Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave

62vetteefp

Unless the regs have changed only the front seats require headrests. many cars today still do not have true head restraints in the center position in the 2nd row.

sboyd1

I've got 7 passenger seating in my Acadia (2nd row captain's chairs) and almost on a daily basis I drive to lunch w/ an adult in the middle of the 3rd row. It's the *only* adult in the 3rd row and they sit in that position b/c there's more leg room between the 2nd row seats.

As far as "amount of time" is concerned, if I got rear-ended while leaving our parking lot (@ 1.5 minutes in the car) it could be enough force to cause a whiplash injury to a headrest-less passenger.

I'm not going to comment on whether on not there should be a headrest in the middle position of the 3rd row. Fact is, there isn't. And I knew that when I bought the car.

I just wanted to dispel the "frequency" and "duration" arguments.

allmet33

Well...not saying it can't happen, but the chances are low. You could have someone that never gets rear ended with an adult back there. While a headrest can minimize the effects of whiplash, it doesn't prevent it. The best headrests are the active ones and you hardly, if ever, find those in the rear of a vehicle. They are usually reserved for the 2 front seats.

I have an '06 Azera that has a headrest in the middle position of the back seat. Guess how many times over the course of the last year there was someone sitting there that would take advantage of that. I can count on one hand and still have fingers left over. If you want, you can have mine.

So...the chances of you getting rear ended with an adult in the 3rd row seat are much smaller than you possibly backing up into something or over something because your visibility was hampered by a headrest in the center position of the 3rd row seat. I'm sorry, but give me a clearer view as I didn't buy my Outlook to bus the lunch crowd around on a daily basis.

However, you have only dispelled the 'frequency' and 'duration' arguments for yourself and for one instance. You could go the rest of your life without ever being rear ended again. Then again, you may be targeted by mystic forces that seem to have everyone rear-ending you every time you turn around. I would hope not on the latter.

I also noticed you said, "...it could be enough force..." I would assume that none of your passengers suffered from whiplash, which in the end makes this argument a moot issue. The headrest didn't matter one way or the other. If someone sits there knowing it doesn't have a headrest, then they take that issue into their own hands, it's not like you're forcing the person to sit there. If you tell the two in the captains chairs to slide up a bit, then the 3rd rown could be afforded a little more space and sit in one of the side positions and have the headrest protection, depending on how tall that passenger is. Personally, at 6'2", that headrest in the 3rd rown will do nothing for me in the event of getting rear ended.

sboyd1

metmdx wrote in asking why we thought the designers of the Outlook/Acadia didn't think it was important to put a headrest in the middle position of the 3rd row. You responded that you felt it was unnecessary because your experience indicated a) no one ever rode back there and b) no one would be back there long enough for a headrest to matter.

My experience is that a) adults ride back there, specifically in the middle seat, and b) any amount of time in the seat is long enough for the headrest to be useful.

When you pull the lever on the back of the 3rd row seats to fold them forward, the first thing that happens is the headrests fold forward. When you pull the seat back up, you have to manually pull the headrests back up into their useful position. I frequently leave the headrests flopped forward when I'm driving around with no one back there. It increases my visibility.

I don't see why the middle position headrest couldn't operate the same way. If there's someone sitting back there, they push the headrest into the appropriate position.

allmet33

No...I didn't say no one ever rode back there.

I did say that an adult that would ride back there, wouldn't be back there long. If the lack of headrest is an issue, then the person can sit on either side where a headrest is.

You are right, a headrest COULD exist, but...they chose not to provide one. Personally, I would agree with those of you that feel one should be there. I mean...GM is touting the 3rd row to be highly usable by adults and not just kids. That being the case, set the 3rd row up to be used by adults by adding the headrest in the center seat position.

What I posted earlier was MY opinion on why GM left out the headrest. They were playing the odds that even though they say the 3rd row can accomodate 3 adults, the chance one would be filled by 3 adults would be low. I mean...not too many adults I know of really want to be crammed into a 3rd row seat...that's for kids.

Maybe we'll see an addition of the extra headrest in later models. Don't hold your breath though.

rockfish1

Not only is the ride nicer but the stopping distance is better by around 12 feet at highway speed.

kcorey

I presently own a Terraza and I would guess that the reason for no headrest in the middle of the 3rd row seat is because it reduces vision through the rear window when looking through the rear view mirror.

imidazol97

CR has a habit of mitigating any positive toward cars they don't like (read GM) with something to remind people of past problems or something else negative. Here it was that it's been years since CR thought anything was competitive from GM.

lwolf99

I have been looking for a CUV to replace my current minivan. I want a usable 3rd row, and have pretty much narrowed by search to a Mazda CX9 and a Buick Enclave. Yesterday afternoon, I went to a dealer that is about an hour from my house, as they sold both Buick and Mazda. I drove the two vehicles back to back. I am pretty sure that I am choosing the Enclave. They have very similar features, but the 2nd row captains chairs and abiity to go between them to get to the 3rd row is probably to tie breaker.

Anyway, while driving away from that dealer, I decided to stop into the nearby Mercedes Benz dealer, and look at an R-class 350 SUV. It has 3 rows, with 2nd row captains chairs, and 2 seats in the third row (so 6 total). I talked with two sales people (very knowledgable), and took one for a test drive. It had a few nice features, but I still think the Buick Enclave wins. A few reasons, in no particular order
- R350 did not have heated mirrors (not a huge deal, but wanted to mention it)
- R350 did not have articulating headlights
- R350 only had single disc CD
- R350 has bluetooth option, but it is not supported for my Treo 700 smartphone
- R350 does not have an option for a trailer hitch. I do not do any towing, but we like to go family bbike riding on local trailers int he summer, and I have a bike rack that uses the trailer hitch. I would never buy a new vehicle that would not allow me to carry my bikes on a rear bike rack.
- R350 has 2nd row captions chairs, but there is only a few inches between them and it is almost impossible to squeeze between them to get to the third row. You still have to fold and slide the 2nd row seats to sneak past them to get to the third row.
- R350 was around $60,000.

R350 did have a few nice features that Enclave does not have, here are a few:
- direct iPod intergation
- oil & filter only need changed every 12,000 milees
- gear shifter is on the column, so there is more room in the console between the driver and passenger seats.

If the R350 had been a super great vehicle, I would have possibly considered paying the extra money. But with the above shortcomings, all comined together as a whole, I think the Buick Enclave is likely still the vehicle for me.

Just thought I would mention my experience, as I haven;'t seen any comments on the Mercedes R350 in this forum.

metmdx

Thanks sboyd for having my back on this....everyone else seems to miss the point....'if' an adult sits there they're gonna have a problem in a collision. Doesn't matter if it's 1 time or 100.

The other thing everyone missed is I said 'ditto for second row' bench seating. Everyone wants to dismiss 3 adults sitting in 3rd row; fine. But what about 2nd row? It doesn't have one in the middle either. If you're gonna have a 7 or 8 passenger vehicle ( a la Sienna/Odyssey), then every one should have similar equipment, at least as far as whiplash protection goes (no, I'm not a socialist), I just don't get the logic, or lack thereof. :confuse:

metmdx

Oh, and one more point...if you're concerned about rear visibility with a headrest in the middle row, then logic woiuld say nobody should sit in the middle of either row, since a person (depending on age, size, etc.) is gonna take up more of your vision by sitting there than the headrest! :sick:

allmet33

The only point I was making on this is that the good folks at Saturn played the odds on this. How often would an adult be sitting in that position? They figured the percentage was so low...they didn't need to put a head rest there (or in the 2nd row). I'm not concerned with the 2nd row myself as we ordered our Outlook with 2nd row captains chairs.

I saw a Cadillac SRX and I see they have the headrest in the middle position of the 3rd row, I can also see how it obscures a clear view out of the lower part of the rear window as well.

It's not a lack of logic, it's just about odds. If one is going to tote adults around in one of these CUV's, the odds are most adults will be sitting in 1 of 4 positions with the middle of the 2nd row and the entire 3rd row really being for children. NO, that's not to say adults would never sit in those positions, but just not often enough that they figured head rests were needed.

Look at how many cars that seat 5 adults don't have a head rest in the middle position.

It's impossible to please everyone all the time.

62vetteefp

I saw a Cadillac SRX and I see they have the headrest in the middle position of the 3rd row, I can also see how it obscures a clear view out of the lower part of the rear window as well.

I own an SRX and it does not have a middle headrest. And the two headrest that are there are a pain because I have to take the darn things out to fold it down. Since only kids are back there they are usually in the garage anyway.

allmet33

Okay...maybe the one you have doesn't. The one in my neighborhood does. Just pointing out my observation that's all.

62vetteefp

Is it last years model? Ours is the new one.

allmet33

To be honest, I don't know the model year. I see it come and go regularly. Since this whole headrest topic came up...I've been paying attention to various vehicles and that caught my eye to see 3 headrests going across the back row.

allmet33

Finally...our Outlook XR came in. Only issue is the A/C sensor for the 3rd row was malfunctioning, so they had to order that part and we'll take it back to be installed when that and our chrome side step bars come in to all be installed at one time.

I love everything about our Outlook (red w/ black interior). We got the 2nd row captains chairs, upgraded sound system (which sounds decent), convenience package, power rear liftgate, dual sun roof and back up assist. There are things I'm finding to be a complete surprise such as the screens for the sun roofs that are there and the ability to set all the door lock, back up mirror, entry lights and such from the driver's seat!!!

troutvalley

Does anyone (dealer included)know when 08 Acadia pricing from GMC will be available and when the 08 Acadia will be in dealer showrooms? I placed an order early May and need to have vehicle by late August. Also what do the dealer code's stand for on an order (1100, 3000 etc)?.

zman3

Pricing is already out. If Edmunds does not show it check out other pricing sites.

troutvalley

KBB has pricing but GM said that they have not released pricing to anyone and not to rely on what you find on the internet.

zman3

Believe GM if you'd like, but the on-line pricing guides have always been accurate enough. There was no official pricing released from GM on the Enclave until shortly before the vehicles shipped, but it was available on-line well before that. They were accurate within a few bucks.

With the Enclave being an 08 and not much more expensive, if at all, compared to the 07 Acadia/Outlook, I think we can assume that the 08 is not going up much in price.

msurmeian

I just ordered an 08 Enclave with EVERYTHING except the engine block heater in Ming Blue. I can't find anywhere on the standard equipment or options list where the center row console is listed as included. I ordered the 7 passenger version and will be really brought down if the center console was just part of the website concept. Feel free to shed light on this.

pmtre

I was told that the center console would be available later this year as the original design had a flaw. The late availability was disclosed in the brochure page 7-8.

msurmeian

Thanks for the info. Now I am brought down. If I am lucky, delivery will take some time so it comes with it. If not, maybe there is something I can buy from the dealer afterwards.

golfer16

I ordered an Enclave In late May. I was informed by the dealer that the vehicle would be here in 4 to 6 weeks. NO. I have now been informed that the date of production is not yet known and the car will be delayed. Is there a problem with the dealer or is Buick so swamped with dealer requests that it actually takes this long?

jbjtkbw00

I'm no expert in these matters, but from all that I've read, I think this vehicle's acceptance is a bit more than they thought and people are choosing this over both the Outlook and Acadia. Just my opinion as here in Central Florida, I have found no more than a handful of Enclaves on a lot at any given time, provided the dealer has any at all.

loach

I ordered an Enclave In late May. I was informed by the dealer that the vehicle would be here in 4 to 6 weeks. NO. I have now been informed that the date of production is not yet known and the car will be delayed. Is there a problem with the dealer or is Buick so swamped with dealer requests that it actually takes this long?

There is a 2 week plant shutdown around the 4th of July holiday. If your car wasn't built before then, you might be looking at late July for delivery.

loach

I'm no expert in these matters, but from all that I've read, I think this vehicle's acceptance is a bit more than they thought and people are choosing this over both the Outlook and Acadia. Just my opinion as here in Central Florida, I have found no more than a handful of Enclaves on a lot at any given time, provided the dealer has any at all.

The Enclave is certainly selling well, but the numbers don't back up your theory - at least not yet. Here are the number of units delivered in June:

Acadia - 7,006
Outlook - 3,869
Enclave - 3,659

GM reports 326,300 June Deliveries

golfer16

This is probaly true, however the Enclave has only been to dealers at the end of May and many have noty received any at this time. Will my order be put on hold until all dealer requests are built? Having driven bothe the Enclave and the Acadia I found the Enclave to be a more luxury crossover than the Acadia. The Acadia is a nice vehicle but doesn't have the luxury of the Enclave.

golfer16

THe same is true of the second row console. Not available at this time but will be an after market item. I wonder if Buick was really ready for the debut of the Enclave. It is a great vehicle and has a lot of class but some forethought would have gone a long way.

golfer16

Ordered our Enclave on Memorial Day weekend. Not in production YET. Very disappointing.

russstan

I ordered my Enclave on 21 May. I called the dealer yesterday (3 July) and the salesman told me they had received their allocation notice last week, and that it is usually 3 to 4 weeks from that time until receipt of the vehicle.

Can anyone explain what he meant by allocation notice?

davida9900

I have an r350, it has
- heated mirrors
- articulating headlights
- single CD play AND a 6 CD changer (and can play both, one in the back with headphones, one in the front)
- kids go through the center all the time
- paid much less the $60M
It also has separate climate control for the back seats
Most comfortable 2nd row and 3rd available (13 year old sits in 3rd row)
It does cost extra, but it is a mercedes and drives like a mercedes
- Ipod integration kit is available
- panoramic roof is a great option (not sure if buick offers it)
- powered tail gate is great for winter, closes with a touch of the button
- comes in diesel and gets 25 mpg

I looked at alot of vehicles that seat 6 passengers, this was by far the best in functionality and style.

belv

I went to my local Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealer and he told me they wouldn't have an Enclave to test drive until October. I then asked to test drive an acadia and they were all out of those for the next month or two. What's going on. Is GM going to increase production or just keep people waiting?

belv

Does anyone know what the production capacity is for the Lansing Delta Township plant where the enclave/acadia/outlook are built?

loach

Don't know about production capacity but in each of the last 2 months (May and June) GM delivered over 14,000 Lambdas to customers.

stever

I can't find capacity numbers - you can get actual numbers produced from GM:

GM Reports 326,300 June Deliveries

I'm not sure if all three shifts are running now at Lansing Delta Township; that would affect capacity too.

dmathews3

If I remember about a month ago the Lansing, Mi. paper said that GM has scraped the 3rd shift even before it got off the ground. I guess they figure that once product and people catch up with each other it will only take 2 shifts to keep everyone happy. Also remember the old Saturn plant in Springhill is going through a refitting to produce a Chevy version of the triplets. To hire that many employees for say a one year job and then have to pay them unemployment benifits etc. to get rid of them would cost a bundle and not good business. Besides flooding the market will do nothing but drop the value of your new ride.

loach

Looks like from following Steve's links that LDT produced 17,275 total units in June. With the plant shut down for 2 weeks in July, that number will be much lower this month.

belv

I wonder if GM has the ability to move people from factory to factory to compensate for demand. When I was at the dealership there were two other customers who were interested as well but didn't want to wait until October for a test drive. These vehicals might end up like the saturn sky which has a 20 month waiting period.

jjnnjohns

Does anyone know what two weeks in July that the plant is shut down? Ordered Enclave May 15. Not in production as of July 5. Bummer. If closed the first two weeks, delivery won't be till August.

loach

I don't know the exact dates, but I think the plant is shut down the 1st 2 weeks of July. So right now in other words. I'm trying to find out from my dealer whether my Acadia was built before the shutdown or not. If not, I'll be looking at early August as well.

dmathews3

So what are they supposed to do tell 500 employees in New York to sell you homes, leave your families and move to Mich. cause we need you there. Then when supply catches up with demand lay them off and say so long sucker? There couldn't have been much thought in your statement or you would never had said that.

golfer16

I don't believe anyone wants that. We are all concerned that we ordered our cars in May promised 4 to 6 weeks and still don't have any idea of the production date. I am very disappointed in your attitude toward everyones dilemma.

kenym

I went to my local Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealer and he told me they wouldn't have an Enclave to test drive until October

I don't know where you live but I live in North East Ohio. We have three Buick Dealers within fifteen miles of each other and all three of them have the new Enclave on there Lot's. They may not have the options or colors one may be looking for. But they are available to test drive.

dmathews3

I do feel for all who don't have their vehicles but you have to be realistic in what you were saying/asking. First off I've bought enough new cars/trucks to know that 4 to 6 weeks is bull in most cases. No way 4 unless a dealer just happens to get one in the fills the bill. Then being a brand new model I would think 7 to 10 weeks and possiblily 12 if it goes through either of the 2 week shutdowns (July/Xmas) I worked here in Lansing for 35 years on future products at GM so I know what it takes to bring a car to market. The new Lansing plant is doing the best job I have ever heard of in all my years. Not only are they introducing a brand new never built product (not a update that employees are used to) but they are also in a brand new plant where a million things could go wrong. I know it is hard to wait but I have ordered over a dozen cars in my time and never had one in less then 6 weeks. Hopefully yours was built before the July shutdown and is now in the pipeline to your dealer. I think I would tell your salesman that the 4 to 6 weeks was bull and just something to get you hooked.

kcorey

Gosh, when I went to several dealers they all informed me that it would 8 to 12 weeks, maybe even 14 weeks. I ordered a CXL knowing that it will take until at least Sept.,1. Hey, when it gets here, all will be well.

zman3

Last I checked GM had more than one plant in Michigan so I am not sure where your New York comment is coming from. Maybe you can cut them some slack?

jswtk

In 1996, we ordered a Dodge Grand Caravan and it arrived in about 6 weeks. On May 26 (Memorial Day) of this year we ordered a 2008 GMC Acadia ST1 AWD. It arrived July 5. Which saved us from having to lease a vehicle for our annual trip up north by 2 days. We're happy except for having to stay at 55 or under for the first 500 miles according to the owners manual. In both 1996 and 2007 we ordered vehicles which seemed to be in high demand and were able to get them in about 6 weeks. Took a look at the Buick Enclave. The exterior reminded me of a Ford Taurus wagon jacked up. Didn't like how they narrowed the windows on the tailgate and back sides. But the interior looked good with woodgrain trim.

kenym

Didn't like how they narrowed the windows on the tailgate and back sides

I agree with you about the appearance. I test drove one last Friday 6/28 and was really disappointed. The outside seemed bigger than my Rendezvous but the interior didn't. However I didn't have the third row seats in my Rendezvous, and I did have the Captain chairs in the rear so maybe that was the difference. The Enclave had a lot of blind spots that I didn't care for. Changing lanes and backing up is going to be a challenge to say the least. It was very similar to driving the Dodge Magnum with the narrowed windows on the tailgate and back sides. Sharp looking in appearance but too many blind spots.for an old person like me. :shades: