Isell...I've stayed at that particular Holiday Inn Express (as well as a couple of others in different cities). The one in Chicago has been redone. It's actually pretty nice, not huge rooms, but nice nevertheless. Quite a bit better than Motel 6 in reality.
Downtown Chicago is not cheap....very similar to staying in a nice part of NYC, LA or San Francisco.
the crazy thing, from my point of view, is that she had to ask someone to go to the prom. being respectful, if you saw any pictures of the 'girls only' group, it would make you say 'something really wrong' that they didn't have dates.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Kids don't seem to date very much any more. They all hang out in groups, and maybe pair off, but they don't "date" as such, the way we did at the same age.
It's the medical convention that week. They are all taking advantage of the situation. I would have kept the reservations at Hyatt Regency, but they didn't have a room for Saturday night of any kind. At least we'll only be there to shower and sleep. The manager said that it had been redone recently. Since GG has stayed there, I'm sure that it will be fine.
Snake, I know what you mean. For $500, I could have had a nice ocean front room at the beach for a three night weekend. Still, this is a special event for my sister and brother-in-law. We'll enjoy the trip. After all, how often do we get to Chicago?
Wine, women, and song---I thought that I covered it pretty well. I may have missed out on how to field strip a cigarette, but I did strip a few other things. :P
Well, it ain't much but it is a real car sales story. From the National Post - it's a bit long but somewhat amusing.
Tyler Anderson/ National Post In a ruling making the rounds of legal circles, Justice Joseph W. Quinn of St. Catharines eviscerates a used car dealer, saying his explanations were "incoherent twaddle" and "fell somewhere between a yarn and a fairy tale"
CommentsTwitterFacebookLinked InDiggRedditBuzzEmailAdrian Humphreys, National Post · Sunday, Jun. 6, 2010
In what appears to be an annual start-of-summer ritual, an Ontario judge has issued a decision annotated with amusing and scathing footnotes that, one suspects, reflect the dark, witty thoughts and secret exasperation judges sequester during court.
In a 27-page written ruling released last month, Justice Joseph W. Quinn of St. Catharines, eviscerates a used car dealer, calling the defendant "unblinkingly dishonest," adding: "I feel somewhat responsible for this as I must have done or said something during the trial that caused [him] to believe that I was dim-witted."
After listening to the car dealer, he concludes the court was "up to its sash in falsehoods."
"By the end of the trial, if [he] were to have testified that the world was round, I would immediately have sought membership in the Flat Earth Society."
But really, that was just the beginning.
"It definitely took me by surprise," said Norman Epstein, a Toronto lawyer who represented Gurnek Singh, the Brampton, car dealer who was the defendant in the case.
Local lawyers, however, are not so surprised -- although quite tickled--at the oft-times acerbic, sarcastic and hilarious passages of the ruling. Several times before, often around this time of year, Judge Quinn has issued similarly styled rulings that dispel wit as well as wisdom.
"I'm not surprised by it," said a local lawyer who did not wish to be named. "He is very bright and has a good wit about him. He's a good writer," the lawyer said.
Copies of the ruling, Pirbhai v. Singh et al, 2010 ONSC 2446, have started to make their way around legal circles by email.
"I look forward to them," said another lawyer. "He can certainly write an entertaining judgment," offered a third.
The problem under litigation in this case started much as Judge Quinn's ruling does: "A friend of a friend is not necessarily your friend."
Back in 1999, Kalimuddin Pirbhai, a St. Catharines doctor, wanted to buy a used luxury car and a friend said he had a friend who could get him a deal. Dr. Pirbhai contacted Mr. Singh, who owns both Sarwan Auto Sales and Brampton Auto Collision. Both of those companies, Judge Quinn writes, "loosely, very loosely, carries on the business that its name implies."
Dr. Pirbhai's relationship with Mr. Singh quickly declined after a string of broken promises, large financial demands and shoddy and unsafe repairs on a Lexus sedan.
"Ten years, and 31 days of trial, later, that transaction is finally completed. The plaintiff ended up with an expensive bargain," Judge Quinn writes.
The car delivered -- vastly over budget--was "something of an automotive Frankenstein," writes Judge Quinn. It "swayed, swerved, wobbled and emitted unusual noises."
The judge was singularly unimpressed by Mr. Singh. "He shows no aptitude for the truth; he is without a conscience; he is incorrigible," he writes in the introduction to his ruling, then annotating that passage with the first of 17 footnotes: "Singh should not be permitted to conduct any commercial business in the Province of Ontario that brings him into contact with members of the public."
Judge Quinn writes that one explanation by Mr. Singh was "incoherent twaddle," another "fell somewhere between a yarn and a fairy tale." Mr. Singh displayed an "unlimited capacity for fraud and deception" and practised "splendid skullduggery."
Judge Quinn calls him: "a devious man and an unbelievable witness who will do or say anything to advance his position. He was maddeningly unwilling to respond to the simplest of questions and often had to be asked the same question over and over (no doubt using the time gained to visit his pantry of untruthful answers.)"
After buying a badly damaged Lexus at an automobile auction for Dr. Pirbhai in 1999, Mr. Singh promised to fix it to "showroom condition" for another $5,000, court heard.
Mr. Singh overcharged for the original auction price by close to $6,000, overcharged on quoted repairs by more than $11,235, then released a car that needed another $15,565 to have someone else fix the "repairs" to make the car safe, court heard.
"It is not enough to describe his conduct in this regard as being negligent: it was fraudulent, and, grossly so," writes Judge Quinn.
He added that Mr. Singh's sloppy conduct meant the dealer could not shift personal liability onto his corporate entities, with the judge writing: "The corporate veil here was more of a bandit's mask."
Judge Quinn ordered Mr. Singh to pay $33,465.77 in addition to $50,000 in punitive damages.
The lawyers for Mr. Singh and Dr. Pirbhai declined to comment.
driver....interesting story. Don't know if the journalist who wrote it was looking to fill newspaper space, but I think it warranted maybe 2-3 paragraphs, at most.
I'm not immune to writing tomes when I relay my car buying experiences here. But, this story really exceeded even what I could write.
To sum up, an unscrupulous car dealer ran into a guy who was as cheap as cheap could get (buying a wrecked car to fix up and perhaps save a nickel in the process). They agreed to do a deal. It cost more than the buyer anticipated. And, the dealer charged more than he probably should have.
Don't know if the journalist who wrote it was looking to fill newspaper space, but I think it warranted maybe 2-3 paragraphs,
Good comments GG. *It was in Monday's paper and they do need to fill out a Monday newspaper. *I could have condensed the story, but I was too lazy to do that today. *The story wasn't the best, but at least it I thought it might be good to bring things around to the topic once in awhile. *Don't get me wrong, I read all the emails and enjoy them. I am learning alot about Chicago and how to quit smoking etc. No problem, I just thought it was time to insert a sales story, even if a bit weak.
Someone might check out this sight and wonder what is going on!
Yeah....I guess hotel rates aren't very compelling reading either.
Funny, in my humble neighborhood, you can always tell when someone has come into some money. Case in point, the family that lives directly across from me has about 1.5 acres of land behind their house. I always mentioned that they could put in a pool and a tennis court in that space, and still have land left over.
Well....while I didn't know the wife's parents, I did know she was an only child and that both parents had recently passed (Father in January, Mother in March). It's tragic that the wife lost her parents so close to one another. I guess the will was dispersed (the Father had been a retired president of a large local machine tool company). But, last week, here comes the excavators and the pool installation company.
Yesterday, the husband came over to show me his NEW Mercedes E 550 (REALLY nice car).
the husband came over to show me his NEW Mercedes E 550 (REALLY nice car).
Well, it is a sales story! What a way to get an E 550! I am not sure what a respectable amount of time would be before rushing off to buy the E, but the Mother died in March, takes awhile to sort out the will, a bit of time to order the car.
Goodness gracious! Your neighbors worked fast. It took us three years before our aunt's farm was sorted out. We're just now beginning to get some money from it.
Neighbors can be so funny. We just completed a new driveway, walkway, curbing, and lighting up the hill to our house. My neighbor across the street came over during the project. His first question was, "Who died?" I laughed and said, "When we get the new SUV, you'll want to know how much we got."
Driver mentioned a respectful waiting period to begin spending the money. At our age, you don't want to wait too long. :P
Well, here is a little sales story in my feeble attempt to keep this forum up and running. I was purchasing gas for the Explorer this morning at a local convenience store. The Lexus dealer drives up to the pump beside me in a black RX 350 with gray leather interior. On the right side of the windshield are the words "2010, 0 APR for 60 months". Naturally, I had to strike up a conversation. He said that this particular car was top of the line for that model---had all of the bells and whistles. He noted that it listed for right at $38k. He offered it to me for $34k plus $4k for my Explorer. That brings it down to $30k. Too bad that I thought that it was as ugly as sin. I did, however, like the black color. After he drove away, I threw his card in the trash and proceeded down the road to my next errand. Like Driver's story, I could make it longer by describing what the dealer wore and what he was eating, but his outfit was less than appealing and his choice of candy bars was even less so. I know. It's not a very exciting story, but it's the best that I can do for now.
It's not a very exciting story, but it's the best that I can do for now.
Richard, I enjoyed your story.
I think I am a little depressed from seeing all that oil and seeing those poor creatures like Pelicans stunned and dying, and peoples livelihood and way of life destroyed. Added to that are people and countries ganging up on a little country that just wants to protect it's borders. Plus a little old lady news reporter 89 years old, who has so much hate she can't even contain her remarks in an interview.
We need more sales stories like yours to take our mind off of what is going on. Thank you for making me smile today.
I've been having second thoughts about retiring lately. I miss the people I work with among other things
Hang in there isell. It takes time to adjust to retirement. You need a few activities during the week to keep you occupied. If you haven't had hobbies or interests it will take awhile. Once you get a routine and find some interests you will see that working if you don't have to is futile.
isell....you could always go to one of the highline dealerships where the "mooches" aren't as prevalent. But, then you'd have to change your name to "isellbugattis"...or, "isellbentleys". We wouldn't recognize you. :P
Mooches come in all forms. For example this Ford dealer is trying to "mooch" over $45k for a 2011 Mustang. Not a Saleen or a Roush...just a Mustang. Sure it has a V8 and is a convertible, but $45k for any Mustang is truly "mooching" and I'm willing to bet he'd call you anything but a customer to avoid selling for less.
LOL! No, it was a Kit Kat. At least he didn't wear the white shoes and white belt. He had on a faded red polo shirt and green pants---to match the candy bar? I'll be nice and assume that it was his day off.
As far as I know, the dealership isn't under obligation to offer it for MSRP, as the "S" stands for "suggested" - it's not compulsory. If a dealership knows it's worth less, they should ask for less, so they're not "mooches." Otherwise, as houdini1 indicated, the person who offers $25K is no more of a mooch than the person asking $45K.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I can appreciate your feelings about returning to work. For 40 years I worked like a dog---long hours, two jobs, etc. I didn't have time for hobbies and took very few vacations. Suddenly, here I was with all the time in the world. It was an adjustment. I did some consulting work the first four years. That was a nice transition into retirement. I made up my mind about some things: (1) Get up in the morning and dress for the day. (2) No TV during the day, except for the morning news. (3) Decide on some regular activities that I either enjoyed or that would help other people. It gradually came together. I stay busy but I take time like this to enjoy myself.
They have asked me to come back to work a couple of times. All I have to do is mention it to my wife. She gladly reminds me of many of the headaches that I had dealing with teachers, administrators, politics, bureaucracy, etc. The desire fades pretty quickly.
You'll be fine. Give it a year and see how you feel.
I agree. The news today can shake your faith in our fellow man. We do have one saving grace. As long as the world has people like the posters here, we'll survive. The sad part is that most of us won't be here long enough to correct these evils and natural disasters. I just pray that we have taught our children the right way to live. The really hard part will be in their hands. I think of people like jmonroe, explorer, gg, and others who did right by their children. That gives us hope for the future.
Well, of course. I've sold items before on sites like craigslist, and emails with ridiculous offers are always ignored. I price items fairly, with a little bit of wiggle room. The smart consumer knows how to mooch appropriately close to the line, at least enough to get the conversation started.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
WOW! Thanks for the link and for doing that configuration. I thought his "top of the line" deal sounded too good to be true. What can you expect from a dealer who eats Kit Kat bars? :P
BTW, you might check & see if the CityPass would be worthwhile for you: http://www.citypass.com/chicago The part about "skip ticket lines" might save you some time. There are some tips on public transportation as well.
I've certainly seen cars where it was stupid (IMO) to ask MSRP. In recent years most American cars and virtually all Korean cars fell into this category. Actually I suspect only a few models now would realistically fetch MSRP to anyone paying attention.
Remember when PT Cruisers first came out and they were fetching a premium? Now THAT was nuts!
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Comments
pre prom pic
Downtown Chicago is not cheap....very similar to staying in a nice part of NYC, LA or San Francisco.
Kind of sad, in my opinion.
North Carolina hangs on due to its tobacco history.
"They shouldn't even be posting!"
Add 10 years to the year that you graduated. Think about society at that time, and you'll have your answer.
Richard
It's the medical convention that week. They are all taking advantage of the situation. I would have kept the reservations at Hyatt Regency, but they didn't have a room for Saturday night of any kind. At least we'll only be there to shower and sleep. The manager said that it had been redone recently. Since GG has stayed there, I'm sure that it will be fine.
Snake, I know what you mean. For $500, I could have had a nice ocean front room at the beach for a three night weekend. Still, this is a special event for my sister and brother-in-law. We'll enjoy the trip. After all, how often do we get to Chicago?
Richard
Wine, women, and song---I thought that I covered it pretty well. I may have missed out on how to field strip a cigarette, but I did strip a few other things. :P
Richard
And you were probably a Southern gentleman when you did like please before you started and thank you when you finished.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Tyler Anderson/ National Post
In a ruling making the rounds of legal circles, Justice Joseph W. Quinn of St. Catharines eviscerates a used car dealer, saying his explanations were "incoherent twaddle" and "fell somewhere between a yarn and a fairy tale"
CommentsTwitterFacebookLinked InDiggRedditBuzzEmailAdrian Humphreys, National Post · Sunday, Jun. 6, 2010
In what appears to be an annual start-of-summer ritual, an Ontario judge has issued a decision annotated with amusing and scathing footnotes that, one suspects, reflect the dark, witty thoughts and secret exasperation judges sequester during court.
In a 27-page written ruling released last month, Justice Joseph W. Quinn of St. Catharines, eviscerates a used car dealer, calling the defendant "unblinkingly dishonest," adding: "I feel somewhat responsible for this as I must have done or said something during the trial that caused [him] to believe that I was dim-witted."
After listening to the car dealer, he concludes the court was "up to its sash in falsehoods."
"By the end of the trial, if [he] were to have testified that the world was round, I would immediately have sought membership in the Flat Earth Society."
But really, that was just the beginning.
"It definitely took me by surprise," said Norman Epstein, a Toronto lawyer who represented Gurnek Singh, the Brampton, car dealer who was the defendant in the case.
Local lawyers, however, are not so surprised -- although quite tickled--at the oft-times acerbic, sarcastic and hilarious passages of the ruling. Several times before, often around this time of year, Judge Quinn has issued similarly styled rulings that dispel wit as well as wisdom.
"I'm not surprised by it," said a local lawyer who did not wish to be named. "He is very bright and has a good wit about him. He's a good writer," the lawyer said.
Copies of the ruling, Pirbhai v. Singh et al, 2010 ONSC 2446, have started to make their way around legal circles by email.
"I look forward to them," said another lawyer. "He can certainly write an entertaining judgment," offered a third.
The problem under litigation in this case started much as Judge Quinn's ruling does: "A friend of a friend is not necessarily your friend."
Back in 1999, Kalimuddin Pirbhai, a St. Catharines doctor, wanted to buy a used luxury car and a friend said he had a friend who could get him a deal. Dr. Pirbhai contacted Mr. Singh, who owns both Sarwan Auto Sales and Brampton Auto Collision. Both of those companies, Judge Quinn writes, "loosely, very loosely, carries on the business that its name implies."
Dr. Pirbhai's relationship with Mr. Singh quickly declined after a string of broken promises, large financial demands and shoddy and unsafe repairs on a Lexus sedan.
"Ten years, and 31 days of trial, later, that transaction is finally completed. The plaintiff ended up with an expensive bargain," Judge Quinn writes.
The car delivered -- vastly over budget--was "something of an automotive Frankenstein," writes Judge Quinn. It "swayed, swerved, wobbled and emitted unusual noises."
The judge was singularly unimpressed by Mr. Singh. "He shows no aptitude for the truth; he is without a conscience; he is incorrigible," he writes in the introduction to his ruling, then annotating that passage with the first of 17 footnotes: "Singh should not be permitted to conduct any commercial business in the Province of Ontario that brings him into contact with members of the public."
Judge Quinn writes that one explanation by Mr. Singh was "incoherent twaddle," another "fell somewhere between a yarn and a fairy tale." Mr. Singh displayed an "unlimited capacity for fraud and deception" and practised "splendid skullduggery."
Judge Quinn calls him: "a devious man and an unbelievable witness who will do or say anything to advance his position. He was maddeningly unwilling to respond to the simplest of questions and often had to be asked the same question over and over (no doubt using the time gained to visit his pantry of untruthful answers.)"
After buying a badly damaged Lexus at an automobile auction for Dr. Pirbhai in 1999, Mr. Singh promised to fix it to "showroom condition" for another $5,000, court heard.
Mr. Singh overcharged for the original auction price by close to $6,000, overcharged on quoted repairs by more than $11,235, then released a car that needed another $15,565 to have someone else fix the "repairs" to make the car safe, court heard.
"It is not enough to describe his conduct in this regard as being negligent: it was fraudulent, and, grossly so," writes Judge Quinn.
He added that Mr. Singh's sloppy conduct meant the dealer could not shift personal liability onto his corporate entities, with the judge writing: "The corporate veil here was more of a bandit's mask."
Judge Quinn ordered Mr. Singh to pay $33,465.77 in addition to $50,000 in punitive damages.
The lawyers for Mr. Singh and Dr. Pirbhai declined to comment.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Richard
I'm not immune to writing tomes when I relay my car buying experiences here. But, this story really exceeded even what I could write.
To sum up, an unscrupulous car dealer ran into a guy who was as cheap as cheap could get (buying a wrecked car to fix up and perhaps save a nickel in the process). They agreed to do a deal. It cost more than the buyer anticipated. And, the dealer charged more than he probably should have.
That's about it, right?
Good comments GG.
*It was in Monday's paper and they do need to fill out a Monday newspaper.
*I could have condensed the story, but I was too lazy to do that today.
*The story wasn't the best, but at least it I thought it might be good to bring things around to the topic once in awhile.
*Don't get me wrong, I read all the emails and enjoy them. I am learning alot about Chicago and how to quit smoking etc. No problem, I just thought it was time to insert a sales story, even if a bit weak.
Someone might check out this sight and wonder what is going on!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Still, 235.00! I must REALLY be out of touch with reality!
Funny, in my humble neighborhood, you can always tell when someone has come into some money. Case in point, the family that lives directly across from me has about 1.5 acres of land behind their house. I always mentioned that they could put in a pool and a tennis court in that space, and still have land left over.
Well....while I didn't know the wife's parents, I did know she was an only child and that both parents had recently passed (Father in January, Mother in March). It's tragic that the wife lost her parents so close to one another. I guess the will was dispersed (the Father had been a retired president of a large local machine tool company). But, last week, here comes the excavators and the pool installation company.
Yesterday, the husband came over to show me his NEW Mercedes E 550 (REALLY nice car).
Yes, but can you now perform brain surgery or any other previously unimaginable feats as their TV commercials suggest?
Gogiboy
Well, it is a sales story! What a way to get an E 550! I am not sure what a respectable amount of time would be before rushing off to buy the E, but the Mother died in March, takes awhile to sort out the will, a bit of time to order the car.
My guess is they didn't wait too long.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Neighbors can be so funny. We just completed a new driveway, walkway, curbing, and lighting up the hill to our house. My neighbor across the street came over during the project. His first question was, "Who died?" I laughed and said, "When we get the new SUV, you'll want to know how much we got."
Driver mentioned a respectful waiting period to begin spending the money. At our age, you don't want to wait too long. :P
Richard
Richard
They used to wonder; by now they know.
Richard
Richard
So, I spent a few minutes in the Prices Paid Forums and much of my misgivings faded away. I do NOT miss the mooches!
Richard, I enjoyed your story.
I think I am a little depressed from seeing all that oil and seeing those poor creatures like Pelicans stunned and dying, and peoples livelihood and way of life destroyed. Added to that are people and countries ganging up on a little country that just wants to protect it's borders. Plus a little old lady news reporter 89 years old, who has so much hate she can't even contain her remarks in an interview.
We need more sales stories like yours to take our mind off of what is going on.
Thank you for making me smile today.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Hang in there isell. It takes time to adjust to retirement. You need a few activities during the week to keep you occupied. If you haven't had hobbies or interests it will take awhile. Once you get a routine and find some interests you will see that working if you don't have to is futile.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
link title
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
uhh, now you got me curious. What kind of candy bar was he eating? With the 0 APR... I bet it was a "Zero" candy bar. :sick:
Ford Motor Company put the MSRP on that car, not the dealer.
The MARKET will determine if it's worth that much. If a person doesn't like that price, they can just walk away or they can offer less.
My Gawd! 45,000 for a MUSTANG!!??
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
LOL! No, it was a Kit Kat. At least he didn't wear the white shoes and white belt. He had on a faded red polo shirt and green pants---to match the candy bar? I'll be nice and assume that it was his day off.
Richard
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They have asked me to come back to work a couple of times. All I have to do is mention it to my wife. She gladly reminds me of many of the headaches that I had dealing with teachers, administrators, politics, bureaucracy, etc. The desire fades pretty quickly.
You'll be fine. Give it a year and see how you feel.
Richard
I built an actual top of the line AWD RX and it came in at $54,189 w/delivery.
Richard
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2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Richard
I'm guessing there is probably about a 2500-3500 profit in that car if it sells for MSRP.
And I have no idea how hot these cars are. If they are selling faster than the dealers can get them in, why discount them? Would you?
On the other hand if the are slow movers it'll take a deep discount to get someone to take one.
I still can't believe a 45,000 MSRP!
Using this Mustang as an example. Let's suppose the dealer's cost was 41,500.
Of course he wold love to sell it for MSRP and gross 3500.00 on it.
But, the market isn't strong at all so he advertises it for 43,000.
He has invested 41,500 in a product that he is hoping to make 1500.00.
Sound reasnoble?
Now, most people would still offere less. Not a problem and expected in this business. This doesn't make the shopper a mooch.
That term is applied to the shopper who just go's too far. They pull every trick in the book, spring their trade in's at the last minute etc.
Having said that, I don't think I used that term five times in my 14 years.
Big difference between a "Smart Shopper" and a person who go's too far.
Why is a dealer "stupid" for asking MSRP?
Does everything have to be discounted in order to sell?
Maybe that is the market on these. I don't know.
I do know I sure wouldn't want one that bad but others may?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You can believe the sticker on the window.
This one is a V-8 loaded with what appears to be everything including NAVI.
45,000 seems nuts but they cojuld be selling well. Again, I have no idea.
For that car I don't know that it is.
I've certainly seen cars where it was stupid (IMO) to ask MSRP. In recent years most American cars and virtually all Korean cars fell into this category. Actually I suspect only a few models now would realistically fetch MSRP to anyone paying attention.
Remember when PT Cruisers first came out and they were fetching a premium? Now THAT was nuts!