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I read a couple months ago that there is a good possibility that Navistar International will produce Hyundai's first truck possibly by 2011. They have been in talks. Navistar also will likely produce the Titan's diesel engine.
I have lived in the Chicagoland area all of my life and four wheel drive is not needed except for those who off road. Believe it or not we hardly get any snow anymore since about 1989. The weather pattern changed dramatically here (global warming?).
"..doing what Toyota does best and hide the fact just like the sludge problems that they were forced to admit to when the lawsuits came...."
Sure are some dire predictions--all kinds of doom and gloom there!! Better run out and unload all those Tundras--quick!!
But...wait a minute....!!!
Is there a possibility there really are only 20 camshafts that went bad? After all, it was announced immediately after the launch, and Toyota came right out with it--up front and all.
It could be said that Toyota was being honest and above board, and after all, we're not hearing complaints about busted camshafts, are we?
Now that darn old (very old BTW) sludge thing---didn't the lawsuit (a record growth industry these days BTW) say something about Toyota bore no blame for the problems people had but stood behind their product for goodwill and customer satisfaction??
And haven't the independent experts said that the cause hasn't yet been determined--I believe the wording used is something like 'to date, the cause hasn't been determined, but some of the problem had to do with too long between oil changes'?
Gosh--there really are two ways to look at these issues!!
If you mean excuses as facts, then you would be correct.
IIRC, there has been around 30,000 5.7L V8 Tundras built at the time of the initial incident, let's just hope the number is only 20 and not any more...
Camshafts are not something to be taken lightly - FYI.
It's that simple.
We try to get what we like for what we can afford, and what fits our needs.
This keeping up with the Joneses is not for us in this family.
Anyhow, 90% of the vehicles in my area are trucks, so, we are definitely not trying to keep up with the Joneses( we never owned a truck, and most likely never will, no matter who builds it).
Sorry 2 digress.
Buy what ya like, I say. We do.
This is simply wishful thinking by a staunch domestic supporter. Enjoy the little clouds that come by every so often. If you hold your breath waiting for more camshaft problems we'll have to call an EMS team to your assistance soon. But you are entitled to a little enjoyment occasionally.
Truck sales through May 2007 vs May 2006:
Silverado.... 290K vs 272K ... +6.6%
Sierra.......... 84K vs 81K ..... +3.9%
F150......... 290K vs 335K ... - 13.5%
Ram.......... 154K vs 151K ... +2.0%
Tundra.......... 61K vs 48K .... + 24.7%
Titan............ 29K vs 33K ....-14.9%
TOTALS...... 908K vs 920K ... -1.3%
I couldn't agree more, and I'm fully aware of the gravity (big $) of a camshaft failure, not to mention inconvenience.
Taking potshots at any automaker in the absence of credible information, isn't something to be taken lightly either IMO.
However, if one considers him/herself "in a fight" against that automaker, I guess we have to take into consideration where those potshots come from.
IIRC, there has been around 30,000 5.7L V8 Tundras built at the time of the initial incident, let's just hope the number is only 20 and not any more...
Camshafts are not something to be taken lightly - FYI.
Saw a Veracruz on the street - nice-looking vehicle. It and the Acadia are the class styling leaders IMHO.
By contrast, the "RAV4 on steroids" look of the new Highlander will not compare favorably when it arrives this summer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ditto on the Veracruz
DrFill
Toyota wants to sell 200k a year, which would be just south of 17k a month.
March just saw the vehicle hitting lots sporaticly. April volume increased, but no CrewMax. May saw everyone getting a fair supply of all models, but 5.7 was in short supply. Demand beat supply.
May exceeded all monthly sales goals. It took Toyota 2 months to get the vehicle where it needs to be, based on capacity.
I don't expect a month below 15k for the forseeable future.
It was implied that Sonata might be having the same problems, but for 18 months? You can believe that if you want......
DrFill
Based on initial impression, I am very much disappointed with the specs of Highlander. Even with the new generation, I can't find much incentive to take the Highlander over the RAV4 V6, at least not thousands in premium. We'll see if my mind would differ after the extensive drive time.
Funny you should say about Hyundai sales staying flat since Toyota sales stayed relatively flat saleswise from 1990-1995 in the US with Toyota selling a little over 1 million units for that 5-6 year period. Of course the US Economy sucked in the early 90's but GM and Ford still had a huge lead on Toyota in US sales in the early to mid 90's. It was 1996 that Toyota started its dramatic sales growth in the US. Yes Toyota had huge sales growth throughout the 80's but its sales numbers in the US relatively stayed flat from 1990-1995.
the second was better gas mileage which it doesn't have.
and the third was a 6 speed MT over a 5 speed which is little more than an extra gear mashed in between the first and the last gear. Wow more shift points a real compelling reason.
So for all of that I should pay more and give up XM radio, a sunroof, stability control and traction control? Not to mention a better warranty and roadside assistance, among other things.
So as I am in the market for a sedan tell me why should I go for the less equipped and more expensive Camry?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
FWIW there have been some major snowfalls here since 89.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Silverado.... 290K vs 272K ... +6.6%
Sierra.......... 84K vs 81K ..... +3.9%
F150......... 290K vs 335K ... - 13.5%
Ram.......... 154K vs 151K ... +2.0%
Tundra.......... 61K vs 48K .... + 24.7%
Titan............ 29K vs 33K ....-14.9%
TOTALS...... 908K vs 920K ... -1.3%
Seems like the F-150 is the big loser in the segement of large pick-up trucks in being down 13.5 percent so far this year and losing 45K units from so far this year when to total YTD 2006.
The Nissan Titan has not sold well at all from the time it was first debut onto the market till now.
I don't think it was a year and half, you might like to re-check your figures.
My understanding there have been three main reasons:
1) Strong Won (increased value of the currency)
2) Strikes (numerous union strikes which affected production greatly)
3) Scandal (also has affected production in greater numbers)
FWIW, demand for small cars have been, and not surprising, very very strong, as are across the industry.
Did you see the cover story from today's WSJ? It appears Toyota has made another miscalculation: building too many plants in the U.S., and locating them too far apart (contrast with Hyundai/Kia, which is deliberately building the new U.S. Kia plant close to the Alabama Hyundai plant for easier sharing). Here's a story from a non-subscription source; there's a link in it to the WSJ story, which requires (free) subscription:
By spreading out its eight factories from Kentucky to California, however, Toyota created logistical problems that added to the cost of producing cars in the U.S. because of rising material and labor costs.
http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.aspx?aID=98475.87552.110617
The article notes other problems at Toyota, including executive in-fighting over strategy, rising wage scales, sluggish sales of some models including the Tundra, and quality problems. This is not the kind of execution that will help Toyota fend off not only Hyundai/Kia, but the five other automakers between Toyota and Hyundai/Kia in sales.
Again, you are stretching. 18 months? Where do you come up with these numbers? Source?
Well Hyundai is on the US auto industry average is far as car sales so far this year being up or down. Hyundai sales are down 1.2% so far this year and total US auto sales among all brands sold in the US are down 1.2%. Meanwhile Toyota is up 8.5% so they are way ahead of the industry average as far as sales growth % wise is concerned.
My understanding there have been three main reasons:
1) Strong Won (increased value of the currency)
2) Strikes (numerous union strikes which affected production greatly)
3) Scandal (also has affected production in greater numbers)
I don't understand how the scandal ivolved declining US sales.
I agree with you about the strikes because it probably effected(declining)early production numbers of the newly redesigned 07 Elantra compact sedan and the Elantra is a very important car saleswise for Hyundai in the US as well know.
How did the won effect Hyundai sales Joe in the US. Can you please explain more clearly on how the won effected Hyundai's US sales numbers?
Here's what DRfill is trying to say here:
2005 Hyundai's US sales numbers: 455K units sold
2006 Hyundai's US sales numbers: 455K units sold
2007 Hyundai's US sales numbers so far this year vs at this time last year: 187K units(May 2007 YTD) vs 189K units(May 2006 YTD.)
I don't the general car buying public is very aware of the scandals, but that's a lot of diversion to happen internally. It had to deflect management's attention from manufacturing and marketing to some degree I'd think.
Hyundai scandal could hurt automaker's growth (CNN)
The chairman got three years but that's on appeal. Prosecutors want him imprisoned for six years. He's still free on bail and running Hyundai (although he was in jail for two months early on). (newsfactor.com)
A strong currency (Won) hurts demand of vehicles aboard, as they become more expensive, generally speaking. We are seeing the opposite case for the Yen (Japan). Also the profit is trimmed since fewer won is generated when the currency is exchanged.
European vehicles have always had higher asking price, part of which has to do with currency issues.
Actually, foreign automakers investment in the US (e.g. plant) is a good idea, especially considering the weak dollars having been in placed for a while now. Not a good thing but the big three benefits the most, actually.
If you are going to be doing extensive testing of the new Highlander, I would love to hear your comparative impressions between it and the Veracruz.
And Doc: no matter what the Tundra does from here on out, the sales numbers will be highly contentious because never in its history has Toyota piled this much cash on the hood, and even when it got into four digits it was usually only at the end of the model cycle. The incentives on the new Tundra have now reached the point of being outlandish, and were IMO a bad move on Toyota's part.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now there's a source to bank on.
I think Toyota will cope regardless of Arkansas Business' assessment.
Maybe you should tell that to the folks that waited up to a year or more for a Prius. Toyota took at least 2 years to get up to speed on the Prius. Maybe Toyota just did not like selling cars at a loss. You tell me why a big company like Toyota had problems keeping up with demand.
How long does it take to build a new modern plant such as the ones than Hyundai has built? Selling all you make is better than having excess inventory as can be seen on Toyota lots right today. Toyota has new Tundras stacked sky high and rebates to match.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But..
The Highlander is entirely different even now before the new one arrives. It rides much much nicer and quieter. There is no comparison. The RAV is 'sportier' for sure but for someone wanting to be isolated from the road the RAV is not the vehicle. With the longer-wider wheelbase of the new Highlander it should be even more stable, quieter and smoother. These are two entirely different markets.
If building Prius' were easy, Hyundai might be doing it. Maybe. :P
DrFill
I just left the dealership, and one family test drove 4 vehicles, the 4Runner, V6 Rav4, Highlander V6 and Hybrid. this took about 2 hours.
Highlander V6 is a strong value, as the hot Rav4 has zero incentives, but if a $27k Rav4 V6 isn't the one, I'd go to the Hybrid, if the budget allows. Virtual V8 grunt, a smooth powertrain, better road isolation than Rav4, and 5-6 MPG better than any of the others. And there are incentives on all HL as the new one approaches.
The current HL is a solid choice, and sales show as much.
DrFill
As I've said here before, I wouldn't go above $1500 or 4.9%.
The numbers will come. Toyota should be very happy with 175k-180k this year, and potentially 225-250k next year. Toyota can treat this like a project, not life-or-death. They have multiple streams of income. The commercials (cited by many customers) and a test drive really should get it done.
But to crack a domestic market, Toyota may feel it needs to sell the truck in a domestic way. I don't know. :confuse:
DrFill
Second, that kind of makes my point about Hyundai not being in Toyota's league, if you need to go back two decades to make a somewhat flawed point, no?
Three, what do you mean "relatively flat"? The autoworld is "relatively flat" compared to Toyota's 7-10% yearly increases, for the last decade.
With the new companies that have arrived in the last 20 years, including Hyundai, Toyota's success is that much more significant. :surprise:
Try increasing your slice of pie when there are an extra 3-4 knives on the table. Neat trick.
Only it's not a trick. This was all planned out. Lexus. Scion. Crossovers. Planned their work. Worked their plan. It didn't take perfection, just dedication, and an ear to the ground. That's really the key. Toyota may know what you want before you even know you want it.
Customers seem to agree.
But Toyota is just a big rep, and not much else, so I guess it's all a bowl of Lucky Charms, eh? Some guys get all the luck. :mad:
DrFill
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117634208128767214-search.html?KEYWORDS=toyota+tundra&COLLECTION=wsjie/6month
And quote of the day, or yesterday, about the Toyota Tundra:
"I took a good look at it today. I think it's a very, very, very well executed large truck. It's got good styling, great interior. It's a very nice truck."
Your biggest fan, Bob Lutz, 01/07
DrFill
I think most of the anti-Toyota people are GM fans or "Buy American people" and get ticked off is because Toyota is a Japanese Company as well so each individual retail sale that Toyota makes hurts Detroit's Ecomomy too. Look how many jobs Ford and GM have had to cut as well because of Toyota's success in the US(looking at it from an American Car Fans prespective.) See, add in as well in 1998 Toyota only had an 8.5 market share in the US, now Toyota outsells Ford and Chrysler which they(toyota) didn;t do that 10 years ago so thats another thing that Toyota detractors look at as well I think.
I think in 1998 Chrysler had a 17.5 market share, GM had 28% of the market, and Ford maybe had 22-23 percent of the US market and Toyota only had 8.5 percent of the US market at the time. I was thinking about this the other day Ford has lost 1 point of market share with each passing year since 1995 I think while Toyota has picked up 1 point each passing year since 1998 or 1999 I think.
I really don;t understand the hatred for toyota either they are just any other company in that they are trying to make a profit. See, I don;t look at wether an individual Car Company comes from an Japanese or American Company I look at it and I see what car I like and I buy it. I really don;t take in part on what company or what country of origin that the company is that I buy the car from is( well now anyway.) I used to think American Companies sucked but I don;t think that anymore. If a car company doesn't have a car that I don;t like I don;t buy from them because that company didn;t have the kind of car that I needed for me. I would never buy a German Car but thats whole entire subject for a different thread.
I'm pretty postive that the chart I looked at it that had sales numbers(1982-2004) from the Domestic Big 3, Japanese Big 3 and VW did inculude Lexus sales numbers for Toyota heck even Saab's sales numbers were added in for GM's sales numbers starting with the 1997 model year and Mercedes sales numbers were added in too for Chrysler's sales numbers for the 1998 or the 1999 year.
"Three, what do you mean "relatively flat"? The autoworld is "relatively flat" compared to Toyota's 7-10% yearly increases, for the last decade."
Yes as I said earlier Toyota's big sales gain in the US started to happen around 1996(not 1990-1995 when Toyota was relatively flat saleswise) so we are in 2007 so that would make a decade's time(give or take by one or two years: 1996/1997-2007.)
Overall the whole car industry in the US has been flat saleswise since 2001 or 2002 give or take:
Us auto sales Total 1997/1998: 15.1 million units/15.5 million units.
US auto sales 1999/2000: 16.9 million units/17.3 million units I think.
Us auto sales total 2001: 17.1 million units
US auto sales 2005/2006 total: 16.9 million units/16.5 or 16.6 million units.
"With the new companies that have arrived in the last 20 years, including Hyundai, Toyota's success is that much more significant."
I agree.
"Only it's not a trick. This was all planned out. Lexus. Scion. Crossovers. Planned their work. Worked their plan. It didn't take perfection, just dedication, and an ear to the ground. That's really the key. Toyota may know what you want before you even know you want it."
Ok Toyota's plan has worked but I;m not sure about Scion because the Scion brand has only been around for 4-5 years I think so we'll have to wait and see on how Scion does in the long term although the TC has sold pretty well for the Scion brand. I'll agree with you on the crossovers and Lexus though.
"Customers seem to agree."
Yeah Toyota's huge sales numbers seem to tells the story that yes customers do agree.
"But Toyota is just a big rep, and not much else, so I guess it's all a bowl of Lucky Charms, eh? Some guys get all the luck."
I didn;t say that Toyota just selling on their rep alone however though Toyota's rep is one of the big reasons why they are a big selling car company that they are.
I did not make the blanket statement that a BIG car company would build enough ars for the demand, you did. Where are the CrewMax Tundras? Can't keep up with demand?
If building Prius' were easy, Hyundai might be doing it. Maybe.
Of course they are not easy to build. They are an overly complex car designed to make Toyota money on repairs when the warranty expires. Hyundai has hybrids. They stated it was not profitable to sell them in the USA. What is hard to understand about that? Toyota can afford to spend money on experiments that a smaller company would not be able to do. If Hyundai is smart they will get their diesels 50 state compliant and take advantage of the Tax Credits that Toyota has lived off of for the last 2.5 years.
I wouldn't say that, my contention with Toyota in this forum is bang for the buck. I have discussed the Camry vs Sonata here and my thoughts are that between the two I give up a lot and gain very little going with the Camry over the Sonata. We might be in the market for a mid sized sedan and I cannot see any compelling reason to but the Camry over the Sonata.
There seems to be some sort of anger about the whole thing.
The whole thing about the sales numbers is that there is a certain poster here who uses sales to try to prove that Hyundai is substandard to Toyota which is a false argument.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
>The whole thing about the sales numbers is that there is a certain poster here who uses sales to try to prove that Hyundai is substandard to Toyota which is a false argument.
That problem is that it's a discussion group to present the pros and cons of each company/car line. That can't be done when there are salesmen for one company who jump all over other posters in defense of their car brand. It unbalances the discussion drastically.
I've noticed that Toyota had a representative on the topic about the transmission snap ring issue. That discussion is now closed-can't remember the exact title. The rep was tmussa or something similar to that by screen name. I suspect the fronting on that issue was to mitigate the flare and lag problems still in the transmissions after the Toyota Lexus and toyota Avalon transmission publicity. Is it a push from toyota to put people onto various discussion groups to try to "steer" the discussion? It unbalances things and discourages posters.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I can't disagree more. The '92 Camry was a clear leader in its class when it debuted. It was so good that Toyota used the same platform for the '97-'01 Camry. The Tundra might be a good truck, but there's some excellent competition from GM, Ford, Nissan, even Dodge.
Certainly the Tundra beats Hyundai's full-sized truck offering... since they don't have any, in the U.S. at least. So probably not much fear there on Toyota's part, wrt Hyundai. But they have GM, Ford et. al. to contend with.
Who's doing that. All im saying is that you can't take for granted that Toyota is telling the truth because they have a history of otherwise. Who's to say that Toyota is giving credible information. Do you have some credible information that shows they were telling the truth. Because they say it was at the beginning of a production run to me sounds like they are trying to cover something up and hope that it doesn't hurt their already struggling sales.
Hyundai's are getting better looking thats for sure. There first one (Santa Fe?) was pretty ugly.
Zero incentives? How about national lease special? Various dealers near me are offering cash back as well.
RAV4 V6 starts just under 23.5K (with DPH), by the way.
Toyota is going with $3,500, though
Sure we got a 20" and what a 13", that is about it. The average snow fall is no where near where it used to be. One could almost drive a motorcycle year round in Illinois winters. A winter storm warning here is 4-6 inches, nothing to speak of, just another scare tactic that they push on us.