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It's not just that. There are several manufactures that have cars as good or in some cases better than Toyota but alot of peoples minds are already set before they buy. It's almost as though when Toyota produces a vehicle that has known problems people don't care or don't believe it. The competition is catching up fast.
Mr. Smith has a modest home with a fixed rate mortgage, wears clothes from Target, plays golf on a public course, and drives a paid-for Sonata.
DrFill
DrFill
DrFill
Lease specials are incentives nontheless, contrary to your no incentive statement. And cash back I mentioned in my area are not finance incentives.
Not worth mentioning? Our discussions are not focused just in your area so it's fair game from my POV.
DrFill
And Toyota is pushing the Highlander not-so-gently, now that the new one is about to arrive. $1500 cash back to clear out the last of the '07s. For Toyota, that is not a gentle nudge, that is a swift kick in the butt! And the 5-year-old HL STILL has a nicer interior than the much newer RAV4. If I were looking for V-6 AWD, I would probably go for the HL.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Why does Toyota worry so much about a change in American consumer sentiment against imports? A sudden surge of protectionism or pro-American sentiment would directly attack this "safe bet" advantage.
For now, Toyota has the reputation for reliability and consumer satisfaction that frankly was earned by years and years of largely boring but reliable, comparatively fuel efficient cars.
Hyundai is doing a lot right in design and manufacturing. On a model-by-model basis each new Hyundai (and Kia) is more and more competitive if not class leading at least on a value weighted scale. Hyundai has a reputation for value, but is not yet seen as a safe bet for the non-expert buyer, but it's getting closer. The non-expert car buyers are influenced (eventually) by opinion leaders and Hyundai is starting to accumulate serious credibility with opinion leaders. Given America's love of the underdog, Hyundai may be poised to become the safe alternative to Toyota.
Hyundai has the same potential fears as Toyota about protectionism and more specific fears about the political stability of the Korean peninsula. But barring a significant political shift or change in consumer sentiment against imports, Toyota should be worried about Hyundai's competitive momentum. Hyundai is laying the necessary groundwork to attack Toyota on both value and consumer perception as a "safe bet".
Here's the snap ring discussion:
tmsusa, "2007 Toyota Camry Transmission Gear Snap Ring Issue: TMSUSA Responds" #232, 5 May 2006 12:49 pm
The same Toyota rep (same user name anyway) started the sludge one:
tmsusa1, "Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response" #2, 3 Apr 2002 4:42 pm
We have a BMW factory rep participate from time to time and a Subaru rep was real active until she got promoted to another section of Subaru. There may be a few others but those are the ones that I know of. Kia's upper management has participated in our chats more than any other manufacturer.
I don't see how having a factory rep participate on the forum is a bad thing - it may be good PR for the company and may be an attempt to avoid a recall, but the info and hopefully a fix is still getting to the consumer.
Sales reps can be another matter but you can usually sniff out the guerilla marketing efforts and separate those from people who are genuinely enthusiastic about their product.
I agree. It is a proactive move and consumer friendly, somewhat. It's if the presence is meant to handle and reduce knowledge or reduce sensed importance of a problem by what is said and done.
Oddly the snap ring errors were small in number, at least as stated by Toyo. The camshafts that were bad are limited in number, at least as stated by Toyo (20?). I don't know as a fact if the numbers are smaller or larger. I also find it interesting that a problem with the transmissions was surfacing at the same time as the snap ring erroneous installations were being "handled."
I wasn't aware the TMSUSA was also in the sludge forum. But that was long after the issue was public knowledge among gurus like those folk on Edmunds that the group started.
>you can usually sniff out the guerilla marketing efforts
Agreed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota does offer nationwide incentives but one region or another doesn't have to take advantage of them. That region can offer a completely different incentive - or nothing at all. The reasoning is that each region has its own sales/inventory situation to balance.
If for example, Central Atlantic Toyota ( CAT ) has at the end of May a very low inventory-to-sales ration on the RAV with when it factors in the expected arrivals in June and the expected sales in June it might find that there is no reason to offer any incentive on the RAV at all.
In contrast Southeast Toyota ( SET ), which is a private company not a part of Toyota, charges all it's dealers a $565 'SET Administrative Fee' but it often gives it back to the buyers in the form of higher rebates or lower interest rates than say CAT. It doesn't always do this but often enough. If it's RAV inventory-to-sales at the end of May is relatively high and the SET planners sees too many new RAV's arriving in June it can offer significantly different incentives in N Carolina than those offered in Virgina 2 feet away.
Each region is run as a separate commercial business. Most are owned by Toyota but SET and GST are independent businesses. Even within the Toyota 'family' regional differences can occur. When Ohio and Upstate NY were buried last winter the Buffalo dealers lost an entire month's sales. The NY region had much larger incentives than than than what was being offered at CAT ( PA/NY border is the dividing line ) after the snow was cleared away.
Both fires seem to have been surrounded and put out with all affected parties very satisfied with the results and TMS's intervention and hand-holding.
The flares issues with the Avalons and Camrys and Lexus' are a performance issue which may or may not effect one vehicle or another. One owner's perfectly performing vehicle might be a problem in another's hands. Should the satisfied owners have their vehicles be brought in for adjustment? If you were happy with yours would you want someone messing with it because your neighbor had a difficulty? Not likely.
The only way to deal with a performance issue like this is on a case-by-case basis; then gather statistics to identify common dissatisfactions, then create solutions to solve each issue. This is apparently what has been done in this first year for those reporting dissatisfaction with the trannies. The problem was there and it affected many owners and solutions seem to have been found for those involved. But that's another forum.
Isn't that Bering brand using Dodge chassis'? If it's the one that im thinking of there is some other company (Avanti?) that will be using that chassis also. Autob--g said Hyundai was in talks with Navistar. My friends dad retired from International Harvester. They had almost every vehicle that IH made at one time or another. As much as three vehicles in the driveway including that groteque Travellel. They also had a 1960's pickup truck in the pasture that my friend eventually got painted and back on the road. All vehicles had the 345 ci engine.
The Mack Jr. that you are talking about I believe was made by RIO (Ransom I Olds).
This would be the case for any camshaft or rear-end axle, brakes, seats, and a lot of other parts. Automotive companies get most of their parts from suppliers, but a defect falls solely on the car company, simple as that. I don't recall any other car company putting the blame on a supplier, but I am sure Toyota is not alone.
I love my O2 Santa Fe. I always thought the styling was unique. Lots of other people obviouslyy liked it. But even more people like the look of the new Santa Fe, which IMHO is way more attractive than both the old SF the Veracruz. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....... But as long as we're on subjective aesthetics, Highlander = boring!
Ultimately, in my book, quality, reliability, features and value always trump the skin of the car. I suspect lots of people would agree.
That said, the snap ring issue was new to me; until you mentioned it I had never heard of it. Maybe defusing the issue early kept it off the general media's radar. The camshaft issue did get on my radar (probably heard about it in here first).
I know that International was talking about bringing back the Scout. Not sure how seriously they were talking about it but they were.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Toyota/Lexus product, so no one can accuse me of being "brainwashed" into believing Toyota/Lexus is the "God" of all automakers. But I did drive two Nissans in a ten-year period. Had great experiences with both of them, but I've got to say that the treatment by
the service departments of these two automakers is almost like night and day. At Nissan, at least in the last five years of my
ownership of a Nissan, the service reps were just not a very cheery group, would barely crack a smile much less speak to me. It's been a different story at Lexus. I'm amazed at how well I am treated and feel really comfortable when I go in for my oil changes.
As to my future vehicles, whatever that may be,
if Ford and GM build a car that I truly could like and would want to own, I would do it. I certainly wouldn't sit here and strike them down for no reason. Same for Hyundai. The
Veracruz and the Santa Fe are really nice-looking cars. I sat in both of them, and though I like the layout of the interiors on them, I still don't feel they're quite up there
with the Lexus interiors.
DrFill
I dunno.
Seems the rest of the numbers pretty much match, like the Prius 48/45.....( may be a little low, since I do know one owner, and even Edmunds has got a tank or more over 50MPG on their 04 Prius testing..long term).
I dunno. I don't write the stuff
I just report it.
They might have improved the Sonata MPG, but could the cars you mentioned, along with the Optima's 34MPG I-4, have all dropped so far,to be less than the Sonata :confuse:
I guess they should state, like they used to say "your mileage may very"?
I also noticed the Versa drops 5 MPG, and Yaris about 4-5MPG? Corolla is 37MPG according to this.
Are these figures accurate? I dunno. But they are going on MPG listings on cars soon, for 08, it appears...and I guess the makers could tout this (govt MPG) on ads.....so, when will Hyundai say" best MPG large sized sedan" on tv, or print ads?
It would be, techinically, legal.
Of course, if Accord diesel gets here, all makers will have to think fast!
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/07/2009-honda-accord-diesel-to-hit-52-mpg/
Anyhow, VW also has the Jetta Sportwagen coming out(jan 08) with claims of diesel geting 60 hwy, 40 city(combined 50mpg).
Under 20K msrp to start( probably have everything you need to drive a car: an engine, wheels, steering wheel,seats, and not much more??? The Rabbit-alone- can be over 20K with sunroof, automatic, etc..).
Who knows what else will be out in a few years, from any maker?
Anyhow, we need some under 20K msrp, 50 MPG cars.
Rumors from the dealership are of a possible Hybrid Corolla in a few years :confuse:
That could prove interesting, too.
Well it does say large cars which the EPA classifies the Sonata but not the Accord, Camry or Altima. As for the Avalon EPA estimates are 20/28 compared to 21/31 for the Sonata.
Maybe you need to do 5 seconds of research.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It should be noted the 2008 EPA fuel tests are not all that accurate. The EPA has come up with a formula to apply to the old ratings. Makes it really YMMV and even less of a help in choosing a vehicle. That does not change the facts. The Sonata is a better choice for mileage than the Camry.
Did you mean to say the 2007 EPA fuel tests are not all that accurate?
The only thing I would like to add is that I believe Toyota sees Hyundai as dangerous because they are so aggressive. Hyundai has the brass to compare, and they have the wherewithal to make good on their comparisons, for the most part. Using a football analogy, the brash but talented rookie is always ridiculed by some. His talent usually comes through in the end, and he proves himself to the naysayers.
And you know, for someone that doesn't know cars or even want to know cars, they won't go far wrong picking Toyota as a safe bet. For the folks that are a little more car savvy and willing to mix it up, Hyundais are probably the best value in the industry for the past 2 years.
If Sonata makes one more point on the EPA test vs Camry, then the two companies' fates are reversed in the Azera v Avalon head-to-head.
edit...actually I just looked up the FE numbers at Edmunds, and it shows 24/33 for the 4-cyl Sonata, exactly the same as the Camry. It also shows 19/28 for the Azera, compared with the 22/31 rating for the Avalon.
I may have misunderstood someone's point?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Maybe we should give a little credit to Hyundai for understanding where the EPA thresholds are and making the Sonata big enough inside to qualify for large-car class, so they can market it that way and take 1st in the EPA fuel economy ratings for the class.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That is what this forum is all about. Hyundai gained respect from the industry giant. I personally think it will take another 15~20years before Hyundai can compete with Toyota head to head. Still I am proud of Hyundai's amazing growth in terms of quality and sales. Hyundai is a rookie with amazing potential.
As we've read many times in these 1620 posts, whatever card Toyota plays, Hyundai is willing to not only call their hand, but up the stakes. If the Camry grows 1" in leg room, the Sonata will grow 2". If the Camry offers standard XM, then the Sonata will offer standard XM plus some other perk. Unless I am completely misreading their intentions, I think Hyundai will do whatever it takes to compete with Toyota. Time will tell!
So What? Do you think your opinion represents all Korean?
I personally think it will take another 15~20years before Hyundai can compete with Toyota head to head.
Sometimes silence is Gold. :mad:
Not really as far as the interior dimensions are concerned.
Azera:
Interior Vol - 107 | Trunk 17
Avalon:
Interior Vol - 107 | Trunk 14
Sonata:
Interior Vol - 105 | Trunk 16
Camry:
Interior Vol - 101 | Trunk 15
The Azera and Sonata make use of most of the car (similarly with other Hyundai's portfolio), despite shorter wheelbase and overall length to the Avalon and Camry, IIRC.
If you eliminate cash-draining factors like fuel economy, resale value, and costs of ownership. I guess value only comes off the window sticker.
For those who claim to drive one car into the ground, you have some argument. This is a small market percentage, doh.
DrFill
Hyundai has pulled on Superman's cape. Toyota can give some PC fodder, but Toyota competes with Honda. This is where Hyundai gets mixed up.
Hyundai needs to step over the Nissans/Mazdas of the world, just in brand image, to be taken seriously by a Toyota/Honda shopper.
When you skip steps in the process, that's where you lose the sales. Speed kills in the car business.
I haven't seen it help Hyundai's bottom line any. :surprise:
DrFill
I like cars and I've been impressed with every Hyundai I've driven or been in recently. Even the last generation Santa Fe with it's highly sculpted styling worked for me as a comfortable small SUV. The new Santa Fe now adds outstanding styling, more safety, and even better daily driving comfort.
My wife, who is not a car person, came back from a series of out of town meetings remembering one rental car -- a Sonata -- for being noticeably comfortable, smooth and quiet. She never remembers a car name and Camrys leave no impression on her.
My daughter, who has more of my car bug but is more pro import, loves Hyundais.
My historical first choices are Ford (or Mercury) and Chrysler. As a business person I respect Toyota and have owned a couple, but Toyota styling normally just fails to move me. And the local Toyota dealer is a constant source of frustration despite (or maybe because) it is the biggest in the area.
Hyundai is definitely now on my short list in almost any category. In sports cars it's Corvette for me. Big luxury, probably Cadillac or Buick. Pick-up it's Chevy. But Hyundai is in the hunt on everything else and with the new RWD chassis due soon, luxury and sport may be under fire quick enough.
Hyundai is now an easier choice for me than Toyota. That value equation makes Hyundai hard to ignore. There are Toyotas and Lexus models I admire, but I still feel they should be better given the Toyota or Lexus price premium. Hyundai makes me say, "This is great, especially at this value price."
As a car guy I often recommend cars to friends and family. I survey their priorities and always recommend at least three they need to look at more closely. I don't assume everyone has exactly the same tastes as I do and every car has its pros and cons. Toyota is often in the mix; however, I now recommend Hyundai as one of the three more often than any other brand. Why? Money matters but I'm increasingly confident neither the product or the dealer will make my recommendation look bad.
I was poised to drive a Camry Hybrid until the local dealer pulled a bone-headed move and sold my car under contract to someone else after I'd waited months for it to arrive. I assume that someone else was willing to sweeten the deal as the tax credit was near to expiring. It contrasts the short-term view of the dealer with the long view of Toyota. No car is good enough to overcome a bad dealer. When I recommend Toyotas I warn people of my experience with that dealer and recommend other Toyota dealers reasonably nearby.
I'm kind of cheering for some of the new GM products. Chrysler has just lost me with their recent styling and quality. Subaru is the definition of dependable but increasingly pricey. Nissan is on a styling roll but never registered as equivalent to Honda or Toyota quality. Ford/Mazda have a few models I like and recommend in specific categories. But I can tell you my enthusiasm is higher for Hyundai products these days than anyone. And I'm surprised to say that. I didn't see it coming but Hyundai has clearly arrived as a credible, mainstream brand.
Betcha that is terms of vehicles sold Hyundai has NOT gained on Toyota, simply a function of both of them picking up sales from you know who - something easily done lately.