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Comments
Regards,
OW
Actually
CTS = RWD/AWD
SRX = FWD/AWD
Escalade = RWD/4WD
DTS = no made so it doesn't count anymore.
It will be FWD/AWD.
I can't wait for the ATS - a true 3 series competitor.
"By customer A buying from Company B in Germany or Japan, they give Company A an incentive to improve their product to regain past lost customers, and/or they go out of business, which means were only left with competent companies in our country"
is sadly the ONLY reason our cars are better now than they were 20 years ago...the Big 3 were slowly going downhill with cars that barely qualified as Junk Boat Anchors, but when they saw the japanese market share climbing almost every year, and buyers going back a 3rd time, and folks filling out surverys saying they would NEVER buy a Big 3 car agin, even the UAW took notice...
To say to buy Big 3 to save your neighbor's job sounds like a great slogan, but when your neighbor makes junk, he needs to find a new job because his product is not worth buying...
I was going to say "your neighbor needs to find a new skill" but all KNOW the skill level of the folks who make Big 3 cars, right???...
Greed for management met by even more greed by UAW. No one appreciates they have a job more than the Non-union auto workers. Businesses need to make money by producing great products. Don't blame the competition (or their customers) for the Big 3's failure...it was like taking candy from a baby. They had PPLLLEEEENNNNTY of time to change for the better. They chose to go blindly down the road of huge debt and cut product quality/content/performance/efficiency/desirability. The D3 are Directly responsible for the loss of thousands of jobs DESPITE the bailout because of their failed performance.
When product rules again over greed here in the USA, we will again, prosper beyond all imagination. Jobs will be abundant yet again!
Regards,
OW
Detroit tries to build excitement by doing frequent style refreshes, and introduces new or improved models every 5 years or so, but when cars easily last a decade now and everyone has one, you're looking at replacement purchases more than a commuter yearning to buy something flashy every year or two.
The shift from a consumer society is really going to whack the job market; about the only growth areas I can see are energy, health care and information. Not much manufacturing growth is on the radar, retail is shrinking, and even China is slacking off on the consumer junk. The automakers are diving big into the last area with emphasis on Sync, U-Connect, and OnStar and the other gizmos.
The other big markets are India, China and Africa - not much growth potential in North America compared to those areas. So why build cars here if you plan to ship them halfway around the world?
Exactly. My newest car is four years old and has over 80k on the clock. Not counting my '02 running restoration, my oldest car is fifteen years old and has over 120k on it. If I do buy a car anytime soon I can guarantee it will come from either Hiroshima, Munich, or Zuffenhausen.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So, let me ask you...if your experience with Big 3 cars matches some of the horror stories that have been posted here (frankly, lemko must be a rare exception), having been burned over and over by crappy products, how in the world can you advocate giving MORE of your money to junky car companies, when a competing product was made better???
You are also forgetting something...just because the Big 3 market share dropped, did not mean that put them out of business...their own business practices (free gold plated health care for UAW, lavish pensions, weeks and weeks of paid vacation, exorbitant wages for unskilled labor) is what put them out of business...plus making a product fewer people wanted, but they still sold cars...
You seem to blindly advocate buying a Big 3 car just because they manufactured it...at no time do you seem to recommend that the companies make a GOOD product, or try and improve quality, or chastise the union for their stupid demands, all you expect us to do is line up like lemmings and buy junk just because our neighbor made it...
Why don't you scream at your UAW neighbor that he could have done a better job at quality and not featherbedded the company so bad that they had twice the number of employees they needed to make the car???
You must be incredibly wealthy, because only a wealthy person could advocate buying junk as tho we could trade it in next month and try out another piece of trash...
In 2007 the economists' consensus was that there would be a slowdown in early 2008 and the economy would be rebounding by the 3rd quarter of 2008. We know how wrong that was. Economists have no ability to predict what will happen to the economy - their track record is right up there with astrologers. I wouldn't put any stock in what a newspaper says. They might be right, and they might not be. But their prediction has no value except to sell papers.
Well, if they keep saying it long enough, they'll be right, eventually!
You seem to blindly advocate buying a Big 3 car just because they manufactured it...at no time do you seem to recommend that the companies make a GOOD product, or try and improve quality, or chastise the union for their stupid demands, all you expect us to do is line up like lemmings and buy junk just because our neighbor made it...
But let's keep in mind that although the UAW has plenty of responsibility for what happened in the domestic auto industry, the management of the Big 3 can also share in the blame.
They could have not acquised to union demands. They could have focused on their core business rather than investing in electronic and aerospace firms. They could have made sure their core brands were healthy instead of going out and buying brands all over the world. They could have had car people making car decisions rather than hiring soap peddlers to do so. They could have made unique vehicles across their brands instead of slapping new grille on one and selling it as another.
There were plenty of people in the UAW and in non-union positions that wanted to build and sell a good product.
Absolutely. Which is why both groups should rot on the vine - Wagoner, Lutz, and Gettlefinger, and their corrupt minions.
There were plenty of people in the UAW and in non-union positions that wanted to build and sell a good product.
The problem is that the main publicity about the UAW is how they want more. Even today with King at the helm - he's going to organize the foreign makes and "get more" for the rank and file. Let's see how well that works out. :P
I also see that point and have always acknowledged that it existed...It may have been a good move to buy other car companies (Ford buying Jaguar & Volvo, GM buying Saab) but buying into industries they didn't understand was not the way to go...
BUT...GM did make a big mistake with the look-alike cars, where a Chevy looked like a Cadillac or vice-versa...
But I always lean more to the union as more of the problem, and I go back to so many of the posters who had hoods that didn't line up, doors that were cockeyed, rattles in doors and other areas of the car, parts missing, extra parts put in where they didn't belong...these are the things that consumers see and hear and makes them disgusted with the car they just bought...
The fact that Ford bought Volvo was probably unknown to many Americans, but an annoying rattle on acceleration, or window motors that would not work will impress the buyer much more...
Like it or not, they, American buyers, voluntarily walked into Honda and Toyota showrooms and bought their products...cannon seems not to notice this...he keeps posting to buy American, but has nothing to say about the quality of the American product for the last 25 years, he just says to buy our neighbor's product...if our neighbor makes junk, and millions of American seem to think so, he does not deserve his job and his company does not deserve to exist...
They had more clues than a 7 digit calculator could figure...decreasing market share, cars that would not sell, books written all over about poor quality and reviews in car mags, JD Power surveys that put imports on top, just driving the roads and seeing yourself surrounded by Hondas and Toyotas, and yet, the UAW kept on with their militant attitudes and striking for more...NEVER ONCE DID THEY MENTION PRODUCT QUALITY...
I acknowledge that there MUST be individual UAW members who cared about the product, but not enough to matter...
Americans deserve to buy the best...the UAW could make the best if they cared as much about quality as they do about free Blue Cross, but they don't...
That is why I have little if any respect for UAW people...they are ignorant, stupid, childish, militant, and one step above a welfare entitlement mentality normally reserved for low-IQ people...
When will they learn???
Still waiting...in the meantime, bought an Optima SX. No Big 3 car can match value/performance/efficiency in the sedan category.
They ALWAYS under-deliver because their business model did not change too much....just shed some debt. While their new CAR models are good, only some are EQUAL to the competition.
It's rather comical to still see the Caddy commercials cry "Standard of the World".
Regards,
OW
Management is strongly to blame along with _part_, _part_ of the UAW workers and the leadership of UAW.
It shows the damage done by too many people with too many degrees running the place at GM. They needed someone who could look at a car, who loved cars, and say this is wrong and this is right: fix it. Instead there were people in charge of the car's resulting build and their only concern was their evaluations and their checksheet which affected their bonus. How well the car sold did not affect their pay or bonus.
At the beginning of the book Lutz points out he was criticized for costing a part of the company $50,000 because of lost revenue from selling replacement parts for a part that failed regularly on a certain car. Instead of fixing the problem in the replacement parts, the concern was losing the income from selling replacements. Sort of sounds like Honda and transmissions!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I see you reference Honda/trannys and Toyota/sludge with complete reliability. But statistically those problems pale compared to the GM issues over the ages. Those issues were noteworthy because of how rare problems were with those brands. It's hard to have noteworthy problems with past GMs because there were so many, and none stand out by themselves.
That doesn't surprise me one bit. I was thinking about all the MOPAR replacement parts I was buying, and I realized long ago that the more parts my car needed, the more money Chrysler made because I would need more replacement Mopar parts. The only way to avoid this PONZI like Scheme is to simply not buy the companies product, which is a system I've enjoyed since 1995. Avoiding American cars is a great system to avoid lemons.
"If someone had said they wouldn't have bought a new '65 Mustang because their '49 Ford was bad, we'd have rolled our eyes and considered the guy an inane old f*rt. Yet, that is exactly the norm of thinking of a lot of people on this forum today."
uplander, I just don't think it is quite the same today as it might have been in 1965...back in '65, there really were only a few choices...Big 3, American Motors (Rambler?) and British Leyland to any great extent...the cars were stodgy and I would guess that assembly and technology did not change much from '49 to '65...aside from a little streamlining and more V8 engines, I would guess not THAT much changed at all...and, back then, few people had two cars in the family and probably did not buy a new car every few years, and the car probably did not cost as much of the family income as it does now...
Now, families with 2 kids over 16 may have 4 cars in the family...Dad, Mom, and the kids...that really didn't happen either in 1965, and certainly did not happen in 1949...
We simply have MORE competition today and BETTER competition...fast cars, cars with more luxury than most homes had in 1949, 300 HP V6's that get 31 mpg, etc.
No, I don't believe your analogy works today, whereas it may have been right back in 1949 to 1965...today, someone may have really had 3 or 4 Big 3 lemons, outright defects, extra parts, poor workmanship, etc...for someone today to say they will never buy a Big 3 car again, if they were burned 3 or 4 times in the last 5 to 20 years, may simply make sense...
And that is why the automakers (management and union) seem even more stupid than before...back in 1965, the odds of 3 or 4 lousy cars was probably pretty low, but once the UAW became the militant force it became, quality went out the window and benefits at the expense of quality became the norm...
If you go back to about 1985, when the Japanese invasion started in earnest, that was the worst time for the UAW to pull its crap...over the next 20 years or so, quality went down, lemons and lousy wormanship went up, just when the competition was offering the American public a very good alternative...Honda and Toyota simply took advantage of what they, and everyone else saw, as an arrogant US auto industry that thought they could shove crap down our throats without consequence...
We got tired of it, stopped buying their products as they became more and more like junk, and gave our business to the imports...Big 3 and UAW gave LIP SERVICE to quality but meant it as much as Pelosi talks about creating jobs...so, we simply threw them into bankruptcy because they sold us junk...
To avoid an American product today because of lemons bought in the 80s and 90s makes perfect sense, unless you own stock in the Big 3...with the cost of cars today, paying on them from 4 to 7 years, even ONE lemon may be enough for a buyer to run away forever...that is soemthing the Big 3 may have finally learned, but the UAW has yet to learn, as the closing of the NUMMI Fremont plant shows, as the UAW worker interviewed said, "we lost our jobs but we didn't give into the man"...and this is the kind of worker you want assembling YOUR car???
You can't be serious...
Oddly, the rise of UAW power and the downfall of the quality of American cars is the same as the rise of the power of the NEA and the Dept of Education and the loss of quality of education in the USA...same identical pattern...which proves that union power does the country no good at all...
The next president should pass a national right-to-work law on Jan 21, 2013, which will hopefully start the destruction of the union movement in this country forever...
ROFLMAO!
Take off the blinders. I would post the current transmission problems page about Odysseys on Edmunds and the past(?) problems with Hondas in general--remember the extension of the "warranty" to 100,000 so that people would at least have a working unit of the failing transmission up to 100K.
Or do you want a link to Honda CRV and AC compressors?
>Toyota/sludge
Are you saying sludge (or toyota's euphemism 'gel') wasn't a problem for many who wwere following the Japanese manufacturer's oil change guidelines? Some even having all their work done at the toyota dealerships because they were afraid other places wouldn't take good enough care of their toyota because only toyota dealers could give them that wonderful, knowledgeable service on their toyota 'machine'?
And now even Consumer Reports won't recommend the CIVIC? How dare they not recommend a toyota or Honda! They are the wunderautos of the decade -- oh wait maybe that is right, they were the wunderauto of the past decade. Now their problems are catching up with them.
They all put their wheels on one lugnut at a time. That's what I've been saying since 2000 and thereabouts.
>with past GMs because there were so many
Yup. Read the book.
And also to use other foreign brandphiles' excuses, the problems are magnified by those complaining on the internet. Or all the people with good cars we don't hear about because they aren't posting on the internet. Or there are only a few who post over and over--such as those who never miss a change to criticize my pointing out Honda's and toyota's recent shortcomings, which were usually denied to the end.
Read the posts about Honda wanting $5000 to replace AC compressor. And the same for a transmission on the Honda Odyssey which is the same failed transmission.
But much more important, after reading about alignment problems, fast brake wear, transmissions, AC, Honda's VCM problem, etc., the reaction of the posters toward the company is sounding a lot like some people who had problems with GM cars. They are dumping their wundercar brand and swearing they won't buy another.
In the past Honda did a lot of secret, hidden, out-of-warranty repairs for some people and that bought a lot of attitude that if something broke, it must just have been a singular example of something assembled wrong and the car I chose to buy is still the most wonderful choice I could have made as a purchaser: "I certainly wouldn't want to feel I chose a lesser car company."
>Those issues were noteworthy because of how rare problems were with those brands.
Again, that statement matches a toyota devotee who boasted (before the uncontrolled acceleration problems in various models) that there wasn't a single part on the then new Avalon from the previous (then) generation Camry on which it was based. All I had to do was start through chassis parts, and the parts pieces matched up. That the Avalon was based ont he previous generation Camry was an Edmunds statement in their driving posts on Inside Line. Those perfect cars are just like the others. Regression to the mean.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thanks. You got the point of my post.
That attitude was a major problem to selling more cars that people perceive as being what they want. GM needed (and maybe Chrysler too) a person at the top of each car line or model line that could say, "No. Fix it."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Exactly and your posts are spot on regarding Toyota and Honda. The issues are increasing in the past few years and I agree the new Civic is a disappointment and the Cruze should eat it's lunch as long as GM continues to improve the shortfalls each year. I really like the '12 Focus and might get one for my youngest daughter. The oldest gets the '08 CR-V withe 0 defects so far!!
Both companies better sharpen their swords and quick!
Regards,
OW
Honda will need to improve the car and/or reduce the price in order to win back customers. Great reliability isn't enough (unless the only competition was the Big 3).
Also, the Civic was dropped by Consumer reports a recommended buy. CR is known for pushing Honda/Toyota vehicles. I was shocked to see CR actually beat up on Honda for the new Civic... Reliaiblity is not owned by Honda/Toyota anylonger.
Now, for those who buy what they want at the lowest price. Think a minute, what is the real price of the product, long term price. You buy a Hyundai for instance. Yes, initially you pay the lowest price, get the bells, whistles, ect. You feel great. However, THINK about the longterm effect you are having on your own economic stability, future job prospects, your jobs future, the future ability of our young people to find work, find a decent paying job. Yes, at this time you are sitting pretty in a new car. However, the car is manufactured overseas, contributing to the United States economy very little if any. This is one of the mindset Americans need to break free of. Not thinking about how their purchase may/will affect them, their family, friends in the future. American made goods are still available on the internet. Yes, it may take a day or 2 to get them. But, you have supported an American worker, who pays taxes, who pays bills that supports other American workers.. Get it?
By the way, Dow dropped over 500 points today... Don't think Buying American products and services means anything? Well, you may think differently in about 3-5 months.. Hold on tight.. :sick:
Markets in Japan and China dropped 368 and 938 points respectively. Don't think not buying ONLY AMERICAN means anything?
We're all connected, my friend. This proves you are not up to date on how markets work.
Regards,
OW
Also - It's the Fuller brush man!
Going to MSN data for reliability is like going to Fox for your news. I think Bill Gates must own a lot of stock in the Big 3 because MSN data is useless, inaccurate, and downright wrong. The only good MSN Autos data is Personal USER reviews, not the "experts," and not the "MSN data," which is corrupted, paid for, bribed, coerced, and clearly not scientific.
I was shocked to see CR actually beat up on Honda for the new Civic...
You shouldn't have been, CR is always unbiased, fair, objective, and GIVES IT TO YOU STRAIGHT. The problem is your worldview, and you just couldn't accept facts, facts CR has published for decades. It is scientific, it is accurate, it is truthful, and it is not swayed by corrupt advertising revenues like MSN and JD Power. It can't be bought, bartered, traded, or sold.
CR is known for pushing Honda/Toyota vehicles.
That's an incorrect statement. CR is known for letting people know that Honda and Toyota were making by far the best vehicles, which has been a fact for decades. They don't push anything! The fact is, as far as the Big 3 may have come (only Ford has shown significant gains reliability wise in my view), they still have a ways to go to catch up to Honda and Toyota in LONG TERM reliability, which is what most people car about.
When resale values go up and match Japan's stuff for the big 3, that'll be an indicator that the quality has been matched.
Now, I was going to get a Focus as they have been in the UK and Germany
with great sucess.I don't think I will though. I mean an SE focus sedan with a
fuel saver pkg for $495.00 and you can't get it on any other models I wanted The SEL with the 302 pkg lumbar support I was up to 25k.
I'm going to stick with Japanese ,or German cars.I can get the same fun factor.
Also, I'd feel more secure
What gives?
Regards,
OW
http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el2011-25.html?utm_sourc- e=home
Goods and services from China accounted for only 2.7% of U.S. personal consumption expenditures in 2010, of which less than half reflected the actual costs of Chinese imports. The rest went to U.S. businesses and workers transporting, selling, and marketing goods carrying the "Made in China" label. Although the fraction is higher when the imported content of goods made in the United States is considered, Chinese imports still make up only a small share of total U.S. consumer spending. This suggests that Chinese inflation will have little direct effect on U.S. consumer prices.
Figure 2 shows the share of U.S. PCE based on where goods were produced, taking into account intermediate goods production, and the domestic and foreign content of imports. Of the 2.7% of U.S. consumer purchases going to goods labeled “Made in China,” only 1.2% actually represents China-produced content. If we take into account imported intermediate goods, about 13.9% of U.S. consumer spending is attributable to imports, including 1.9% imported from China.
Since the share of PCE attributable to imports from China is less than 2% and some of this can be traced to production in other countries, it is unlikely that recent increases in labor costs and inflation in China will generate broad-based inflationary pressures in the United States.
All of which why the argument "don't buy a foreign nameplate assembled in the U.S., the profits go back to [pick country]" is silly. It's a lot better for the U.S. economy to buy a US built Honda or Toyota or BMW or Hyundai than a Canadian built uS make, for example.
I agree with you on the "profit" argument, but I refer to that as "corporate overhead" and include other items such as the high level executives and their office buildings as well as the engineers who are designing the next generation of vehicles, all of which benefit the home country.
A LOT of the foreign makes actually have their designers in this country as well. Hyundai comes to mind as an example, I'm sure there are more.
A lot of engineers too.
Aren't vehicles like the Camry, Avalon, Tundra, Sequoia, Titan, Altima, Accord, etc designed primarly for the US market, and by US-based designers?
You are correct, for example, Toyota has ~335 designers and prototypers (concept car designers) in two facilities on the west cost. Hyundia, mentioned above has ~230 spread between three facilities. I do not believe it would be a far cry to say that over 2500 people of a similiar skill set are spread throught the US for all the 'forgeign' automakers.
You are correct, for example, Toyota has ~335 designers and prototypers (concept car designers) in two facilities on the west cost. Hyundia, mentioned above has ~230 spread between three facilities. I do not believe it would be a far cry to say that over 2500 people of a similiar skill set are spread throught the US for all the 'forgeign' automakers.
Dang I didn't know that so I stand corrected, that's good information to know too.