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Comments
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0bc698/20!make=Toyota&model=Camry&ed_mak- eindex=.f0bc698
I think this is a complicated question. As you note, the two forces that the drive system of a car must counteract at cruising speeds are wind resistance and frictions (internal engine/transmission plus tire/road). IF a regular Camry and a Hybrid Camry had identical wind resistance, but the Hybrid had lower friction loses in engine/transmission/tires (hypothetical), then in fact the efficiency penalty would be higher for the Hybrid at faster speeds, where the wind resistance would become a larger factor in the equation. As I say, this may not be the actual case, but I bring it up to illustrate a point. (In general, I think hybrid designers HAVE tended to optimize these frictional loses, by the way. Certainly, the Honda Insight's did.)
Regarding "perpetual motion" when cruising on batteries, obviously that electrical energy will have to be replenished by running the ICE at some point, so that's a white elephant.
You can dial via voice commands by simply hitting the voice button on the steering wheel. You can also program in names that correspond to numbers and "dial by name." Both seem to work good so far.
Of note, it will not let you dial via the touch screen unless the car is stopped (however it does not need to be in park, so dialing at a stop light works pretty good).
XLE 4: $24,425 - 940 = $23,485
TCH: $25,900 - 650 - 450 = $24,800
So the "hybrid premium" is only $1,315.
And all of this economics ignores the $2,600 fed and (in Oregon) $1,500 state tax credits. With this $4,100 in tax credits, the hybrid premium is NEGATIVE. You get paid $2,785 to buy the TCH instead of the XLE 4. And you save on gas money. And help the environment.
Sweet deal!
1. Upright on their sides, long axis parallel to the car's long axis.
2. Stacked two high on with their biggest surface down, long axis parallel to the car's long axis. In this configuration, I could fit one more similar sized bag next to these four in the upright on its side position.
There is still some more room for smaller things aroung these bags as well.
I'm talking about the roll-aboard bags: about 24" by 10" by 14".
- For some buyers that power is of no value and it's the 4c XLE vs the 4c TCH.
- For others the V6 power is mandatory so the 4c XLE is excluded on the spot. There are many of these buyers.
- For others, those used to the 4c CamCordAlt's, the V6 has some value just for the fun aspect - without sacrificing FE.
It's a complicated and fun equation.
http://www.cars.com/go/video/motorweek/videoPopup.jsp?makeid=47&year=2007&modeli- d=424&location=MW_L_2007_Toyota_Camry_Hybrid.flv
enjoy.
Your analysis completely ignores the fact that you can buy the XLE at $300 over invoice and you will be lucky to get the TCH at $500 under MSRP.
There also are 10 other standard features (besides the moonroof and the trunk size) on the XLE that are not on the TCH.
To compare apples to apples, equip the models as close as they can be equipped, ie. you won't find many stripped XLE's or TCH's.
But as other posters have noted the TCH also qualifies for various tax benefits which total almost $6000 in some states. It's $2600 Min through Sept 30th atleast.
Regarding trims on the TCH, from various data it seems that initially about half will be the base package at just under $27000. Now if the market demands the top package then in the next months many ( most ) may come in in the $30K range rather than the $27K range. Again the market will speak.
Gampa.
Good luck.. Let us know if you pick one up and how you like it!.
Bill
Initially it seems that the interest from inquirers is mainly in the trim with the nicer features.
For the first two years the Prius was out, ~75% of all the deliveries were in the fully loaded version. I think the TCH will fall more into a 50/50 dispersion.
This is the one thing that worries me too. My last 3 cars have been a Jeep Grand Cherokee, a Jeep Liberty and now a Honda Element. It will be a big adjustment going back to a sedan. I also noticed (as others have noted) that the head room seems to be a little too close for comfort and I am not tall (5' 9"). In any case, I'm sure I'll adjust.
Laurel Carmax in Laurel, MD I believe is No 2 in the US in volume. Certainly in the top 5. There are a couple more all in the suburbs of DC.
Someone posted here or on another site that Longo ( 10 times bigger than any average store ) expects about 25 units a month while having 100+ deposits in hand.
Another dealership got Package A in White - so they asked me to test it.
And still another dealership will be having an invitation only Hybrid Camry Workshop, which I plan on attending.
The top 10 states for hybrid vehicle registrations in 2005 and each state's share of the total U.S. hybrid volume.
State
2005
Percent of total volume
1. California 52,619 26.4 percent
2. Florida 10,470 5.3 percent
3. Texas 9,632 4.8 percent
4. New York 9,372 4.7 percent
5. Virginia 8,650 4.3 percent
6. Illinois 7,286 3.7 percent
7. Washington 6,970 3.5 percent
8. Pennsylvania 6,948 3.5 percent
9. Massachusetts 6,060 3.0 percent
10. Maryland 5,673 2.8 percent
Combined Top Ten 123,680 62.1 percent
- R.L. POLK & CO.
By the way, as previously reported and recommended on this forum, a drive in excess of 5 miles results in far better fuel economy than very short trips. During city driving of a duration in excess of 5 miles I estimate that I am averaging just shy of 35 mpg. I also tend to have a bit of a lead foot, so that number is impressing me so far.
The aditional weight would come from 2 axle shafts and a rear diffential and nothing else. These hardware are lighter than normal since it only carry part of the total torque of the HSD.
No added weight from propeller shaft as seen in nonhybrid version. I predict maybe 75 pounds.
What do you think?
Completely unknown for resale values. If hybrid sales take off, their prices will go down, reducing resale. Also, there is still that long term maintenance issue at 150K, which conventional cars do not have...
At the moment hybrid resale is good, but at the moment they are also limited in numbers.
Also, if new cars have a tax credit, this reduces the value of the used car.
What ever the tax credit, it will be a direct reduction off of MSRP as you drive off the lot. When the credits go away if not renewed, that will have less impact on resale. If you are eligible for a tax credit you would be crazy to pay the price of a year old hybrid unless it was several thousand less than new price.
Six years I purchased a gasser VW over a diesel and I thought with gas at 99 cents per gallon it would take over 7 years to make up the difference. The difference at that time was about $1300 difference.
Today the same vehicle commands a resale of $2100 over the gas model...(check with Edmunds if you question my figures)
Also now over the last six years the diesel made up the $1300 difference... so the $2100 would be profit.
VW stills sells diesels and last I looked... diesels command MSRP where I live.
At that time I thought like you but the figures are in favor of the hybrid/ diesels.
True there are a lot of other factors involved but with Toyota reliability... I would say the Hybrid, with it's Federal credit and maybe State credit, it'a good bet!
"Also, if new cars have a tax credit, this reduces the value of the used car." ... do you think the person seven years down the road is going to remember the tax credit they offered in 2006.
How can you say my statements are " completely unknown" and say that tax credit will reduce the value of the used car.
Do rebates reduce the value also?
Do you work for Edmunds?
Gampa
How can you say my statements are " completely unknown" and say that tax credit will reduce the value of the used car.
steve is partially correct ..if you were to trade immediately within 2-4 mo's. Example: $27600 MSRP less $2600 rebate will bring the transaction price to $25,000
If you wanted to sell it to someone as a used vehicle they would have the option to buy a new one also for $25,000 or buy yours. Likely that buyer would opt for a new one or ask you for a 10-15% discount to induce him to buy yours, say $21-22,000.
However as you correctly point out down the road in 4-8 years who knows/cares who got the rebate or not. The value of the vehicle will be determined by supply and demand in the resale market not an incentive in the original year of purchase.
Complete information about the Federal Income Tax Credit for Hybrids Placed in Service in or after 2006 can be found here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_hybrid.shtml
I love my 95 Camry LE Coupe V6, its been a workhorse but our "Sunday go to meeting car" is a 2001 LS430 and I love the luxury. I want to marry them both (still don't want to unload the Lexus although I might have to).
Want to visit the dealers today and see both of them on the ground (at least the new 2007 Camry, doubt they have the hybrid available to look at).
Another thing that is nagging at me is that the list for TCH is only 8 long at my dealer; why??
I still have not tested the TCH, but will update if I get around to it.
The vehicle is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, and not for resale.
Yay! That's good to hear.
I was speaking of any credits in effect at the time of resale. The same is true of rebates - they reduce resale value.
The difference between your VW diesel purchase and a hybrid is about 80 years of engine experience. The hybrids are still new, and their long term resale is uncertain. Also, those same diesel engines may make a US comeback when low sulfur diesel comes in 2007. However, there is a whole different forum for "Diesel vs. Hybrid"...
But if diesels do take off, it will probably also impact hybrid resale.
I believe time will show that the TCH will always have a premium ofer the rest of the equivalent priced Camry's. The tax credit is only for the TCH and the used market will not take into consideration that tax credit two years down the road when the hybrid makes up such a small portion of the total mix of Camrys. Typically the cars like the XLE depreciate more because OPTIONS do not add long term value to the used prce. However engines like the 6cy, diesels or hybrid will keep the premium. Then again Time will tell.
I'm not sure what the point is anyway. I'm getting $2600 from the feds, approx $3000 from the state and saving $130/mo on gas over my trade's consumption. I would not have bought a camry anyway had it not been for the hybrid and would have instead went for the ES350.
Being that the rebate only applies to the first 60,000 cars (correct?), does the dealership give you some sort of certificate that says your car is in the first 60,000?
If not, how do I prove this for tax purposes?