GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

rockylee

Your old analogy might of been true 10+ years ago, but I've watched the systems grow into a delightful technology and in the case of Acura's SH-AWD actually enhances handling performance. Look at the RL, RDX, as examples. They both have class leading handling. Why ? I point the finger at SH-AWD, and yes I should give credit to the engineers of the suspension.

Rocky

P.S. the mpg trade-off is worth it to me. It's not significant enough to give up the safety of all weather SH-AWD which does more than just power 4-wheels pal.

lilengineerboy

Are navigation systems available in all new small SUV's from Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc.? If not, can you have your own installed?

There are plenty of aftermarket systems that cost a fraction of what factory installed ones cost. Plus they have the added bonus of switching it to another car. Say you go to Hawaii for a vacation, take the nave system with you.

Portable aftermarket systems (TomTom, Garmin,etc) lack the "dead reckoning" that is part of the built in systems (when it cant find a satellite, like anytime you are around tall buildings, it goes off the car's last known position and figures out where you are), as well as the display size and continuity of features (program the Garmin and then program the factory honda one with voice prompts). Some of the smaller aftermarket ones let you program your destinations from a computer and transfer that info to the car system to save you from programming all that info with no real buttons.

snakeweasel

Portable aftermarket systems (TomTom, Garmin,etc) lack the "dead reckoning" that is part of the built in systems (when it cant find a satellite, like anytime you are around tall buildings, it goes off the car's last known position and figures out where you are),

Ah thats why it was telling me I was in Lake Michigan.

explorerx4

aren't the offset tests against a solid barrier?
weight with speed does have it's advantages if the other object isn't fixed.

lilengineerboy

Portable aftermarket systems (TomTom, Garmin,etc) lack the "dead reckoning" that is part of the built in systems (when it cant find a satellite, like anytime you are around tall buildings, it goes off the car's last known position and figures out where you are),

Ah thats why it was telling me I was in Lake Michigan.

You didn't notice your feet getting wet?

snakeweasel

You didn't notice your feet getting wet?

LOL

A few weeks ago we were going through the Loop (Downtown Chicago) from the Eisenhower Expressway to Lake Shore Drive north. Well to get from one to the other you have to go through the streets of the loop. However there is Lower Wacker drive (Wacker Drive is a bi level street, the Blues Brothers raced down it in the "Blues Brothers") which is for all intents and purposes a tunnel going under the city. Well of course we lost the satilites and when we came out the Nav system was showing us one block south and one block east. Well since Lower Wacker Drive emerges about a block west of the lake our nav system showed us in the lake for about 15-20 seconds.

iluvmysephia1

did you guys venture out to the Navy Pier while you were in Chicago? I remember a few years back while visiting family there in Chicago we walked out on the navy Pier. On the walk back to land we stopped by this all-white contraption with a salesman pitching "half-price for only $5.00!"

My son and bro-in-law wanted to go in this spaceship thing and check it out and I wasn't in the mood. I was talked in to paying the $5.00 and going on this ride.

What it was was one of those simulator rides. You just sat down and IIRC correctly you had to strap yourself in. This one's theme was "Space Truckin'" and man, did we ever truck. That spaceship rocked you up and down and back and forth while you watched graphics on a screen up in front. I couldn't believe how life-like it was. I was all set for Deep Purple's 'Space Truckin' song to ignite but it never did. We were on a lightning-quick roller coaster that shook you around physically to make you think you were really in one. Fascinating technology and a very fun ride for $5.00!

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

snakeweasel

Navy Pier is one of those places I tend to stay away from. Its nice if you never been there, but its one of those "been there, done that" kind of things. As a native of the area I tend to stay away from the tourist spots. We were actually heading to the beach.

harrychezt

http://www.greenmachinestour.org/actdaimlerchrysleri4.shtml

Hyundai/Chrysler/Mitsubishi.
The Caliber has a GEMA 4 cylinder in it(a Hyundai block, tweaked by each maker for their own vehicles, at GEMA plant).
So, basically, a slightly tweaked Hyundai block(?) , built at GEMA, with UAW workers, are now in the Chrysler Calibers(and soon other) products. If anyone is considering the Sebring , or the Caliber, but dislikes say Hyundai, or Mistubishi....
will it be enough to make you go to somewehre else(other than Chrysler) for crossover, or car. Same can go any way, if you're a Mitsu fan(Lancer will have this engine soon)
or Hyundai, but dislike either one, or both, of the other companies, will it affect your purchasing decisions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Engine_Manufacturing_Alliance

Hyundai based engine, tweaked some by Chrysler, it sounds like.
Will also appear in the Compass.
The Compass/Lancer/Caliber are all supposed to be a Mitsu platform, and heard Hyundai/Kia may use a version of this too. Seems a lot of sharing going on here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Outlander

I'm just hoping when Chrysler does the rework(supposedly brand new? New platform>) for the 08(or 09) PT Cruiser, hope they add the good (cloth) seats to it(for base, limited models) like they have in the Caliber base model.
That, and add the 150HP GEMA engine ot it, like Caliber has, for 30 MPG(or more, by then, if they tweak the engines more?).
The current one is a great little vehicle, except for those seats , and mpg.
VW Rabbit has worst seats...very firm seats!
Chryslers were PT seats were firm(ish) and alittle narrow(the leather ones are better, but you pay more, too, a lot more).
Anyhow...

Take Care /Not offense.

nippononly

The '06 RAV4 and the '07 use the same 4-cyl powertrain. The old RAV4 ('05 model) used the same engine as the Camry, but used a 4-speed auto IIRC. The Camry had the 5-speed now in use in both models (4-cylinder versions) for a couple of years already.

jh27

The foreigners are crossing our borders from every direction.. cars from Japan.. our worst enemy 50 years ago. probably still our worst enemy economically speaking...cars from Korea.. they're building a bomb for us.. terrorists sneaking in the USA from every direction.. and you morons .. not strong enough a description of you, keep buying foreign cars and bashing USA made cars.. dont give me that crap about tyota being built in the USA.. they are assembled here but thats just about all.. same with nissen, and all the rest.. from what ive read tyota brings in their own people and set up their own mfg facilities to make parts for tyota for the most part.. oh they might buy a knob here and there from some USA mfg.. to my way of thinking USA is getting just what they deserve.. dumb people buying [non-permissible content removed] products. bashing USA products.. hey remember that old saying .. what goes around comes around? keep buying foreign things and soon you wont be able to buy anything.. your job will be outsourced to China or India..

jh27

Not long ago i was in a hardware store looking for a small pipe wrench.. $9.95 for a 10 inch pipe wrench .. made in CHINA.. a good copy of the 10 inch RIDGID hanging on the peg board beside it for $19.95 .. I bought the RIDGID .. Has nothing to do with cars but thats how i buy things.. MADE IN THE USA

anythngbutgm

And while your agenda comes through with much flair and utter ignorance ("And you morons", "dumb people buying [non-permissible content removed] products"), you're thinking is about 50 years outdated. It's a free country bud.

Welcome to America, enjoy your stay.

snakeweasel

cars from Japan.. our worst enemy 50 years ago.

Gee and all this time I thought our worst enemy in 1956 was the Soviet Union.

lemko

Good for you! I believe in buying good quality tools and will pay a premium for them. That Chinese pipe wrench probably was a sloppily cast mess using inferior metallurgy. I wouldn't see buying the cheap wrench as saving $10 but wasting $9.95 + tax.

lemko

Those three things would certainly do wonders for American middle-class workers and could go a long way to stopping terrorism by strengthening our economy and its citizens financially stronger. Poorly-paid workers slaving away at McJobs pay little if any taxes. Diminished tax revenue means diminished government services and diminished national defense.

anythngbutgm

Maybe we should also stop buying all that foriegn oil that fuels our 4 ton "Umericun SUV's" while we're at it?

fintail

People will stop buying Japanese cars when/if the domestics can finally get their crap together enough to offer an attractive alternative. I think there's less brand loyalty out there than many believe.

But about the Chinese crap...indeed.

lemko

Heck, I really wish we could and would stop buying all that foreign oil. I most certainly would love to see us become energy-independent and tell all our so-called Middle Eastern "friends" that can just keep their sloppy black goo and go back to killing each other arguing which is the correct form of Islam.

By the way, I don't drive, need, nor want any SUV whether it's foreign or domestic.

snakeweasel

I think there is a bigger brand loyalty than you suspect, especially with the Japanese makes.

anythngbutgm

While we are at it, should we eliminate all foriegn travel for both business and pleasure? Since we are looking at closing our country off to any foriegn involvment, we might as well just tell the visitors to stay the hell out of our country... We don't want em here.

lemko

No, not all visitors - just those who seek to do us harm and those who came illegally and refuse to leave or go through the proper channels to become citizens.

dino001

I lived in a country that did just that: no Japanese cars, no Chinese goods, and certainly no immigrants. Believe me - did not do magic. Quite to contrary.

Isolationist and protectionist policies always sound great and bring nothing but poverty and overpriced POS goods on the market, as when competition and possibility of failure are removed, there is not much incentive left to improve. It is certainly your choice to buy whatever good at whatever price you want, you are also free to express your opinion why you do it. BUT You have to right to TELL ME what I am supposed to buy. I make my own choices thank you very much and if I like inferior product (in your opinion of course) for lower price, that is my choice. Otherwise you are no better than Chrushtchev or Brezniev.

anythngbutgm

Seriously dude, if you wanna live in a bubble, you might as well lock yourself in a bomb shelter so none of those evil foriegners disrupt what you believe will be a perfect country...

imidazol97

>should we eliminate all foriegn travel for both business and pleasure?

Not all. It would be nice to follow the laws that are on the books and have been for decades... like people overstaying visas, e.g. People slipping across the border and staying for the welfare and benefits. Like people having their children here and the whole family becoming citizens. Like

anythngbutgm

Ya, good luck with that one. Those poeple you speak of are already living among us. Look at the Oklahoma city bombing. Dude was an American just like us. Probably drove a Chevy truck to work everyday.

lemko

Well, then it only goes to show we have enough domestic terrorists. We don't need to import foreign ones. I didn't mean wee should eliminate foreign trade altogether, but to address conditions that give our foreign competition an unfair advantage and to enforce those laws to protect our industries and workers against unfair trade practices. Japan does it, why don't we?

anythngbutgm

You are generalizing WAY too much here. I have multiple friends who are living here in the states from Jordan, Brazil, and other foriegn lands. They work damn hard to be part of this country, they are legit taxpayers just like us. They aren't terrorists to my knowledge... And even if they were gosh, how would you be able to deceifer who is and who isn't?

On a side note, are you saying that Toyota is a Terrorist organization?

louiswei

Those three things would certainly do wonders for American middle-class workers

How in the *beep* is that suppose to help the American middle-class if all of the sudden they have less buying power than they have before. It is really naive to think that bring more blue collar jobs into the country is going to help the economy overall. Sooner or later many blue collar jobs are going to be replaced by machine, then what?

louiswei

The problem is not Japan's policy, it's that the Japanese don't want crappy, boatish, overly-huge American cars. They have many first-class car manufactures over there why do they want some second-rated, inferior goods from US. Same could apply for electronics as well. However, why didn't you mention that Japan imported meat from US and based on your logic, why don't we import some Japanese beef?

On the other hand, I believe right now GM is the number 1 import car manufacture in China (or number 1 luxury brand) and Toyota, Honda and Nissan are not doing so well over there. It's all about supply and demand, if you make a desirable product, people will buy it, simple as that. After all, free trade and capitalism is what US is all about isn't it?

lemko

Buying power?

Most Japanese cars tend to be more expensive than American ones. If Toyota and Japan, Inc. succeed in killing domestic manufacturers, they can charge as much as they darn well please. You either buy it from them for whatever they want or you don't get a car. I guess you won't mind paying $35K for a Corolla.

The ability to buy more shoddy Chinese-made goods and empowering tyrannical low-wage employers like Wal-Mart? I'd rather buy one good pipe wrench that lasts me a lifetime than three that break due to inferior metallurgy. I'd rather see the factories in my city humming with activity rather than the streets filled with desperate unemployed men engaging in drug dealing and other crimes. I guess if you own a gun shop or sell home security systems, this increases your buying power.

Allowing more immigrants in the country when we can't even take care of the native people increases buying power? Maybe this is good for people too lazy to mow their own lawns or to corrupt contractors and developers who want to increase their already scandalous profit margins building stapled-together cardboard McMansions with plumbing systems that would be embarrassing in a portable toilet.

Per blue collar work being replaced by machines - who do you want building and maintaining those machines. The U.S. was once the leading exporter of machine tools. This too is being lost to China and other developing countries. At this rate, the only thing Americans will be making is hamburgers.

louiswei

At this rate, the only thing Americans will be making is hamburgers.

LOL, how naive...

Sooner or later US is going to lose majority of the blue collar jobs to foreign countries and there's nothing you and I can do about it. After China there is India and after India there is Africa. They all have cheaper labors than we do and companies will always go for the lowest cost. America has to change, losing blue collar jobs is not the end of the world. There are many develope, research and design positions out there which are desperately need someone to fill in. We need to let the younger generations know that getting higher education is important because that's the only way to be competative and make America competative. 50 years ago one can graduate from high school, work for GM, join UAW then he is set for life. That's not the case anymore. The world is changing and if we don't change with it, we will just be eliminated. Nature is cruel just as the world.

dino001

Most Japanese cars tend to be more expensive than American ones.

Close the borders and watch Malibu price going to $35K, Impala moving to $50K, etc. Don't believe me? Go to Europe and ask home much Volvo S40/V50 comparable to one priced here in low $30s cost there. Anybody wants to guess? It's north of $50K.

louiswei

Same goes for the daily goods when everything in Walmart has "Made in USA" on it.

Higher labor = Higher cost = Higher price

Simple as that.

By that time there won't be any middle-class American. Only the riches and poors.

fintail

We're heading for rich and poor with little inbetween right now. The middle class is dying, and the burgeoning corporate theocracy is rejoicing. Each crooked trade policy and submission to China gets us another step closer while we fund their weapons and oil buying capacity. There won't be enough development and design positions to go round once the pendulum swings..but lots of no-rights crappy retail jobs for lots of people, as poor people buying Chinese junk will need assistance with their purchases.

fintail

Taxes or MSRP?

anythngbutgm

Not to mention it is the competition from the Imports that are keeping the domestics on their toes. Had Toyota (And other brands) not been eating the domestics lunch for the past 20 years, you would not be witnessing the battle for survival that GM and Ford and and to a lesser extent Chrysler are fighting at the moment.

Had the competition not arrived, we'd still be driving Chevy Celebrities, Citations and Vegas and as dino mentioned, paying top dollar for the privelage.

lemko

Sounds nice in theory, but now college tuitions are increasing faster than inflation and are becoming out of reach of many young people without the peril of going into massive debt for the chance to get a research or design job that may or may not be there. It's kind of like buying stock on margin only to find you've bought a bunch of worthless shares. "Oh, you want that entry-level IT job? Sorry, we outsourced all our entry-level IT jobs to India while you were putzing around getting your Computer Science degree! Go work at Wal-Mart!"

Another thing - not everybody capable is of becoming a researcher, designer, etc. What do we do with the majority of people who can't attain such academic achievement? Do they go permanently on the dole or are condemned to a lifetime of drudgery at some McJob?

louiswei

First of all, IT is not the only field that requires research and development. Second, there are still a lot of jobs out there without the requirement of college degree. The problem is many of them are being occupied by illegal immigrants. I agreed that this illegal immigrant issue has to be solved sooner or later. We can't let those people come to the country, not paying tax and enjoy all the benefits such as free education. That is just not right.

However, not everyone graduated from college has to become a designer or researcher. There are many other opportunities out there which are simple tasks but has the requirement of a college degree. I don't believe in some people are incapable of going to college (including junior college). Unless one is officially a retard I think everyone has the ability. The problem is that our 12K education failed them at the very early stage which makes it unrecoverable later on.

iluvmysephia1

in America. Unfortunately there are always so many 'Animal House' and 'National Lampoon' types in the U.S.A. who like to bother and distract the teachers. They think they're so "cute" but they're really morons that aren't doing anybody any good at all.

But, make no mistake about it. American companies will give you the shaft just as quickly as Gary Payton will strip Michael Jordan of the ball as he tries driving to the hoop. A good example is The Boeing Company. They go through these cyclical "ups and downs" and lay people off without even blinking a tinch. If Boeing would just invest in their biggest resource (people) they might just do better on the open market. It's true that Boeing is booming right now. But what about the next downturn in the industry? Another tragedy like the nasty one 5 years ago, continuously rising jet fuel prices, etc., and Boeing will be laying off once again.

Recently Bill Ford stepped down as Ford CEO and gave the job to Boeing's Alan Mulally. Come on, Alan, do your best. Your labors will not come to fruition because, frankly, you're not a car man. Ford cars are overpriced.

Ford is another company who has overlooked the most important car of the 2000's, the subcompact. Focus? Get real. I worked very hard for Boeing for 19 years and 9 months. I was laid off for the second time in May of 2003. I chose the Allied Health field to retrain in. It's true-not everyone can do an Allied Health job. It's messy. It's technical. It's intense. It's dangerous. But it helps people.

I honestly could care less if Boeing fell into the Puget Sound and rolled and tumbled and fought with the octopii down there. Some idiot in a business suit with a Krispy Kreme in their hand decided that 19 of the 21 people in my group of workmates were toast. Our jobs were off-loaded to a group of Engineering workers who were to receive half the pay we got. They can have Boeing's work.

Alan Mulally at Ford? Ya gotta be gasping for clean air. Have at it Alan. American cars are sick jokes. I'll go with Kia and Scion and Suzuki and the like. They are producing strong and solid cars with great Warranties (Kia and Hyundai) for less.

American car companies are doomed. Once strong and solid they have become lurking places for...Alan Mullally's... and those like him. Know-it-all's in expensive suits who grasp for answers. They will find none. I shed not even a tiny tear.

lilengineerboy

I don't think its 100% the school's fault. If people want their McMansion and two expensive cars, thats fine but then don't have kids if you are both going to be working full time and then complaining because the schools aren't raising the kids for you. It's not the school's responsibility to be a parent. Making education important isn't their job. They aren't glorified baby-sitters.
Want to stop the decay? Raise your kids.
Oh, another concept, meet your neighbors. Know who they are and what they do. Know their families, invite them over. Everyone is so paranoid because these other people look or act different. People are people. They love their kids, they want to succeed, they take pride in things important to them. The level of racism and paranoia is frightening, its like no other time I have lived through yet.
Closing boarders didn't work for WWI, WWII, and it won't work now. Welcome to a global economy. Make competitive products. This country is all immigrants, and the most indigenous people here got screwed over by the ones that did come.

snakeweasel

Me and the boss (oops sorry my wife) had a chance to test drive the Lincoln MKX this weekend. It was a bad choice as now the wife wants one. Anyway, we were really impressed with the car (SUV?), it had a lot to it, rode nice and pretty much wowed us. It just might be the wifes next car.

nippononly

32 new posts and the ONLY ONE on topic is snake's. Tut tut, boys and girls! :-P

I am seeing several of the new Grand Vitara on the streets around here, which is very unusual - Suzuki has no dealer in county (nearest is next county over - 20 miles away). I have to say I like the revised looks of the new model, and the price is decent, even if the power is a little low (without the increased fuel economy you might think such a trade-off would provide). If I were thinking of looking at something like a RAV4, I would give that a look too. Geez, do I ever wish Suzuki would enlarge its dealer body.

anythngbutgm

Really... the MKX is on the dealers lots already? Cool. How was the pricing and options structure? How did it look in the flesh?

dino001

Total, which includes VAT usuall about 15-25%, depending on the country. This makes MSRP over $40K. European laws usually require inclusion of VAT in the price, of course in attempt to hide the taxation level from consumer.

snakeweasel

Really... the MKX is on the dealers lots already?

Nope not until November from what I was told. This was at a Lincoln sponsored event where they were giving test drives on their 2007 models and getting input.

The were not set on price, but it sounds like mid 30's.

The options this one had was leather seating, 6 cd in dash, powered seats, back seats reclining, heated and cooled seats, steering wheel mounted controls for the radio and fan/temp., power folding back seats, two sun roofs (back one didn't open). It was pretty decked out.

Looked real nice in the flesh.

Kirstie_H

32 new posts and the ONLY ONE on topic is snake's. Tut tut, boys and girls!

Yeah, and seriously, how bad is it when we have to look to snakeweasel to get us back on-topic?
just kidding mr. weasel. We like your work

Let's try to stay focused here, folks. If you need assistance, i can certainly point you to some other, more politically-centered, discussions. However, none of them happen to be hosted by an Edmunds.com property.

snakeweasel

Yeah, and seriously, how bad is it when we have to look to snakeweasel to get us back on-topic?

If you read the book of revelations you will find that it is a sign of the end of times.

explorerx4

all the tragedies being posted here, i'll probably buy another ford. over the years, i've been treated pretty well by them and my dealer.
one thing that does bug me about them is the oem tires. they ride rough and are noisy. this is a separate issue from handling. i replaced the goodyears on my explorer with some michelins. after 15k they still don't make a peep.
i do have to credit the goodyears for being great in rain and snow.
the continentals on my wife's escape are noisy and rough, too. i'm looking into replacing them, although with 30k on them, they look like they will go another 30k.

nippononly

speaking of Ford and tires, I was over looking at the Focus again tonight. Just window shopping, but I like the ZX5 with the SES package and just about everything loaded in, which is still under $20K. Thing is, OEM tires are all over the place. Some cars had Hankooks (ick!), some had Pirellis (OK), some had Firestones (uhhhh, ick). What's up with that? I just assumed they would at least stick to one brand, and would NEVER sell new Fords with Korean tires.