Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The 2nd OPEC oil crisis is what really gave them a segway, though.

    Vocabulary lesson:

    segue - a smooth transtition

    Segway - personal transportation device.

    ;)

    I just don't get why China gets most favored trading nation status. As if they need that help.

    IMHO, strictly polictical. We don't need them threatening us militarily.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ninja Edit - when juice quickly fixes a typo in a previous post. ;)

    My lame excuse: English was my 2nd language.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    So, why is Germany's industrial base apparently thriving?

    ourfuture.org

    Why then is Germany succeeding? A number of reasons, including:

    •Germany benefits tremendously from the low level of the Euro. This currency exchange rate aids in exporting to the U.S. and other industrialized nations.

    •About 80% of Germany's manufacuring GDP come from small- and mid-sized companies. Many of these companies are family-owned and provide niche, specialized products. One example: axle box housing for high-speed rail. Another example: one German company is the primary worldwide supplier of the twist-wire used to hold the corks of champagne bottles.

    •Many of Germany's manufacturers access funding from municipal banks. The banks are local and specifically support neighboring employers. These banks are statutorily directed to assist local businesses.

    •Many German businesses are privately held, and thus are not responsible to vast shareholders and market fluctuations. They can move nimbly and swiftly to respond to market conditions. German labor policy also directs that, during an economic slowdown, workers are shifted to smaller work weeks rather than being laid-off. Similarly, a percentage of wages are set aside during robust times to provide a cushion during lean times. This helps to keep a trained, specialized workforce in continual operation.

    Here in America, we focus too much on large entities and the financial industry and their incessant need for day to day results.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    low level of the Euro

    That's only been recently, though.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    edited November 2011
    There were stories that something on the order of 40% of Georgetown toyota employees were part timers.

    Key word there is stories. Last I saw, it was around 12% for Georgetown. And about 90% of all factories in the US use temp. employees, so it is not out of the ordinary. My plant (not even remotely related to automotive) has averaged 9% temps this year - many of the good ones eventually get hired as conditions allow.

    NO full time employees were laid off at Toyota NA over the past recession.

    Just trying to keep it real, Google it (but use reliable, credible sources) if you want to check.

    Sorry, but there is NO for-profit business that is perfectly ethical. They ALL have the bottom line as their #1 goal. Fortunately (or unforturnately!), my experience has shown me that.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    "Korea makes the nineteenth country to which Toyota exports U.S.-made models."

    How many countries are US-made GMs or Cs shipped to?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    low level of the Euro

    That's only been recently, though.


    That's the one thing I disagree with. The euro is strong vs the dollar. My company imports from the Eurozone and our costs are up 50% in the past 5 years. Perhaps the Euro is weak against other currencies in Europe and Asia.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2011
    How many countries are US-made GMs or Cs shipped to?

    Mexico and Canada are the big ones.

    "Other destination regions for U.S.-made vehicles rank far behind North America: In 2007 Europe received 18% of all new vehicle exports from the U.S., and the Middle East came in third with 10%."

    Looks like the total auto export number for 2007 (new and used) was 2.5 million vehicles.
    U.S. auto exports on the rise (Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago)

    That's from 2008 and a lot has changed since then.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,055
    Wow, looks like they just invented, more or less, a c1996 Honda Odyssey.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    lemko: "The U.S. used to make just about everything and just about everything was well-made from clothes and textiles to military weapons systems. My Dad had to take a job at age 60 at Lowe's after losing his job of 24 years in a manufacturing plant. He once commented, "If everything in this store was made here, nobody would be out of work!"

    I really am not trying to beat a dead horse, but I always question whether labor costs were the reason that so many US plants shut down...in the unionized north, my guess is that business owners saw the handwriting on the wall wth union contracts sending wages for UNSKILLED labor higher than they thought they could pay...remember, it took time to actually set up an overseas plant and train the labor (longer to build the plant because unskilled labor, by definition, means that training time is minimal)...and, the factor I always mention is that we don't know how much the item would have to cost in order to make it here...thinking of the shirts sold in walmart for $12...if they were made by unionized labor I would think the shirts might sell for 2-3 times as much, meaning that customers simply would not buy as much...

    And, one other factor that seems to be overlooked...unskilled unionized US workers seem to believe they have the right to strike for MORE, reagrdless of whether they are worth it or not...work stoppages cost the company MONEY, profits that workers actually think they have a right to some of it...overseas workers do not strike, so as long as the ships are docking, product is made and received on schedule...

    diesel: productivity...that is part of the natural progression as machines do more of the work, or human production is simplified so that fewer workers are needed...if we didn't have productivity improvements then everything would be handmade like it was in the 1700s, and, while employment would be higher, the slowness would mean that fewer items would be make to start with...

    Whoever mentioned this was right...we didn;t seem to mind that we need fewer farmers because we don't use mules and blade plows anymore...who, besides lemko, wouldn't want farmers to use motorized tractors even tho that means that most farmers no longer work the farm...

    I come back to the concept of CHANGE, and we are going thru the biggest changes ever and the people need to keep up...when we didn't need mules and plows, those farmers went to work in the factories as unskilled labor...when we didn't need buggy whip makers they went to work in the factories...we had an OVERABUNDANCE of unskilled/uneducated labor but we also had places for them to go, so the grade school.high school dropouts had a place to work...

    Now, we are eliminating those unskilled jobs, but we still have, and will have, too many uneducated workers that now have no place to go...since we can't stop moving forward technologically, we now have the problem of too many unskilled and uneducated workers but no place for them to go, and the only solution is that the workers must be improved, which is the hardest of all, changing the mindset of the unskilled worker...

    And, with inner city kids mocking their peers who learn to read and write, this does not look good...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    And, with inner city kids mocking their peers who learn to read and write, this does not look good...

    I think gangbangers are terrorists, pure and simple. They don't want others in their neighborhood excelling or influencing any good. I see little, if any difference between city gangbangers and Al Qaeda. But the politicians are too timid and politically correct to crack down hard because they are afraid it might be called racist, even though it is the innocent people in those gangbanger areas that are the biggest victims. This makes the victims, the innocent community members reluctant to cooperate with the police for fear that the inaction will let the bangers seek revenge unimpaired. It's all very pathetic and sad really.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited November 2011
    I agree, gangbangers are urban terrorists who should be rounded up and immediately imprisoned, or, for more serious offenders, summarily executed. Philadelphia doesn't have much of a gang problem, fortunately. Most of the gangs were pretty much wiped out in the 1970s. We had a strong mayor then by the name of Frank Rizzo who had absolutely no tolerance for that sort of nonsense.

    Gangs and criminals aside, what do we do with all this surplus unskilled and semiskilled labor? Philadelphia was an exponentially better place when there were plenty of manufacturing jobs. Anybody that wanted to work could find work. Those who didn't were simply bums and thugs. There are kids with college degrees without work. What's somebody with a high school diploma, GED or less to do? These kids are competing with experienced older people who've been laid off for the crumbs of the labor market. College costs have become prohibitively expensive and are turning our young people into student loan debt peons.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I come back to the concept of CHANGE, and we are going thru the biggest changes ever and the people need to keep up...

    I heard on the radio in the last couple of days a quote from an elderly lady who was interviewed about her successes in life.... she said something to the effect that you need to learn to embrace change constantly, even when it is uncomfortable. Change is going to happen, you can make it work for you, or complain about it forever.... but it's still going to happen, regardless.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Gangs and criminals aside, what do we do with all this surplus unskilled and semiskilled labor?

    If you take the holistic view, you'll know that there is always a normal distribution of people -- the brightest ones, the hardest workers; the average people; those less motivated or bright than average; and those who are totally lazy, or stupid, or both. Those who are average and above generally do quite well. No amount of government programs or legislation is going to eliminate the fact that statistically, there will be people in the bottom tiers.

    As a city, Philly (and Detroit) might have seen better days.... but there are other places that are much better: NYC, Silicon Valley, Austin, the Carolinas, Georgia... things shift and change. Those who have moved to other locales may be doing fine. Even a lot of people left behind are doing fine, too. Some aren't, and they may lament the change. But change is always going to happen. There are winners and losers. But any individual can slant the odds heavily in their favor by making smarter decisions.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...to buy American goods...PEOPLE ARE GOING HUNGRY!

    Area Food Banks Facing Crisis

    These lines from the article should really be a wake-up call! Think you're immune? Think again!

    The root cause of the food shortfall is the state of the economy, which has left thousands in the area jobless, underemployed, and barely able to pay for housing, utilities, and car payments, Traore said. Many have run out of unemployment benefits.

    These "new poor," Traore said, have very limited food budgets and are showing up at food pantries across the area.

    "We see former middle class working families more than ever coming into pantries, missions, shelters," said Traore. "This is no longer an isolated urban problem."
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "As a city, Philly (and Detroit) might have seen better days.... but there are other places that are much better: NYC, Silicon Valley, Austin, the Carolinas, Georgia... things shift and change. Those who have moved to other locales may be doing fine. Even a lot of people left behind are doing fine, too. Some aren't, and they may lament the change. But change is always going to happen"

    Maybe that sums it up...in the early part of the 20th century, the north was where the manufacturing jobs were, where unskilled and uneducated workers could find a job...the cities and states simply ignored the changes going on around them, burying their heads in the sand hoping that politics would make it better, but the market worked around the politics...wasn't it Pittsburg that saw the handwriting on the wall and changed from steelmaking to either high-tech or plastics???...

    When you have union guys voting in Democrats for decades, the system works...well...until it doesn't...the unions (as one influence) drove the businesses away either down south or overseas, but the people just thought the gravy train would go on forever because they never thought that the changes would affect them...so, Detroit is gone, Flint is gone, and they just sit there and wonder when the $35/hour floorsweeping jobs will come back and the answer is NEVER...they killed that golden goose, and, to this day, they still don't want to give in to "the man"...if that does not confimr my opinion of the idiot/moron IQ level of a UAW worker, I don't know what does...

    Change will happen, we either adapt or die...I would rather adapt...
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "...and, the factor I always mention is that we don't know how much the item would have to cost in order to make it here...thinking of the shirts sold in walmart for $12...if they were made by unionized labor I would think the shirts might sell for 2-3 times as much, meaning that customers simply would not buy as much..."

    Bob, as I've said before, that is patently FALSE!!!!!!

    Walmart price for thermal tees:


    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Dickies-Men-s-Dura-Blend-Bi-Layer-Thermal-Tee/16651605-

    Union Line thermal tees:

    http://allusaclothing.com/a.s._tees_2836_unisex_vintage_thermal_made_in_usa.aspx-

    SAME PRICE!!!!

    Good QUALITY work boots will cost you about $100 and up. Yes, you can get OK ones for $60 or so, and theres always the $20 junk, but here are union made boots:

    http://theunionbootpro.com/products/dsp_productlinks.cfm?advsearch=&saletype=USA- &salename=USAW

    Starting around $140. I personally have a pair of Thorogoods with a Thorogood sole (not a Vibrim). After 2 yrs, no real wear on the heels (I usually wear them to almost a 45deg angle after 4 yrs). And I've had the $225 Red Wing Linemans boot.

    Yes, you can get cheap jeans at WalMart for $10-15. I have 3 pr of Union Line jeans

    http://www.unionlabel.com/jeans-three-pair-10000-get-a-free-white-t.html

    I bought 3 yrs ago. I wear them every day, except in the winter when I pull out the thermal jeans. There are a couple of holes in the back pockets, but no wear in the Thigh or Knee where I usually wear them out.

    Yes, they are $36 each, and yes, that is 3 times the Rustlers, but Lee advertises their Jeans for "under $50" (Mike Rowe must be an expensive spokesman.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It's another one of those misconceptions spread by places like Rupert Murdock's Fox News. Often, little, if any of the lower manufacturing cost is actually passed on to the consumer. Instead, the manufacturers and retailers pad their profit margins. You may get a rake off initially by a new company or for a promotion, but look at Hyundai and notice how that price differential is getting smaller as they gain a foothold in the marketplace despite those very attractive labor cost advantages in their Georgia plant. Ultimately, it's about the stock price, not the consumer price. Then you've got all these new proposed single rate flat taxes. They get hyped and people jump onboard without any thought or research. Unfortunately, once the accountants do the math, lo and behold the rich get a huge reduction in taxes under them, while everyone else gets very little, and sometimes even a tax hike.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I was at an Olympia Sports store looking at sneakers for my son. They had boxes of New Balance sneakers there. Some made in China, some made here. ALL the same model shoe, and ALL THE SAME PRICE!!!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited November 2011
    SAME PRICE!!!!

    Ironically on the product description on the Walmart link, it states the thermal tees country of origin is from USA or imported. So who knows where they're actually made.

    When comparing a US sourced shoe from a 3rd world made one, I'm willing to be the US shoe uses a lot less labor per shoe. Weinbrenner USA which is the manufacturer for www.theunionbootpro.com only has 300 employees.

    The price certainly could be the close. The market determines price more than the cost to produce, if it costs to much to produce vs. the market value, no one will be able to make money making the product. The New Balance shoes made in China may have more profit than the shoes made in the US. Why would the retailer sell one cheaper than the other if they are the same shoe? A Mexican built Suburban costs the customer the same as the US built one. GM needs every extra dollar of profit they can get. I'm sure they pocket the difference from the Mexican sourced Suburban. Seems profit has become an evil word. Without it, none of us would have the standard of living we have.

    Plus prices in a retail store are all over the place. Some items are sold at a loss and others may have 100% mark up.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Ultimately, it's about the stock price, not the consumer price.

    Ultimately it's the stock holders who own the company, not the employees or customers (unless they too are stock holders).

    I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't try to make as much money as they can. Whether it's a wage slave or a business owner. When you get bids for a project around the house or get quotes for say a new car, do you automatically pick the one that charges the most?

    Maybe you do, but I've worked in sales long enough to know most do not unless they feel like they are getting something in return (better quality and service etc). All being equal the lowest bid gets the sale.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Don't dispute what you're saying. But the point I'm making is that someone claimed mfg goes overseas to provide lower prices - Not true: they go overseas to increase their profit margins.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Then help me out on this...why did so many manufacturers assume the expense of building factories 1000s of miles away, incurring additional transportation costs, when they could have made everything right here all the time???

    They had to have a damn good reason to move their plants across the Pacific Ocean to make the same stuff...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Cheap labor, loose laws, fatter profit margins = bigger executive bonuses
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2011
    I'd add strong dollar, weak yen or peso or whatever, cheap shipping.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Yeah, that's true awhile back. But today the dollar is somewhat strong and fuel is driving up shipping costs. So I think you have to target China advantages today. Either way, bottom line is the executive suite and the small group of large shareholders like hedge funds maximizing their income. Problem is, often this is short term and once the bonuses are paid and the hedge funds get their appreciation and bail, the longer term shareholders get shafted.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, that's true awhile back

    And it sounds like more stuff is coming back to the US, based (mostly) on the economics.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Yep, as they say "money talks"!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Mine does.

    It keeps saying "where is everyone, it's so dark and lonely in here in this thin little billfold". ;)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    ...and of course, "thin" is the operative word - right?
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    So, if profits increased, would that not become increased dividends to shareholders or increased capital gains???...hard to believe that ALL those increased profits went into exec bonuses...
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    So, if profits increased, would that not become increased dividends to shareholders or increased capital gains???...hard to believe that ALL those increased profits went into exec bonuses...

    well, if you would have invested your life savings into Apple prior to the Ipod (assembled in China), you would be a very happy camper.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    And it sounds like more stuff is coming back to the US, based (mostly) on the economics.

    I've been reading about many companies pulling their manufacturing out of China for a few years for a variety of reasons.

    Honestly, the US still makes a lot of things. Our local Menard's hardware store runs an add for just "made in the USA" items. The add is over 30 pages of stuff ranching from plastic totes to garage doors.

    I wonder how successful those those ads are for them. Hopefully it helps them sell a lot. They keep doing it so it must help them some against the likes of HD and Lowes.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    There was a good article in yesterday's WSJ.com about Apple's cash horde - $80 billion as of right now.

    They often use that cash to pay suppliers for exclusivity to ensure supply for them and slowing down the competition. They even went as far as to reserve air freight during one Christmas season just in case they needed it. That basically blocked competitors from being able to get product to market.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,389
    She vowed to buy products/services as close to home as possible. We are all connected folks! WAKE UP!

    You never addressed my issue; what if American companies don't build products that suit my needs or wants?
    Example: Motorcycles- Nothing against H-D, but I'm no fan of cruisers/baggers/tourers. Should I buy a motorcycle I don't enjoy riding in order to avoid sending money to England(in my case)?
    Ditto for cars. The ONLY domestic car I'd consider buying(apart from the Wrangler TJ I already own) would be a Mustang GT/Shelby/Boss- and right now I'm not in the market for a big fast coupe.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    They still make motorcycles in the UK? I thought the Japanese wiped them out a long time ago?
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,389
    They still make motorcycles in the UK? I thought the Japanese wiped them out a long time ago?

    A wealthy industrialist named John Bloor bought what was left of Triumph in 1984 and relaunched the brand in 1991. Triumph now makes everything from modern interpretations of the classic Bonneville to top-rung sportbikes to big cruisers- as can be seen here.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    So, if profits increased, would that not become increased dividends to shareholders or increased capital gains

    Sore subject Marsh - companies are hoarding cash rather than increasing dividends. Cap gains are affected by profits, but lots of other stuff too because prices tend to reflect future expectations. Cap gains also depend on when you bought and sold. All I can say is take a look at corporate senior exec compensation, look at its amounts and increases and then look at S&P 500 growth - it generally ain't the shareholders making out!
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Does BSA still make bikes?
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,389
    Does BSA still make bikes?

    No, they were taken by Triumph in the '60s.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    But to move to Asia should mean hundreds of millions of dollars in extra profit if we are talking large companies, yes???...is all of that being held by the company or being channelled into exec compensation???
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think you may be overestimating the profit a tad chancellor, but a lot of the investment dollars in facilities is being spent overseas, not here. There has been very little dividend growth in the S&P 500 over the past few years. If you're interested in executive compensation, read some of the 10-K report filings with the SEC and you might find yourself puking...makes you lawyers hourly rates look paltry! If you're a stock investor you may also be upset at the excess liquidity on some of those balance sheets.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    A lot of the money from overseas subsidiaries is left offshore to avoid US income taxes. That money is used to fund future growth of the subsidiary, marketing overseas, etc. -- or it sits in investments overseas. It's not usually brought to the U.S. or it would incur the higher corporate tax rates of the US vs. other countries.

    And yes, I'm sure GM and Ford are doing this too. Just about any Fortune 500 company that does business outside the U.S. is set up this way.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Our local Menard's hardware store runs an add for just "made in the USA" items.

    That's a neat strategy.

    Honestly, for me the biggest issue is trying to find something (anything really) that isn't made in China.

    I was shoe shopping, came across a Reef sandal, used to be called Reef Brazil, and now they're made in China. ALL of them.

    Having said that, the US should be manufacturing things with a decent profit margin.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited November 2011
    True. If a pair of Nike Air Jordans sells for $150 and you pay a worker $10/hr. to sew a pair of sneakers and she sews several pairs of sneakers an hour, materials for each pair cost $20 or less, you should still have an obscene profit margin.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    You forget shipping costs, legal fees, customs duties, and the Needy American CEO Bonus Fund. :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There wouldn't be any customs duties if the sneakers are sewn here. Shipping costs from a factory in Seattle, where I believe Nike originated, to places in the United States would have to be a lot cheaper than shipping them all the way from China and other places overseas, and legal fees, etc. should be negligable. I'd sooner have folks sewing sneakers in a big factory while making a modest living wage like it was decades ago than having them living on the government dole while slingin' rocks on the corner and shooting each other over drug turf.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Plus, legal fees would drop from all the lawsuits over sweat shop labor. ;)
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