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Comments
You want snow, ice, and long winter, try Western NY (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, to name a few), Try Maine, Try Wisconsin.
I've gone through FWD and RWD most of my life, and have never registered one accident. Bottom line, AWD does not make it invisible on the road.
So what's the AWD Sienna split? I am entertain to find out. Stop dodging questions and starting new topics.
Personally I don't want/need a minivan with AWD although I live in the Frozen Tundra, but there must be some people out there who do. So that's an advantage for Toyota, even if it may be a small one. They have greater product breadth than almost all of their competitors, including Hyundai. Hyundai won't beat them on product breadth, even though (amazingly) they offer some types of vehicles that Toyota doesn't.
Lexus is adding AWD to their sedans for similar demands: In the North, they will sell nicely.
Sales and demand varies by region.
The tail doesn't wag the dog. If Toyota does it, the others might want to re-think their position.
But then again, Toyota can, and has, had a history of investing more in their product/customer needs than other makers.
We wouldn't leave a New Yorker out in the cold. New Yorkers are paid!
Is it just me, or do I detect more than a little condescension? We don't live in NY, so we're not worthy, right? We don't bow at the Toyota altar, so we're not worthy, right?
Is it just me, or does DrFill repeatedly recite Toyota's superior sales figures?
Is it just me, or does DrFill ignore very pertinent questions, and fall back on is endless chant "Toyota sells more"?
I've owned 2 Toyotas(still own 1), and until running across DrFill, I would gladly buy another. However, I think he has forever soured me on Toyota. :lemon:
No need to reply DrFill. We already know what you are going to say!
Where??? Where do I sign up???
I have never visited a Hyundai dealer so cannot comment.
Yes. Actually $3,500
Here is the quote from Autoblog:
Few vehicles have received more negative press in such a short period of time as the 2007 Toyota Tundra. Plant cost overruns, four star crash ratings, camshaft issues, and a series of rebates have shown that the mighty Toyota is fallible after all. Well, it seems the bad news just keeps-a-coming, as vastly improved May sales weren't enough to stop even more rebates.
Now if you want to get your hands on a new Tundra, depending on the model, you can get up to $3,500 off the sticker or zero-percent financing for up to five years, or $500 off the down payment on a three-year lease. There is no more competitive segment in the automotive world than full-size pickups, and we're seeing evidence pile up that the Tundra just isn't up to the challenge. While the Tundra's new engine is second to none, the rest of the truck has a way to go.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/19/toyota-offers-new-round-of-incentives-on-tundra/
My views do not reflect those of Toyota.
I do not consider Hyundai significant "competition", for reasons laid out here, that doesn't mean in several years that may not change.
My reason for being here is to challenge the Toyota-bashers to justify the namesake of this forum. Am I playing unfairly? :confuse:
If I lie, or say something that doesn't make sense, please, call me on it.
Some would call me confident. Some over-confident. Backing Toyota, and being a salesman in general, means walking that line.
Hopefully you are able to distill truth from fiction, and bias from nonsense.
I will not be apologizing for my opinions, nor defending a successful, progressive company that deserves better than to be mocked as a false reputation, as it has been here.
If I make a mistake, make sure to let me know. Like a Toyota, I am pretty damn good, but not perfect.
Any "condescending" remarks are meant to mirror those from the opposition.
Hyundai has made some moves. But so has Ford. I ask for consistency, value, and a intelligent business plan from the opposition.
Toyota will provide that to it's customers. Toyota is a known quantity. That's what makes Toyota so successful. High expectations that are matched by the product.
I don't see many companies in any position to match. I think Toyota is, clearly, the best automaker in the world.
Hyundai is an upstart to me. Nothing more. Potential doesn't sell cars.
Last I checked, that was the idea.
DrFill
.....we're seeing evidence pile up that the Tundra just isn't up to the challenge. While the Tundra's new engine is second to none, the rest of the truck has a way to go.
20 bad Camshafts and some rebates doesn't a bad truck make. Toyota wants these trucks on the street, to build word of mouth, like every other Toyota. You can't get the ball rolling unless you start it moving. Toyota won't be able to keep up with the domestics when it comes to incentives, so that is more than a little out of line.
And Tundra set a all-time sales record last month as well. Sales have accelerated nicely for the 3 months it's been out. I don't think this person knows that either.
Drive the truck, learn what makes it different, then make an intelligent comment. It's much more than just an engine.
DrFill
Toyota is #1 in sales now. You know what happens when you are #1, right? Everyone comes at you, with full force. You are their #1 target. So Toyota faces the following challenges:
GM: Tons of resources, world-wide reach, strong in trucks, SUVs, and some car markets, and is getting very serious about sedans. And they are fighting for survival. You don't want to fight someone who is fighting for survival if you can help it.
Ford: Retooling, but still lots of resources, world-wide reach, some excellent products (especially trucks, and cars in Europe), and is also getting serious about cars in the U.S. (e.g. Fusion, new Focus). Also fighting for their survival.
Chrysler: Will be busy reinventing itself in the near term, but can give Toyota trouble in a few areas, e.g. minivans and trucks. And guess what? They too are fighting for their survival, with a new ownership and lots of investment capital thanks to Daimler Benz.
Honda: Excellent reputation (at least as good if not better than Toyota's), excellent products (in many cases better than Toyota's), excellent engineering. Would be Toyota's worst nightmare if they were more aggressive and had more resources.
Nissan: Solid reputation, some excellent products, good resources with help from Renault. And a driven (sorry) leader.
And Hyundai/Kia... where do they fit? They provide a huge problem for Toyota. To keep on top, Toyota needs to maintain its high level of product quality and reliability while maintaining and growing a large product line. Because of Hyundai/Kia, they need to do all that while holding down prices, since Hyundai/Kia offers comparable products with comparable quality, but with much lower prices and a better warranty. Once more of the marketplace understands this, it will put increasing pressure on Toyota. Meanwhile, they have to fight off GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, and Nissan too--not to mention the smaller fry. It will take flawless execution on Toyota's part. Which, from some recent posts, appears difficult for Toyota to achieve.
That said, my next car may be a Hyundai, a Toyota, or a badge I can't even imagine at this time. But you can bet that whatever vehicle it is, Hyundai will have had an effect on the price and makeup of that vehicle because of what they are doing today.
You have just described the challenges a lot of automakers face. And just like Toyota, automakers across the industry are fighting hard to make you a customer. With better products, consumers win!!
Now hopefully you would understand why many of us have spoken highly of Hyundai. Not b/c we were trying to put down Toyota, or hate the maker, understand (in your own words) "you can't get the ball rolling unless you start it moving". Funny in your case, the double standards apply to Toyota but not Hyundai. Long story short, Hyundai is playing Toyota's game when they first started in the US, but in much much shorter phase.
Again, sales are not the bottom line. It is, however, one of the factors that drive the success of a product, a company.
While too much has been made of the Tundra in this thread, IMO, it does point out an Achilles Heel of Toyota right now: trying to move aggressively into new segments, without keeping enough of an eye on who's coming up behind it.
This may bite it in the butt in several different ways. I think Hyundai will need to work on expanding its dealer network if it hopes to make the million-sales mark. Right now the majority of Toyota dealers are stand-alone. I don't know the overall numbers for Hyundai, but there is no dealer anywhere near me that is stand-alone. The closest one is a combo GM (Chevy/Caddy/Saab/Hummer)/Hyundai dealer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So I don't know if number of dealers is a gating factor for Hyundai right now. I think it's more getting more people to visit the dealerships they already have.
It's not about talking down a competitor. When Lexus came out, they focused on what their cars could do, not what the competition couldn't. Mercedes and BMW need not be mentioned to build their brand.
A little forethought, a little investment, a little delicacy can go a long way when conveying a message, or a mission statement.
It's not about what everybody else is doing. If Toyota keeps applying the pressure, and making strong products, nothing can stop them. Only Toyota can stop Toyota. You have a better chance of catching Michael Johnson.
Aggression in great, but it doesn't insure success. Hyundai has many steps to take before Toyota should be on their Things To Do list.
No one plans to fail, but many fail to plan.
DrFill
Take me back to those items please.
Toyota uses the discounts and rebates and incentives to increase volume. Honda normally forgoes volume in most cases.
Both the Sienna and the Ody both hold their values very very well. Frankly almost noone trades in either model. It's shocking how few of either model get offered in trade.
Here's a hint ask someone at work 'How was your morning commute? Huh? It was boring I hate it.
'What did you like best about it?' I can't stand any part of it.
Wasn't it the most exciting. gripping experience you've had this week? No I almost got hit twice and I was stuck in traffic sitting doing nothing for 45 min.
I hate driving.
Now the automakers want to give drivers like this an expensive purchase that will be nearly worthless in 10 years, which consumes huge chunks of money every week and suddenly expect them to fall head over heels in love.
Well maybe for recent drivers who suddenly have the freedom to go places they've never been before. However when reality and life become joined a vehicle is just like a hammer; buy it as inexpensively as possible, use it, bruise it, expect it to last forever and if it doesn't dispose of it, get another one.
But, in city areas, there are 3 Hyundai dealerships in a 30 mile radius.
What Hyundai needs? Trucks!
I have had salesmen, other owners, non-owners, say Hyundai needs a truck!
Maybe even before a Luxury Car, like the Genesis?
Tiburon? Sells 18-23K units a year.
Scion tC, nearly 80,000 per year.
Both sporty cars, 16-20K...One Sells, One Doesn't.
The Sonata V6 is a nice car, but is bland as anything else these days. The old one , like I own(2004), I as at a gas station 2 years ago, on Thanksgiving Day, and some guy about 50-ish (across from me) asked me"How do you like your INFINITY?"
LOL... I had to tell him it was a Sonata, and he even asked to look at it(interior).
He said it looked good.
Will ANYONE mistake the 07 for an Infinity? LOL...No(unfortunately, IMO).
Same for Tiburon. Our 01 may have looked good or weird, depending on your perspective, but IT GOT NOTICED.
Current Tibby?
Ummmm.... I don't think so.
I like the 07 Elantra, except it is slower than a Versa SL(same MPG). It also has a 6 way(vs 8 way) seat adjuster.
Kind of skimping a bit?
It just seems Hyundai's looks dept, for vehicles, has become somewhat "tame", "Bland", whatever.
And some Minor decontenting seems to be happening, too.
Since I have been an owner since Summer of 1999...I should know decontenting, no matter how "minor".
Anyhow, who knows?
Hyundai needs a really good sporty car to compete against Scion tC, and maybe a truck or two?
I would not mind seeing a 5 door (that does not look like a wagon, but maybe like the 5 door Mondeo) Optima or Sonata here.
That could prove interesting.
Maybe some diesel engines, or hybrids from Hyundai, like the promised Kia Rio/Hyundai Accent hybrids?
Make 'em cheaper than any other hybrid out there.... and they would sell!
Maybe even gain a few conquest sales?
Same for the (smaller) trucks and a good looking,3 door(new) sporty car?
I dunno.
DrFill
Tib is a looker IMO. I don't think it competes directly with the tC. The Tib is really in a niche group along with the Eclipse (and a few others that are now no longer in production). We got a test vehicle a few months back and it's a fantastic looking car, and a good one. I am looking forward to the next generation moving to RWD!!!
As far as de-contenting, I recall you have a previous generation Sonata. De-contenting? The 06+ Sonata is much better car than the previous generation, in every way. It's got great value - one the best out there, defn. better than the last generation IMO. Price increases are normal from 99 to 07, they are called inflation.
Hatchbacks (3 door + 5 door), wagons don't exactly sell in the US, although it is gaining some traction lately.
Bring diesels, Hyundai has good ones overseas, forget hybrids.
'What did you like best about it?' I can't stand any part of it.
Wasn't it the most exciting. gripping experience you've had this week? No I almost got hit twice and I was stuck in traffic sitting doing nothing for 45 min.
I hate driving.
Sound like somebody needs to get a new environment quick. Move to a small town, open an online business, and enjoy an easier lifestyle. I'm in real estate and I see it over and over and over again.
Then go out there and buy a RWD, convertible V8 Tiburon (coming soon to a small town near you)
I have spent every winter in my life either around the great lakes or in Alaska and I will say that the vast majority of the time AWD isn't a nessecity. FWIW I went through the blizzards of '79 in a RWD car with little trouble.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No, its not just you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Ok when are you going to show any significant advantages?
I do not consider Hyundai significant "competition"
You should they have sone significant advantages over Toyota.
Hyundai is an upstart to me.
It may be to you but it is a major player in the auto market making cars as good as Toyota with more options for less money.
You still haven't given me a compelling reason to buy the Camry over the Sonata.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You are out doing yourself.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
into the radio was $399, I believe.
Most Sonatas and all Azeras come with XM standard. It should be included or no more than a couple hundred dollars.
What's weird, iirc, the Length of the Tibby and tC, tibby i 173 inches long, and tC 174 inches long.
The Tibby is not ugly, but since it got "heavier" than our 01, like the Eclipse, (especially w/.I-4 engine) it seems too heavy/slow(vs tC I-4).
I wonder, are they going to use similar sized Tibby today, but make it RWD and 300HP, as rumors imply, and make a maybe VW Rabbit(in length?) sized sporty small car(FWD) out of that one vehicle they showed, the Veloster?.
Kia is supposedly going to have a RWD sproty car, by 09(?) if you look @ intellichoice.com, future cars( well, they said a sporty small car, and rwd sporty car, at one time, then just said RWD sports car).
Lots of rumors.
I know people still waiting for a convertible Tibby( those rumors have been going around since the 2001-02 model we had).
Anyhow... yeah, trucks... who knows?
If it were my area, just looking around(serious here), one would think it is still late 90's, early 2000's, with all the larger SUV's and Trucks parked in all the driveways( last count, about 10 SUV/Trucks, and maybe 6 cars)trucks still sell well.
Of course, this is "farmer country" also.
Go to say Krogers or Wal-Mart, and more trucks/SUV's than cars, or drive down the roads, and until you hi the next county, it's like a time machine, going back 10 years, with all of the larger vehicles/trucks on the road. One would think gas is 1 dollar a gallon again, like in 1998!
I see a few Toyotas and Nissans(trucks) around.
A "even cheaper"(diesel?) Hyundai/Kia would sell. Maybe not like the GM/Fords do here, but people would buy them.
Tons of Sonata's(last generation, 02-06) around.
Who knows?
Me? I am still not sure what will be my next car(if I live that long, that is).
Could be compact car, a larger(Azera)sedan,who knows?
Depends if I want "fun", or "comfort"( seems hard to find both. The tC is fun, and comfortable, for about 1 hour... for 2-3 hour drives? No. When we go places on the weekends, the Sonata pulls duty, not the tC).
Sometimes larger cars can be fun and comfortable.
Who knows?
take care/ not offense.
An addendum:
http://www.newcars.com/hyundai/tiburon/reviews/scion-tc.html
Says good and bad about tibby and tC.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/12847/2007-hyundai-tiburon-gt.html
this says Tibby GT 7th place in 0-60, and tC 5th place, iirc.
Anyhow... it all depends on what you like. The Tibby is fine looking, just a tiny bit heavier vs tC, and not quite as smooth(same types of roads we tested both on whenwe got the tC in 04)for a daily communte( we have nearly 85K miles and the car is not even 3 years old, the tC, so leg room, some ride comfort, etc... was important, as well as MPG).
Also the 0-60 times is 173HP V6 from Tibby vs 160HP I-4 from Scion(and Scion still won, and gets better MPG, too)
take care/not offense.
I think that's good advice. I think you would do well to follow it.
If you would take a poll, I don't think there is 1 person on this thread that has a low opinion of Toyota vehicles. However, I think many of us believe that Toyota doesn't have the market cornered on quality, value, features, and warranty. I think some Hyundai models are very close to Toyota, and even surpass them in some ways. That's stating my opinion about Hyundai, not talking down Toyota.
I respectfully ask you, how can high sales create quality? I don't think it can. Quality can create high sales, but there's a lag. When you compare 2007 to 2007 vehicles, sales is not an indicator of current vehicle quality.
This is a forum. Everyone is allowed to have their opinion and to state it. And to do so without having someone take the attitude that if someone doesn't like the car they sell "I'll throw sand with anybody."
I as one poster grew tired of the constant sand throwing in certain posts. It makes readers and posters decide not to post and I don't think that's what the hosts want.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There may not be a linear connection between sales and quality, but of course there is a strong connection. Sales are EVERYTHING in the car business. Hyundai may build a good car, but they'd rather you BUY one than talk about how good the car is.
Toyota nailed it a few years back with the "Oh what a feeling" ad campaign. Buying their cars made you feel good. Plus you get a great car at the same time.
People today will spend a few more bucks to get what makes them feel good. Not everybody is a pipe-smoking, newspaper under the arm, detail crunching car shopper that compares every little feature and statistic when buying their car. They want what makes them feel good and Toyota knows how to stroke that need.
Toyota can sell 50,000 Camrys in a month because of it.
What can Hyundai say about its 12,000 Sonatas sales in a month when they were trying to smack down the Camry? Underachieving? Maybe people don't feel good about the Sonata like they do about the Santa Fe or Elantra.
Hear hear!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What?
Oh I forgot, if Hyundai isn't on Toyota's level, then Hyundai's underachieving. I sense a serious level of double standards, where Toyota can do no wrong.
What's wrong with 12K/month? That's a huge increase from the previous generation Sonatas.
FWIW, I have spent a good amount of time in both the Camry and the Sonata, neither to my likes, but both are very competent cars. I would recommend both to persepctive shoppers, especially the value the Sonata puts. No, the Camry didn't make me feel good, and I didn't get that "what a feeling" vibe, but it's great daily transportation (ditto on the Sonata).
But I am not in the car business. I'm just a lowly buyer. Therefore, numbers do not impress me. History does not impress me. When I purchase a vehicle every 5 years or so, I compare quality, features, safety, and value, currently, among 4 or 5 contenders. My comparison is not perfect, but neither is is done on a purely emotional "feeling" level. Driving a BMW 5 series would give me a good feeling for sure, but those monster monthy notes would give me a very bad feeling.
That may be their limit of current manufacturing capacity. I think it was posted that they use the same plant for the Sante Fe. I would think profit per vehicle would be a better indication of company health. If they are making a good profit they will probably build more factories here. And with each new factory they will cut into one of the other automaker's sales. As has been pointed out so many times in the GM threads, numbers of cars sold mean absolutely nothing.
DrFill
If that's what you think, ok.
People don't buy cars they don't like, or believe will be worth owning. They drive the car, and buy it if it will do the job well. This I KNOW.
If a car sells a lot, retail, people like the car, and believe in it. That's all. But that's more than enough.
More excuses are cropping up that Hyundai may only be able to build x amount (maybe).
If that's what you're selling, I aint' buyin'. If this company has the ambition and potential we think it does, and they want to be a force in the US, not building enough cars is a problem that a big-time company just wouldn't have.
A well-run company wouldn't have such a problem for more than a month or two. Hyundai sales have been flat for 1 1/2 years. :surprise:
DrFill
I'll keep my finger's crossed.
DrFill
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No? And yet Honda has this problem on a semi-regular basis, with production currently constrained on the Fit, and last year constrained on the Civic too.
Heck, Toyota has this problem from time to time, like when North America can't build enough Camrys. Yes, they bring in some from Japan, thereby reducing their profit margin, just to keep the "Camry spigot" flowing, but it is still a production constraint.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hyundai is getting quality up, but there is more to selling cars than that. Toyota knows this. Hyundai is still learning those ropes.
This is chess, it ain't checkers. A 10-year business plan and some consistent results should be next on Hyundai's To Do List. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, if they invest their resources wisely. :confuse:
And even then, they only have a 50-50 chance of getting where they want to go. :confuse:
DrFill
Sure its only 20 camshafts. I would be willing to bet it is way more than that, but they are doing what Toyota does best and hide the fact just like the sludge problems that they were forced to admit to when the lawsuits came. Face it other automakers have caught up and Toyota has peaked and will be slowly coming down as evidenced by their quality the last few years.
"And Tundra set a all-time sales record last month as well. Sales have accelerated nicely for the 3 months it's been out. I don't think this person knows that either."
Set an all-time sales record for a Toyota Tundra, but corportate is still pulling their hair because they are way under what they figured and there aren't enough previous Toyota truck buyers to throw away their money on a sub-par truck.
Not too many excellent products from this company. Other than Mitsubishi, not one of the better Japanese companies. You can put this company in the trying to survive catagory.