it would be cool.

Needs lots more power though. Lots. I would say a 300hp and about as much torque. I dont think they can do that from a displacement increase, if its even possible. They could do it easily with a turbo but I worry about the price. Thats going to add at least 3-4k for the actual plumbing and extra engine/drivetrain fortification. However, if you are in to that kind of thing it would still be a bargain.

juice:
Tahoe outsells the Suburban: True but the Tahoe is pretty big and has lots of space already. I can put out child seat in the center and still have room for a 100lb dog in the second row.
Highlander -vs- Pilot. Its tough to win over the Toyota faithful. Friends of mine would not even look at the Pilot. They only buy Toyotas. Now they are unhappy with their Highlander because the second row is cramped with a child seat in the center. Its getting traded for a minivan (a Toyota minivan) to solve the problem.

nippononly

we will see both the RAV and the Highlander grow with their model revisions, growing substantially in the HL's case. I am sure that is to go head to head with the Pilot, but the point is that after that Tribeca will be left in "tweenersville" (where HL has already been for some time - smaller than the true midsizers, and bigger than the "cute utes"). With a 108" wheelbase, they should be able to make Tribeca wider to more properly address the market they are aiming it at.

kyfdx

...that the Tribeca will sell, regardless of any shortcomings..

SUVs are extremely popular, crossovers even more so... It is the look and the seating position.. The Outback never looked like an SUV, or felt like one from the driver's seat... You can take that as a positive or negative, but Sube finally has something that looks/feels like a real SUV..

I expect it to easily sell more than their forecasts... regardless of quality/features/desirability.. in comparison to other makes..

regards,
kyfdx

rsholland

I suspect that in the next 18 months we will see some Tribeca upgrades as well. I'm betting that engine upgrades will be at the top of the list. My guess is that Subaru will try to make the Tribeca standout from a performance standpoint, as they have been doing with their cars.

Already the Tibeca handles with the best of this crossover group. It just needs some serious muscle under the hood to really make a statement.

Bob

ateixeira

You're not gonna make the mother-in-law crawl into the 3rd row now, are you? LOL

Put the kids back there, you'll probably have, what, 4 adults and a couple of kids?

Tribeca is a lot more than 2" wider than the Forester. Half a foot wider, at least, if not more than that.

Outback is closer but I still think Tribeca feels a lot roomier. There is a lot more storage space, too, and the interior is more flexible. Outback is a small mid-sizer, almost a compact, while the Tribeca is a sorta big mid-sizer, but not full-size by any means.

Highlander (and RX) are best sellers, we should not be surprised that Subaru followed that size formula. If it gets substantially bigger, and the RAV4 grows in size, I bet more than a few Highlander buyers move down to a RAV4.

-juice

ateixeira

Yowsah! You're getting those kids to soccer practice early every time!

How much is this proposed SUV gonna cost? 4" wider, 8" longer, 300hp, minivan-sized interior, I'd say about $50 grand.

Seriously.

-juice

kyfdx

You are basically describing a VW Touareg V8..

ateixeira

Not really, Touareg is very, very small inside. Cramped even for 4 (esp rear legroom), with little cargo space and a big hump for the 5th pass.

Tribeca is already a whole lot roomier.

-juice

rsholland

Did you sit in the same Touareg I sat in? I didn't find it cramped at all, but plenty roomy.

Bob

nippononly

the Touareg I sat in was only just spacious enough in back. I would not have referred to it as "roomy", that is for sure. If that is the size of Tribeca, then I am with the crowd that suggest it grow a little. And bring on the turbos! :-P

rsholland

Not sure how it compares with the Tribeca, but I would not call it "very, very small," which is how juice described it. It's been a while since I've been in one, but I never felt cramped in any way whatsoever. That I would certainly have remembered.

I do recall the cargo area being just so-so in terms of space, but not the seating.

Bob

imagesandwords

300hp and its current size I would it would be selling $38-42k fully loaded. A nice alternative to the Highlander hybrid or the V6 SRX. It would kill the Pacifica, it already does.

300+hp and 4" wider and 8" longer I would say closer to $45-50k similar to the V8 SRX. The SRX would have a better/smoother engine and closer to 320hp but the Subaru would look a little better. I looked at the SRX (V6) seriously before I got my AWD Sienna. However, at the time is was way more expensive than it is now. Actually, I think the V8 SRX sells for well over $50k loaded so around that range.

varmint

Size does matter. It's not the only thing that matters, but it's important with the family hauling crowd.

The Escape, CR-V, and several other best-sellers in the small SUV category are all larger than the RAV4, Forester, and Grand Vitara, which have seen the lowest sales volumes.

Same with minivans. Grand Caravans (long wheelbase) outsell the regular Caravans. The Ody, new Sienna, new Quest, and other long wheelbase vans outsell the old Sienna, old Quest, MPV, and other short bodies.

Same with mid-size SUVs. Those that went to 3 rows and big interiors have been selling better than the two-row, smaller trucks. The example of the Highlander vs Pilot is an exception, but not the least bit surprising when you look at the details. The HL comes in I4 and V6 configurations. The HL price ranges from $24K to $40K. Meanwhile the Pilot is one size fits all with only two trim levels. If you eliminated the non-comparable offerings from the Toyota sales tally, they'd be much closer.

There will always be exceptions, but this market does put size pretty high on the list of priorities.

Getting back on track... For that reason, I was of the opinion that Subaru needs to bulk up their offerings. I thought it would help the Legacy/Outback. (Thanks to this discussion, I now understand that it really is a world car and cannot simply grow to meet American tastes.) But if Subaru did have the resources to design their mid-size cars for North America, enlarging their vehicle platforms would be among my top suggestions.

imagesandwords

Yea, kinda like that but more like an Land Rover LR3 HSE but more reliable.

rsholland

Yes, that term describes not only Legacys/Outbacks, but also Imprezas and Foresters, as they are all sold in Europe, Australia, Africa and Asia as well. Which leads me to wonder if the Tribeca is also a world car? Yes, it's primary market is North America, but it will be sold in those other markets too.

So with that in mind, perhaps all Subarus are somewhat compromised by having to be sold in a variety of markets. Could be, but until Subaru is able to offer models specific (in size, etc.) to each market, I think it is something we will all have to live with.

Bob

imagesandwords

I'm not up on this stuff like I used to be but the Tribeca was supposed to be based on one of GMs platforms (same Envoy/Trailblazer I think) but to get the H6 to fit would have been expensive or impossible or something like that. It was cheaper to stretch the current Outback/Legacy platform. If so I'm not sure why they did not stretch it more. Perhaps it would have been too expensive of comprimized its fine handling.

I think a Grand Outback would have been cooler.

rsholland

Nope, it has absolutely nothing to do with any existing GM platform. It's 100% a Subaru. Reportedly it is on an enlarged Outback platform.

Bob

mayberryguy

Tribeca will go global with right hand drive for '07.

kdshapiro

That's correct. And if you are looking for luxury the XT does not have it. But if you're looking for a decent vehicle, with decent reliability and performance without the bells and whistles the XT has it.

That's what makes it a compelling vehicle.

ateixeira

Bob - no, not the exact same one. )

My friend has a Touareg, they drove it over and I sat inside. The driver's area is very nice, it looks like a million bucks. But move to the back seat and foot and leg room is tight. My knees where hitting the back of the front seat.

If you move the Tribeca's middle row all the way back, the full 8" back, you end up with a lot more room. Compared to that, the Touareg's back seat is a lot tighter.

VW's sales are in the toilet so I wouldn't copy them in any way, shape, or form.

SRX has to be discounted heavily, and residual values are poor. It's not as successful as the CTS has been.

I agree that size matters, but you can also get too big, too heavy, too cumbersome. There is a "right" size for each segment, and for near-lux SUVs the RX330 seems to have nailed it.

Tribeca isn't big enough for some, but just keep in mind they're not aiming for 120k annual sales, just 35k or so. Tribeca could walk on water and it would not match the sales of the big brands.

-juice

rsholland

Juice, I'm not saying that the Touareg is as roomy as the Tribeca. I'm just saying that I didn't find it cramped.

Bob

rwoods

To me the Tribeca is a home run by Subaru. It reminds me of the Toyota Sienna (which I love) that has gone to the gym and got six pack abs. If all the car mag reviewers can find to complain about is the nose then that tells me it will be successful. I think the nose will grow on us.

Bob

nippononly

let's hope the nose doesn't grow at all! :-P

kyfdx

Like Pinocchio?

ateixeira

OK, maybe that's being a bit harsh, but it's not any usefully bigger than a Forester. Maybe wider, but that's about it.

The same family has a Passat and it's roomier than their Touareg, it's not even close.

I guess I just found that aspect disappointing.

Bob - show that STi photochop. With the right grille insert, the Tribeca's face can look a lot better. I'm not a fan of chrome at all, and the horizontal chrome strips on the "fuselage" and surrounding wings are the worst styling features on the vehicle IMHO.

-juice

rsholland

Keep in mind that this is a "transitional" model, that introduces the new corporate face on to an existing model. An all-new Impreza will go on sale in two years, and is reportedly very European in look, which most likely means a hatchback (at least that's been strongly rumored).

Usually I'm against grafting a new look on to an old platform, but I think Subaru did a pretty good job here. I can't wait to see the all-new '08 model when this new look will have been fully integrated with the rest of the car.

rsholland, "Subaru Crew - Future Models II" #16795, 16 Jun 2005 9:26 am

I think you can expect this same transitional face to appear on '07 Legacys and Outbacks, but with perhaps a chrome central grille surround to make it appear more upscale.

Bob

rsholland

but it's not any usefully bigger than a Forester. Maybe wider, but that's about it.

I don't agree with that either. Sorry.

Bob

ateixeira

But I wish they'd gone with a bolder look. It's a pretty conservative interpretation of the new face. Look at the B11S, the B9SC, the B9 Tribeca, and this is a little tame.

-juice

varmint

"So with that in mind, perhaps all Subarus are somewhat compromised by having to be sold in a variety of markets."

Can't agree with that. I mean, many of those competitors for the Forester are also sold all over the world, even though they are considerably larger. If we are going to use the "world car" moniker as an excuse for Subaru not making changes, then the same could be said of just about every car manufacturer in the US.

rsholland

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that Subarus are the size they is because those sizes probably best fit a wide variety of markets. It's more economical for them to find a "one-size-fits-all" rather than to tailor different sizes to different markets.

Bob

varmint

"There is a "right" size for each segment, and for near-lux SUVs the RX330 seems to have nailed it."

Yes, I think you're right about that. Though I would add that the "right size" changes from year to year... the whole moving target thing again. And from where I'm sitting, the target always seems to go up.

For example, the RX300 (original) was a decent size for the market when it hit the streets. Over the course of 5-6 years, the target shifted, and the new model grew a bit to match that.

Somewhere in the links above (maybe the pep talk transcript), a Subaru exec. described the Tribeca as "the Outback for the next generation" or something like that. I think he makes a valid comparison. One of the reasons why is the fact that the Tribeca is larger.

On the side issue of the Toureg... it is much bigger than a Forester, I would not consider it "cramped", and, while the legroom in the second row may not be more than the Tribeca, I didn't find the Tribeca perceptibly larger in terms of overall space.

varmint

I guess I just don't see how that differs from anybody else. The Corrola, Mazda3, Civic, CR-V, Escape/Maverick, and plenty of other cars are sold one-size-fits-all.

rsholland

True, but then there's the Euro Accord and our Accord, which as you know are different in size.

Bob

varmint

But those cars are more like the exception than the rule.

I agree that making the Outback/Legacy larger would be a problem because 1.) sales around the world are greater than sales here in the US, and 2.) the world's opinion of mid-size cars is different than ours.

Having said that, small cars are pretty much universal. Off the top of my head I can't name a single company that offers two different models within the small car (or small SUV) class as a result of market differences. So I do not see how "world concerns" would impact Subaru more than any other company when it comes to vehicles like the Impreza and Forester.

nippononly

because it's smaller - hence it s much more important to make one best-compromise size, as there aren't enough resources to make any other sizes? There are even smaller vehicles sold all over the world that are invisible to us here in the U.S. because they are too small to sell here. You could make everything on the small side to bridge the gap between the smallest U.S. size and the next smaller size in the rest of the world, and save yourself some money probably.

Now why this argument applies to Subaru, I don't know. It already has two different models in sizes smaller than U.S.-ready. I kinda thought the new Legacy would be significantly bigger than it turned out to be last year with the revision. They could afford to make this car based on the new Tribeca platform with the longer wheelbase, and still easily sell it the world over I am sure.

lark6

"Having said that, small cars are pretty much universal. Off the top of my head I can't name a single company that offers two different models within the small car (or small SUV) class as a result of market differences."

Besides the aforementioned Accords, would Honda's CR-V and HR-V fall into that category?

rwoods

My prediction: When I first heard the Beatles' Sergeant Pepper album in 1967 I was horrified. What a disaster I thought. The Beatles had lost their minds. A few months later it had won me over. And I've loved that album ever since.

It will be the same with the Tribeca's nose. The European flair will come to be seen as stylish and attractive by us hard core Subies. We are not early adopters. We are "laggers".

Bob W.

kyfdx

They said the same thing about Barbra Streisand..

She still reminds me of Jimmy Durante...

varmint

I think the problem is simply one of scale. A 10% increase in size to meet the demands of the US market is significant when the car is the size of a Camry. 10% is not a significant difference when we talk about something like the Corolla. As the car gets smaller, the differences get smaller (and not worth the bother). It's much easier to peg the middle-ground when the difference is only 2 cu. ft.

For my part, I think the reason why the Forester has not grown with the rest of the class is the Outback. In terms of interior space, there's not much perceptible difference between an Outback and many of the small SUVs (VUE, Equinox, Escape, CR-V, etc.) If the Forester got any bigger, it would likely hurt sales of its not-much-bigger brother. Same goes for the RAV4, since the Highlander is kinda small.

That's a good enough reason, but that has nothing to do with being world cars.

varmint

No, it's not the same. The HR-V to CR-V comparison is more like comparing a Civic with the Fit/City. They are, in fact, two different classes of vehicles. Besides, the HR-V is not offered as an alternative to the larger CR-V. Wherever the HR-V is sold, the CR-V is sold with it.

rsholland

Even though Honda sells the Civic and CRV worldwide, they have other market-specific vehicles to cover the niches those cars don't; vehicles like the HRV, Fit, City, Jazz, etc. Subaru doesn't have that luxury. Yes, they have the Justy, which is sold in several European countries, but even I (diehard Subie fan that I am) don't like that car, as it's not much more than an AWD badge-engineered Suzuki Swift.

Subaru does offer the R1 and R2 in Japan, and it looks like the R1 will be exported to Europe; but that's a tiny car with a 660cc engine. It makes the Mini Cooper look like a limo.

Bob

lark6

Besides, the HR-V is not offered as an alternative to the larger CR-V. Wherever the HR-V is sold, the CR-V is sold with it.

But not necessarily vice versa. Hence Bob's observation re the Subaru R1/R2 cars.