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Comments
The Genesis will be their flagship, more about making a statement that Hyundai can compete even in pricey segments than about actual profits.
I believe that's their plan. The V8 could be used later in an upscale Veracruz or a sports car.
When the idea of a Hyundai over $30k becomes acceptable to the public, it makes it much easier for them to charge $25k for a loaded Sonata.
Toyota needs a 1999 Camry. Last model Camry worth owning. They lost it in 2007 and it will not be long before the current Camry sales crash. They are living off of sales based on the past. That can only last a short while. It has taken Toyota 50 long years to get where they are in the USA marketplace. How long before they blow it?
The TC is ok, but it still looks a little odd to me. It needs another 4-6 " in length for better balance. The mileage of this vehicle would be another turn-off for one considering it. I still don't see the value given the not so entry level price.
I believe Hyundai found their identity about 4 years ago, while the NF Sonata was in the works.
Hyundai is the car company that dares you to compare. They ask you to compare the quality and value of their cars with much more expensive cars. They back up their comparison with the best warranty in the industry.
That's what what Hyundai is, and that's what they intend to stay. My guess is that more and more people will be impressed by their comparisons. I have already read stories by owners that compared the Lexus RX350 and the Veracruz, and the Veracruz came out equal... except in price! :surprise:
I can somewhat understand where drfill is coming from. You have to believe in the product you are selling to be successful doing it. I once sold Nissans with a Toyota dealer next door. We were told to knock the competition anyway we can within reason, as well as other unethical practices that occured that I don't want to get into. I had my good days and my bad, but overall when I was away from the job I went home to my GM cars which seemed so much more solid, though the fit & finish was not as good but that is what I felt comfortable with. The doctor isn't totally biased based on some of his posts, just mostly anti-Hyundai.
Actually technically it was four. The Mazda Miata is not a Ford and someone was not to smart/knowledgeable in saying so. That would be like GM taking credit for the award winning Opel Cadet, or one of the Austrian Holden cars that do very well, etc.
Check out these owner reviews. I think DrFill has a review in there, and it isn't hard to spot!
Veracruz Owner Reviews
I sat in, but did not drive, a Veracruz.
I was throroughly impressed. The glove-soft leather was probably the most comfortable seat I sampled. Kudos.
They're definitely doing something right.
You need more than 3 owners in order to build a forum, don't you?
DrFill
I guess Inside Line, this website, was asleep when they made Sonata a distant, distant 3rd best compared to Camry and Accord. Altima was not tested.
Of course, this website has zero credibility, since Toyota can't stop winning comparisons here. They are the BMW of Edmunds. I lose count how many times Toyota has been the best product here. 6? 7 times?
Don't check with Consumer Reports either.
Or Intellichoice. Just don't.
Toyota is just about ready to croak. Right on the brink.
DrFill
So certainly you didn't read everything about the comparo, especially when both of the editors picked the Sonata in their recommendation section. Also, the previous test which these three cars pitted, the Sonata did come on top, FWIW.
Most would agree when I say cars nowadays are so competitive there is no clear-cut winner; and the gap has certainly narrowed. Certainly the fact all three cars you pointed out are fantastic in their own right.
To you, of course, Toyota is always on top.
Of course, this website has zero credibility, since Toyota can't stop winning comparisons here.
Not the case on either statement. But, I do recall you said something about comparisons don't mean a thing. I remembered now since fellow posters provided links where Toyota didn't actually win...
In '99 I shopped Siennas but the ones on the lot were too plush for my camping lifestyle. Also, like the Previa, no deals to be had. Tried to get into an Ody but the dealer tag-teamed me and I walked. Looked at all the rest and wound up in a Nissan. Great salesguy - he left a week later to sell Jeeps. The Quest is aging pretty well at 117k.
When it was time to get a second car to fill in the Tercel gap 4 years ago, I got a Subaru (used, from a friend).
Next one? Depends on bang for the buck. I don't much care what brand is glued on the sheetmetal. Even problem trends, like tranny failures or sludge, don't concern me too much since those issues rarely affect more than a few percentage of owners.
Really? I've seen very few around the DC burbs. That's successful?
I test drove one and liked the loaded Sonata much better. The Azera needs to go up a bracket and separate from the Sonata. Kinda like the Maxima and Altima competing for the same buyer.
How is the Azera not one step up the ladder to the Sonata? Next you are going to tell me the the Sonata has power rear sunshade, electroluminescent gauge cluster, 605 watt 12 speaker sound system, rain sensing wipers, etc available as are on the Azera.
So you won't eve look at the Elantra. That's a shame.....
I test drove both the Elantra and the Mazda3. I bought the Elantra Limited. Just as much fun to drive , equally decent brakes, way less money than the Mazda3 Grand Touring, better mpg. Only the former part of my statement is my opinion. The latter part is fact...... But I digress. This is Toyota vs. Hyundai. I "looked" a the Corolla and what it offered at various prices. I didn't even drive it. Not competetive, at least in 07.
Wishful thinking methinks :P . Or just throwing gasoline out onto the fire to see it flare up???
There was no difference between the '97 and '01 Camry's except for the taillights. I had one of each, a '97 and an '00. The big change was the larger platform and the 2.4L engine in 2002. That Gen was bulletproof also. The 2.4L is the basic engine thoughout Toyota's N American sales and it's just a great basic workhorse although it could be a little more efficient.
Your characterisation of the 2007's are way off base. Sales are skyrocketing and they've added 100,000 units of production at Subaru in Indiana. That's hardly a model in trouble.
The styling of the 2007's is probably the best ever.
The 2.4L is as reliable as ever.
the 3.5L V6 is one of the two best V6's on the market.
The Hybrid Camry has no equal ( the Altima hybrid being limited in sales ).
Add 7 airbags standard on all models..plus VSC/Trac, BT, Navi when ordered.
Sorry Gary, even from a salesman's pov this is an extraordinary vehicle.
As far as sales go, the Camry has been going strong so far; skyrocketing might not be the best word to use. Toyota sold slightly more than 7K as compared to last year in May, about 6,400 of which was made up of the hybrid model, factor in an extra day of selling, you are looking at good sales figure depsite times of not-so-optimistic economy.
BTW this model has been out for 16 months now and it's outselling the old model comfortably every month over month.
Obviously, YOU did not read where they admitted the previous test was skewed in favor of the Hyundai, and this test would be on a level playing field.
My, my. What happens when you don't grade on a curve! Did Toyota win? Again? Yawn. :P
To you, of course, Toyota is always on top.
Not just me, Joe. Not just me.
DrFill
9% of 430k+ (2006 sales) would be approx. 40k.
Coincidentally, that's about as many as Hyundai has sold Sonatas this year (actually more, since 27%+ Sonatas are sold fleet).
I guess, with a little research, it's not hard to find out what happened to Sonata sales. :shades:
470,000 Camry sales definitely is the final sign of The Apocolypse, no? :surprise:
Doesn't that mean that people don't like the car, when sales go up like that? Or is it down? I get it mixed up. :confuse:
DrFill
Yep!
It's coming! :surprise:
Sonata to the left of you, Veracruz to the right of you, Santa Fe behind you, Genesis and new Killer Coupe in front of you... the Tipping Point is coming for you! We know it's tough being all boxed in, Fill. You have my sympathy. It'll feel better when it quits hurtin', buddy.
I didn't read it? I read every word, actually. Had you read it, you would have seen those testers (editors) picked the Sonata in the recommendation page.
Like I said previously, I said time after time all three are great sedans. You just couldn't admit the Sonata is just as great as the Camry and the Accord.
Previous test skewed in favor of the Hyundai? Well, Edmunds tested based on price, don't be a hater (your favor word, apparently) just because Hyundai brought Edmunds a V6. Edmunds set the playing field, actually, Hyundai just provided the resources
And we've been through this. Others and myself have addressed it from every angle, just you don't want to believe the facts and the truth.
Doesn't that mean that people don't like the car, when sales go up like that? Or is it down? I get it mixed up.
Actually neither. It's too general of a statement to classify the correlation between likeness in a car and the final purchasing decisions. You would be surprised to find out the reasons of consumers' purchase decisions and how they arrived to them.
I'll take the pleasure of disagreeing with you regarding the Tacoma. My 07 Frontier is, IMO, a notch above the Taco. That is precisely why I bought it.
I still believe that Toyota places more emphasis on their cars than they do their trucks.
My nickels worth.
Millions, not hundreds, millions of people see the value in buying a Toyota.
There are plenty of people out there who would buy a deal over a car. Aren't there?
My attitude is trust Toyota. Then drive a Toyota. If you are not satisfied, try something different. It's your money.
Spend it wisely.
Many do.
The tail doesn't wag the dog. Toyota isn't here to compete with Hyundai.
DrFill
When you're not the lead dog, the view never changes, baby!
DrFill
Use the reply link. I can't follow. What you talkin' about
When you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
When you're not the lead dog, the view always changes (and for the better generally).
When you're the lead dog, you are always the center of attention, for the good and the bad, especially the bad). Learn from the former (former #1, that is).
Actually they are, thats why they build cars. If Toyota wasn't here to compete with Hyundai or Mazda or whatever they would be selling something else.
I don't "sell down" Hyundais. I sell Toyotas.
You sure do, you take pot shots at them every chance you get.
And selling the brand is just as important, maybe more, than selling the car.
To some people yes, to others no. I personally couldn't give a rodents posterior for what name is on it as long as it meets my wants and needs and is a good buy. Those who buy soley on name are snobs.
Hyundai is not an issue. A non-factor.
Every car that Hyundai sells is a potential lose of a sale for someone, even Toyota. I am sure Apple once thought that Microsoft was a non-factor too.
Hyundai needs a '92 Camry.
They have one that is just as good if not better than the current Camry, for a lot less.
I don't have a problem with Hyundai.
yes you do, it shows in your posts.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Millions see the value in buying a GM or a Ford or a Chrysler. So what is your point? Remember Toyota is still a long ways back in the largest vehicle market in the world. You keep acting like you are number one in the USA. Only in the third world is Toyota number one. You have a long ways to catch up to number one here. Maybe 10-15 years. If the current reliability issues don't plague Toyota.
I think not.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Very accurate I believe. But from discussions and reading a lot of press reports one of the key points that keeps coming to the surface is 'watch out what's coming from behind'.
In a race you can always see who's in front and how far behind you might be. When you reach the front there's no one ahead but there sure can be a lot of others making their move on the outside or along the rail. A key thought I keep seeing is 'fear'.
Fear of ignoring something important.
Fear of not seeing a change coming.
Fear of underestimating a rival.
Fear of complacency.
Earlier this year the President of Toyota gave the engineers a directive. 'Take every vehicle apart and count the pieces. Now rebuild it using half the number of parts.' IOW if there are two pieces welded or joined find a way to form those two pieces in one operation into one piece. Consider that back in 1997 nearly all Toyota's had distributors, rotors, spark plug wiring. In 1998 all of those parts were gone. Direct Ignition by electronic signals to one induction coil per plug replaced the traditional method.
Hyundai: Each market is different. In NA obviously the domestic makers are the key ones to watch, but at least two of them have marginalized themselves. Honda and Toyota are in a struggle for the heart of Mrs Decision Maker here. Nissan is very 'different'. Wonderful products when they pay attention but limited production which limits their presence. Hyundai is a sudden newcomer here, whereas they were very much an also-ran in the past.
In Japan it's Nissan the traditional 2nd place player and the upstart Honda.
In the rest of the world Honda is nowhere. In the rest of the world Honda is just an engineering company with wonderful engines. But Hyundai is a huge presence in other parts of the world, bigger than VW or GM or Nissan. It's in the rest of the world that Toyota has to fear being shut out or left behind by Hyundai offering the Asian, African, South American driver something new first.
In the NA market the auto industry is very very capital intensive and it needs a very complex infrastructure of dealers and service and a full range of products. Here the one's that need the closest watching are Honda, GM, Nissan, Ford, Chrysler and then maybe Hyundai.
To some people yes, to others no.
The quote makes me think of a lady (40s) who bought two Toyotas for her family because her dad liked his early 90s model Toyota. I believe a lot of cars are bought in that manner by people who have no idea if it's the best or more suitable vehicle for their use.
That business model has worked on the upswing. But now that there have been several potholes in the reliability image for Toyotas, we'll see if selling the sizzle still works for knowledgeable buyers or not.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Others will buy an image as long as they don't get burned more than one or two times. While others will stick to an image no matter what.
In short the sizzle will work for a while, but not for long with knowledgeable buyers.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The Camry has never been a style winner. That being said there is many conservative bland cars on the market including the competitive Chevy Impala that still sell well.
To some people yes, to others no.
I guess I have a little different perspective on image and brand. Instead of going on the distant past, I read the signs. I believe Toyota can read the signs too!
I studied Hyundai, and assessed their current and near-future situation. The past means little to me. Hyundai's metamorphisis made it a great situation for me in 06, whan I bought my NF Sonata. Here are the signs I read:
*Hyundai had just spent billions to engineer and build a high quality competitor to Camry etc., with amazing value and warranty.
*Hyundai committed mightily to improve their image, and failure was not an option.
*When a company commits billions to improve their image, they will likely jump through hoops to make their customers happy.
*Hyundai made bold statements that I fully understood. Koreans and Japanese are such bitter rivals, if those statements weren't backed up, it would be a deep embarrassment. Heads would roll!
Put all of these things together, and it told me the Sonata was the right car at the right time. It was a no-lose situation. I took advantage like an oportunistic jackal snatching meat from 2 bickering lions.
I have about 7 years to go before shopping for a new car, and I am shopping for a pickup now. I will look for the same type of opportunity when I purchase my next vehicles, regardless of the badge.
DrFill
Wow that was real mature...
This helps the discussion how?
Its better than listening to 3 guys here that feel they have to constantly reshape others' thinking that Hyundai is the only car anybody should want or need. This is a silly thread. Toyota will do what they want regardless of what the vocals here think. Toyota obviously has it going good. If Hyundai ever gets anywhere near half of Toyota's sales you'd better believe there will be 3-4 vocals on a new thread that will issue the same warnings for Hyundai these guys here do for Toyota. And that too will turn silly.