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Comments
If Audi didn't run with LEDs, making them "cool" to the masses, nobody would have them now, including boring Lexus.
Audi popularized LEDs and then went too far with them.
However, I do think we should be open minded and judge a product based on merit first and foremost.
So when the new Sienna came out, and they cheapened it out, cost cutting was evident, I was critical. I'd still get a CPO version of the previous one.
So clearly, no worship, not a fanboy. More like cost cutting police, as I will point out the things they remove.
But...when a new GS comes out and you dismiss it wholesale, without ever driving it or anything, to me that's just pure bias. Brand snobbery, perhaps.
German sedans have softened up a bit, and yes I drove them to be able to say that. Leaves the door open for more competition, at least to folks who are open minded.
Merit, not past history, not some subjective thing like "soul". To me, at least.
http://www.examiner.com/cars-in-national/two-more-cars-earn-top-nhtsa-ratings-fi- at-500-struggles-agency-s-crash-tests
The outgoing model got 4 stars.
I think the only rear spoiler that ever had any real effect on a car was this, and even then, it only made a difference on the Nascar track.
FWIW, the drag coefficient on that beast is something like 0.28!
Isn't the main function of a rear spoiler to apply downward force to the rear wheels, anyway? And again, that probably only comes into play at higher speeds.
There once was a time when designers thought that long, tapered rear-ends, such as what's on my '76 LeMans, helped reduce that low pressure zone in back. But in wind tunnel testing of mockups, to have any meaningful effect, you had to taper that rear off to a low point that extended out about another 6 or 7 feet. And cars were long enough in the 70's, without that!
Not for a hybrid. Fuel economy comes first, so it's all about reducing drag.
I agree with you. There are a number of posters on these boards who are brand or country loyalists - GM-only lovers, German-only lovers, other brands and countries as well. True objectivity requires somebody to see the bad in their own loyalties as well as the good in the "other brand/country" products.
Those of us who've owned vehicles from many brands/countries can more objectively see the entire field. Take me - I've been loyal to Honda in the past, but lately I think they've really lost it; I've been loyal to VW, but they are Americanizing their vehicles (and not for the better); I've been anti-GM, but they have really been improving, and I admire Toyota for reliability, but I think they're so boring that I would never want one (and have never owned one).
Many aspects of vehicle choice are subjective, especially design and "feel". There are many vehicles I can say I won't want, without driving them, simply by looking at them.
Toyota lovers as well, FWIW. Gary's encountered a few bad apples, for instance.
I don't think any of them are regulars in this thread, though.
The irony is my Toyota was a conquest sale, and I was happy with my previous car. Subaru just didn't have anything big enough to meet my needs. My loyalty is to myself and my family, not some car company.
That's fair, but you seem more than skeptical, is all. At least that's how you are perceived.
Car & Driver was the one who commented the GS may occupy the slot that formerly belong to the Bimmer 5, not marketing.
The LF-A 'ring run went against a stop watch. That's merit, not hype.
Same for the IS-F Lightning Lap. Merit, not marketing.
You dismiss all of those things.
Even if the competition is softer, it can't be as soft as the subject brand here
Can't be? That's what I'm talking about, have you driven a GS? You speak in such absolutes, you can't possibly know that.
You can't except it. Not the same as it can't be.
especially design and "feel". There are many vehicles I can say I won't want, without driving them, simply by looking at them.
So you can feel a soft suspension by looking at it?
That's impressive! :P
I see the word "may" and move on. Maybe another one where a base 528i with absolutely nothing is compared against a loaded model, or somrthing to that effect.
I don't embrace any cars basing merits on single laps.
Why do my absolutes and my opinions frustrate you so? If I was taking BMW to task and adoring the beige, would it receive such perpetual annoyance?
I can make a very educated guess about a suspension by simply looking, yes. Maybe 10% of the time I will be wrong, but the remaining 90% I will be right :shades:
'Nuff said.
I agree with you. By looking at this picture, I know I don't want it. The front is just ugly.
I don't know about the free ride so much - Audi in particular almost died here, and it wasn't all from the unintended acceleration lie. People voted with their feet. The thing about these type of German cars is, when they are at 100%, they are great to drive, top notch. The servicing can be annoyingly expensive and some models have heavy problems, but when they are mended, not much else compares.
You're very right about the driving characteristics and how funny it is when one tries to play in the expertise of others. It's OK when they make little moves, but pretending can be worthy of derision. And never buy them new, as you say, the depreciation is steep, even several Lexus models lose a bit of value.
In America, anyone can get what they want even if they can't afford it :shades: ...and everyone can think what they want.
IIRC, the LS400 undercut the S class by about 20%. What made the Lexus brand successful was they captured Toyota ownere that wanted to move upscale. Those buyers wanted upscale but didn't want to drive a Toyota anymore.
The LS succeded by beating BMW and MB on price. The first gen LS sold 160K units in 4 years.
Personally, I think the big impetus behind the growth of all of these upscale brands was leasing allowing people to stretch into one whatever the make.
No doubt many buyers weren't conquests, especially as the 92+ ES replaced the Cressida, but many were, too - it's a big jump from a Toyota branded car into an LS. Either way, Toyolex understood the highline market in NA...although not so much in other places.
Toyota upgraders were the reason for the Lexus. It's growth came from being able to capture sales from the other luxury brands.
When you're spending that kind of money, I'm not sure brand loyalty plays as much into the decision.
Perhaps today not so much but back when Lexus was introduced, the knew that the brand loyalty was key to the success of Lexus. That was the job for the ES250 - capture those Camry buyers looking for more prestige.
If MB was preceived as the best quality, I would think those Toyota upgraders would have gone with the MB?
I don't agree that MB was perceived as the best quality back in 1990. It was a prestigious brand but IIRC it wasn't perceived as a reliable brand. That first year MB and BMW sales dropped 29% and 19% respectively.
Lexus' growth at first was it's quality products and it's level of service. IIRC, Lexus dealers humbled MB and BMW dealers with the service level.
As for the use of leasing, it definitely was one thing behind the growth of all these brands. But in reality, it's not strictly their tool. All brands use leasing as one way of getting butts in the seats by promising a low payment. Leasing at one time was this esoteric method reserved for businesses. It was just brought out from the shadows to become an accepted form of financing.
As I noted above MB and BMW sales dropped 29% and 19% respectively. 35% of the trades that first year were Lincoln and Cadillacs. Add it up and it's 83% conquest sales if we assume all the MB and BMW drop went to Lexus.
As for the jump from a Camry to an LS400, yes that's big. But the jump from a Camry to an ES250 wasn't that big. The ES had an MSRP of $22K. The Camry was probably about $16K. No so much there.
You may have hit it on the head. German engineering may be good, but it is often too complicated as well as requiring too much upkeep or maintenance. Europeans may like to tinker with their vehicles, but most Americans don't and dealer service shops are expensive. Also I think Americans tend to not keep their cars as long, we like them newer and we probably pile more annual mileage up, so all the more reason we don't like having frequent service requirements. It's all about life cycle cost and convenience here.
I wonder how many of those early ES actually were base MSRP cars. Base MSRP early LS was a cloth car, of which I have seen exactly one in the flesh. Anyway, that line likely received a lot of Toyota owners. LS and later SC, probably not so many.
Doesn't gagrice still have an early LS in his possession?
I didn't get a good enough look at it to tell what year it was. At a quick glance, the whole 1989-2000 run looks the same to me, even though I know there were changes here and there (longer wheelbase at some point, etc). I still see a good number of those on the roads.
I also see a decent number of LS430s running around, but with the LS460, I hardly ever see them. I wonder if the car just got too expensive, and it's getting to the point that anybody buying something that expensive is just going to go all the way and get a Benz S-class or BMW 7-series?
Well the LS has a base price of over $68K. I just think the market for $68K+ cars isn't that big.
On their website, they compare themselves to the S550 at $95K, the 750 at $85K and the A8 at $79K. It's possible that LS prospects might just spring for the extra $10-$30K for the other models. IMHO, in the $60K+ stratosphere, it comes down to preference although I think some "value" buyers would get the LS as the smart choice. I don't believe the plebian masses would really consider the Lexus a value buy as all these cars are the same price to them.
PS
We have a great Lexus repair shop. It would not be worth owning if you have to depend on the local Lexus dealer. Real rip-off artists.
Heck, I was kinda thinking the same thing!
If you get rid of that old car, give it to someone who will continue to take care of it - collectible potential is microscopically low, but it would be a shame to have it trashed.
Regarding early LS updates, there was a facelift for front and rear in 1995, and a heavy refresh in 1998, before the W140 knockoff that came in 2001.
A LS is a value buy used - you can easily find new style (07+) models for under 40K, then it can be a lot of car for the money.
Standard bumper looks better on both.
I bet Gary paid half of that for his. Even with inflation the price has crept up.
The GS occupies its old price slot (inflation adjusted), and is now V6 only.
So you no longer get the flagship, nor do you get a V8, for similar money.
True but since the S400 is a hybrid, I didn't want to confuse things.
I guess the LS460L could be compared to the S550 - both long wheel base and the Lexus is about $19K less.
Oh, but I'm sure they serve you delicious lattes and pastries while you lounge in overstuffed leather chairs in the rarified air of their beautiful upscale dealership while they're ripping you off. :P
Now the Genesis might be the smart buy over the LS or a used LS.
I much prefer the Genesis. Get the interior package that puts real cowhide on the dash, and even the base 333hp V6/8 speed should be plenty, and return 29mpg highway to boot. That would make a good trip car for covering long distances.
My wife's OB/GYN gets a new LS every couple of years, I can't imagine her in an Equus.
Japan's government also extended rebates on full efficient cars for a year (they had expired in September), and extended tax breaks for hybrids for 3 years. A lot of the existing fleet was damaged after the tsunami.
Should boost the domestic market.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/12/it%E2%80%99s-official-toyota-prius-and-- porsche-911-are-germany%E2%80%99s-most-reliable-cars/#more-421764
Toyota held the top 2 spots.
They also had 3 out of the best 4 among older cars.
I decade old Ford Ka has about a 39% chance of failing their admittedly strict standards.