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Comments
Enlightening comments.
First, please understand that Bose DID NOT design or build the "headunit" in your car. The "headunit" means the radio/disc unit. Nissan source it from another supplier. If there are features you miss from your old I30, the best thing you can do is write to Infinity (perhaps addressing the chief product planner for the M35/45), and ask for those features to be brought back.
Centerpoint: Centerpoint is one approach to making 2-channel material more spacious and surround-like. I'm sorry that you don't like it's effect on CD's, but any artistic interpretation, is not going to appeal to everyone. If you don't like it, don't use it. The point about centerpoint not remembering it's on/off state per source type (CD, DVD-V) is again something you can petition Infinity about.
I assure you that this specific issue is something we worry about too, but the audio system is a collaboration between Bose, Nissan, and the headunit supplier, and everyone has to compromise to make an affordable, manufacturable product that meets the vehicle design schedule...
In short, every one of your complaints (save the fact that you don't like Centerpoint) is a legitimate issue, and you should bring them up with Infinity.
I am not in a position to say whether or not Infinity will make their headunit supplier address your issues, but the next time around maybe Nissan will take note of your points.
And as long as I'm writing, I hope you like the sound of your system on CD's (no centerpoint), and especially with well recorded 5.1 material.
Cheers,
B
Sorry about the feature set. This is an issue with the headunit supplier, not Bose.
I can see where the MB feature might be handy to have. But, please remember that features cost money. Nissan had to balance cost of the M45 headunit against providing the features that will make most of its customers happy. It could be prohibitively expensive to provide every feature every customer could possibly want. It would also be folly to take away all the useful features. The car maker tries to find the right balance between features, cost, and the complexity of the user interface. Maybe this time Nissan's choice was not optimal for you, but it might be appreciated by that middle aged executive that only wants to tweek the bass control one time to get some bass boost for all source types ...
You can't make everyone happy all of the time...
It is our/Bose goal to design the system such that each source of music (CD, FM, AM, DVD, etc.) provides the best sound. However, the best sound design can sometimes conflict with other desirable system performance goals. The particular tradeoffs made in your M35/45 reflect this.
Let's talk about a specific case ... FM sound quality of the M45 headunit.
Ideally, you might think a good FM tuner would have a frequency response that is flat relative to the CD/DVD that the station is playing. Why would you want something different? When signal strength is good, this sounds logical. Oh wait a minute ... what if signal strength is good, but there's a lot of multipath (downtown in any big city)? Multi-path causes bursts of high loudness, high-frequency static. If your system has a nice flat FM frequency response (out to 15kHz), those static bursts are going to come through loud and clear. Is this good? Probably not. How would you solve the problem?
Idea #1: The carmaker could pump a big pile of money into the headunit to make a triple-diversity tuner with advanced real-time RF processing to detect and filter out multipath distortion ...
Idea #2: The carmaker could just bring down the high frequency response of the FM tuner so any static is not as objectionable ... but at the cost of some FM sound quality.
Put yourself in Nissan's shoes. Which approach would you take? Remember, you are in this business to make money ...
B
Read down a few messages to my explanation of Centerpoint.
CP is meant to be a bridge to discrete 5.1.
As you've noted, for matrix encoded material, Centerpoint in your M45 will put out a 5.1 decode with discrete instruments/sounds all around you. If you use Centerpoint with a normal Stereo disc, the effects will necessarily be different. With non-matrix encoded material, there is no "right" or "wrong" way of creating the additional 4 channels needed for a 5.1 playback. Bose Centerpoint has been designed for your M45 to make this synthesis in a way that we feel is reasonable.
It's worth knowing, non-Bose marketing analysis indicates that the VAST majority of people who have centerpoint in their MY 05 Bose equiped vehicles feel it enhances their listening pleasure. It makes the sound stage more spacious, and spreads the ambience more around them. But, liking or not liking this effect is a matter of personal taste. Your may just have a sense of personal taste that is different than the majority of Bose buyers...
One more comment about the front sound stage in the M35/45.
You said the centered vocalist is dead front (12:00). Right? Now, consider how wide the sound stage is to the left of center, and how wide it is to the right of center. The left stage width will be narrower than the right. This doesn't seem to bother you. In contrast, I am an amature classical musician, and I might not like it if the 2nd violin section were tightly scrunched onto the 1st violin section but the viola's are well spaced from the celli. For me, a center sound stage image at the center of the car provides a more symetric left/right balance, and more closely mirrors what I hear at Symphony Hall. The point ... you might not like a symetric sound stage (with vocalist at the center of the car), but others may feel differently.
B
You say a sub under the front passenger seat is needed because the system lacks "oomph." I'd like some clarification because it might just help influence the design of the next M audio system....
I know as a fact that the M45 technology system plays clean and reasonably powerful bass pretty far down in the frequency range. Try an organ concerto to see how good it, and yet natural it is. So, maybe what you want is not louder bass but bass that you feel more in your gut. Yes?
I can't say one way or the other, but consider that Nissan may not have been willing to package a bass source under either front seat. When you add all the electric gizmos down there, plus the rear seat heater ducting ... there can sometimes be precious little space for anything else.
It's the same boring story ... tradeoffs of cost, design, performance, packaging, and so forth.
After reading Brian's post I turned off Centerpoint and found the listening experience with regular CD's or mp3's to be greatly diminished. You are absolutely correct that CP moves the performer right to the center of the stage and creates a wider field. The type of music can greatly impact whether the sound is mostly from the center or from the total stage.
The ability to have settings by source type would be nice as FM and CD do not seem as bold as DTS, DVD-A sources but it really doesn't ruin the experience for me. I merely crank the volume on FM and CD and find that everything is fine. It is amazing though the difference the source makes on volume. I've found that I can turn the volume nearly all the way up for CD and FM and it is still not overly loud whereas DVD-A sources output the same volume at less than halfway up the dial. Would you expect that to be the case?
Anyway, I'm sure many enhancements could be made but I for one love the sound in the M.
What I did know was that Bose is considered to be one of the leaders in the industry. I don't know why they settle for agreeing to be paired with equipment with poor feature sets. Their reputation is at stake. I don't really care that Inifniti is using a different vendor's head unit. That's Bose's problem, considering that the overall sound and lack of features pales in comparison to the Lexus and BMW sound.
I am an FPGA designer, and know that additional features like Mute vs Pause during bluetooth or per-source configuration settings are extremely easy to do. How does Inifiniti decide which settings are required? Log onto any of a hundred thousand forums like this one. Read MP3 player reviews on Amazon - people are always screaming for the same features.
The average car buyer is a thousand times more tech-savvy than ten years ago. Car makers need to keep up with that - people want to customize their lifestyles these days. iPods let you take 5,000 songs with you wherever you go - we want it our way, and right now. Heck, some cars even come with several pre-programmed gearbox shifting programs. Why? Because they can.
When I'm on my third Infiniti and the stereo in my more expensive Infiniti consistently gets worse radio reception than the less expensive Infiniti, we have a problem. Actually, Bose has a problem. Again, it's their name on the box - no one knows or cares who made the head unit or antenna. For Bose to bring that up is pure finger-pointing. I'm absolutely certain that Bose signed off on their contribution to the M before it went into production. In doing so, they chose to have their good name paired with other not-so-good components.
When the company I work for designs a new piece of equipment, we make sure that it has at least every feature the previous one did. If it doesn't, we add it. Consistency is key.
The luxury sport sedan class is one of the most competitive. Buying decisions are made based on little things like my gripes more and more often. Infiniti has boldly pushed its way to the front of this class with the M. Many things were perfect in the M. I work with three people who actually chose Lexus and BMW over Infiniti due in large part to the Bose system. They feel that Bose is being left in the dust by the competition. As the owner of a Lexus as well, I'd have to agree.
I feel your pain, man. I sympathize with you all the way on this issue of branding without giving the namesake company the authority to guaranty features and quality ... BUT
look at it from a practical point of view. Carmaker X comes to you and says, "we want you to do the audio system for this next generation, BMW killer. But ... you have to be willing to work with headunit supplier F. Do ya wanna play ball?"
If you walk away from every deal where you don't get total authority, you will be out of business (or let me say you'll never get started).
Yes, it's Bose's problem, but it's really not Bose's decision. It sucks but that is the way the industry currently works. Now, let me refer you to a system where the same supplier did the headunit and the rest of the audio system ... the Acura TL.
It's not bad on 5.1, but try it on a normal stereo disc ... ugh.
As far as sound, I beg to differ with your comments regarding the audio performance of Lexus and BMW products ... Of course, you can say I'm biased all to hell, but I challenge you to (1) take a set of well recorded material (2) familiarize yourself with what they sound like in a mega-buck, painstakingly calibrated reference listening room that is equiped with really good speakers that have been carefully corrected for room and optimized for a single head position. (3) Using #2 as a reference, go see how the Lexus and BMW systems do on tonal balance and spatial performance. Then go back to your 14 speaker M system and tell me what's not as good.
Finally, consider this point about control of features and content.... Have you used either the old or new I-Drive? After weeks with the new 7, it still drives me nuts.
B
While I understand that trade offs & compromises are made when engineering a product, the point that Brian made is spot on. When I see the Bose name on a product, then Bose's reputation to me will be enhanced or diminished based on my (and other's) experience with that product. In the case of the M's premium audio system, the trade off and risks of not having supplying the head unit must have been one that product management examined and decided to accept. Time will tell if the Bose reputation is enhanced as a result of the M's premium sound system.
In the case of the Bose system in the Journey package, my experience with the FM/CD audio sound is that it is a step down in quality from my previous vehicle - a 97 Camry XLE. This is the first Bose related product that I have owned. As a result of this experience, I expect to exercise a healthy suspicion of any product carrying the Bose name in the future.
First, see my reply to Brian. Second, have you every run a automotive supplier business? How about a company that supplies major subsystems to the PC business, or the aircraft industry, or how about the telecom industry. I've done all of the above. I can tell you that
#1: If you take a "my way or the highway" attitude with zero tolerance to your customers priorities, you will not be in business very long or you will be a very very small niche player that will never have the resources to do research projects like the Bose active suspension. Sorry, but that is a simple fact of business economics of the 20th and 21st century.
#2: If Bose hadn't go to the automakers and convinced them one can make decent sound in a car, I dare say premium audio would not be as good as it is today. I can take apart any amplifer from any premium supplier today and see Bose's influence. Any.
#3: Business deals are not always what they seem. Let's try a hypothetical situation on for size. Let's say your company has figured out what it takes to make really great audio for the least price. You find a customer/automaker you agrees to build a headunit that meets your specs and to put in the components as you specified. On that basis, you go forth in good faith .... Late in the development cycle (and it's all lean, just in time, no more prototyping these days) you get your first glimpse of the radio. Surprise, it isn't anywhere near as good as what you had specified. If you pull the plug at that time, the carmaker will not be able to finish the car ontime because it's too late in the rapid cycle to bring on board another audio system designer. If you stick to your guns and walk from the job, you will never do business in the auto industry again. You can take that to the bank.
So, how do you propose to control things that are not within your control, things that you don't even have a chance to check out until it's too late to change? And how do you propose to fix those things when tooling is developed simulatneous with bad design (that was purposely hidden from you)? Answer that and Gary Cowger has a job waiting for you.
B
P.S. My wife had a Camry ( previous generation) and it was in the dealer countless times in just the first year of ownership .... YMMV
Thanks!
Sincerely Robert Mazariegos.
You might also want to drop by our general Infiniti M35/M45 discussion to just talk about your new ride with other enthusiasts. We have a number of M35 and M45 owners who are very excited about their cars.
Enjoy!
Thanks for sharing your insights and experience. You present a logical and real world explanation for why product quality may take a back seat when bringing a product to market. No doubt, these are some of the reasons why one hears the advice to never purchase the initial version of a product.
Once the choices, trade-offs and risks are evaluated, the decisions get made. It is then up to the marketplace to decide if the resulting product will be a success or a failure.
My point is that companies earn their reputations based on past performance. If a company with a strong positive reputation fails to sustain the tenets that earned it that reputation, the market place will eventually reveal it.
-- Zidecar
1. Lift off the side engine covers.
2. Locate the silver cogged wheels next each headlamp housing.
3. Insert a medium to large philips screw driver vertically straight down along the slot and engage the wheel cogs.
4. Turn the screw driver counter-clockwise to raise the beams. Both high and low will raise. I turned mine two full rotations.
I also have the same problem with the rear rattle. How did you resolve this? It sounds like it is coming from the exterior- rear driver side, low down -tire area??
Any ideas would be appreciated!
Cheers!
What I find curious is that when XM is between songs or whatever, a dotted line will appear where the artist and song title normally shows. But the lines go just about all the way over to the edge of the screen! Now why can't letters go to the edge if a dotted line can? Very odd. What's also interesting is that when playing an MP3 CD, the display shows characters all the way over to the end of the screen too.
Thanks
I also have a collection of fluid under the passenger side near the front wheel. I have just assumed it is from the AC.
No 3,000 rpm is not hard work for a modern engine at all. That's nearly loafing.
AS FOR THE RATTLE, IF YOU TAP THE DASH BOARD JUST BEHIND THE DRIVERS SIDE PASSENGER SEAT, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO REPRODUCE THE NOISE. IF YOU LOOK IN THE TRUNK AND TAKE OFF THE LINEER BEHIND THE DRIVERS SIDE PASSENGER SEAT, YOU WILL SEE A RECTANGULAR BOX OR AMPLIFIER. THAT IS THE RATTLE. IF YOU TAP IT YOU WILL HEAR THE SAME RATTLE. THE DEALER WILL HAVE TO INSULATE THE PLATFORM THAT THIS BOX SITS ON..
I HAVE TO TALL YOU THAT MY CAR RATTLES LIKE CRAZY. I SHOULD HAVE WAITED A YEAR UNTIL THE CAR HAS ALL THE BUGS AND RATLES WORKED OUT OF IT.
GOO LUCK..
I do not find this acceptable and want it resolved. I don't think it is something they can fix, as they have had 4 tries and have had the car for 2 weeks - and I think the problem is actually getting worse and not better. I have opted to utilize the lemon law in California and ask Infiniti to take the car back and their position is "It is not a defect". So we will have an arbitration hearing administered by the Better Busines Bureau in a few weeks and I'll let you all know what the outcome is. I purchased a car that is supposedly "technically flawless" but that has not been "my" experience. I only want what I paid for - nothing more, nothing less. Thanks for reading my story and I welcome any and all comments.
Irina
JJ