Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't imagine the Polo TDI is a big seller either. But in the spirit of fairness the Polo is about 33% less money than the Prius and gets about 10% better mileage. A closer match would be the VW Golf Estate SE TDI at the same price and MPG as the Prius. More room, 0-62 MPH in 9.7 seconds and a top speed of 130 MPH. Hands down the winner is the Golf overall. I would imagine anyone interested in the driving experience will jump at the Golf.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2011
    Golf Plus makes the reliable list, too, but not the Estate.

    You gotta admit, it's funny that Germany's two cars most likely to pass inspection are Toyotas.

    And that's no fluke, BTW. The Auris is the basis for our Lexus CT, which was the single most reliable car ranked by Consumer Reports.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Not exactly like for like. And although slower, possibly more enjoyable to drive. The old slow car fast bit.

    A lot of those inspection data points might be useful if they included vehicle mileage. In Europe, Toyotas are often seen as pensioners cars, and might not be miled up like a diesel VW.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They also don't tell us which power train each car had. Too bad.

    Prius only comes on way, though, so it's still #1.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2011
    http://cnettv.cnet.com/2012-toyota-camry-xle/9742-1_53-50116158.html

    Very positive review, he calls Entune the best so far (I love the concept of using your already-paid-for smart phone connection), but still has ideas on how to improve it. Please, please bring that to Subaru!

    He also likes the 2GR V6 (same engine in my minivan), as much for its responsiveness as for the performance and economy. BTW, he was critical of the new DI 3.5l from Benz, for the opposite reason, here's that one for reference:

    http://cnettv.cnet.com/2012-mercedes-slk-350/9742-1_53-50114255.html

    Magic sky class is pretty sweet, though. :shades:

    He even complements the Camry's handling (*gasp*), though not for a sporty target customer, obviously, just for its class.

    He really didn't like the SLK at all.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    OK, I will take the car most reliable over 10 years, the Porsche 911. I like longevity over high mileage. As you probably know my vehicles rarely get over 5,000 miles per year. So long lasting is more important to me. Be interesting to see how many Prius make it to 22 years and still run good without any major part failures.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We'll both fight over that 911. :shades:

    I bet those do far fewer miles than any hybrid, though.

    I have a cramped car, and you just can't use it as much as you think. Even though I take the roadster every time I can, I still put nearly double as many miles on the minivan. That's just life.

    CR tested a 10-year old Prius and it pretty much performed like new. Hybrids didn't exist 22 years ago, but the batteries would likely be dead (though it will still run even with dead batteries).
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    And that's no fluke, BTW. The Auris is the basis for our Lexus CT, which was the single most reliable car ranked by Consumer Reports.

    Even though Consumer Reports lies!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Except when they dinged Toyota's v1.0 of the U660E transmission in the V6 Camry. Them were FACTS, man! :D

    They've also correctly reflected Subaru's issues. Early EJ257 engines got a batch of crank bearings that were bad, and they dinged them under the Engine category. Subaru replaced those and sure enough, scores improved dramatically.

    Right now the Sienna is the only minivan with above average reliability. Vans are complex, lots of power sliding doors and power folding 3rd rows and backup cams and rear entertainment, so it's an accomplishment.

    I still want to see better van choices. The new Sienna shows obvious signs of cost cutting with lots of hard plastics inside. The 8th seat isn't nearly as good as before, either. I hope the new Kia knocks it out of the park, if not I may just keep my old one forever.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/15/iihs-reports-record-year-for-top-safety-picks- -18-new-2012-model/

    Won't hurt that the new Camry, Prius V, and Yaris all were new to the list this year.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2011
    You shared a photo from the least flattering angle, but no review.

    Here's some eye candy:

    image

    It's like having 2 screens side by side. More than a foot diagonally, industry best.

    Here's Inside Line's review:

    http://www.insideline.com/lexus/gs-350/2013/2013-lexus-gs-350-f-sport-full-test.- - html

    Slalom speed was an impressive 69.7 mph.

    535i did 64.9mph with the Dynamic Handling and Sport Packages. M37 did 63.1mph, M37s in 67.9 mph. E550 managed just 62.8 mph but they tested a base suspension. The E63 AMG did 68.8 mph.

    You gotta admit, adding lightness works, plus all the work the F team did on the IS-F and LF-A have indeed paid dividends, as I predicted.

    The Bimmer 535i Sport and Lexus GS F Sport are direct competitors, so:

    0-60 in 5.9s 60-0 in 110ft 0.84 g of grip 64.9 mph slalom

    0-60 in 5.8s 60-0 in 112ft 0.88 g of grip 69.7 mph slalom

    Pretty even except the Lexus stands out in handling. Ironic, no?

    Here's Autoweek's review, the conclusion sums it up well:

    So, when you add performance bandwidth to a polished product such as the GS 350, allowing it to strafe a canyon road like a sports car as well as glide serenely to the office, it makes a fine argument for what the company has done here. All that's left to debate is the controversial new styling.

    Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111123/CARREVIEWS/111129963#ixzz1gjdpoFrt
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    edited December 2011
    Sound generator, ROFL. Strafe a canyon?

    I'd want to see those results duplicated.

    "as I predicted."

    Geez....

    But really, it should be good with the hype and the time L has had to finally make it competent. Nearly 20 years of some overly soft midrange sedans, the last version being one of the most invisible in the class if not on the market. It's about time the car is actually remarkable for something.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would imagine the slalom speed can be attributed to the dynamic rear steering. I wonder how long they keep that. We need to wait for a head to head matchup. Where the conditions etc are equal. Not real consistent braking according to Edmunds.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    have indeed paid dividends, as I predicted.

    Let's wait to see its sales volume next year. What's your prediction on it?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    My prediction is a banner sales year in the first, maybe on the second, but if it gets dull on the vine like the outgoing model, they'll be selling a dozen a month again. Lexus has to keep this model relevant and competitive.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think it says more about where BMW has headed than it even does about Lexus.

    Consumer Reports also complained that the 5 has gone soft. Remember, that's the sport package, and yes it gets the aggressive/ugly bumper too.

    I test drove a 535i, but on public roads, so I can't really comment much on the handling. For me, though, the forced induction sixes do not have the type of throttle responsiveness that BMW used to be known for.

    I liked the 550GT with the V8, though. No lag on that one.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    As for sales volume, we should expect increases, but let's remember that this is pretty far up the price ladder in the Lexus lineup. Sales will spike, but when the new IS comes I think that has more potential for sales growth, since price is more obtainable.

    The Germans have had a strong hold in that segment, so it's nice to see a challenger shake things up a little. I really think BMW wants to pitch the 1 (soon 2) and 3 series as sporty, and let the 5 go soft. This could be a wake up call to improve at least the Sport package Bimmer.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    It's a weird convergence. Lexus is trying to emulate the Germans, and the Germans have tried to emulate Lexus - both with only limited success.

    Was the CR car definitely a sport package car? I remember there was a test out there that wasn't clear.

    Sometimes, even in 2011, there is no replacement for displacement. 550GT will be a rare bird, I bet outnumbered by the lesser version by 20:1 at least.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    But at the same time, spec for spec, it is still a bit cheaper than the Euros- and on this continent, Lexus is firmly established and respected. It will sell, but as the competition improves, so must the GS - the previous one IMO did not. I'd be more interested to see how it sells in places where people don't worship at the altar of the swoopy L.

    BMW needs to remember it is sport luxury, in that order. MB is luxury sport, in that order. That's the tradition.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    BMW needs to remember it is sport luxury, in that order. MB is luxury sport, in that order. That's the tradition.

    How would you classify Audi? 50/50? Just curious.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Audi can be what it wants to be, as although the brand is old, it is reborn. 20 or even 15 years ago it was dead man walking here. Now it is AWD with luxury or sport, in that order. Some aren't a lot of luxury, some are anything but sporty, but the AWD heritage sets them apart, kind of like a prestige Subaru.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,796
    Prius V. Ride and handling are improved over previous Gen. Lot's of good features.
    Too much engine, road and wind noise.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's a weird convergence. Lexus is trying to emulate the Germans, and the Germans have tried to emulate Lexus - both with only limited success

    On that I agree all the way.

    I'm sure the Germans were frustrated that Lexus was outselling them, and the volume was coming from the ES and RX. That may have convinced them to soften up suspensions for US tastes (and potholes).

    In fact I wonder - are we really getting the same suspensions they get for Autobahn use? Or are ours dumbed down?

    Excluding M and AMG vehicles, of course.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For a while there, VAG sent VW after Mercedes (Phaeton) and Audi after BMW, albeit with the Quattro spin on things.

    They definitely go for both, though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure they limit the amount of insulation to keep weight down, so naturally NVH is the tradeoff. CVT + small 4 banger = noise, but that's how they get mpg in the 40s for a roomy vehicle.

    I'm on the fence when it comes to the V. I would have designed it bigger.

    For me the Prius C is the most appealing of the trio.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    For a while there, VAG sent VW after Mercedes (Phaeton)

    I'll respectfully disagree. The Phaeton was Piech's misguided attempt to get at least a little piece of MB/BMW business. It failed miserably here in North America but is still being sold in Germany. I think VW now knows where it should be focused.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The only thing bigger than the Phaeton's engine is Piech's ego.

    At least some interesting cars came about.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Compared to Euro models, the ones we get are soft and loaded up. Even the Germans understand the typical American shopper, as Toyolex does so well. I am pretty sure we do get softer suspension too - it serves as an excuse to get people to buy up into sport and tuned models.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, but I wonder how long they can coast on their past reputation?

    Sell too many softies and that performance aura fades away.

    I will say that commercially it will be a successful strategy, as long as the cars sold to younger folks remain sporty. I worry more about the whole FWD BMW thing.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Looking at sales numbers here and globally, I don't see anyone coasting at the moment, and the cars are easier to live with than they were even 10 years ago. I don't see any guard being let down, really, only the laggard finally starting to catch up on ideals better than isolation. Competition improves the breed.

    Maybe those who lease base 3ers won't care about FWD - they seem to barely drive anyway around here. Seems like a dangerous way to maybe burn through brand equity though, I agree.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Keep in mind that the FWD BMW's will be the 1 series GT and crossover. The current 1 will still be sold as RWD and will probably become the 2 series with the next platform.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Competition improves the breed.

    Spoken like a true capitalist! :P ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    So long as it is true competition instead of coddling and bailing out and inheritances and trusts and unfair trade, as "capitalism" exists in 2011 :sick:
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,796
    Size wise, it held 5 people and luggage for 4 for a week.
    Unless you are going to haul lots of pillows, I don't see any reason to make it bigger.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    So long as it is true competition instead of coddling and bailing out and inheritances and trusts and unfair trade, as "capitalism" exists in 2011

    Pretty much agree with you there.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Saw a Silver one today while walking my kid to school.

    Must be space efficient inside, then. Kinda like the Honda Fit, a size class over-achiever?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited December 2011
    Lexus LF-Lc Concept

    Don't officially know what the scope of the concept is but I see a serious rival to the Mercedes SL here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    I see Alien vs Predator used as a styling theme :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Video was taken down already...that was quick.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You don't like it, how predictable. :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2011
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/21/lexus-releases-official-lf-lc-image/

    R&T's image quality was so horrific it's no surprise they immediately responded with better ones.

    Looks a whole lot better than in R&T, too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Other than the rakishness, what's to like? A face a mother couldn't even love, and an insane concept that will likely be watered down and beiged up when it hits the road in 2021. Probably kills them that thy couldn't approach the SL with the even in boring old USA
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't like the chrome rims, but the rest is OK, it is a concept car after all.

    I'd move that contrasting strake from the front to behind the door, a la Audi's CF blade on the R8.

    I'm also not crazy about the two-tone pillars, but overall the proportions are good.

    I guess this is the successor to the SC? Wonder if it'll have a folding top. That looks more like a panoramic moonroof.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    You don't come out and say something is bad, how predictable :P

    The side profile actually is pretty decent, but that front end, what are they smoking?

    It's definitely a SC replacement, in my eyes. Since the old one was discontinued, women with multiple facelifts, and retired dentists, have nothing to buy unless they want to pony up for an SL.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2011
    I pointed out several things I'd change, FWIW.

    Front end is all about the hour glass, and a concept will only emphasize that. The sides of the front bumper look far better on the cleaner images than they did in the grainy early images.

    Styling is subjective, but R&T's cover calls it stunning. I'd wait to see it in person.

    The R8 can look like an overpriced TT until you see it in person and get a better look at the proportions, then it looks great. I love the CF side blades so the roadster is dead to me, even though I like roadsters, go figure.

    I'm not a big fan of the SL, the hard top looks "pin headed" and I'm allowed to say that because I feel the exact same way about my Miata. They make the hard tops small enough to fold up, but then the top half of the car looks too small for the bottom half. They look much better with the top down. Nobody takes photos of their MX-5 with the top up.

    Actually, I'd say the same for the Lexus SC hardtop, it had the same issue. Edit: and the ugliest wheels ever to make production.

    This coupe looks better. I'd still ditch the Saturn Ion multi-colored pillars, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lexus needs to do mandatory drug testing on their design team. Or hire an Italian designer. Looks like something a Pixar cartoonist would come up with.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    The hourglass/alien mouth is not a likeable theme, IMO. Stunning, yes, but an Aztek is stunning in its own way too. Just not seeing anything redeeming in that front end, more different for the sake of being different by designers who don't understand homogenous styling.

    I don't know if it is possible to design a retractable and have it look balanced. It all has to fit somewhere.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, I didn't like Audi's mouth-agape look at first, but it grew on me. Not only that, it was often copied (Mitsu, even VW), so it ended up setting a trend.

    This is Lexus' spin(dle) on it.

    I like the grille, but I don't like the "sport" bumpers with all the sharp edges. Same for the BMW M Sport bumper, though.

    Definitely a challenge to design an elegant folding hard top.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    I still call the Audi "big mouth bass", and I don't mean it in a nice way. I am used to it, but I don't think is pretty...at best the gaping maw reminds me of a 1930s German GP car, but those were more "wow" than "nice".

    I will agree "sport" bumpers and cladding in general is really becoming overplayed. It's like these guys are copying Pontiac, ca. 1993 :shades: I also don't like the vertical elements in the Lexus bumpers, fake aggression.

    The only way to get a longer folding top is to have a long trunk - which can look even worse, or more folds, which is a technical danger. I think I will keep to fixed roof cars for now.
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