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Toyota Fearing Hyundai?

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Comments

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    was really founded on the question of whether Hyundai is a company Toyota needs to worry about in its future endeavors. Certainly the answer seems to be "yes" on the global stage. In the U.S. Hyundai does not present a more pressing threat than many other players, the most important of which are probably Honda and GM for Toyota. But it seems fairly apparent that Toyota is always "worrying" about ALL the competition. The only question is whether Toyota is DOING enough pursuant to its worries.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Galvanized steel is what happened.

    Traditional Hot Dipped Galvanized Steel
    Galvannealed Steel
    Electrogalvanized Steel
    Zincrometal Steel.

    You can actually carve your initials into your vehicle and it's guaranteed not to rust through for at least 6 years, maybe never.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think any smart manufacturer will keep its eye on almost any other manufacturer that even competes in the same segment as its core products.

    They'd be wearing blinders if they didn't.

    Of course Toyota has an eye on Hyundai. So do all the mainstream brands. Hyundai has an eye on Toyota, too.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    Your first point: "This is a silly thread".

    Your follow on point: "There will be 3-4 vocals on a new thread that will issue the same warnings for Hyundai these guys here do for Toyota"

    I agree on both counts. It started out as a good discussion, but has pretty much morphed into a oneupmanship competition.
    There hasn't really been any meaningful input for weeks. Nothing has been said that hasn't been said many times before.

    A couple of days ago I tried to interject a little light hearted counterpoint to get things away from veiled personal attacks, but my well meaning effort was nixed--either somebody complained or the host felt it wasn't appropriate.
    Either way, it disappeared--but that doesn't change the fact that the whole discussion has gone south, and contains little of any prurient value.

    I think it should be archived. How about it host--either that or ask the regulars to cease the incessant dueling over who can outdo the other in a dissing contest.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Another excellent post! :)

    DrFill
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Certainly if you flipped back and revisited some of the posts, you would have noticed a vast amount of incorrectness, mostly on anti-Hyundai posts. Of course names will not be mentioned, and not have to be, as they have been pointed out time after time.

    If anyone has been reading and following, one would have observed the amount of attacks on the Hyundai brand and its products, from mostly theories (later proven to be incorrect). Nonetheless, there have been a good amount of knowledgeable posters, possessing a good understanding of the automotive industry, and pointing out those mistakes.

    Let’s go on the record and repeat what has been said many times - most, if not all, respects Toyota, which the company rightfully deserves. One thing that is puzzled, however, when comes to Hyundai, to some people, the company doesn’t deserve an ounce of credit. Admittedly, Hyundai’s got a long way to go, but given its vast improvements, a good amount of people have stopped laughing (of course there will be naysayers, just like the Japanese makers still being laughed upon years after the first occurrence). Keep in mind this not the representation of the whole forum, but there have been quite a bit (and serious) of evidence of denial, double standards, and posters spreading propaganda, albeit, and thank god, representing only the minority.

    Let’s get one thing clear, those having defended for Hyundai and corrected the mistakes and (incorrect) theories made, have not tried to convert, or reshape fellow posters. Of course, as we all know, there wouldn’t be any incentives/agenda to do so.

    Hyundai builds good vehicles, even drfill has admitted to such fact. Are they as good as say, Toyota? I’d think so, based on my extensive experience on both sides (driving and testing their vehicles). As a matter of fact, most of the industry seems to think so as well. Might somebody else have the same view? Not necessarily and I would not expect everyone to – that’s the beauty of different products available for different people. However, it’s one thing to go out and cross-compare/shop; it’s another to bash without proper knowledge and background (e.g. Azera needs to be differentiated from a Sonata).

    FWIW, the gap of cars these days have narrowed quite a bit, and this applies to products industry wide, from mostly all brands. There are a lot of areas Hyundai has to improve upon, certainly true for Toyota as well (not as in many areas), certainly true for just about every automaker.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Well spoken.

    The only question is whether Toyota is DOING enough pursuant to its worries.

    I don't think they are, or Toyota would be cracking down on the lousy customer service rating problems. Without good customer relations your market will wither and die. Just ask VW. Toyota ranks below all but 10 other automakers. They are below Hyundai in customer service rankings.

    Customer service
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    lousy customer service

    You're not kidding. My Sienna came with the tires pumped up to 40psi. OK, common mistake.

    It had no antennae. At all. They ordered one. In fairness, model with the JBL system have an in-glass antennae, but this is a pretty big thing to overlook.

    It was missing the grommets to plug the tie-down locations. They can't find the part in the catalog, still pending.

    The sun visor had a very small flaw on it but it was brand new so I asked for a new one. Ordered.

    They just called this morning to tell me parts had arrived. The same people told me my tags were in. I made an appointment for Friday.

    5 minutes ago I got another call to tell me the parts had NOT arrived. Huh?

    Then, I asked if the tags were here. Tomorrow. WHAT? How did those 2 things disappear, and why did they make an appointment if nothing had arrived? :confuse:

    This isn't really Toyota, it's the dealer, DARCARS 355 Toyota. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, literally.

    Once I get the visor and the plates, I will *never* go back there for service. No way, no how. I'll do the maintenance myself, and not take chances with that kind of service.

    I think as Toyota grows there will be growing pains, for sure. And they have to try at least to control their dealers. That's probably a bigger concern than Hyundai, even.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It is a problem and none of the stores that are growing are exempt from these small but important problems. It's a struggle.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why is it a problem? If Lexus can rank number one in customer service, why is Toyota in 26th place? They are the same parent company. Is Toyota division management lax on their dealers? I am sure their are people lined up to take over a faltering Toyota dealership. Maybe if corporate did some research and pulled the franchise from a few poor performers it would snap the rest into line.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Volume. Specifically the sudden change in volume. Small stores with stable personel and a stable customer base and the same turnover each month can focus on the small details that are so important to customer service.

    One extreme example: The new Tundra
    It has..
    3 Cab configs
    3 engines
    3 bed lengths
    3 trim levels
    2 drivetrain options
    Packages that only come on the base trim
    Packages that only come on the SR5 trim
    Packages that only come on the Ltd trim
    Options that only come on the SR5 and others that only come on the Ltd.

    OK Tacoma.. almost as many variations.

    These two alone are more than all the Lexus combinations taken together for all vehicles.

    Ask the typical sales person how to program/operate the Navi system in the XLE Camry or the Prius or the Avalon and they shudder.

    Ask the typical sales person to explain how the HSD works and how it differs from the IMA and you may run into 47 blank stares.

    And each sale generates $75-$100 comission. 'You want me to learn all this for $75? Where's the used car lot?'
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >Volume. Specifically the sudden change in volume.

    >47 blank stares.

    >'You want me to learn all this for $75?

    The managers need to do some training if volume is the excuse for poor customer service. The salespeople need to spend time between birds walking onto the lot reading and studying what they're selling. ;)

    These are the same salesmen who invariably greet those birds with attitudes and comments about how wonder these products are compared to all the other junk people have been buying in the past and they're "letting" you have the privilege of looking in their cars and maybe selling you one with a $1000 pack and a doc charge of $595...

    Maybe instead of gossiping with other salesmen or smoking the salesmen need to do some studying product information. With the high volume that means they're getting lots of $100 commissions due to the high number of sales, doesn't it? :confuse:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You want me to learn all this for $75?

    If that is all they pay a salesperson. How do they get anyone with more than a grade school education? Do all dealers pay that little for new car sales? You would have to sell 5 new cars a day to make a decent living. I know mechanics make pretty decent wages in most dealerships around here. I would think that service reps should do as well. They are the ones responsible for the customer service ratings. Or is it Toyota does not have good inventory of parts? I see that complaint from many posters. Waiting a week or more for a car to be put back on the road is ridiculous. That was my biggest complaint with Subaru in Alaska. They just did not care once they sold you the car. At least that was the case in 1974.

    You make some interesting points. I would say any salesman with that variety of models and options would have to do a lot of homework to keep on top of the game.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I never got as excited about the full sized vans like I did the minivan (I remember discussing them in the late 70's with my eye doc, both of us hoping that Dodge would actually build them).

    Ziebart? What Kdhspyder said. Although we should ask any Canadians here if they still are oiling their chassis annually.

    Retire the topic? It does seem to have run the course out and back a few times now. We could aim for parting shots up to #2,000 or just let it fade like old paint.

    But as soon as we shut it down, some news will hit - maybe Hyundai, Kia and Chrysler will merge - and we'll all be back wondering if HyKisler will blow the socks off the Japanese. :shades:
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    That's what I have been trying to get across all these times. I work directly with number of automakers on many projects so I get fed with the latest info about the automotive world, whether I wanted to or not. ;) Of course, then you have some here trying to twist the truth, when the facts are clearly written on the wall and proven, that's where these pop up:

    Regardless of where I work, my Toyota bias is quite old and consistent.

    Accent is a direct competitor to Yaris. Rio is not.

    Hyundai should wait until 2015

    Hyundai is "in the gutter"

    That's just the way it is. Some things will never change.     (referring to Hyundai will always be the bottom-feeder)

    Hyundai was dog food in 2002

    Hyundai salesmen make a commission? I thought they got $50 a car!

    Don't really care about Hyundai.     (then spends all these time spreading propaganda about unproven theories)

    If Hyundai would keep the chest-thumping to a minimum, they wouldn't look like clowns to the casual car guy.

    Seems I'm the only one who can come up with objective data since I've shown Toyota still dominates Initial Quality

    And all this from ONLY the first few pages when the forum got busy a few months ago.

    Toyota has shown it respects Hyundai (and vice versa), I think we (here) should at least do the same. After all, most here I would think are car enthusiasts :) I know I am, and I have the highest admiration for automakers past and present, and follows all of the latest products.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I can hang up my ruler, and we can have a discussion without the conjecture.

    Don't start none, won't be none. ;)

    DrFill
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    If that is all they pay a salesperson. How do they get anyone with more than a grade school education? Do all dealers pay that little for new car sales?

    It's close. If you pop over to the Stories from the Frontlines forum you'll see this come up often.

    If you can last throught the first year and build up some knowledge then repeat business and used car sales become your bread and butter. New car sales are almost always $100 mini's. There's just no margin in them. This is intentional btw. There are 3 competing forces at work on the sales side. The manufacturer, the retailer and the salesperson. The manufacturer wants more and more volume but perfect customer relations. The retailer has a huge investment to watch over and he has to keep the manufacturer happy. The sales staff just wants to stay alive. Often none of these vectors coincide.

    In the beginning the sales person may make less than a 7/11 clerk, thus the turnover. However right now at this point in history some of the most sophistcated vehicles and fuel and drive systems ever created are coming to market. Brilliant minds all over the world are creating diesels, and flex-fuel and hybrid vehicles that are some of the best ever made with features never seen on vehices before....
    ....and giving them to 7/11 clerks to market.

    '...for $75 you want me to know how much?'
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is a problem I think most of us would agree is a problem equally for Hyundai. I have never been to a stand-alone Hyundai store, so when I have visited Hyundai lots the salesmen there would have been hard-pressed to tell me anything about the Chevies on the lot (except maybe the Corvette), LET ALONE anything about the Hyundais.

    When I test drove the Accent SE I had to actually point out the car on the lot for the salesman to get the keys, as he was claiming they had none in stock when it was sitting in plain view.

    When it comes to Toyota DOING things that follow what it's SAYING, I was thinking as much as anything about last year's big public apologies about lax quality control and large numbers of recalls in 2005, and how they were going to slow down and turn everything around. Yet here we are in 2006, and they are once again saying they will do just that. What happened to the intervening 9-12 months? Toyota may just be getting too big for its britches, at least in the North American operation, and that is a very dangerous thing for them to do, as their rep for reliability is their primary selling point right now. Until they cement their "green/hybrid" rep or establish a new rep based on being technological innovators (as they would like to do), they need to protect the whole reliability thing.

    Hyundai is of course trying right now to establish a new rep with this whole move upmarket. There are only so many cars you can sell at rock-bottom prices, because lots of carmakers can sell at low low prices.
    With Hyundai setting its sights on Lexus models, it is clear that Hyundai is going to clash with Toyota more than most other carmakers, which is perhaps the best reason for Toyota to keep a very close eye on it.

    Of course, I can't guess how long it might be before people take Hyundai seriously as a luxury brand. Infiniti has been at it 17 years, and has almost zero brand recognition; Acura has been at it a full 20 and is still considered second-tier. Lexus is a respected brand, but not on quite the same level as BMW and Mercedes for instance. And Caddy seems to be on its way up. What will Hyundai do differently that will vault it to the top of this larger and larger heap, and if it does nothing differently, where will it be in the entry-lux game 20 years from now?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yet here we are in 2006, and they are once again saying they will do just that. What happened to the intervening 9-12 months?

    I think part of it is just trying to get a big company like that to move in the same direction, much less at speed. We're talking 280,000 employees worldwide.

    Hyundai Motor has around 50,000.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "Hey, now that Daimler and Chrysler have "divorced" will we once again have the classic Dodge van instead of that ugly top-heavy Sprinter?"

    So that Mercedes imported Freightliner van is going to be sold at Dodge anymore? What about some of the other Dodge products that have Mercedes parts?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the Sprinter is solid at Dodge and Freightliner. Jeep is using the MB diesel in their Grand Cherokee. I think Daimler still owns 19% of Chrysler.

    Having owned both an Dodge full sized van and a Sprinter RV. I would much rather have the Sprinter van. You would never get 25 MPG from the old Dodge vans.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    "Yet here we are in 2006, and they are once again saying they will do just that. What happened to the intervening 9-12 months?"

    Again--ill considered opinion with undertones of....propaganda perhaps??
    How do we know Toyo hasn't already acted on its commitment--and perhaps even achieved some of their target?
    As you so astutely noted, changing direction within such a large organization isn't going to happen quickly--9 to 12 months isn't unreasonable for sure.
    How long did it take for GM, Ford, Chrysler et all to wake up--let alone reinvent themselves? (BTW it's still a work in progess, isn't it??)
    That kind of change is kinda like getting an elephant's attention...first you have to kick 'em in the butt, then wait a couple of days!!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >You would never get 25 MPG from the old Dodge vans.

    The Sprinter vans I see around get 25 mpg. WOW. That's great.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I can hang up my ruler, and we can have a discussion without the conjecture.

    Don't start none, won't be none.

    Who or what post was that in reply to, DrFill? Have a little consideration. Please hit the reply link. It's just too confusing.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    I think Daimler still owns 19% of Chrysler.

    True...they do.
    Main reason is because they share some engines and platforms.
    Interesting---when Daimler was in charge, they mandated Chrysler to develop new engines and platforms; spent a ton of Chrysler revenue to do it, and now Daimler uses those Chrysler developments in their own product lines.
    It has been suggested by the pundits that one reason for Chrysler's slump in profits was due to the high costs of these projects.
    Go figure.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    25 MPG is the reason you see so many UPS & FedEx Sprinters now. I imagine they are the best selling van in the World.

    I don't think Toyota or Hyundai have a competitive product in the category :)
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    "25 MPG is the reason you see so many UPS & FedEx Sprinters now. I imagine they are the best selling van in the World.
    I don't think Toyota or Hyundai have a competitive product in the category"

    That van, as good as it is, is a niche product--limited market, low volume, marginal profitabilty, uncertain future.
    It isn't a world wide best seller.
    Can't speak for Hyundai, but Toyo's competitor offering is their Hilux--and it is the best seller in the world, altho' we don't see too many of them here.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...might be good for FedEx, DHL, and UPS, but I never seen a private individual or contractor own a Sprinter. They're sticking with the classic Chevrolet and Ford vans.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Toyo's competitor offering is their Hilux

    With all due respect the Hi-Lux van in the largest size is still a mini van. Not in the same league as the Sprinter. The Hi-Lux is 17 feet long while the Sprinter I owned was 22 feet long. It also had an 11,000 lb gross vehicle weight compared to 6600 LBs for the largest Hi-Lux van. Granted Sprinters are a niche vehicle. They are also the best selling in their class. They are also available as a plug in Hybrid currently in service here in the USA.

    The Dodge Sprinter Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) can drive up to 20 miles on electric only power and is an industry first: PHEV combined with diesel for maximum fuel efficiency. So far DaimlerChrysler is the only automaker to test plug-in hybrid technology in the United States with customers. Sprinter Hybrid

    These are significant vehicles when you consider the millions of miles put on UPS and FedEx vans in a year.
  • ltmarltmar Member Posts: 45
    There are some RVs based on the Sprinter and I have started seeing some contractors and individuals using them recently. They are too tall to fit in garages so consumer sales will be limited.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Several electrical and plumbing contractors here in CA are using them. Nothing from Ford or GM is close in capability or MPG.

    Not sure why Toyota has not brought their vans to the USA.

    DaimlerChrysler today officially kicked off the production of the new Sprinter under the Dodge and Freightliner brands at the new assembly plant in Ladson near Charleston, South Carolina. The inauguration ceremonies took place with South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford. The Sprinter has been assembled and sold in the U.S. since 2001. The former plant in Gaffney, annual capacity around 22,000 units, no longer could cope with the growing sales. A production capacity of 32,000 units now is available at the new plant where 180 employees are working to reassemble the Sprinter on a 42,780 square meter (460,000 sq. ft.) site. $35 million was invested in the plant. The all-new Sprinter goes on sale this spring.
    March 27, 2007
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    You see those Sprinter vans everywhere now. Whoever thinks those are niche vans oughtta think again IMO.

    My "9-12 month" comment was based on the fact that Toyota NA has just come out with a fresh "mea culpa" regarding the bad crankshafts in the new Tundra, talking about how they are re-committing to a careful QC process, changing the way they do things, blah blah blah. All the same things they said last year, BEFORE the new Tundras had even begun to roll off the line. If they didn't make good on their words of last year with their most important new product launch in a decade, I think their credibility is at least a little suspect. They need to stop talking the talk and start walking the walk POST HASTE, seems to me.

    I am a fan of Toyota in general terms, because I respect their business model. They show tremendous self-discipline in an industry where many players are going for the quick money or the maximum flash for minimum money. But in the least three years, this self-discipline has begun to show the stresses of a company experiencing tremendous growth, perhaps growth larger than it can handle.

    I have not passed judgment, far from it, but I won't wait TOO many years before I expect results. The folks who want to jump down Toyota's throat won't wait nearly that long, as is proved all too easily at Edmunds! Could Hyundai be eager to pounce? Oh yes, I think it could.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    talking the talk

    I think the mea culpas are part of fixing the problems. Lot of that is PR but some must be directed at the employees. But I agree that the Tundra roll-out hasn't helped, between the lack of crew cab models, the need for incentives and the camshaft failures. And it is a bit fun to pile on. :shades:
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    No question about the use and flexibility of the Sprinter.
    That said, you need to check out the full ine of utility vans (unlike minivans) Toyota makes, ie Hilux, Hiace, et al.
    Few of any of these are even available here, but in the rest of the world, Toyota and Mercedes are basically the only players, and Toyota seems to dominate the market world wide.
    At least we agree on the Sprinter as a niche vehicle.
    That could change though, with the intro of hybrid technology and the much higher operating costs of those bigger cube vans the courier companies often use now.
    From an economy/utility/value relationship, the Sprinter could become a player.
    If that happens, we would probably see Toyo utility vehicles more frequently here as a result. They are pretty economical vehicles and rugged as heck. The rest of the world sure likes them.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Remember, the reason the Sprinter is relatively narrow and upright is that's a European design - as was the VW Vanagon. They need to be with the European cities very narrow streets, especially in the older downtown areas. And when I mean old, some streets are based on Middle Ages period designs.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Tundra roll-out sure will help the bottom-line, AND Toyota's perception as a pushover in the truck market. :)

    The 2009 Ford and Dodge will definitely benchmark the Tundra.

    DrFill
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai has those types of vehicles as well, I believe. And so do other manufacturers as well.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The 2009 Ford and Dodge will definitely benchmark the Tundra.

    Not crash safety ratings and reliability issues :-)

    All jokes aside and with all due respect, this fanboy status has certainly gone way too far...back up what you are writing here, instead of just one sentence of another one of your unproven theories.

    I have actually been invited to preview the development of the next F Series. Trust me when I say this, Ford never stopped the development, even after the Tundra debuted.

    The Tundra is a capable pickup, no question, but let's not let that cloud your judgment.
  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    I've seen some really cool camperized versions also, which peaks my interest.
    The last one I saw featured in one of our local papers was $8O,OOO, but it was luxurious.
  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    I'm seeing more and more of them here on the West Coast of Canada. Our city Police use them as their paddy wagons. What I like about them is that you can stand up.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >Our city Police use them as their paddy wagons. What I like about them is that you can stand up.

    :surprise: You aren't meaning to say you've been in them used as paddy wagons and like them because you can stand up in the paddy wagon? ;) :confuse:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    Actually, I thought about that statement while I was typing.
    I'm really quite a Joe Citizen, keep my nose clean, and go about my business. I've never set one foot in a Sprinter, to tell you the truth. They do seem to make a lot of sense though, and I'm also seeing more than a few trades people using them for obvious reasons.
    We seem to have diverted from the Hy vs. Toy thread.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    That may have contributed to it, but the main point is their cars weren't selling very well.
    ___________________________
    gagrice wrote:
    It has been suggested by the pundits that one reason for Chrysler's slump in profits was due to the high costs of these projects.
    Go figure
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    Mediapusher, here are a couple of suggestions...............

    (1)Check again to see who the author of your quoted post was. Gagrice didn't write it. I did.

    (2)The Chrysler 300, the Dodge Ram Pickup, and their Minivan were doing quite well at the time. Chrysler sales overall were dropping, but not quite as badly percentagewise as Ford or GM. Also,Chrysler was almost giving their products away--losses on every sale--to bolster sales.
    The main reason for MB dumping Chrysler was lack of profitability. I learned from a Chrysler exec that a big chunk of that was the development costs MB saddled them with--and another big chunk was losing money on almost every vehicle they sold. Those were the two principal contributers to the lack of fiscal performance which cinched MB's decision to sell.

    Needless to say, this has nothing to do with the forum topic, so I apologize for the diversion.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agreed with your post so let it slide. I also have a low level management friend in Chrysler Corporate and she said the same thing. Being off the topic may be good for a while.

    I did look at the new Elantra. Not much smaller than the Camry and priced same as the much smaller Corolla. It would be worth checking out for those undecided buyers.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    "I agreed with your post so let it slide"

    Just wanted to set the record straight.
    Us old guys tend to get confused, right?? ;)

    Now about this neverendum re Toyota "fearing" Hyundai, or visa versa--and the ongoing argument re who's model is better (or worse) than the other guy's.

    Re "fear".
    In business, to be successful, "fear" can't even be on your radar.
    Isofar as Toyota (or Hyundai) is concerned, neither of them looks at the other in "fear".
    Respect for the other guy...very likely. But no "fear".
    Never ignore the competition, and do your darndest to be better than them in all ways.
    But don't react out of "fear"..........a business will never be successful by reacting out of "fear"
    Truthfully, there's no "fear" from either carmaker's perspective.... if there was, it's a great recipe for failure.

    From a purely business viewpoint, I won't judge either side's models as any better or worse.
    They're all saddled with individual strengths and weaknesses.
    However, Toyota is way out in front in sales, production capacity, revenues, profitability, dealer network, and more
    ...all the key attributes to build on current successes.
    Hyundai falls way short in these attributes at this stage...not the least of which is production capacity.
    In order to sell cars you've got to be able to build 'em.
    It'll be a few years (if it happens) where Hyundai can ramp up production to Toyota's level, and that puts them in a much weaker position. Sad, but realistic.
    Furthermore, there can be a downside in ramping up production too quickly.
    Also, Toyota can outspend Hyundai in every area...that's another big handicap over the next few years.
    Last, but not necessarily least, Hyundai has to build it's image. It's a young player, and has some recent negative image issues to overcome...not an easy task.

    These are observations from a purely business perspective--merits of one make over or another are considerations in this neverendum, but at the end of the day the pillars of business must be in place going forward, and in this area Hyundai is way behind the other big players.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ok,
    We are pretty much on the same page here.

    Hyundai falls way short in these attributes at this stage...not the least of which is production capacity.


    I think it will realistically take 10 years to build the capacity of Toyota, and maintain a good record for reliability. Lots of pitfalls along the route.

    Hyundai has to build it's image

    This is even bigger from where I stand. I showed my wife a very nice looking Azera in a parking lot. Her first remark was "I don't want anything with the name HYUNDAI". She really does not like anything that does not look like her LS400 or her even older Mercedes 300s. The slope fronted stink bug rear ends are not appealing to her at all. The only recent car she liked was the E350 we test drove.

    Those are two big obstacles in the game.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Yes, unfortunately perception is reality among herd-following people that don't trust their own ability to research.

    Hyundai is nearly equal or even surpasses Toyota on some aspects of quality, features, performance, warranty, and value. Instead of weighting the above highly, they rate past performance more highly. Instead of treating a car purchase as a research project, they treat it like they are playing poker. They ask themselves "Based on historical data, what are the odds that my car will not break down in 3, 5, or 10 years?" That kind of thinking will most likely work fairly well for Toyota, for now. Unfortunately, they are allowing the tail to wag the dog, and will miss out on some great values in the car industry.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    "Yes, unfortunately perception is reality among herd-following people that don't trust their own ability to research".

    Bobdad, you personally may not like nor agree with it, but "perception is reality" is a fact of life for all of us--I'll bet even you fall victim to that very common trait occasionally.
    The manner you have chosen to describe those who do fall victim to "perception is reality" clearly illustates that.
    I believe your condemnation of such a common characteristic as somehow being beneath one's intellect or ability is wrongfully marginalizing the vast majority of the human race.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    EVERYTHING I say can be proven. ;)

    Seen a recent F-150 commercial? How much do they tow, all of the sudden?

    The tail wags the dog. :surprise:

    If that tail is made by 'Yota.

    DrFill
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