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Comments
Very good news to us.
Great point. Instead of Hyundai's rise in quality giving Toyota owners ulcers, it should be making them happy. We should be rejoicing about the competition, and the better cars and prices that results.
My man Spyder comes off the bench at hits a Grand Slam to make it 9-1!
As Kristen Dunst would say: "I'm pulling rank. You can fall in line or not. If we're gonna be the best, we need to have the best. Toyota, and Spyder, are The Pooh, so take a big whiff!
Man, do I get tired of being right all the time. :surprise:
DrFill
As is painfully clear, Toyota doesn't need any more sales, and neither do I.
Just here spreading the gospel. To listen to a prayer now and again. See what I can see.
I see playa-hatin' people. :surprise:
DrFill
Not to be "playa-hatin'" (whatever that is), but here is a little article with many quotes right from the horse's mouth. While I do not expect it to temper your amazing amount of enthusiasm, I hope that it will at least give you some understanding that Toyota is just as fallible as any other car company, and no-one is more aware of that than Toyota officials (which is one of Toyota's strengths IMO).
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070625/FREE/70625001/1528/newsletter01
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My job is to try to balance out the multiple cheerleaders from Team Korea. Keep it real.
Toyota's humility and dedication to greatness only underscores their creed, and excellence.
I, on the other hand, am not as humble, but still pretty great! LOL! :P
Kinda wish GM and Ford had the same forethought oh.......20 years ago.
Ain't nothin' gonna break my stride, Nippon. Don't hate the player.....
DrFill
Overstatement of the century!!
------
Well, Doc, cheerleading contributes so little, and after a while it gets tiring. One begins to yearn for a more balanced view...
------
No question, Toyota has earned their benefit of the doubt, but Hyundai should get some benefits as well. Those are the reasons they have been pointed out from the majority here, and something you and a few others never wanting to admit. As mentioned many many times, most cars have gotten a lot better, so the difference between car A and car B has narrowed quite a bit.
Never said Toyota was perfect.
Wow, I wouldn't have known otherwise, coming from you.
My job is to try to balance out the multiple cheerleaders from Team Korea.
That's funny because the last time I checked, few here has an agenda and/or incentive to cheer for certain automaker. Most of us do post factual items, go out and test drive multiple cars, give honest opinion (strengths, weaknesses, etc). I am actually scheduled to have a ton of test drives for my job during the next few weeks, and I will be doing exactly that.
Chrysler officials did admit the Sebring and Nitro were misses...
This is newsworthy.
Definitely a step up from the Sonata is much better-looking than Camry and Altima rants I've been subject to. Factual and poignant stuff!
From reading your posts, you've missed the last several days worth of posts, and links. Made every effort to go around the truth.
Hyundai has gotten off the mat, and are producing some quality machines. That's great. But Ford and GM have similar records over the last 3-4 years.
That said, it looks like 20% of their cars are fleet. And it's easier to manage quality on 4-500k vehicles than when you are at 2.5 million, and rising 10% a year. It's like comparing A-Rod to Bobby Abreu.
And Toyota vehicles are not good, they are tremendous values. It's not about price, or looks, or quality. Toyota makes incredibly capable machines. They are driving the market where THEY want it to go.
They set the pace, and Hyundai has shown that they might be able to keep up. Which is commendable, because most really can't. :sick:
Only one problem. Hyundai still has to serve their penance for being "Get me done" car company, with "get me done" quality for many years.
If they do everything right, in 10 years, they could be above Nissan and Ford in this market. And Toyota might have reason to sweat. Maybe.
DrFill
Good try, but a very transparent.
The truth: Recently, there are 5 posters with extreme positions on the cars. They believe 1 maker can't do anything right, and the other can't do anything wrong. Of the 5, 4 are pro-Toyota, 1 is pro-Hyundai.
Which is why Ford owns 30-something percent of Mazda, Renault owns all of Nissan, and GM used to own controlling stakes in Suzuki, Subaru, and Isuzu.
You have you, Snake, Gagrice and Joe.
I have me, Goodegg, and Poncho. And Spyder is my Cecil Fielder off the bench.
Nippon can't decide what team he's on so.... :confuse: .
DrFill
Me, Snake, and Joe are Toyota AND Hyundai fans, but we don't go off the deep end about either.
DrFill
I don't believe I've said either for or against but even if someone else had came to that position, that's their opinion. What is there to argue?
This is newsworthy.
Newsworthy? Facts, are not? Who else here has an incentive/agenda to cheer for one particular maker here?
From reading your posts, you've missed the last several days worth of posts, and links. Made every effort to go around the truth.
Examples please, or are you talking to yourself again? I've lost count how many times you've dodged the topic after someone had responded to you, and then subsquently started a new rant.
What team am I on? The "let's keep the Hyundai club here grounded in the sales is everything reality" or the "Toyota is still the king of the mountain that knows how to sell great cars in huge numbers" one? Or both?
DrFill
What were they thinking with that Nitro? Ugly vehicles are starting to fall out of favor, and the Jeep Compass and pretty much the rest of the Jeep line-ups looks are getting old, dated. The Wrangler/CJ was one of the ugliest vehicles of all-time, but people got used to it and it grew on you like the VW Bug did.
In perception they are a tremendous value, but in reality there as good or better values out there. Toyota does have very good resale value that they worked hard to aquire, but others may even that out a little bit in the near future. Toyota is not alone by itself anymore, there are many companies that have caught up with them in recent years as far as quality. People are still living in the past if they think that they stand alone. Auto's are so good now-a-days that there is very little difference from one manufacture to another to speak of in the quality department. Hyundai looks to be a good value and there are several American cars-Impala, Cobalt, Lucerne, Focus, etc. that would fit in the good value for the money catagory.
Hey pal,your job is to sell overpriced not-outstanding cars to dumb public. :P
Yes, I understand that, but what I was saying was that doing business in Japan has a lot of political road blocks unlike what is given to Japanese companies that come here. Kind of a double standard don't you think; additionally, Japanese companies get 25% back on their investment when building here because of the weak dollar vs the yen.
small..
midsized..
large..
crossovers..
minivans.
Technology is not the sole province of one company or one country. This is especially true in today's world where much technology is exchanged or it's soon understood right after a product is launched.
But.. where Toyota really does outshine the rest is in market knowledge and marketing ( sales ) efficiency. Market knowledge discovers segments that didn't exist before and profits from them..
Crossovers...1995 RAV4 - Ford got its first crossover this year!!
Hybrids...1997 Prius - the rest of the world has been dragged kicking and screaming ( Ghosen ) into this century.
Youth-centered vehicles..Scions
The whole concept of a solid product line from $12000 all the way up to $40000+ with one segment supporting the one above it. ( Explanation upon request
Recognition that the midsized buying public has moved itself upscale. Many buyers class themselves in shopping by the price range they want to spend.
$18-20000
$20-22000
$22-26000
$25-30000
over $30000
Buyers look at 'their' price range and then try to get the most vehicle for the money in that range. They generally do not drop themselves down a 'class' or two.
It's one thing to throw very technologically capable vehicles out into the public but if they are targetted then they only find homes by chance. The rest end up as fleet fodder.
I'll go a little farther than that.
I actually believe that Toyota consciously helped move the buying public upscale. The tail almost wagged the dog. Think about it. As Toyota gained a loyal owner base because of reliability, they anticipated an increase in the thickness of their wallet and hips. They always seemed to have a new model ready, with increased luxury and size to suit the needs of their aging owner base. In other words, they not only exploited the existing market, but actually helped shape it. They did what they had to do to keep their buyer base from jumping off. Brilliant, actually.
The ole Toyota "Oh what a feeling". Hyundai can learn from that since they now have a steak that they can get to sizzle.
A later post adds another valid point. Hyundai may yet have to lead on some features not available on the competition, to earn a gold star as an innovator. But in fairness to Hyundai no one else so forcefully moved safety features out of luxury brands and into the typical family's budget range. Even Hyundai's smallest cars offer side curtain airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control and stability control, often as standard features. This focus on safety (reflected in Hyundai's recent very favorable crash ratings) did more to make certain competitors' cars obsolete than anyone else. Think of the pressure on Ford to update the Focus and the even the new Fusion. Similarly, while Hyundai didn't lead on variable valve timing it again drove the technology to a lower price point as an expected standard feature. Similarly, styling of the new Santa Fe is actually more refined and elegant than the Lexus to many observers, so competitors can't count on weird Korean styling being a con for Hyundai going forward.
Now I should also acknowledge that Toyota does a great job in covering the market with a wide range of options. They position themselves for market opportunity better than anyone else. It is not just the hybrid Prius, but when a segment gets hot, Toyota has a product to respond. The product segmentation with offerings across a wide market range is a real advantage for Toyota. It's easy to identify where certain others are always behind the market curve. Toyota rarely misses the mark.
Toyota may have a couple of slips this year. The Tundra pickup would have looked smarter before the recent surge in gas prices, but is a long-term commitment to a key volume segment in the US market. Several other 2008 Toyota or Scion models grew in weight and suffer from worse fuel efficiency than the outgoing versions. This is a bit of a misstep for Toyota (Scion). But Toyota has the market reputation for comparative advantage in fuel efficiency so I'm not sure how much it will hurt. Those most likely to notice are returning customers. Will that be enough to motivate them to look at other options, including Hyundai? I'm not sure given Toyota's brand loyalty.
Neither Hyundai or Toyota is perfectly good (nor are GM and Ford perfectly bad). But Hyundai is clearly stepping up to the first rank of brands in an unexpectedly short period of time. You've got to respect the results Hyundai is delivering. If I lean any direction it is to domestic U.S. brands (at least when all other things are equal), but Hyundai certainly has my attention in a way it didn't three years ago.
Toyota may have a couple of slips this year. The Tundra pickup would have looked smarter before the recent surge in gas prices, but is a long-term commitment to a key volume segment in the US market. Several other 2008 Toyota or Scion models grew in weight and suffer from worse fuel efficiency than the outgoing versions. This is a bit of a misstep for Toyota (Scion). But Toyota has the market reputation for comparative advantage in fuel efficiency so I'm not sure how much it will hurt. Those most likely to notice are returning customers. Will that be enough to motivate them to look at other options, including Hyundai? I'm not sure given Toyota's brand loyalty.
Neither Hyundai or Toyota is perfectly good (nor are GM and Ford perfectly bad). But Hyundai is clearly stepping up to the first rank of brands in an unexpectedly short period of time. You've got to respect the results Hyundai is delivering. If I lean any direction it is to domestic U.S. brands (at least when all other things are equal), but Hyundai certainly has my attention in a way it didn't three years ago.
In the name of value, it would be hard to find a vehicle that can provide what a $16k Scion xB can, for example.
And it appears the domestics are rather shocked at what the new Tundra can do.
Other companies would love to have such "missteps".
Selling a pick-up to Americans is always a smart business decision.
Three years ago we couldn't have had this forum.
R.I.P. Chris Benoit. I'll miss you. You were simply the best ever.
DrFill
Sorry nope not me, while I am defending Hyundai from your propaganda I have never said that Hyundai is always right and Toyota is always wrong. All I have been saying is that Toyota has nothing in their favor than their name. While they are good cars I can get just as good for less in a Hyundai so why go Toyota?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What are the demographics of Camry owners and Sonata owners? Age? Income? Debt? Education?
Someone on another forum mentioned that Sonata owners seem to be in surprisingly high income brackets. From casual chat and observation, he seems to be on to something. Is this info(formal or informal)available somewhere?
I think it's a little on the fringes, but pertinent to the topic. Hyundai may know something about us that they can use against Toyota, or vice versa.
Probably true and I would not be surprised one bit.
Well considering that 17.24% of households make over $100K lets say that marks the high income bracket
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think it is true. If you have a tight budget you don't want to make a mistake especially when you buy a car so people go to safe bet (Honda, Toyota). However if you have plenty to spend, you try something new.
Yea - I'd agree with that. Gotta admit myself into this aforementioned bracket. And yes - I'm pondering something new for late 2008. The Genesis.
I actually agree that the new Tundra is pretty impressive. I'd give it the nod for the best drive trains in the category. The crew max cab is an example of that market segmentation skill and advantage that is a real Toyota strength. Chevy wins the interior styling based upon most reviews and I think is more successful in exterior styling, especially from the front. The Tundra is unquestionably competitive in a way past Toyota full-size efforts were not. But the timing of the Tundra was not Toyota's usual perfection. Those class leading engines are necessarily fuel hungry, and detracted from Toyota's green reputation, earning demerits from a lot of Toyota fans. Fair or not, controllable or not, the timing caught a truck market in decline rather than ascendency and thus was an illustration that even Toyota is not perfect in timing.
But I still agree with DrFill on this point -- a competitive full-size pickup is still a smart business decision for a full line manufacturer. You can't leave the competition a "safe" base. So while the timing was unfortunate or a slip, it was still a necessary step. It puts a lot of pressure on Ford to deliver a new F150 and Dodge and Nissan have to find a new way to standout.
And I still think the new xB will disappoint some fans of the original by being heavier and less fuel efficient in a market in which many will look first to Toyota when efficiency is the priority. Even though the new xB is apparently a better all around car it is no longer so unique. By moving upscale (literally) it has new and different competition. I like the new xB a lot more than the original, but the changes force a prudent buyer to at least cross shop the new xB with some other tall wagons like the HHR when the prior version had no direct comparison. (Similarities to the HHR? Price, 2.4l engine, tall wagon interior seating and space, and more. . .) I'm just not sure all of the original fans of the xB will find the same set of virtues in the new larger version. And while critiquing the xB (not the same as criticizing) I should also point out the brilliance of the entire Scion brand and its youth-focused marketing. Scion is another illustration of that terrific Toyota market segmentation. Business school professors love Toyota.
For some reason I can be more enthusiastic about Toyota as a well-run business than I can be passionate about most of Toyota's individual products. There's a paradox in there somewhere. A great company that does so much well still doesn't have a reputation for passion inspiring cars. Prudent cars? Yes. Passion? Not so much. Just think how dangerous Toyota would be if it could do all it does well now and instilled some passion in styling and driving. Then Hyundai and everyone else would be sweating bullets. I suspect that the same culture that produces the reliable, prudent cars inherently breeds out the potential for passion. I'd really be curious what other people think about that paradox.
My adoration really multiplied when in June of '93 the Supra Turbo was unleashed. I'd never seen anything like it. I had a Toyota dealership less than a mile away from my Jackson Heights apt. I would walk the dog by the Supra in the showroom nightly. Power and beauty.
Apparently, the critics agreed, and all who sampled it fell under it's spell.
But, as the Celica All-Trac and MR2 Turbo underscored, people don't got to Toyota to buy sports cars. Increasingly stringent emissions tests, a saturated market, an recently redesigned national icon, a hollow link to the short-lived fame of the '67 Toyota 2000GT, and a particularly low ROI caused the legend that was Supra to end it's stay with us, at least, in the real world. The legend has lived on in the virtual gaming world, as it is a popular vehicle for virtual racers.
Strangely, Toyota started investing, heavily, in another low ROI endeavor, one that was SURE to lose money, the 1998 Prius in Japan. With Synergy Drive now in it's 4th generation, Toyota is finally starting to see the fruits of it's labor. They took a step back to take two forward.
Coincidentally, the 4th generation (MKIV) Supra was the last Supra, and maybe considered the best sports car of the 90's. It will produce nothing but daisies.
Toyota will leave the niches to the niche automakers.
They can make the best sports car, this side of a Ferrari, but the market would reject it. :lemon:
Sometimes being the best isn't good enough.
DrFill
Weird isn't it? I feel the same way. Yet if all you're looking for is well-made transportation that will last a long time if you need it to, Toyota is a good way to go. Ergos are good, fuel economy is good, and resale is good if you need it to be. And there is a reason that all of the automotive world has been studying Toyota's business practices for more than a decade now, even as they pointedly did NOT mimic its product offerings (well with one or two GM exceptions along the way). The funny thing about Hyundai is it seems to be doing exactly the opposite, shutting out collaboration with Toyota at the business level yet trying to mimic its product line, or at least its general design principles.
But if Hyundai had even 50% of the marketing and business acumen that Toyota does, they would have surpassed all the competition long ago in sales and reputation and be neck and neck with Toyota and Honda by now.
Which is not to put Hyundai down, but rather in fact to praise its product line. The Japanese have been exporting to the States a lot longer and in much higher volume than the Koreans. Hyundai can study the masters - GM and Toyota - and fashion a flawless PR department and marketing/design team that will rock the automotive world over the next decade.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But I still agree with DrFill on this point -- a competitive full-size pickup is still a smart business decision for a full line manufacturer. You can't leave the competition a "safe" base. So while the timing was unfortunate or a slip, it was still a necessary step. It puts a lot of pressure on Ford to deliver a new F150 and Dodge and Nissan have to find a new way to standout.
They did say last year that this Tundra was their biggest risk - ever - even bigger than the Lexus launch. The Tundra, this version, was planned back in 99 or 2000 just after the initial launch. Who knew at that time about Sept 11th, Iraq, Katrina, etc. Once the wheels were put in motion it's a roll of the dice that determines the particular environment the vehicle will arrive in. Were you a pre-WWII baby? A child of the 60's? A Gen Xer? Now it's just a matter of dealing with the environment in which you've arrived.
That being said there is this subtle segmentation of the truck market that offers some cushioning. The stated goal is 200K units initially. The total large truck market is about 2.3 Million units. Maybe one third to 40% ( 750,000 units ) are heavy duty trucks and diesels. Toyota doesn't compete - yet. Maybe one third of the trucks are fleet vehicles ( again 750,000 units ) but these are very very basic trucks and very very low margin sales. By the initial pricing and production Toyota seems to be passing on this subsegment as well. That leaves about one third or again about 750,000 units which I'll call 'retail sales'. These are the individual contractors and sportsmen and just plain truck guys that like an Ext Cab or Crew Cab with a V8 and normally 4WD capability. But as opposed to the fleet sales this is the sweet spot. The goal of all the advertising ( watch it ) from every maker. This is the land of the $10000 to $20000 profit per unit!!! In this subsegment Toyota is looking to sell at least 180,000 units out of an estimate ( mine ) of 750,000 total units. That's 25% of this market. But it's a subsegment with a huge cushion. It also one the domestic makers desperately need to defend.
Marketing....
And I still think the new xB will disappoint some fans of the original by being heavier and less fuel efficient in a market in which many will look first to Toyota when efficiency is the priority. Even though the new xB is apparently a better all around car it is no longer so unique. By moving upscale (literally) it has new and different competition. I like the new xB a lot more than the original, but the changes force a prudent buyer to at least cross shop the new xB with some other tall wagons like the HHR when the prior version had no direct comparison. (Similarities to the HHR? Price, 2.4l engine, tall wagon interior seating and space, and more. . .) I'm just not sure all of the original fans of the xB will find the same set of virtues in the new larger version. And while critiquing the xB (not the same as criticizing) I should also point out the brilliance of the entire Scion brand and its youth-focused marketing. Scion is another illustration of that terrific Toyota market segmentation. Business school professors love Toyota.
Yes this new xB is appealing to an entirely different group. It is very much a competitor of the HHR as you note. I also think it's the long lost offspring of the Camry station wagon. It really feels like a Camry wagon. It still may be unique enough to appeal to the urban independents like the original was but now it is squarely aimed at the non-SUV-but-still-need-a-utility-vehicle buyer which is a much larger market segment.
Also 20 y.o. buyers grow up and have new requirements, more room, nicer ride, nicer amenities. Pretty soon they'll be 30.
For some reason I can be more enthusiastic about Toyota as a well-run business than I can be passionate about most of Toyota's individual products. There's a paradox in there somewhere. A great company that does so much well still doesn't have a reputation for passion inspiring cars. Prudent cars? Yes. Passion? Not so much. Just think how dangerous Toyota would be if it could do all it does well now and instilled some passion in styling and driving. Then Hyundai and everyone else would be sweating bullets. I suspect that the same culture that produces the reliable, prudent cars inherently breeds out the potential for passion. I'd really be curious what other people think about that paradox.
Well put. This is what annoys many detractors too. The makers of wonderful, stylish, exciting midsized autos seem to throw themselves at this wall of blandness and don't make any headway at all. In fact they are losing ground comparitively according to the differences in retail purchases.
Why?
Again my opinion only, except for those in the industry and a small segment of enthusiasts most people hate to drive. A vehicle while exciting at first quickly becomes boring ( note the too-soon trading habits ) and then becomes a constant drain on income. If the vehicle has any problems at all it's a major annoyance and possibly a near catastrophe. I think that buyers realize that this 2nd or 3rd largest purchase they ever will make is worthless in 12-15 years. So, I as a buyer should be excited about this? And I should be excited about the whole dealership buying experience? And I may have to worry down the road about this huge expense costing me even HUGER expenses
All I want is to turn the damn thing on every day for 10 years and forget about it. Don't leave my wife and kids stranded somewhere. Don't suck me dry. I hate traffic, my commute is horrible and now I have to put $50 - $100 into this beast every single week - and then insure it. This is the majority of the buying public. And for whatever reason they have 2-3 of these beasts in their driveway.
Blandness could be seen as a blessed relief. All I want in a hammer is that it pound nails and not break off in my hand.
Marketing knowledge... Toyota and Honda and Nissan and now Hyundai have recognized this characteristic and provide products that meet the needs. This is the center of the bell curve in the population. It's also where all the volume is located. Any other product appeals to marginal subzegments with decreasing volumes.
Now, with the case of the Tc, I do see a lot of younger people driving these.
Toyota's are apparently designed to please their well-heeled board members rather than our more adventurous American car enthusiasts.
I don't know how typical I am for my demographic, but to be honest, not many vehicles raise my passions. Maybe the Evil Weevil, maybe the Ford GT, or maybe a BMW 5 series would get my juices flowing. I confess that Toyota's offerings suit me fine.
The first auto maker to field a mid size diesel pickup will get a fist full of my duckies, providing their reliability promises to be high. I think there's a good market there.
LOL
Been there. Drove a cab based out of Jackson Heights.
I got shot outside of there too, but that's another story, for another day.
They only had room for 3 vehicles, and when the Summer of '93 hit, a Black, be-spoilered Turbo was front and center, all season long.
Another reason I have disdain for the Hyundai campaigns, toungue-in-cheek or not, is because after the Supra had tired of beating the RX-7, 300Z, and even 'Vette ZR-1s, in test after test, R&T did a virtual test against the Ferrari 512T and 911 Turbo.
It wasn't a real serious comparison at the time.
But this Veracruz vs RX350 is a joke that is no longer funny, as Hyundai is trying to run with it. Two vehicles never a shopping list shall meet.
I guess the Supra was better than a 911 Turbo, back in the day, ipso factso. :surprise:
DrFill
I mean you were better for a second there, and now you are back to your old self again...
How is it a joke? I don't understand...
I've driven both CUVs extensively, and I can tell you the Veracruz is up to snuff with the RX. Is RX a good CUV? Yes. Is Veracruz a good CUV? Yes, as hard as that might be for you to believe. Dare I say the saddle leather seating option is one of the best out there? Easily!!
FWIW, I just met a couple recently traded their RX for a Veracruz.
Let me ask you, when was the last time you drove a Hyundai vehicle?
;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is not the appropriate forum to discuss sports cars, but I just had to reply to this comment by DrFill. I have two very good friends who own recent model Ferraris, and also own recent model Porsches. Both firmly believe that the Porsche is the superior sports car, and this is based on their direct experience with both.
That's me! A couple of more points - Don't make it glitzy or exciting so the teenagers might want to steal it. Don't add so many features that I need to read a 300 page manual to figure out how to drive it/operate all the automatic stuff.