Toyota Fearing Hyundai?

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Comments

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If Sonata can boost 4-cylinder production, and sales, and generate 15k a month, than that's a valid point.

    DrFill
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    While it may have fewer emissions when you drive it it pollutes a heck of a lot more when you build it. Thats not being earth friendly in my book.

    A standard ICE from being processed from raw materials to being completely recycled will produce less pollutants than a Prius.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    15k a month is about the upper limit for Sonatas right now, given that Santa Fe sales are close to 10k a month and the capacity of the Alabama plant is 300k/year. Of course, if Santa Fe sales continue to grow as they have, Hyundai may cut back on Sonatas (assuming there's more profit on the Santa Fes, which I suspect is the case). They might be able to ship some from the ROK, but I don't know what their production limits are there.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So the Hyundai plant will max out at 300k vehicles per year? I guess they best build another one. From what I read that is one of the most advanced automobile plants in the USA.

    If Toyota management is interested in seeing how the Sonata is built they can take the tour.

    Hyundai Tour

    PS
    Sante Fe sales are almost double from last year.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Sorry to trump your card, but THE Eco-friendly way is to roll in a Prius.

    No, the eco-friendly way is not to drive. Don't get me even started on hybrids, give me a diesel any day.

    Talking about the Prius, Toyota is trying to meet its sales goal in more ways than one. Toyota is going all out - incentives, subsidized lease rates, fleet units, and, well, the whole nine yards. These are things Toyota never needed just a few years ago, plus you had to pay thousands of markup then, and only when your number is called.

    To see how this is evident, I saw full sea of Prius, Corolla and Camry last time I was at the rental lot.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    If you know of a more conscientious new vehicle, please let us know.

    How about something that burns biomass and doesn't use batteries with toxic chemicals in them, that have to be dealt with when said batteries wear out?

    Hybrids have been around long enough to start getting an idea on the life of those batteries, as well as what has to be done with them. I'd suggest you look into it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Alabama plant is using only 1/4 of the available land, so there is room for expansion when needed. And Kia is building a similar-sized factory nearby, in Georgia, set to start making cars in 2009.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Corolla set a record last month

    Hard to understand the consumers sometimes. Corolla is hardly the best product in the class (not even close), go figure...

    I do understand, however, Matrix is included in Corolla count.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I would think expansion might be the wise move as demand rises. Hyundai has considered a third model, possibly either the Azera or the luxury RWD sedan BH.

    Not sure which Kia models would be built at the Georgia plant, any guesses to venture?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think Civic set a record in May also (sold more than Accord!), and Elantras are selling pretty well also. Fuel economy sells cars these days. I just wonder how many of the Corollas went to fleets.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Now a Prius is not produced efficiently enough, and years of SULEV emissions and 50% less gas, or more, is nullified?

    Waaahh! Corolla sells too many cars, and nobody buys my sled. Waaaahh! How did they sell 30,000,000 Corollas. My car has side air bags, so you should buy mine. Waaahhh!

    Nice try. Keep up the not-so-good work. It's going well. :sick:

    A valid point is somewhere in our future......I hope. :surprise:

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I won't hash over the pros and cons of hybrid vs the environment. There are 1000s of posts dedicated to that end.

    What I am curious about is the dumping of Prius into the taxi and rental fleets. When GM does this I read from posters here at Edmund's how that is degrading to the vehicles being sold. Is it not the same for the Prius?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe you could stop crying long enough to make a valid point, without the jabs, or take the time to read some that were posted earlier.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Get over SULEV already. It's not like the Prius is the only one. Plenty of vehicles meet the PVEZ/SULEV certification (i.e. Civic hybrid, Elantra, Focus, Jetta).

    Like I said, give me a diesel any day :)
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Hard to understand the consumers sometimes. Corolla is hardly the best product in the class (not even close), go figure...

    You'll obviously never be in a sales or marketing position with that attitude. Your opinion of the Corolla's position in it's class is obviously, again, immaterial. The customer is right - you're not.

    Hyundai sales are sad considering they build a good car. Maybe they need more marketing types in the organization to sell the sizzle more than the steak.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    You'll obviously never be in a sales or marketing position with that attitude.

    Been there and done that. Currently at a PR firm with a good percentage of our clients in the automotive sector. Still, thanks for the assumption and the encouragement - I appreciate your vote of confidence in me.

    Your opinion of the Corolla's position in it's class is obviously, again, immaterial. The customer is right - you're not.

    It was never about right or wrong. Re-read my post - I never said the consumers were wrong (or right), and I don't believe I was wrong for saying Corolla is not the best-in-class vehicle. It's not. Don't get me wrong, the Corolla is a great vehicle, but there are slew of fantastic small cars just as good, if not better.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    What I am curious about is the dumping of Prius into the taxi and rental fleets

    While sales to fleets are generally degrading, I tend to see this as a positive thing. Priuses and other hybrids are ideally suited to the type of driving that cabs do, namely short city hops (they're actually more efficient city than highway). High torque takeoffs and lots of hard braking...NYC cabbies probably WOULD use lots less gas! :shades: I'm still worried about battery life and disposal though...

    However, what Fill said earlier about 50% less gas due to hybrids is not backed up by any scientific data other than the soon-to-be eliminated former EPA economy test...which is being eliminated because it doesn't accurately model real-world conditions.

    Real-world conditions, combining city and highway, last I checked had shown hybrids burning 20% less gas. Noticable, but not even CLOSE to 50%. back to the drawing board, Fill. Maybe you should try being one of those HONEST salesmen instead of making up stats to get sales like certain hated salesmen do? :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My theory on the continued popularity of the current Corolla. Toyota customers that are loyal have seen the current Camry and are afraid Toyota will do the same to the Corolla. They are buying a good solid car before it gets changed for the worse. Too many previous Camry owners are not thrilled with the 2007. I believe the consumer rating has dropped another point here on Edmund's. All the spin in the world is not going to make someone with a squeaky Camry happy.

    Here is another recent Toyota customer review. As you mentioned the customer is always RIGHT!

    Rattles, creaks, wind noise, driver's door alignment have been issues former Toyotas I've owned have never had. I'm happy I'm not having the trans issues the V6s have had. All in all Toyota has dropped the ball. Seems the company's quest to be #1 has caused quality issues. I'll think twice before buying another Toyota.
  • harrycheztharrychezt Member Posts: 405
    I looked at a few Camry's last fall, when our tC was getting 60K tune-up. Out of maybe 10 versions(some with leather, sunroof,etc, some with cloth, a "base" model), only had had mis-aligned anything, and it was the interior. IIRC(I could not sit inside, just look, it was on the outdoor lot, and the guys knew I was not buying), it seemed the dash had top/bottom parts(not 1 whole piece)...and it was mis-aligned by the radio/glovebox, etc, just about 1/4 inch, hard to explain, but it was like a 1995 Sonata or something :surprise:
    The rest of the cars were fine.
    May have been a Friday, and that "base" model was the last car of the day, to come off of the assembly line :confuse:

    It was shocking to see such a (easy to see) mis-alignment(s) :surprise:

    Anyhow...
    I like the Camry's, not the price.
    My in-law ahd a 1987 Toyota pick-up(extended cab) truck... he got used in early 1988. Grey(Silver?) colored.
    Not bad.
    He said the problem, for him, with Toyota was not quality, it was price of replacement parts, etc..
    Even at a local garage, parts were pricey, even in the 1990's.
    At 153K miles, he needed the engine re-bored(due to gunk in it).
    At 253k, a new tranny(well, parts).
    At 278K, it was rusted out, and tranny was near death, (1999), so he got rid of it.
    He liked the truck, but not the cost of parts.
    This is why he refuses to buy another Toyota, new or used(Or Honda...he knew a guy with a Accord... and said similar things about parts being more costly than other companies cars he had owned in the past ??).

    The spouse's tC, 30K tune-up was about 80+ dollars more than mine for an 05 Sonata V6( her tC is 05).
    I know oil changes are $29.95 to $39.95 at Scion( depends on where you go, which Scion/town-state).
    My oil changes are $19.95-$23.95, depends on where you go. Had seen on coupon for $9.95, but it was old, and it had expired(forgot about it).

    Anyhow, carry on.
    take care/not offense.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Sorry to trump your card, but THE Eco-friendly way is to roll in a Prius.

    I'm sorry, but the Prius is butt-ugly. That's 1 of the very few modern cars that I would be ashamed to drive. Also, their mileage claims border on criminal. There's no way a car that heavy can susain that kind of mileage. Another problem is, the Prius' battery packs will fail en masse, and I wouldn't want to be stuck with a 5 year old car that's worth almnost nothing because of a bad battery pack. The Prius is a solution to exactly nothing. I guess it makes guilt-ridden rich people feel good to own one, but when they need to travel, they hop into their SUV.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    >My theory on the continued popularity of the current Corolla. Toyota customers that are loyal have seen the current Camry and are afraid Toyota will do the same to the Corolla. They are buying a good solid car before it gets changed for the worse.

    Good post.

    That's a very good point. A friend replaced a car last summer with a Corolla. She did not like the new Civic. She did not like the "new" Camry at the time.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    >I'm sorry, but the Prius is butt-ugly. That's 1 of the very few modern cars that I would be ashamed to drive.

    I saw an earlier Prius Hybrid car that was a Corolla on the interstate Friday; it had rounded rear lights like a Sentra. If Toyota had kept that obvious connection to the Corolla body without distorting the style to make it look "different," they wouldn't be selling any more than Accord hybrids sell. There's a smugness to the idea of owning a car that stands out, whether I like the Prius appearance or not. The Simpsons made fun of it in one of their episodes. If the car looked like the Corolla base it has it wouldn't be selling nearly as many.

    >the Prius' battery packs will fail en masse, and I wouldn't want to be stuck with a 5 year old car that's worth almnost nothing because of a bad battery pack.

    I've said that from the beginning with batteries. The other factor is how can one be "green" if your batteries are made in foreign countries because they wouldn't be pollution friendly enough to be manufactured under US rules. Green car?

    When will Hyundai come out with its gas-electric model?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    When will Hyundai come out with its gas-electric model?

    A long long looooooong time ago I heard it was supposed to be the second half of this year (or last quarter not sure), but I haven't heard about anything about it in a while. So I wouldn't expect anything to soon.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Accord V6 hybrid

    It's being discontinued...

    When will Hyundai come out with its gas-electric model?

    I hear in a year or two the Accent/Rio hybrids would be here. It's already had a delay, so no definite time schedule (next gen Prius is also having a delay from what I hear). Also, Hyundai is coming out with LPG (liquefied petroleum gas) Elantra/Avante for the home market. Not sure if NA market is destined.

    Forget hybrids, bring on the diesel.

    I'm looking forward to seeing a slew of them to appear on market by the end of the decade. I hear Hyundai will have one by then :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think that Kia and Hyundai both have hybrids at home. They may not be working out as well as was hoped for. I agree we will all be better off if Hyundai/Kia offer clean diesel vehicles. That would also be best for Toyota.

    Originally, the Kia Rio hybrid was set to launch in late 2006; however, due to currency issues, Hyundai has pushed back the development of their hybrid cars until 2009 - at the earliest. Unfortunately, it is not known whether the first production will only be sold in Korea, or in other markets as well.

    Kia Hybrid????
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I could be wrong but I don't think Hyundai has hybrids at home. They have fleets of test vehicles but nothing commercial yet. I have heard, however, in S. Korea, there are lots of LPG vehicles used as taxi fleet.

    As far as diesels are concerned, Hyundai has them all over the world, except for the the North American market, which is the case for most automakers at this time. I had the pleasure driving its CRDi vehicles when I was in Europe, and I thought they were great!! I am really looking forward to check out its top range new diesel engine, the 3.0L V6, 240hp, 300+ lbs/tq (don't have the exact spec in front of me - I know it has cold-start technology). Should be one sweet engine.

    Talking about engines, what do you guys think about the new V8s Hyundai has developed? The 4.6L, 5.0L, and 5.5L Tau family line, featuring superchargers and engine deactivation. I don't have a lot of info on them but was hoping someone would pass on additional insight.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I would have jumped on a diesel in a NY minute if 1 would have been available when I bought my '06. 200 Lb/Ft of torque is about a minimum for me, but that should be easy for even small efficient diesels.

    The Tau series V8's are exciting. If they run as smoothly and reliably as the Lambda series, they should be great. If the Tau would drop into the Tiburon, a 5.5L would make it a pocket rocket! :surprise:
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    If the Tau would drop into the Tiburon, a 5.5L would make it a pocket rocket!

    A 5.5L V8 engine in a FWD car?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The consensus has the Tib moving to rear-wheel for the next generation.
  • coneheadssuckconeheadssuck Member Posts: 10
    Hyundai is at the same place that Toyota was 10-15 years ago. Toyota had the bad wrap for a while but kept improving 10-fold each year....this paid off obviously and now they are on their way to the top............
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    If I could get my '98 Corolla to last to nearly 300K miles with the most having to spend on it is the cost of a new transmission, I'll have considered myself fortunate, and the price of the my Corolla the best money I ever spent. As it stands now, I have a car that I'll never have to buy a timing belt for, and I've got 128K miles on the original plugs. And it's never left me stranded at night. A ball joint recently went bad on it, and the starter went out early this year, and I don't think the price of repairs were exorbitant.

    Darn right, I'm buying another one when the time comes. The money you do spend on parts are few and far between, especially compared to the Mercurys I used to have. No offense taken, just perspective from a woman who actually owns one.

    Thanks
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    >. A ball joint recently went bad on it, and the starter went out early this year, and

    What was the bill for the ball joint replacement?
    What was the bill for the starter replacement?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    What was the bill for the ball joint replacement?
    What was the bill for the starter replacement
    ?

    Who cares?

    Sounds like enviable performance to me. Why question it?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think it would be beneficial to this discussion to have a comparison of dealer repairs on comparable vehicles such as the Corolla and Elantra. Starters and ball joints can be quite expensive. Our 1990 Mazda 626 has not needed either at 18 years of age. If the Corolla needed those at 10 years I find that interesting on a car that is supposed to be bullet proof.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I think it would be beneficial to this discussion to have a comparison of dealer repairs on comparable vehicles such as the Corolla and Elantra. Starters and ball joints can be quite expensive. Our 1990 Mazda 626 has not needed either at 18 years of age. If the Corolla needed those at 10 years I find that interesting on a car that is supposed to be bullet proof.

    Talk about splitin' hairs. Let it be. Any car that goes 10 years gets a medal.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not in my book. Then I rarely put more than 7k miles per year on a vehicle.

    My point was cost of repairs at Toyota vs Hyundai dealers when the warranty is ended.

    I just threw in the Mazda vs Toyota comparison. How is that splitting hairs?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    My theory on the continued popularity of the current Corolla. Toyota customers that are loyal have seen the current Camry and are afraid Toyota will do the same to the Corolla. They are buying a good solid car before it gets changed for the worse.

    Good post.

    That's a very good point. A friend replaced a car last summer with a Corolla. She did not like the new Civic. She did not like the "new" Camry at the time.


    ........if the Camry didn't sell over 50,000 cars last month. :sick:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Hyundai is at the same place that Toyota was 10-15 years ago. Toyota had the bad wrap for a while but kept improving 10-fold each year....this paid off obviously and now they are on their way to the top............

    More like 20-25 years ago. Toyota had just redefined the family car market with the 1992 Toyota Camry, and had been building Lexus for 3 years, plus "the Most Trouble Free Car In America", the Toyota Cressida for the previous 3-4 years. ;)

    Hyundai has to make up two decades. I say they can be a heavy player in one.

    DrFill
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    More like 20-25 years ago.

    More like 5. I would hazard to guess that in ten years or so they might be here saying Toyota is where Hyundai was 5 years ago.

    As of now except for the name (which in reality is meaningless) there is no compelling reason to go Toyota over Hyundai.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Since the 2006 Sonata (U.S. debut early 2005) beat out the 2006 Camry (U.S. debut early 2001) in multiple comparison tests, and the 2007 Elantra (U.S. debut Oct. 2006) beat out the 2007 Corolla (U.S. debut early 2002--actually the previous-gen Elantra also beat the current generation Corolla in comparison tests), and the 2007 Veracruz beat out--well, you get the picture--there is some substantiation that Hyundai is less than 5 years behind Toyota. Hyundai is even closer on quality indicators such as the JD Powers IQS, and has even topped Toyota there in recent years. It's much closer than some people might think, or admit.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    if the Camry didn't sell over 50,000 cars last month

    Spoken like a true salesperson.

    Do you ever let people share a story? Not everyone has to like Toyota so please stop whoring sales figures and acting like it's Toyota or nothing else.

    Ugh, I'm caving in. Actually, the Camry didn't really do well last month. If you think about it, last month's figure included 1) increased fleet units 2) hybrid sales (IIRC, around 6,500 units) 3) an extra selling day

    You do the math...
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Not everyone has to like Toyota

    And not everyone has to like Hyundai. Ya see?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    And not everyone has to like Hyundai. Ya see?

    Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Now follow the story line and see what my post was about and the response - some guy makes a post about how many Camrys were sold just b/c another person didn't like the styling.

    If it makes you feel better, I don't own a Toyota nor a Hyundai. I have driven many of them (part of my job), however, and I give my experience on them. As a matter of fact, I will give (and have given) credits when they are due, Toyota, Hyundai, and the rest.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    They should be fearing Honda hacking into their U.S. sales.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    There is a difference between sharing a story and sharing a lie. Cross the line, and I'll be here with my trusty ruler. ;)

    A false tie was made to the new Camry styling and an increase in Corolla sales, which would make sense, if Camry lost sales, but quite the opposite happened.

    (Surprised I had to explain that point. It was pretty obvious.)

    I don't care if you like Toyota or not, but the respect....I'm not feelin' it. :(

    You endless attempts to run Toyota down to Hyundai's level have met someone who puts his foot down on that nonsense.

    And that foot is me! :blush:

    DrFill
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Hyundai has to make up two decades. I say they can be a heavy player in one.

    Make up 2 decades in what?

    In quality? Nope, Hyundai's quality is on par with Toyota now.

    In reliability? Nope, Hyundai is there now.

    In value? Sorry, but Hyundai leads this category by a wide margin, now. Not in 10 years, but now.

    In sales? Yes. But so what? I don't care if that ever happens. It has nothing to do with quality and value. I have bought ~10 new cars in my life, and have never once asked my salesman for monthly sales figures. It just isn't a buying point.

    Don't get your cause and effect mixed up DrFill. It is possible, and even probable for high quality and value to generate high car sales. However, it is not possible for high sales to generate high quality and value. That has to be built in at the factory, not talked in by the salesmen. ;)
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Credibility. Comparable to where Toyota was 15-20 years ago. Potentially ahead of stalwart companies like Nissan and Ford.

    If things continue on their present course. You will have it in about 10 years.

    A 180 degree turn on a car company's national perception, and acceptance, in 15 years, would be a prodigious achievement.

    If Hyundai is wise, they will not attempt to force America's hand, and show reasonable patience and diligence.

    Produce a sound marketing strategy, and a business plan that doesn't include Lexus or BMW in their bullet points. These things take time. Invest it wisely. ;)

    DrFill
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    ...Fill thinks Hyundai is a great company so long as they don't dare challenge his precious Toyota, nor does anyone imply that their cars are as good. ;)

    Until gets a job selling Kias anyway. :shades:

    You know, IBM used to think the way you/Toyota do. They woke up one day and found themselves completely irrelevant, and are still having trouble realizing it. Maybe Toyota has the same problem, hmmm?
  • manegimanegi Member Posts: 110
    You are assuming Dr Fill is the spokesperson of Toyota. If he thinks that Hyundai is not a threat, that does not automatically imply that Toyota does so too.

    Japan got burned in the 90s by underestimating Korea and China - They have learned their lesson, and that is the reason they are coming back now (with the lowest unemployment rate ever in their history)....so hard to believe that Toyota is sitting in their own bubble ...
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    >Let it be. Any car that goes 10 years gets a medal.

    That's exactly how I've felt about my last several cars that made it for 10 years and were running strong.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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