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When you skip steps in the process, that's where you lose the sales. Speed kills in the car business.
We've established this before...sales do not solely contribute to the success of a product, of a company. There are so many factors need to be taken into account the success, failure and everything in between.
"Speed kills in the car business" - so now Hyundai is getting penalize for moving too fast? Funny I have a feeling double standards would have applied regardless whether Hyundai is continuing on the move, or being stagnant and remained as a small player in the industry.
What steps have Hyundai skipped? The way I see it, as far as making inroads into the US market, Hyundai is playing Toyota's game, at a quicker and arguably better pace.
Regarding the first part of your post. Product-wise, Hyundai has the goods to compete. Image-wise, it's still below those of Honda/Toyota, but we know it doesn't take overnight to overcome, and the gap is being narrowed quickly. I feel current products like the Azera, Veracruz, upcoming products like the BH RWD sedan, Tib RWD sports coupe, and others are continuing and will continue to turn even more heads and make a non-believer into one. I certainly have changed my perception of the brand.
I don't know if you are old enough, but it took Toyota a long long time to become established in the US. Did they get the shaft back in the day? Of course. The same way I never doubted Toyota then has me believe doubting Hyundai would be a huge mistake.
Again I don't want to hear your sales report. A 30 year head start would be one of main reasons why...
GM is back for sure!!
Hyundai is where Toyota was approx. 20-25 years ago, before Lexus, but when they were building Cressida, and the first 4Runners and Camrys.
I'm not saying Hyundai can't get onto the same shopping lists as Hondas and Toyotas. But it is still considered a risk.
Time will tell if that risk will lift away. And the "It's all I can afford" image.
All you can do is build the best vehicles you can, and hope people tell their friends and neighbors good stories, and build a word-of-mouth, better ads than what Hyundai has been putting out.
BTW, I saw a movie trailer/Hyundai ad, where they just talked about their cars, and recent awards won. One of the best Hyundai ads going.
Building the Hyundai brand, not cutting down trees that don't fall, like BMW and Toyota, is definitely a "Smart Move".
DrFill
For those who claim to drive one car into the ground, you have some argument. This is a small market percentage, doh.
Then we should also look into $$$ saved upfront. Wouldn't you think? Let's say we put those savings (part or whole) into a CD or some kind of investment, and get an attractive return after X amount of years into the ownership period.
Or for those leasing like me, I don't really mind a lot of things if I were owning the car.
Fuel economy is not going to play a big difference unless we are comparing an Insight to a Bugatti. Plus Hyundai is not that far behind Toyota in F/E, as other posters presented.
Resale value is something Hyundai needs to work on, and I believe they are improving, thought will take time.
Cost of ownership is actually similar between Toyota and Hyundai, I think. I am not an expert or anything but I've used TCO on Edmunds here and Hyundai was actually favored in a good amount of the cases - mostly due to the lower sticker, I would imagine.
I'm not saying Hyundai can't get onto the same shopping lists as Hondas and Toyotas. But it is still considered a risk.
Time will tell if that risk will lift away. And the "It's all I can afford" image.
All you can do is build the best vehicles you can, and hope people tell their friends and neighbors good stories, and build a word-of-mouth, better ads than what Hyundai has been putting out.
I tend to think Hyundai is a lot less than 20-25 years. Based on the chatting around the industry, that seems to be the case.
Hyundai is already on the shopping list of many Toyota/Honda perspective buyers. That is a fact. There are a lot of cross-shopping being done.
I do agree with this sentence you posted,
"All you can do is build the best vehicles you can, and hope people tell their friends and neighbors good stories, and build a word-of-mouth,"
This applies to almost every automaker, including Hyundai and Toyota. I remember you said that on the Tundra.
However, this needs to be clarified,
"better ads than what Hyundai has been putting out."
If you are referring to its most recent "Smart" ads, then one needs to have some sense of humor when looking at its comparisons to LR3, 525i, and LS
"Building the Hyundai brand, not cutting down trees that don't fall, like BMW and Toyota, is definitely a "Smart Move"."
I believe that's what Hyundai has been doing, and continues to be...
Just in case I sound like a Hyundai cheerleader, I'm not pulling for Hyundai at all. I can easily see that you don't have a dog in this hunt either. Not being brand loyal gives us a huge advantage at buying time. It allows one to think clearly, and to concentrate on tangible positives and negatives, not loyalties. After all, there's almost zero chance that a car maker would ever be loyal to us. They all just want our bucks, and I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just business.
Actually, I'm pulling for Chrysler, Ford, and GM. I hope my next car and pickup can be 1 of them. I don't heavily weight my choice toward the domestics, but it could easily be a tie breaker.
DrFill: I think Hyundai's quality is acceptably close to Toyota's in the minds of many. I think Hyundai was rarely on the list of cars to be considered 2 years ago, but are on many lists today. I think there is a "tipping point" at which name recognition, and perceived quality make a product acceptable to the masses. I think Hyundai is much closer to that point than you realize. WRT jumping over Nissan, Mazda, and others, why waste time with them? If you want to be the best you must beat the best. Yes, I imagine it's demeaning that #9 compares their cars to #1, but you shouldn't take it personally. It's just business.
Let's look at that, shall we? Let's see now, Hyundai is a company that is 20-25 years behind Toyota. But this company that is a quarter of a century behind Toyota:
* Has reached or exceeded current Toyota's level of quality--not their 1982 level of quality, but today's.
* Has received critical acclaim for having several vehicles in their lineup that are the critic's choice over comparable Toyota models--not 1982 models, but today's models.
* Has exceeded Toyota in recognition by the IIHS for meeting the highest level of safety: Hyundai/Kia 3 vehicles, Toyota 0.
* Has managed to maintain its sales numbers for the past 3 years while raising its out-the-door prices about 20% over that time, due to increase prices and reduced incentives.
And this is from a company that is 20-25 years behind Toyota! What does that say about Toyota? No wonder some people think Toyota fears Hyundai!
The Sonata V6 is 1 MPG less than the Camry (EPA estimate for 2007) which is essentially the same. For 2008 the EPA estimate for the Sonata is dead on to the Camry for 2007 (the EPA website doesn't have the 2008 estimates for the Camry).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Really? As for fuel economy they are pretty much the same. For resale value goes Toyota has higher resale values but they cost more to begin with so there is no gain in the higher resale value. Yep the Sonata is a better value considering that you get more for it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Americans should worry about GM, before worrying about Toyota.
http://www.intellichoice.com/press/2007-best-overall-car-value
Or check with your insurance agent on insurance rates of Corollas vs Elantra, not to mention fuel economy and depreciation.
You'll save some up front, but the Toyota more than makes up for it over time.
DrFill
Then they wanted to move upmarket. And they did, without much resistance.
You bring up these crash and quality tests of recent. Ford is just as well.
So I guess Ford and Hyundai the best companies in America, yes?
Consistency, brand image, sales increases, resale value, marketing. These are the things Hyundai lags in. That's what I'm talking about.
Hyundai has won some recent awards. I congratulate them.
Give me 10 years, or 20 push-ups.
DrFill
Oh really. A higher percentage of a higher number (Toyota) is always a lot more than a lower percentage of a lower number (Hyundai) in my book.
As for fuel economy I will repeat myself they are essentially the same.
As for depreciation the Camry does not have it over the Sonata. Sure you can get more for it in resale but you pay for that up front.
I will give you an example the Toyota that is comparable to my Hyundai has a value of $3,602 (private party sale in above average condition per Edmunds) and my Hyundai has a value of $396 (Dealer trade in value in poor condition per Edmunds). Now I am using private party sale in above average condition for the Toyota to give the Toyota a high price and the trade in value in poor condition for the Hyundai to give the Hyundai a low price to create an even bigger spread. Using that you have a difference of $3,206. But the Toyota would have cost me about $2,500 to $3,000 more those 8 years ago. Now 2,500 adjusted for inflation is right around $3,200 so there is no gain there.
Now if I compare apples to apples and say that the Hyundai is a private party sale in above average condition the difference is now only $1,190, much less than the (at least) $2,500 difference in sales price. Or if I make the Toyota a trade in in poor condition we have a difference of only $774.
So much for resale value. Toyota doesn't make up for it over time.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes really compare the actual dollar amount that the cars lose in value. Then adjust it for the time value of money.
In my example above I would have paid at least $2,500 more for a car that would be worth at best $1,200 more today. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Over a 10 year period, I should come out about 2K to the good with my 06 Sonata over a lesser-equipped 06 Camry. Put that in your book.*
*Mr. Timmons in "Dances With Wolves".
You keep mentioning the car that put Toyota into the big leagues, the Cressida. Dropping that to build the ES250 was the beginning of a long down hill slide. The current Camry/ES350 are just appliances with a good reputation for reliability. As that reputation is eroded by cheap interiors, rattles, squeaks and failing transmissions, what is left? A company that looks a lot like GM did a few years ago. Thinking that you are invulnerable as your posts lead me to believe, is a further sign of the coming fall. If Hyundai keeps their nose to the grindstone and does not get too carried away with numbers as Toyota has, they will be in a good position to pick up disgruntled ToyLex customers.
10 years? I'm not gonna keep a car that long, and 90% of others don't. Don't want a 10 year old car in my book. Nope.
Rather buy something new every 3-5 years when the new models come out (like an 08 Accord) and not worry about my trade being heckled, like a 5 year old Hyundai.
Like there won't be any disgruntled Hyundai customers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Lets talk minivans, for a change
I am no Toyota lover, but Hyundai has to innovate new stuff too, rather than just copying stuff from other brands and selling them cheap. Examples: (1) Adaptive Cruise Control, (2) HID headlights. Sienna has them, Entourage or Odyssey do not. Yes, you pay more for those gadgets/toys, but they give Toyota a technological edge, and more bragging rights for owners.
Instead of copying Toyota/Lexus (I think Hyundai will do those 2 in a few years), they can channel their effort in something else - e.g., (1) Make 19" standard wheels (2) Make a large sunroof, bigger than the X5 (3) Develop a soundproof but transparent screen behind the 1st row (4) Use rain AND speed sensitive wipers (5) Have the outside mirrors tilt down in reverse.... I am sure (a) People will pay for these, and (b) Hyundai can brag about how their minivans are better in feature list than Toyota/Honda.
I went to test drive an Odyssey yesterday, and asked them if they could install HID headlights. The response - "Oh no, we can not. Those lights are for the upscale luxury segments only, you see them in Lexus and BMW and the like". To me, they just put the Sienna on that upscale/luxury pedestal. Hyundai should be able to exploit such gaps.
Toyota's, nor Lexus', reputation has "eroded". Sorry to brake the news to you.
Comparing Toyota to GM is also not a stretch, it's just a joke.
People want all three of our brands. They sell, and sell for good profit at that.
And why can't mighty Hyundai pick up the "disgruntled" Toyota people right now? I need an excuse for that. I thought Hyundai was like better than Toyota and stuff anyway?
Excuse me, Hyundai and Ford. They are the best. Don't want to forget anybody. :sick:
I guess what I'm sayin' is.....huh? :confuse:
DrFill
Could you move about 150 miles?
DrFill
They'll both be worth less than $1000 (Although I've seen Highlanders with 100k+ miles get over $10k trade-in, but we'll put that aside for the moment).
If you want to drive a Hyundai 15 years to prove a point, please be my guest.
I guess that's why Hyundai sales don't go up. Owners are waiting 15 years to get their value.
"Smart Move"
DrFill
Actually, the person who says that Toyota fears (not will fear--fears) Hyundai is not Korean, but Japanese. Specifically, the CEO of Toyota Japan:
A few months ago an American interviewer asked the CEO of Toyota Japan from which company he expected the biggest challenge in the future; Ford or General Motors? "Neither," replied the Toyota boss. "The company I fear the most is Hyundai."
Note that it's not just "fear"--it's fear more than any other company.
http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=820&fArticleId=3419566
My man Jim wouldn't say that.
DrFill
If lagging in consistency means that Hyundai doesn't have the steady downward decline in quality that Toyota has experienced (documented in the JD Power studies) over the past four years, then I don't think consistency is all that it's cracked up to be.
Certainly Hyundai lags in brand image--Toyota has had 30 more years to build its brand image. As for marketing, can we give Hyundai's marketing any credit at all for their five-fold increase in sales in a seven-year period? Of for keeping their sales numbers steady while the company absorbed a 20% real-world price increase? Or for garnering good sales and critical acclaim for their two new near-luxury vehicles, Azera and Veracruz? Or for increasing sales of the Sonata considerably compared to the prior generation? Or for doubling sales of the Santa Fe compared to the prior generation? Or for changing the image of the company in just a few years from a laughing stock to a respected competitor of the world's largest car company, such that even the CEO of Toyota Japan fears Hyundai more than any other company? No, I suppose you wouldn't give Hyundai's marketing any credit for any of that. It all happened through osmosis, right?
At least now you have ratcheted back your unsupportable statement that Hyundai is 20-25 years behind Toyota to only 10 years. How about backing that assertion up with some facts as to why Hyundai is 10 years behind Toyota?
Please move it back to 20-25 years. That is definitely accurate.
Oh.....I see where you get confused.
Give me 10 years, or 20 push-ups.
That's assuming you can do all of the above, PLUS make ONE SUCCESSFUL spin-off brand, like Toyota did around 20 years ago.
I don't think they can do it. At least, not up to Toyota's standards. They could be the next Nissan, doh.
But it's up to Hyundai how long it will take, and how long it will take to catch up.
Good luck, and Good Night.
DrFill
I do agree that you are probably trippin'.
There have been several things that have tarnished Toyotas image and I know more than one Toyota fan who isn't as in love with the brand now because of it.
And why can't mighty Hyundai pick up the "disgruntled" Toyota people right now?
They can I know an ex-Rav4 owner who is now a Santa Fe owner, I know a few Toyota owners that are seriously thinking of buying a Hyundai when they swap out their cars.
Comparing Toyota to GM is also not a stretch, it's just a joke.
Yep, and Apple laughed at Windows.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Ok first you say that Hyundai is less expensive in the short run but Toyota is a better value in the long run and now you are saying that it takes a while for Hyundai to be a better value. Can't you make up your mind? Are you just saying anything to bash Hyundai? Are you that afraid of Hyundai?
The Hyundai is a better value up front because it gives more for less and down the line because while it doesn't get as much at resale it is still within the price difference at the time when it was new.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hyundai did fix the Santa Fe and the Elantra tho. Toyota has to rework the Corolla and lance the boil off the Camry grill. Women buy half (or more) of the cars today. They aren't shopping specifications as heavy as everybody here does.
Toyota eye candy? Now you've got me laughing. I can tell you most Toyota owners did not buy their cars based on looks alone but rather in areas where Toyota does well, for the most part. I can also tell you neither Toyota nor Hyundai sell on eye candy products (or lack thereof) and neither need do, especially Toyota.
Hyundai's biggest obstacle (problem) is NOT its looks on the lineup.
In all fairness, minivans are marketed and sold mostly on their practicability, and safety (especially nowadays where it's a big ticketed item on the shopping preference). I understand where you are coming from but we are just car enthusiasts in the minority. Consumers as a whole opting for these items are very small (i.e. less than 8% of all buyers opted for the factory navigation option). Again, I am in agreement with you on a personal level.
They'll both be worth less than $1000 (Although I've seen Highlanders with 100k+ miles get over $10k trade-in, but we'll put that aside for the moment).
If you want to drive a Hyundai 15 years to prove a point, please be my guest.
I guess that's why Hyundai sales don't go up. Owners are waiting 15 years to get their value.
I am confused - what point were you trying to make?
Let me understand this clearly, what you are saying, Hyundai owners keep their cars too long, so their sales are lagging. Wow, that makes so much sense.
Actually, the point you did prove inadvertently - Hyundai cars are reliable.
GM is on the comeback, Ford is making progress, Nissan has turned around, same for Hyundai/Kia. In these days, most products are good and the gap is certainly not as wide as some posts here suggest. Consumers win!!!
Your kidding right? Toyota has the most bland line up around.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nope - Hyundai is pretty bad. Toyota's not great, but better than Toyota. Nissan's getting spicy. The Altima coupe is beautiful.
And "your" should be "you're".
Yea - but a light bulb hanging from a wire is reliable, but most people want a lamp.
You are probably right about comparing GM to Toyota. That is giving Toyota way too much credit.
In spite of your lack of wisdom when it comes to evaluating the competition, you are good for a laugh.
PS
My aunt just bought a Sonata after driving her daughter's 2007 Camry. You will be seeing more losses to Hyundai as they are able to add capacity.
That sucking noise you hear is your loss of sales as the buying public wises up.
How's that again?
A little tip, don't point out errors in someone elses post in the same post you make an error in. :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Styling is purely subjective, but here's my take:
Tiburon vs. tC - Tiburon by a wide margin.
Accent vs. Yaris - Accent sedan is more mature/upscale looking to me than Yaris; Yaris coupe is a little too cutesy for my taste, so I prefer the sportier Accent hatch especially the SE.
Elantra vs. Corolla - Elantra by a wide margin--far more adventurous than the Corolla with its swoopier roofline and side sculpting. Rumors are that the next Ccrolla will look like a little Camry. Good news--for Hyundai.
Elantra wagon vs. Matrix - No contest against current Matrix, Elantra wins; Round 2 when new Matrix debuts.
Sonata vs. Camry - Sonata is much more buttoned-down and tasteful than Camry; more like an Audi vs. a Yaris with a really bad food allergy.
Azera vs. Avalon - Some may prefer the boxy look of the Avalon, but I much prefer the sweeping lines of the Azera.
Tucson vs. n/a.
Santa Fe vs. RAV4 - Santa Fe is more macho than RAV4 without geeting too weird, like the Gen 1 Santa Fe did.
Veracruz vs. Highlander - Only a fair comparison (for Toyota) if it's Veracruz vs. RX350, and then I prefer the cleaner lines of the Veracruz--too many window pillars in the RX for one thing.
Entourage vs. Sienna - The Entourage is OK but too chunky for my taste; the Sienna and Quest are now the only minivans that doesn't look like two boxes on wheels (with the Chrysler vans going Boxster for '08).
And don't forget the Genesis concept... better styling than anything Toyota has today.
Right...how does that punch line go again?
Clarification - the two buts: does one negate the other?
(2007 Toyota Camry Problems and Repairs
E.g., "They also told me that if I do not get it done in the toyota service I cannot make any claim if the trunk gets rusty in the future due to the damage on the paint the defect has caused."
Hyundai does better with each car they sell. I've said often regression to the mean is occurring for accord and camry starting in 2003. No amount of spin doctoring worthy of a presidential primary race can change reality. drfill needs to spend some time in
2007 Toyota Camry Problems and Repairs with his explanations to the people who actually have the midline Toyota product.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,