Toyota Fearing Hyundai?

imidazol97

>Who cares?
>Sounds like enviable performance to me. Why question it?

I care. The post was in response to one about higher-priced parts. How much did the two things cost? Is there some cost factor we're hiding?

drfill

I seem to remember it differently.

The very site you are on now says the Rav4 easily bests the Santa Fe. :surprise:

Ditto Camry vs. Sonata. :surprise:

DrFill

goodegg

I seem to remember it differently.

Yup - and I could dig up other comparos giving a diametrically opposite opinion to the ones Backy cites.

gagrice

Produce a sound marketing strategy, and a business plan that doesn't include Lexus

I'll bet there are some Lexus dealers wishing they never heard of Hyundai about now. They will be losing sales in the SUV market. Hyundai went for the throat of Lexus when they built the Veracruz. The RX is the only SUV that Lexus has that is selling at all. And Hyundai is going to cut into that pie. You got to love it. The Azera looks more like a head to head aimed at the best selling Lexus ES350. Wonder how they would match up in a comparo. Better make hay while you can. ToyLex is in for some good competition from their Korean neighbors.

backy

Please re-read my post. I said nothing about the RAV4 and Santa Fe. I was quite clear about which cars beat which cars. For example, here's the Edmunds.com review where the 2006 Sonata beat the 2005 Camry (I said 2006 before, but they actually tested a 2005 Camry; there were no significant changes in the 2006 model):

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=106434/pageNumber=1

And here's the C/D review where the 2006 Sonata beat the 2006 Camry:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/10245/mid-size-comparo.html

And here's the Edmunds.com Most Wanted from 2003, in which the previous-gen Elantra bested the current Corolla:

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2003/77150/article.html

And here's the C/D review in which the previous-gen Elantra bested the current Corolla:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2505/double-dip-dreamboats.html

And here's the C/D review in which the current Elantra bested the current Corolla:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11873/2007-toyota-corolla-le-vs-2006-honda-civic-lx-vs-2007-hyundai-elantra-se-vs-2007-mazda-3s-touring-vs-2007-volkswagen-rabbit-vs-2007-nissan-sentra-20s.html

C/D's review where the Veracruz tops the RX350 is on the newsstands now, not posted online yet (that I can find).

I can throw in a few more if you wish, e.g. the 2007 Edmunds.com Most Wanted where the Accent bested the Yaris and the Azera bested the Avalon, but I think this is enough examples to show that Hyundai is very close to Toyota in terms of their products--not 15-20 years behind as you would like people to think--maybe because you will not be selling Toyotas in 15-20 years?

joe97

Again with your confusing rant.

if Camry lost sales

With the inclusion of the hybrid model, increased fleet units, and the extra day of selling, yeah the numbers just looked so much prettier

I don't care if you like Toyota or not, but the respect....I'm not feelin' it.

You endless attempts to run Toyota down to Hyundai's level have met someone who puts his foot down on that nonsense.

And that foot is me!

Wow you do sound like every other Toyota salesperson I've met...now why do they all have to be so arrogant?

My beef is that someone doesn't like the styling and you had to refuted it with some sales figure. It's called someone's preference, and you are trying to draw correlation with sales figure???

Go back and check my posts - how many times have I given kudos to Toyota e.g. where they are at this point in history; I also distinctly recall I said just yesterday while not the best-in-class, the Corolla is a great vehicle, and more stuff over the years.

Calling my posts nonsense? When was the last time your posts made any sense? When was the last time you even gave the slightest credit to Hyundai? Didn't think so.

The difference between you and me? You have an agenda, for me, regardless how the two automakers do, or the rest of industry, I'm not breaking a sweat

You can sugarcoat anything you'd want to but when you are out of line, which has happened more than frequent, be warned there are lots of knowledgeable posters here. It's not about taking sides with one automaker or the other, well not for you , but opinions aside, posting objective information is what most of us are about.

joe97

MotorTrend: Veracruz vs. RX (PDF file)

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/images/asset_upload_file728_15692.pdf

stever

Interesting review, and you can see why Hyundai got MT to let them reproduce it.

The premium fuel requirement would be the Lexus deal killer for me.

Ok, the price for either is a deal killer (more value in a minivan for me). :shades:

hondoyota

I dare say that Toyota is one of the most intelligent automobile makers ever.

They are usually excellent at predicting the most in-demand cars to make at the right time, and marketing them to the right people.

Although Hyundai is becoming more of a worthy competitor, Toyota is much to humble, light on it's feet, and disciplined to let Hyundai get the better of them.

Personally, I don not see hyundai becomming any more of a threat to Toyota than Honda or Nissan currently are.

Hyundai is just another competitor to keep toyota on it's toes.

carguy58

"They should be fearing Honda hacking into their U.S. sales."

No, Honda is way behind Toyota in US sales so far in 2007:

Toyota sales YTD US sales 2007: 1.085 million units.
Honda sales YTD US sales 2007: 625,000 units sold.

joe97

I'd agree with your assessment. It should not be forgotten how far Toyota has come along to be where they are today, and it is clearly evident they are certainly continuing its way of life, despite a few hiccups and obstacles during the process.

Similarly for Hyundai, facing insurmountable of problems then, turning around when everyone counted them out. Now the automaker has settled, and made a name for itself. Hyundai has become a force to be reckoned with - while still lots of work ahead but they are taking the challenges head-on.

carguy58

"Not my story. Wall Street Journal said Toyota sales were 4.3% off from last year in the USA. I just copied from online."

"Toyota's sales in April fell 4.3% from April 2006, according to Autodata Corp. Ernest Bastien, a U.S. Toyota executive, said consumers appear "tentative" and are exhibiting a "wait-and-see" attitude."

So, for the month of the April of 2007 that you are talking about Total automobiles sales combined for all brands that are sold in the US were down 7.5% so Toyota beat the industry average by only being down sales wise 4.3% for the month of April 2007.

msindallas

I am in the market for a loaded minivan. I priced the Sienna XLE Limited with option #4 at $35K. After reading through this thread, I priced an Entourage for $29K. Both are OTD price (my estimates). At this point, my comparison:

For Toyota:
1. HID headlights and dynamic cruise control
2. Extra engine power of about 25HP

For Hyundai:
1. $6K in savings
2. Extra 2 year warranty (36mo vs. 60mo)
3. No pressure to buy Paint Sealant, Rental assistance, etc.

Being a minivan, 25HP shouldn't make much of a difference, and I can get the aftermarket HID lamps installed for $400. From Edmunds threads, people have had bad experiences with squeaking liftgate, steering wheel vibrations, rattle, etc., but always got taken care of by Hyundai. Both have some unlucky customers getting lousy mpg and the dealer wont acknowledge a problem.

I've been a loyal Toyota customer for more than a decade now, but thinking about switching. If there are more customers like myself, Toyota ought to do something about it. Any idea how Toyota is going to stop me, or do they even care?

hause7

First off, i don't feel Toyota has to worry about anyone. Also i own a 04 sienna limited and love it, so if you were shopping for an 07 sienna and entourage i could see where you are coming from. I am looking to upgrade my current 04 in for an 07. I have 3 reasons why i am staying with Toyota. The quality/reliability is unbelievable, the service is great, and Toyota resale value. Hyundai can't say that, they were the worst in resale value. there were like 5 models on the top 10 list of worst residual value. You mentioned the 25 HP difference, and it is very noticeable, the sienna weighs 350 pounds lighter than the Entourage(4250 sienna, 4600 the Entourage). i test drove a kia sedona with the same engine and it was no quicker than my 04 sienna, matter of fact the 0-60 times from consumer guide quoted the sienna at 8.7 sec. and the kia/Hyundai vans at 8.4. The new 07 sienna does 0-60 under 7.5 seconds, thats very fast for a minivan. Also for towing, the sienna is the best choice. I don't mean to bash the hyundai and Kia vans, but after the test drive i can tell you the extra 3-5K dollars is well worth it in a sienna or odyssey.

carguy58

"More like 20-25 years ago. Toyota had just redefined the family car market with the 1992 Toyota Camry, and had been building Lexus for 3 years, plus "the Most Trouble Free Car In America", the Toyota Cressida for the previous 3-4 years."

Yeah I would suspect saleswise in the US that Hyundai is where Toyota was 25 maybe even 30 years ago. However, product wise the gap is much more narrow between Toyota and Hyundai I think. Hyundai just does not have that inmage for long term reliability wise with the American car buying public that Toyota has. As I mentioned before I really like the 07 Elantra excpet for the styling(the back end is bland) although the designers did do a good job with the overall shape of the bodystyle. The Sante Fe im impressed with too although the back end talights are a little weird looking but the rest of the car looks pretty good and no wonder why its selling well.

I really think Hyundai should stop marketing their cars against BMW, Lexus, and Land Rover because I thought Hyundai commercials before all the comparo's too snob appeal luxury brands weren;t flashy but were pretty pleasent commercials to watch.

snakeweasel

Ah thats how the game is played, if everyones sales goes down Toyotas sales drop is explained away while everyone else its bad news and an indication that Toyota is better.

snakeweasel

Couple of things to note, Hyundai has 5 years of roadside assistance so if you lock your keys in the car or run out of gas they will come and help you out. Secondly if your getting a minivan expect bad mileage from it, those things are not exactly fuel sippers.

On thing I liked about the Entourage is that the back windows actually roll down, not sure if the Toyota does that since I haven't looked at that one.

snakeweasel

The quality/reliability is unbelievable,

Not any more or less believable than just about anyone else. funny thing is I recently had a Toyota salesman tell me that.

Toyota resale value

Thats one of the biggest non reasons to buy a car. Usually, as with the case of Toyota, you pay for that higher resale value up front. Paying $6K more now to sell it for $5-6K more 4-5 years down the line is not a good deal in my book.

Case in point a comparable Toyota or Honda to my Hyundai would sell for about $2,000-$2,500 more but it would have cost me at least $3K more. Again not a good deal in my book.

You mentioned the 25 HP difference, and it is very noticeable

Most people will never notice the 25 HP difference in the two vans Its not as the Hyundai has 175 HP its almost 250 which is well enough for everyday use. The Hyundai should have no issues keeping up with traffic or merging onto highways.

Plus 0-60 times especially in a mini van are jokes.

imidazol97

>the 0-60 times from consumer guide quoted the sienna at 8.7 sec. and the kia/Hyundai vans at 8.4. The new 07 sienna does 0-60 under 7.5 seconds, thats very fast for a minivan.

I doubt any minivan driver is going to "notice" the difference between 8.7 sec vs 8.4 sec 0-60 times, alleged, when they accelerate to merge with their two little ones in the back seat. I don't picture "Mom" doing 0-60s merging.

A difference of 1.5-2 seconds more in 20-50 times, or a transmission engagement lag, where the typical traffic merge speeds might lie could be noticeable.

Frankly it's the torque the motor puts out at lower speeds where the motor runs accelerating from a stopsign that people notice. That coupled with a final drive ratio and transmission gearing and a proper ability to shift and cooperate with the motor on the transmission's/software's part is important.

Driving a vehicle that's past the initial few hundred miles is the best way to see how it performs. A tight, new motor on a test drive is not typical.

0-60 times are something that impresses the highly competitive crowd-men in their teens-twenties. I recall when I was happy that a car I wanted to buy had 10 more horsepower the next year; couldn't tell difference after I had one, but I thought it was better because of the higher horsepower.

goodegg

Well you sure rained on that guy's Toyota parade. I know you HATE Toyota. Too bad for you most of the American public doesn't share the same mentality towards your beloved brand. Let's disparage the best van in this class to make the quirky Hyundai van appear better. Nice going.

Maybe all the Hyundai clubbers on this thread will clap along with your assessment, but when the Sienna outsells the Entourage 10 to 1, Toyota will be doing the clapping.

bobad

Good post honyota, and I agree with everything you said. However, there's a major factor that many of us are overlooking in this debate. That would be Hyundai's aggressiveness and determination. They are very much determined to compete with the leaders immediately, not wait 10 years. They are willing to spend billions to develop new, high quality automobiles that truly are on par with the leaders. They are willing to build huge, efficient plants that are second to none. They are willing to back their product with the best warranty in the industry. They are willing to call out the competition with high dollar ad campaigns. They are willing to forego the huge profits their competitors are making in order to increase their market share. They are willing to close down underacheiving dealerships that don't reflect well on their product. They are making all the right moves, and doing so at stunning speed. I think the competition should fear Hyundai's aggressiveness most of all. That aggressiveness started benefiting smart car buyers a couple of years ago, and will benefit Hyundai buyers a great deal in the near future.

backy

First, the Odyssey is generally regarded as the best minivan, the target for others to shoot for. Second, what is "quirky" about the Entourage? Professional reviewers compare it (and its twin the Sedona) very favorably against the Odyssey and Sienna.

carguy58

"Ah thats how the game is played, if everyones sales goes down Toyotas sales drop is explained away while everyone else its bad news and an indication that Toyota is better."

No I didn;t say everybody else was bad news because their(fill in car brand here) sales were down. I never said Toyota was better than any other car maker since I was just pointing out that Toyota's sales dip percentage wise for the month of April of 2007 was under the industry average on a percentage wise basis for that particular month of sales.

I happen to be Honda and Mazda fan myself and prefer those 2 manufacturers over Toyota so obviously I am not pro-Toyota but I was just pointing out a sales numbers stat on a percentage wise basis having to with Toyota's April 2007 sales vs the industry average of total automobile sales being down on a percentage wise basis.

gagrice

Sienna outsells the Entourage 10 to 1

To keep this on an accurate basis. Sienna currently (as of May) was selling 4.8 Siennas to each Entourage. Sienna sales are down 10% over last year. They have sold 7000 less Siennas. Interestingly Entourage has sold 7000 more this year to date. Was that 7k buyers that got smart and shopped around.

Also Sienna is 5th in van sales in the USA. Not all that impressive. Maybe quality issues are translating into lost sales. The Honda Ody also lost sales over last year and are still ahead of Sienna.

Hyundai & Kia both have passed Nissan in Mini Van sales. If they can get production up they will be nipping at the Sienna sales. Together they sold 5044 vans in May. Not that far behind the Sienna with 12k units sold.

drfill

It would be wise to compare a Sienna XLE, not Limited, to a Entourage Limited. Leaving out options, the price difference is approx $1500. Hyundai doesn't offer a vehicle comparable to an XLE Limited.

Then the power-to-weight ratio, gas mileage, resale value, extra towing capabilities and ease ,and extra cargo and passenger room should bring you to the right minivan.

You are about 150 miles away from soemone who would like to earn your business.

DrFill

bpizzuti

Right minivan...you're going to sell him a Dodge Grand Caravan? :shades:

gagrice

Year to date sales as of May 07
Caravan YTD 94220 May 18236
Odyssey YTD 64822 May 15235
Ford E Van YTD 64521 May 14691
Chrysler T&C YTD 66951 May 14379
Sienna YTD 60569 May 12837
Entourage YTD 8467 May 2544
Sedona YTD 21122 May 2500
Quest YTD 12753 May 2228

imidazol97

WOW.

160,000 for Caravan/T&C van model. Odyssey, 65000. Siena, 60000.

carguy58

Year to date sales as of May 07
Caravan YTD 94220 May 18236
Odyssey YTD 64822 May 15235
Ford E Van YTD 64521 May 14691
Chrysler T&C YTD 66951 May 14379
Sienna YTD 60569 May 12837
Entourage YTD 8467 May 2544
Sedona YTD 21122 May 2500
Quest YTD 12753 May 2228

Ford dropped out of the Mini-van segment when the Freestar was dropped a year or 2 year year ago so why would you put the Ford E-Van in the sales stats that you posted?

gagrice

I stated vans. Of the vans available to the US buyer only the E series and Sprinter have diesel engine options. So they would be my only choice. Autosite groups all vans together for sales. If you want to be nitpicking that makes Sienna 4th Mini van. Though I would hardly call that monstrocity MINI. I believe it is as big as my 1974 full size Dodge van. I'm sure it weighs as much.

carguy58

"Also Sienna is 5th in van sales in the USA. Not all that impressive. Maybe quality issues are translating into lost sales. The Honda Ody also lost sales over last year and are still ahead of Sienna."

Yeah but on a percentage wise basis are overall segment wise are mini-van sales down or up this year vs last year and by what number percentage wise are Sienna sales down? That would be the proving stat percentage overall wise overall: mini-van sales on a percentage wise basis up or down basis vs the Sienna sales decline basis percentage wise 2007 YTD vs 2006 YTD.

stever

Got Mazda5 ytd sales figures handy?

The Sedona got dinged a few years ago because their mileage was lousy. Now it looks like it (and the Entourage) are getting a more normal, if mediocre, 18ish mixed per fueleconomy.gov - the Sienna gets 19 combined.

The 5 comes in at 22 combined but it has a 4 cylinder instead of the more common sixes in the minivans.

gagrice

YTD on the Mazda5 is 7213.
They have it listed as an SUV for some reason.

PS
It is 20 inches shorter than a Sienna.

backy

If someone is looking for a leather interior, such as on the Entourage Limited, the comparable Sienna is the XLE Limited. If someone wants just a cloth interior, then they could go with the Entourage SE ($26,395 MSRP after rebate or $25,895 for current Hyundai owners) or the Sienna XLE ($28,625 after rebate), or even one of the lower trims.

Re the advantages you posted, if someone is into heavy-duty towing, they won't buy a minivan. If they need AWD in a minivan, the Sienna has the advantage there. It also has a little more cargo capacity than the Entourage. The Sienna gets 1 mpg better per EPA than the Entourage. If you are doing drag racing in your minivan, then maybe a couple extra tenths of a second 0-60 will be useful on the Sienna. The buyer can decide if those advantages outweigh a $3000-5000 higher price (not factoring in financing costs or interest on the money saved over 5-6 years) and Hyundai's superior warranty.

For supposedly having such a great minivan, Toyota doesn't sell too many of them, given its big advantage over Honda in number of dealerships.

stever

PS
It is 20 inches shorter than a Sienna.

I'm guessing my first minivan, a SWB Plymouth Voyager, was at least a foot shorter than the new vans. That's a good thing in my book.

Ok, the '89 Voyager was 175.9" on a 112" wheelbase. The Sienna is a garage busting 201" as is the Ody. The Entourage is even bigger at 202". Yikes.

The 5 comes in at 181.5".

No wonder I liked the Voyager's body so much - it was practically a subcompact.

carguy58

"For supposedly having such a great minivan, Toyota doesn't sell too many of them, given its big advantage over Honda in number of dealerships."

Yeah I am kinda shocked as gagrice posted even as a Honda fan that the Oddessy outsells the Sienna. I didn;t think that was the case. BTW, does Toyota have many more dealerships than Honda has? I would think Honda has near as many as dealerships as Toyota has.

backy

I like the short minivans myself and am sad they are going away after the 2007 DCX vans exit. I owned a '91 SWB Caravan (100 hp 4-banger; actually got a speeding ticket in it once, driving fully loaded across Texas) and now have a '02 MPV, and I think it's just the right size for 99% of my family's needs. I read that Kia was going to come out with a SWB Sedona this year, but now I wonder if they decided to bring in the Rondo instead.

backy

Yes, it's something like 1500 to 1000 in favor of Toyota. Maybe someone has the exact numbers. I think it's important to keep number of stores in mind when comparing sales; e.g. when you look at per-store sales, Camry and Accord are neck and neck in sales, and that doesn't take into account all the fleet sales for the Camry. It's pertinent in this discussion since Hyundai has way fewer stores than Toyota, and Hyundai's dealerships tend to be much smaller based on my experience.

gagrice

I always liked the looks of the Mazda MPV. Thought it was just right size wise.

stever

Mine was the 4 banger too, but never a ticket. :shades: The 170 horses in the '99 Quest seem huge in comparison (and that's plenty for us btw). It's 194.8" long and if I park carefully, I can manage to walk around it parked in the garage.

The Sedona isn't too bad I suppose at 189.4".

carguy58

"Yes, it's something like 1500 to 1000 in favor of Toyota. Maybe someone has the exact numbers. I think it's important to keep number of stores in mind when comparing sales; e.g. when you look at per-store sales, Camry and Accord are neck and neck in sales, and that doesn't take into account all the fleet sales for the Camry."

Normally I would agree with you that Camry and Accord are neck and neck in sales usually but with the exception of last month when the Camry sold 50K units last month when compared to the Accord's 31K last month.

nippononly

has 1200 dealers in the U.S., per the last press release I read this year. I would think Honda has less, but not many less. The number of dealers is probably about the same ratio between them as their sales of minivans...

The Dodge Caravn sells like 65% fleet, so when that goes away this year you will see those Caravan numbers come sailing WAY down...

This is the first year that the Kia van (now with its Hyundai-badged counterpart) wasn't in the class cellar for fuel economy or acceleration. Now it seems that all the vans left on the market (excluding 4-cylinder Caravans, about to go away, and the pesky Mazda5!) are virtually identical in the numbers so it will be interesting to see what happens in the minivan wars. Especially if Chrysler's road ahead is so rocky that something happens to the Grand Caravan.

drfill

You get leather on Entourage LTD, but not power passenger seat, which is std. on XLE Sienna.

If you look up a comparison, they are pretty equally matched, in features. Not that Entourage is Sienna's equal. :P

DrFill

backy

Yes, and Edmunds.com agrees with you that the Entourage is not the Sienna's equal. They think the Entourage is better than the Sienna. They made the Entourage (and its twin the Sedona) their Honorable Mention for Most Wanted Van, behind the Odyssey.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2007/117217/article.html

goodegg

Camry and Accord are neck and neck in sales

Huh? Maybe a giraffe's neck. The Camry outsells the Accord by a HUGE number (not sure why - the Accord is a better ride in my book)

backy

You're right, turns out the 1500 number includes Lexus dealers. As of April 2007, there were 1224 Toyota/Scion dealers in the U.S. I still think if you take out the Camry fleet sales, same-store sales of Accords and Camrys is very close, remarkable given the Camry is all-new and the Accord is on its last couple of months in present form.

joe97

If I was in the market for one, certainly safety has to be one of the top attributes/factors on my list. There is nothing more than satisfaction and validation to see top scores from both NHTSA & IIHS, for the Entourage and Sedona.

joe97

Kia has SWB Sedona available at dealers, IIRC.

Kia certainly has the minivan market covered, with the availability of Rondo, Sedona SWB & LWB.

nippononly

Camry is at around 12% fleet, currently, which means that even in retail sales alone it is ahead of Accord by a decent margin.

And of course Accord is coming off 18 straight months of the most strenuous incentivizing (in various forms, including visible stuff like special leases and behind-the-scenes stuff to dealers) in Honda's history with that model.

Which is not to say that Camry is the better car, my opinion for one is exactly the opposite. But Camry does cover a wider spectrum than the Accord, and indeed than most other midsize makes. Does Sonata come in more than two trims? Will Hyundai do a hybrid Sonata eventually, or a diesel or something?

joe97

That fleet % is increasing for the Camry, according to my friend at Polk.

Also, notice the Camry has already started attractive lease rates. I am surprised Toyota has already marched into the $199/month lease terms.